Playing a Bard, when Im bad at roleplaying

[Chaosticket]

I found a 5th edition group that might be able to work with my bad schedule (I work noon-nights 4-5 days a week). I hope to have some fun, build a relationship, and eventually play different tabletop games with new friends.

I looked it over and I found a Bard, a class I could like mechanically under 5th edition rules. However I dont think I could play the "typical" Bard. I thought about a Musical Bounty Hunter, specifically based on Western films. Guitar or Harmonica as instruments/magical focuses, Stetson, Duster, and a Hand Crossbow held like a Revolver.

Also, I heard about 5th edition Mordern. Any information on that?

[JNAProductions]

You don't have to stick to the generic fluff. If you work with your DM, you can easily refluff it to be more like a Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock... Just keeping the Bard mechanics.

What would you roleplay best?

[Thrudd]

Role play in 3rd person- describe the sort of thing you want your character to say, how you think they would act (suave or witty or charming or whatever), the effect you're hoping to fet with the interaction (get them to trust me, put them off guard, confuse them, etc) and then let the DM and the dice decide how it goes.

[Joe the Rat]

Bards make awesome scholars. They know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about... not quite as many things.

You could be a writer, akin to Volothamp, or perhaps someone more reputable. You are looking for knowledge, and using some of that knowledge (magic) to adventure. Sage or Cloistered Scholar, or even Archaeologist will set you up well. Those instrument proficiencies? Musical training is part of a classical education.

Speaking of archaeologists, get your Henry Jones Junior on and go raiding tombs. Your skills focus more towards oratory than performance.

Or gods save us, you could be a poet. Quite fitting for College of Valor.

[Draken]

You could just be a historian, rather than a poet or musician. 5th ed fluff puts bard magic as a subset of truenaming anyway, you could just run with that if you aren't sure you can be an orc banging the ol' war drums on the back of a kodo and chucking the ocasional handaxe.

[Chaosticket]

Its difficult to make a Bard bad at skills. I made mine a Variant Human with 6 skill proficiencies at level 1, and with Jack of All Trades, Expertise, and maybe College of Lore will make it even better.

For combat and magic Im worried they will be heavily underutilized. Unless I pick up College of Valor and combat feats like Crossbow Expert Ill be completely ineffective in combat quickly. Vicious Mockery isnt exactly a Sound Cannon.

5th edition magic doesnt have anywhere near as many Spells Per Day or wide as effects as I would like so I that I wouldnt have to use physical attacks. Should I Multiclass as a Warlock for Eldritch Blast and Invocations?

Is the initial idea of a roleplaying and mechanical parts of this character going to fade and just end up being a Skillmonkey there to roll checks?

[dragoeniex]

What level are you coming in at? And which of the effects do you actually like the idea of?

College of swords bards and college of whisper bards are good considerations to add atop valor if you're looking to toss more martial in.

Bard is my favorite class I've played to-date, and you'd be surprised at how much you can work with some of those cantrip options. Or how your spells can swing a fight without outright damage. I'll fully admit my favorite parts of the class are the social and battle controller aspects, though.

For damage: Shatter comes online relatively early and is a decent AoE against enemies, fantastic for breaking things/walls/etc in your way. Heat metal will never not ruin the day of any opponent in armor or carrying a big, metal signature weapon. Vicious mockery doesn't dole much damage, but the disadvantage on an enemy's next attack can make a huge difference when you're fighting something big- a solid cantrip! If you don't go with one of the three more melee-friendly bard options, lore bard will give you choice of any two spells third level and under when you hit lv 6.

The roleplay is easily one of my favorite parts, but that's a playstyle preference. Tossing inspiration on a bud or other bardly mechanics are fun on their own too.

And just for the record, your idea of a Western-themed bard sounds plenty good to me. Playing your own spaghetti Western showdown music on a harmonica? A+ stuff right there.

[KillingTime]

If you're genuinely worried about how much damage you're likely to deal then Bard may not be the class for you.
In combat, Bards are almost entirely about battlefield control rather than aiming for big damage effects. But a well placed Bard spell or two can completely shut down a combat far more effectively than even big flashy spells like fireball.
Vicious Mockery is much more about the disadvantage rider than it is about the damage. Likewise with Dissonant Whispers or Heat Metal, the damage is nice, but the control features are actually more important.
And then of course, OUT of combat, the Bard will really shine.

So don't worry about multiclassing to grab a dps spell. You can be extremely effective without, and all you're doing is slowing down your spell progression and distracting yourself with a role that is better performed by other members of the party. Concentrate on what you're good at and you'll love the Bard in a very short time.

[Snivlem]

There is no need to worry about your combat potential. As long as you pick spells for it, bards do very well in the average combat.

If I understand your first post correctly, you are worried about playing a verbal and social character when you are not very good at that yourself. I would talk to your DM about this: Ask him (or her) if he is okay with you describing what your character does instead of roleplaying it out: "I will try to persuade him that I'm the kings cousin" or "I flirt and will try to seduce her" instead of actually RPing those scenes. If the DM and the group is ok with that, you don't have a problem. If they don't like that, just build a different concept and don't pick the social skills. In addition to what is already listed in this thread, you could choose to play a shy musician, who is really talented, and probably good looking (or at least friendly looking) but shy and socially awkward, and who chooses to let his music "do the talking" for him.

The possibilities are endless. Your bard needs a high charisma, but that doesn't mean he have to be out-going and excellent at the social skills. You won't suck at any of the social skills, but that just means that when you actually do say something, it will carry weight, it doesn't mean you have to be the face of the party. The bard, as most classes in 5th edition, is very open-ended. You don't even need the performance skill or to carry a musical instrument (even if you get profency in the latter for free). You can easily carry a component pouch and RP as a wizard or sorcerer.

You could also ask your DM if he will let you play a bard with intelligence as casting stat. By most standards, it would be a nerf rather than a boost to the class.

[Chaosticket]

Id honestly function much better as a Pathfinder Wizard.

I still dont understand the rhythm of 5th edition. As a Pathfinder Bard I know a lot of spells, skills, and Songs to help the party. They dont function that similar in 5th.

Thanks for the advice.

[GlenSmash!]

As a Pathfinder Bard I know a lot of spells, skills, and Songs to help the party. They dont function that similar in 5th..

In my experience that's exactly how 5E Bards function.

They know as many spells as any other class but the Wizard, have lots of skill profiiciencies and even expertise, and Bardic Inspiration is a great boon to the party. Plus Cantrips work all day every day.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Playing a lore bard is basically like being a rogue out of combat and an enchanter wizard in combat. Out of combat, you're proficient or half-proficient with all the skills and can have expertise in two of them. You're a Cha caster, so you should have excellent Deception and Persuasion, and you can use your Expertise in Stealth and Perception to be a scout if you were so inclined. Anything you want to do out of combat is open to you.

In combat, you're leaning heavily on charm-style and control-style spells. Phantasmal force is an Int save and can do essentially anything; targeting Int saves is typically pretty powerful. Once it affects something, it takes an action and an Int check (not a save!) to break free from. Suggestion and enemies abound can both create massive swings in fights as well. Fear or hypnotic pattern can render whole groups of enemies basically helpless, and sleep is the best spell for level 1-3 play. You also have access to healing word and cure wounds, so you can be a main healer. Cutting Words prevents damage, since you can use it on damage or attack rolls, and Bardic Inspiration transforms -5/+10 swings from misses to hits. Eventually you can start picking up powerful damage spells, if that's what floats your boat. Fireball is a common level 6 Magical Secrets pick, and synaptic static is on the bard list and really strong. You're also the best or second-best user of dispel magic and counterspell.

So in combat, your job boils down to one of two things: get rid of the mooks, or lock down the biggest and dumbest of the big dumb fighters.

[Chaosticket]

Its still a question if this is out of my league. Im not interested enough in acting to disregard mechanical problems and picking a class that is more involved at roleplaying than others just seems like a disaster in waiting. As soon as a mechanical problem shows up in games my Mask drops and I rarely regain it. I could never act professionally.

Maybe it would be possible, but I doubt I would ever use any limited use abilities when 4-22 different spells usable 1-3 times per day each. In other games regaining mana or stamina after fights would be relatively simple. Here it would be a long rest (8 hours) after basically every fight or dont use the abilities you cant recover after a Short Rest.

All i would be doing is waiting for skill checks and Cantrips. There is no 5th edition class for me. This is why Ive been avoiding 5th for so long.

[JNAProductions]

Its still a question if this is out of my league. Im not interested enough in acting to disregard mechanical problems and picking a class that is more involved at roleplaying than others just seems like a disaster in waiting. As soon as a mechanical problem shows up in games my Mask drops and I rarely regain it. I could never act professionally.

Maybe it would be possible, but I doubt I would ever use any limited use abilities when 4-22 different spells usable 1-3 times per day each. In other games regaining mana or stamina after fights would be relatively simple. Here it would be a long rest (8 hours) after basically every fight or dont use the abilities you cant recover after a Short Rest.

All i would be doing is waiting for skill checks and Cantrips. There is no 5th edition class for me. This is why Ive been avoiding 5th for so long.

Have you tried 4th edition? That might be more up your ally-but even then, there are Daily powers that you can't just spam.

[Thrudd]

Its still a question if this is out of my league. Im not interested enough in acting to disregard mechanical problems and picking a class that is more involved at roleplaying than others just seems like a disaster in waiting. As soon as a mechanical problem shows up in games my Mask drops and I rarely regain it. I could never act professionally.

Maybe it would be possible, but I doubt I would ever use any limited use abilities when 4-22 different spells usable 1-3 times per day each. In other games regaining mana or stamina after fights would be relatively simple. Here it would be a long rest (8 hours) after basically every fight or dont use the abilities you cant recover after a Short Rest.

All i would be doing is waiting for skill checks and Cantrips. There is no 5th edition class for me. This is why Ive been avoiding 5th for so long.
Isn't that how magic has always worked in D&D? A finite number of spells cast roughly once per day- you use them strategically rather than blowing them all in one encounter, unless it's a big fight and you know you'll be resting afterward. What were you playing before? D&D has never had mana or stamina, and even spell point variants needed a full night's rest to recover them. Unless you mean 4e at-will (5e cantrips) and encounter (short rest) powers.

A 3e wizard would not be any different- spells require a night's rest and studying to re-charge, plus you have no at-will cantrips.

[Snivlem]

and picking a class that is more involved at roleplaying than others just seems like a disaster in waiting.

There's nothing about the bard that makes it more involved at roleplaying at the others, especially not at the price of mechanics, as you seem to imply.


Here it would be a long rest (8 hours) after basically every fight or dont use the abilities you cant recover after a Short Rest.



Err... no it's not.

I'm sorry, but it is really hard to wrap my head around what your problem with the class actually is.

First it was RP, then it was combat potential and now it seems to be resource managament. In your first post you said the bard was the class you liked mechanically from 5th edition, but you were worried about the RP, but now you seem to dislike everything about how it works mechanically.

You also seem to like pathfinder, but casters there are as dependent on resource management as in 5e. You like the pf bard, but they are half the casters of what 5e bards are. If you ask me, 5e bard is a far more satisfactory class to play compared to pf bard.

If you don't want to worry about resource management, then the classes you should play are either fighter or rogue. Warlocks also get by with very little resource management, if you want to play a spell caster.

If the problem is that you don't wanna play 5e, then I suggest that you don't play 5e.

[JNAProductions]

There's nothing about the bard that makes it more involved at roleplaying at the others, especially not at the price of mechanics, as you seem to imply.

Err... no it's not.

I'm sorry, but it is really hard to wrap my head around what your problem with the class actually is.

First it was RP, then it was combat potential and now it seems to be resource managament. In your first post you said the bard was the class you liked mechanically from 5th edition, but you were worried about the RP, but now you seem to dislike everything about how it works mechanically.

You also seem to like pathfinder, but casters there are as dependent on resource management as in 5e. You like the pf bard, but they are half the casters of what 5e bards are. If you ask me, 5e bard is a far more satisfactory class to play compared to pf bard.

If you don't want to worry about resource management, then the classes you should play are either fighter or rogue. Warlocks also get by with very little resource management, if you want to play a spell caster.

Rogue 19/Monk 1 is the only truly at-will build in 5E. (Assuming you don't pick Arcane Trickster.)

And, while I'd definitely rather go Rogue 20 than add in a level of Monk, the Rogue is a pretty fun class to play without anything in the way of resource management.

[Chaosticket]

I dont know what to do with reduced tools and Rests as a limiter. In other games I would look for ways to increase those limits so having 30-60 spells per day or just having round after round of support powers.

[Thrudd]

I dont know what to do with reduced tools and Rests as a limiter. In other games I would look for ways to increase those limits so having 30-60 spells per day or just having round after round of support powers.

Those things generally require a GM to cooperate with giving you magic items to help you do that, and to generally be very lenient or house rule. It is far beyond what any D&D game is designed to accommodate, unless you're in system-breaking epic levels. The best way is to revise your expectations according to the game being played, and formulate strategies and tactics according to the game's rules. You've got your powers and spells, you know their limits and uses, figure out how best to use them. You don't go into chess thinking "all my pieces should move like the queen. I hate how limited my options are in this game." I mean, assuming you want to play chess, that approach will not be productive.

[Snivlem]

I dont know what to do with reduced tools and Rests as a limiter. In other games I would look for ways to increase those limits so having 30-60 spells per day or just having round after round of support powers.

I don't know what games you are playing where you will need 30-60 spells per day... Anyway: It is not doable. But round after round of support powers is very doable... Bards have vicious mockery (and valor/swords bards have their weapons), but I'm guessing that's not good enough for you. Other full casters have cantrips that do more damage, if that's more satisfactory. Warlocks, in particular, have good at will damage. Any martial class can swing their weapons whenever they want. Rogues and fighters have no/very little limits on their resources at all. I'm still not seing your problem, unless you for some reason are determined to play a bard despite not liking either the fluff nor the mechanics... Your solution is obviously: Don't play a bard. If you, despite your initial post, actually crave for the bard fluff, just play a warlock with the entertainer background.

[Chaosticket]

Maybe I should just bring a puppet. Let other people tell me what they want. There arent enough spells and especially Inspiration points to do anything on impulse or to help with every problem.

[dragoeniex]

Maybe I should just bring a puppet. Let other people tell me what they want. There arent enough spells and especially Inspiration points to do anything on impulse or to help with every problem.

I disagree. Especially if you can reach level 5, where all your inspiration starts refreshing on short rests. I've been burning impulse spells on roleplay moments since lv 4-ish and probably would have even before. That's where my campaign started, so bit biased on resources here, but I've started as a lv 1 full caster before too. It's a mentality of prioritization, y'know? Do I think it's worth burning a slot for a fun moment?

Most of the time, yeah. And it stops mattering as much as you level and get more room to be spell-happy.

For cantrips, minor illusion and prestidigitation are great ones for impulse use. These can screw with NPCs in fun ways or be outright effective in serious moments. Favorite way to use minor illusion? Sound. Toss a ragged breathing noise on a fallen enemy corpse nearby once in a while, see if one of his compatriots will come over to check on him. Make a whistling sound the opposite direction you're about to go to make the guard dog look left. Etc.

Prestidigitation is a bit harder to weaponize (at least for me), but it's always fun to angrily soil the back of someone's jacket as they swan away from an argument.

Parties I've been in who have bards seem to love having bards. It's a role you definitely feel the presence of.

That said, if you're still having major reservations about roleplay, power, and utility, I agree you might want to look at another class. The casters aren't for everyone, after all, and you don't have to like the idea of being one. Sounded like you did in the first post, though?

A martial character won't be able to break encounters in bursts as much but will be consistently pretty solid. Rogues and fighters can even dip into magic a bit with their subclass, if you want mostly martial with a taste of the arcane.

No character is immune from hitting the "running on fumes" point. But in my experience, players getting creative after that point are the most memorable moments no matter what class you are.

[Thrudd]

There arent enough spells and especially Inspiration points to do anything on impulse or to help with every problem.

There never is. There is no reason to expect there would be. The spellcaster's role in D&D is to know better than everyone else when it is the right time to use your spells to maximum effect. You don't just throw spells at everything. In D&D, many problems just need swords and arrows in their face, and you contribute to solving those problems, too.

[Chaosticket]

in 5th sure. There are missing bonus spells, traits, feats and so on to increase the uses of abilities. So while I can get one Bard to 54 spells per day, 60 spells known, and 54 Inspirations the other is um...very 5th edition.

So I dont know how to work around all the 1 Hour resting after every challenge thing. Rolling skill checks is one thing, but when Inspire is just a handful of times, can it actually be that helpful? Some abilities just dont scale and its one of them. Inspire is contingent on not needing any more than a few rolls. One round of combat would render it totally useless when you get people making up to 10 attacks per round. Thats also the reason why Vicious Mockery is iffy. It only works on one attack per round.

I dont know what to do with all these low-efficiency abilities. I went from helping my whole team with stacking group buffs to struggling to help with single checks. Im just a rollplayer trying to be a good teammate and I wont be able to do anything regularly but skill checks. Or maybe I should just be a Thug that kills things to help the team. Id probably be sleeping (incharacter and out) between fights, but I wouldnt have a problem with trying to get my character to work as intended.

[JNAProductions]

It really sounds like you just want 3rd edition and the guano crazy shenanigans you can pull in that.

Which is fine-but if that's the case... Why are you playing 5E?

[JNAProductions]

Well, Chaos, if you don't have fun, don't play.

You don't seem to like roleplaying, so that's not an incentive to play.
You don't like 5th's mechanics, so that's not an incentive to play.

So unless these are friends who you enjoy hanging out with regardless of what you're doing... Why play?

[Chaosticket]

Just read the top. Only groups that play in person near me are 5th. Only way I can play tabletop games is to play 5th and hope people will play other games after a point. Im trying to like 5th but the people that made 5th edition made it to hurt me as much as possible.

[JNAProductions]

Just read the top. Only groups that play in person near me are 5th. Only way I can play tabletop games is to play 5th and hope people will play other games after a point. Im trying to like 5th but the people that made 5th edition made it to hurt me as much as possible.

No gaming is better than bad gaming. For you, 5th edition is bad gaming.

Just let them know you're interested if they want to try 3E or PF, but politely decline to play in their 5th game.

[Snivlem]

So I dont know how to work around all the 1 Hour resting after every challenge thing.



. Id probably be sleeping (incharacter and out) between fights, but I wouldnt have a problem with trying to get my character to work as intended.

Wow.
I will give you one advice. Dont show up to the game if you are sticking with that attitude. You are clearly determined not to like the game and you are making up problems in your head that dont excist. You wont have fun and you certainly wont make the game more fun for the rest of the group and you probably wont make new friends with that attitude to game they are playing.

If you can somehow change your attitude, here is what i think you should do:

-If you want more spell slots, play a wizard or a land druid.
- if you want to play a caster and want good at will damage, play a warlock.
- If you want to play play a martial that dosent worry about resource management, and is good with skills as well, play a rogue.

[Chaosticket]

When being Assertive is unavailable, then I go to passive. From Middle-man to follower.

I could play a Pathfinder Bard as I heavily worked on the character to be both something I could use for myself and very much help the team, a Battle Bard. I worked on damage, defense, spells, skills, and support. So I was Assertive and Supportive, not passive.

So how do I become that in 5th?

I think Ill just have level 1 spells in every slot using higher levels. If I do that at least Ill have a lot of uses of few abilities. Is that how to play 5th edition?

[JNAProductions]

No, 5th edition (as a caster like a Bard) is generally played by being careful with your resources. Don't drop a Haste when you're 5th level when the fight is three goblins herding some cows. (Don't even drop a Bless. It's not worth it.) But when you're up against Goblin Boss Mukgrag, then use Haste on the Barbarian so he can go to town.

Likewise, be frugal with your Inspiration. If you go Valor Bard, use it to negate a high-damage attack or save someone near 0 HP.

But again-it really just sounds like you don't like 5th Edition. So don't play it-no one is going to have their playing experience enhanced by someone being at the table who's only there begrudgingly.

[Snivlem]

I think Ill just have level 1 spells in every slot using higher levels. If I do that at least Ill have a lot of uses of few abilities. Is that how to play 5th edition?

No, not at all. I am beginning to think you have misunderstood something, because I can see no way how one would think that would be a good approach using the rules for 5e. Why would you think that would be a good approach?

Apart from inspire courage - which is pretty much the definition of a passive ability - what exactly did your PF bard have that you can't achieve with 5e?

Why are you determined to play a bard when you obviously don't like the mechanics?

[Unoriginal]

First: Bard doesn't require more roleplay than any other class.


Second: aren't you the guy who made that thread about wanting to be an OP sniper who could kill anything in one shot?

[BaconAwesome]

Bard is super flexible. I've always thought a bard would make a great thief/con artist character (with a heart of gold if you want to play CG).

[Chaosticket]

I looked up "powergamer" on 1d4chan just to remind me of what I am. I liked the at-will Mutant Superpowers from older editions.

Do I even like fantasy games? Im a science fiction fan. In other games there are enough special powers to make things worth playing even if you dont like the setting. I play solo fantasy RPGs often. Ive read about people making parody RPGs but all in 3.5.

Im just trying to be friendly and helpful at the table, while hoping I can find groups that would be interested in other games. Its at a gateway game to find people. 5th edition is too mundane to be enjoyable. I was hoping I could find a way to make short rests abilities better, then i just realized I was hoping for superpowers like an "Aura of Inspiration".

[the secret fire]

As a person who despises the default aesthetic of the bard, I can tell you from experience that you can throw out all that nonsense about them leading singsongs in the middle of melee if you want to. He doesn't need a frikkin harmonica just because he's a Bard. He should be good at performing in some capacity, but he doesn't have to turn every encounter into a goddamned music video.

Just think of the classes as big bags of abilities, and ignore the tropes associated with them.

[Unoriginal]

I looked up "powergamer" on 1d4chan just to remind me of what I am. I liked the at-will Mutant Superpowers from older editions.

Do I even like fantasy games? Im a science fiction fan. In other games there are enough special powers to make things worth playing even if you dont like the setting. I play solo fantasy RPGs often. Ive read about people making parody RPGs but all in 3.5.

Im just trying to be friendly and helpful at the table, while hoping I can find groups that would be interested in other games. Its at a gateway game to find people. 5th edition is too mundane to be enjoyable. I was hoping I could find a way to make short rests abilities better, then i just realized I was hoping for superpowers like an "Aura of Inspiration".

Have you considered playing a Paladin?

[BaconAwesome]

I looked up "powergamer" on 1d4chan just to remind me of what I am. I liked the at-will Mutant Superpowers from older editions.

Do I even like fantasy games? Im a science fiction fan. In other games there are enough special powers to make things worth playing even if you dont like the setting. I play solo fantasy RPGs often. Ive read about people making parody RPGs but all in 3.5.

Im just trying to be friendly and helpful at the table, while hoping I can find groups that would be interested in other games. Its at a gateway game to find people. 5th edition is too mundane to be enjoyable. I was hoping I could find a way to make short rests abilities better, then i just realized I was hoping for superpowers like an "Aura of Inspiration".

IMHO, joining a 5e group when you don't like 5e is asking for disappointment - it would be better to try to find something you like in 5e and play that. If you played some out there race and class combo, would that make things more interesting for you?

[the secret fire]

IMHO, joining a 5e group when you don't like 5e is asking for disappointment - it would be better to try to find something you like in 5e and play that. If you played some out there race and class combo, would that make things more interesting for you?

I mean...he's pretty straightforward about the fact that he's a powergamer, and 5e was designed to be quite difficult to power game (other than just, you know rolling a Wizard...or a Bard?). To a certain extent, his frustration is an advertisement for the soundness of 5e's design. Powergamers hate it! Find out the seven little ways you can no longer break the game in D&D 5th edition.

[Chaosticket]

Ive never broken a game. So that isnt exactly a solid basis. Its boring to not have any powers. If you wanted to curtail magic, thats accomplished. If you wanted to take out excitement?

There arent enough passive abilities to make classes unique from each other. They didnt just hurt magic, they just hurt any fun powers. What is there to even do if almost all your powers are on hour long "cooldown timers"? I didnt think about how boring a fantasy game would be until someone took out all the fantasy. Without powers it comes down to about 2 things, hacking skill checks and slashing enemies.

Wow that makes the most boring game FOR munchkins ever. I need to go play a superhero game or something.

How to players make boring games interesting? I usually just worked on my character, helped others, and made friends until people moved away due to jobs and other real life difficulties. My fun is now just helping others.

[GlenSmash!]

New players are considered a much better market that Powergamers.

I's part of the reason why 5e is so much more popular and successful than previous editions.

If it doesn't interest you that's ok.

[BaconAwesome]

I didn't mean to be confrontational - I just thought that if you want to play 5e, maybe pick something that would be the most fun option for you and still let you work with the other players.

I'm kind of an optimizer myself, but I still really enjoy the game - I like the tactical problem of how to use my tools and the party's most effectively.

Bard isn't bad for that, since you get a grab bag of tools, many of them awesome, but you can always go for something like aarokocra monk just to have a weirder grab bag. And even if role playing isn't your favorite thing, maybe you can come up with a character interesting enough to you that it's at least palatable.

[Snivlem]

Ive never broken a game. So that isnt exactly a solid basis. Its boring to not have any powers. If you wanted to curtail magic, thats accomplished. If you wanted to take out excitement?

There arent enough passive abilities to make classes unique from each other. They didnt just hurt magic, they just hurt any fun powers. What is there to even do if almost all your powers are on hour long "cooldown timers"? I didnt think about how boring a fantasy game would be until someone took out all the fantasy. Without powers it comes down to about 2 things, hacking skill checks and slashing enemies.

Wow that makes the most boring game FOR munchkins ever. I need to go play a superhero game or something.

How to players make boring games interesting? I usually just worked on my character, helped others, and made friends until people moved away due to jobs and other real life difficulties. My fun is now just helping others.

Here's a quick comaparison:
Lvl 5, bard, pathfinder (assuming 18 chr.): You have 5 1.st level spells and 3 2. level spells. Bardic performance is 8 rounds a day. You know 7 spells and have 6 cantrips. Pathfinder cantrips do stuff like d3 damage. You could probably add some cool stuff with feats. You will need Feats do do a lot of tings you can do in 5e fot free (like attacking with dexterity)

Lvl 5, bard, 5e (assuming 18 chr). You have 4 1st level spells, 3 2., 2 3rd level. Bardic inspiration is 4x nr. of shorts rest per day, at average around 12. You know 8 spells and have 3 cantrips. VIcious mockery does 2d4 dmg + rider. If you pick, say, magic initiate as a feat, you will have cantrips that do 2d10 dmg or 2d8+ rider at will, and another spell slot/known. You also have ritual casting. If you pick the ritual caster feat you can learn like 20 new spells and cast them without using slots.

What am I missing? As I've said before, I am really not seeing your grief compared to pathfinder. Inspire courage is of course better than bardic inspiration/cutting words, but so is having 2 more 3rd level spells rather than 1 more 1st level spell.

[Joe the Rat]

Solution: If you're on a computer, play online. Roll20 and FantasyGrounds are the two prime fields - I'd suggest Roll20 because there's no cost outlays to be a player. And you can find people playing Pathfinder (or perhaps Mutants and Masterminds would be more your speed).

On what bards can do to support all the damn time:
- your day-to-day helper is Help. Assist a player and let him roll 2d20 to succeed. A support action, that happens to not require a spell. You can even use this in combat if you are willing to get close to an opponent.
- for a little dipping (Cleric), Feat usage (Magic Initiate) or use of Secrets, the Guidance cantrip is an unlimited "here's an extra d4 to your roll" ability. if you are used to having several dozen +1 to +5 as you level boosters, here's a bigger punch.
- vicious mockery is your at-will screw up the other guy's next attack with a damage rider that scales with level bracket. This is what you use all the time, if you decide not to actually hit something.
- friends is essentially Jedi Mind Trick
- light and a sling: make the target visible, not the party.

[dragoeniex]

For the record, expertise in social stats are their own at-will super power. Use wisely.

[the secret fire]

Ive never broken a game. So that isnt exactly a solid basis. Its boring to not have any powers. If you wanted to curtail magic, thats accomplished. If you wanted to take out excitement?

There arent enough passive abilities to make classes unique from each other. They didnt just hurt magic, they just hurt any fun powers. What is there to even do if almost all your powers are on hour long "cooldown timers"? I didnt think about how boring a fantasy game would be until someone took out all the fantasy. Without powers it comes down to about 2 things, hacking skill checks and slashing enemies.

Wow that makes the most boring game FOR munchkins ever. I need to go play a superhero game or something.

How to players make boring games interesting? I usually just worked on my character, helped others, and made friends until people moved away due to jobs and other real life difficulties. My fun is now just helping others.

Your power fantasy goes to 11, my friend.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

There arent enough passive abilities to make classes unique from each other. They didnt just hurt magic, they just hurt any fun powers. What is there to even do if almost all your powers are on hour long "cooldown timers"? I didnt think about how boring a fantasy game would be until someone took out all the fantasy. Without powers it comes down to about 2 things, hacking skill checks and slashing enemies.

"dice game is dice rolls, film at 11"

I don't know, man. I really don't understand what you're objecting to. 5E has quite a few fun powers. Portent and Cutting Words are I think two of the most fun abilities in the history of D and D. Cutting Words and Bardic Inspiration both are significantly more fun than Inspire Courage, which has zip zero nada zilch things to do beyond remembering to update numbers on a character sheet.

As to 'removing the fantasy' and removing the cool passive powers, that seems silly. Phoenix UA sorcerer can just set whatever they want on fire. Storm sorcerer can fly any time they cast a spell. GOO warlock gets telepathy at level one - that's fantastic! A Primeval Guardian ranger can become an ent! If you can't tell a crazy fantasy story about a tree-archer, you're not trying.

You want a cool power? Phantasmal force is a level 2 spell, so you get it early. It's super hard to resist. It can create any illusion you want it to and the target is forced to automatically rationalize it, even after they interact with the illusion! You can literally kill someone with imaginary lava; you can drown someone in a fake gelatinous cube; you can make someone fall down the stairs over and over and over and over and

[the secret fire]

Ive never broken a game. So that isnt exactly a solid basis. Its boring to not have any powers. If you wanted to curtail magic, thats accomplished. If you wanted to take out excitement?

In Soviet Russia, game breaks you.

[Sirithhyando]

I think Ill just have level 1 spells in every slot using higher levels. If I do that at least Ill have a lot of uses of few abilities. Is that how to play 5th edition?
Quick question, you do know you dont have to assign your spell to spell slot at the start of the day?
If you know "Cure wounds", you can cast it with any available spell slot of the same level or higher any time.

I haven't really played earlier edition though i've tried 3.5. There's so much fun option without being too overpowered, that's one thing i loved about 3.5 (can't do any comparison with PF, sorry) but in 5th, there's already quite a few options.

Maybe just try it and see how it goes?


I could play a Pathfinder Bard as I heavily worked on the character to be both something I could use for myself and very much help the team, a Battle Bard. I worked on damage, defense, spells, skills, and support. So I was Assertive and Supportive, not passive.
What i'd do, it would depend on stats rolled (if rolled) because it would be MAD. Try your hand on a halfling eldritch knight with 2 level of divination wizard. Go for the feat Lucky and the other one i cant remember the name that got the pre-requisite : Halfling.
I think you would be off to a good start for support and defense. Perhaps it would be enough for a good damage-dealer though you'd lack in skills. (maybe one level of rogue too but i dont know about 3 class multi-class lol)

[sophontteks]

There arent enough passive abilities to make classes unique from each other. They didnt just hurt magic, they just hurt any fun powers. What is there to even do if almost all your powers are on hour long "cooldown timers"? I didnt think about how boring a fantasy game would be until someone took out all the fantasy. Without powers it comes down to about 2 things, hacking skill checks and slashing enemies.
Passive abilities are boring paperwork. What about active abilities? The actual fun abilities that set the classes apart and make the classes unique?

Just looking at the bards...
Glamour bards have a special performance that turns several NPCs into adoring fans that will automatically help you and thwart plots against you, and they won't even know it effected them. This on top of 10 free castings of command that would automatically succeed against anyone they charmed with said performance. Shadow bards can wear peoples faces.

These are actual fun abilities that make the classes unique. They just aren't passive. I'd take these over some passive +X any day.

[Chaosticket]

Passive abilities are "always on". These can vary differently. In 5th edition from basic Armor Class, Extra Attacks, Proficiencies, and some Cantrips. In other editions these can vary more wildly, like permanent Auras or Animal Companions. The whole "always on" is the best part as that means you cant just run out of a timer or use up the charges. Its just an upgrade.

Short Rests abilities are active. They vary quite wildly. Bard's Inspiration can be expended extremely quickly, while a Druid's shapeshifting can last hours.

Then there are Spells, which are usually Long Rests. Those are easily the most powerful, but a Long Rest is more of less a whole game session.

You might be different. I dont want to hold on to abilities so long Im not using them. Yeah I want my Druid to be shapeshifting into an animal at free will, or have that Warlock summoning demons. It gives players powers, but it also changes characters they they arent basically all the same when they dont use their abilities.

I dont think any Dungeons and Dragons that actually allowed totally unlimited uses on most abilities. I do know editions that had many more uses though, sometimes reaching enough that you would use them pretty casually.

[Randomthom]

I just wrote this in another thread ("Sell me your PC idea") but I think it fits in this topic too so here it is, copied & pasted in all of it's... ahem... glory.

Short-version, fluff is fluff, you can play around with it somewhat...

Benzo 'the Magnificent' Treadlight
Lightfoot Halfling Lore Bard

Benzo is a comedian, storyteller, master of card tricks and can sing a decent tune. A one-man variety show. Unfortunately he is on the run after making fun of the wrong Nobleman in one of his routines. He can't quite just lay low though. Benzo the Magnificent was made to entertain, even if it does get him into trouble sometimes.

He casts his spells, not via a magical instrument as most bards do, but via a deck of playing cards that he is constantly shuffling. The shuffling speeds up when he is nervous. His ranged spells often involve him throwing the cards from the deck laced with bardic magic.

Build: Obviously pump Cha then dex then con. Use magical secrets at 6 to pick up counterspell and any other spell that you feel the group needs. The GM should probably be ok with the refluffing of using a deck of cards as the arcane focus instead of a musical instrument since it still occupies the hands.
Skills-wise, sleight of hand (for the card tricks) and performance are a must. I chose Entertainer as the background so gained Performance from there rather than from the bard picks.

I've had this character waiting in the wings for the next time I'm a PC rather than a DM but feel free to borrow, I already know he's going to be great value to RP with. I'm planning on an Irish accent when I play him, he'll have a grandiose opinion of himself and a steadfast belief that he belongs in the limelight. He is also a fine actor (consider the Actor feat) and might occasionally act as an unhinged psychopath for interrogation purposes, enhancing his performance with magic but is actually NG and would never actually torture someone, he is just very good at making them think he would!

"I've been Benzo the magnificent and you've been a wonderful source of information, thank you and goodnight!"

[GlenSmash!]

Passive abilities are "always on". These can vary differently. In 5th edition from basic Armor Class, Extra Attacks, Proficiencies, and some Cantrips. In other editions these can vary more wildly, like permanent Auras or Animal Companions. The whole "always on" is the best part as that means you cant just run out of a timer or use up the charges. Its just an upgrade.

And Bards get great passives, like Expertise and Cantrips


Short Rests abilities are active. They vary quite wildly. Bard's Inspiration can be expended extremely quickly, while a Druid's shapeshifting can last hours.

Then there are Spells, which are usually Long Rests. Those are easily the most powerful

Yes! And that's the challenge! You learn to recognize which to use in which circumstance and how often. This is often called System Mastery.


be good and but a Long Rest is more of less a whole game session.

It can, but it doesn't even remotely have to be. Rests are an in game time mechanic and have to direct correlation to Real Time game sessions. You may have no rests at all in a game sessions, you may have a month of downtime in a game session.


You might be different. I dont want to hold on to abilities so long Im not using them.

Then don't.


Yeah I want my Druid to be shapeshifting into an animal at free will, or have that Warlock summoning demons. It gives players powers, but it also changes characters they they arent basically all the same when they dont use their abilities.

I've found that when you've expended all your active abilities, it doesn't make all the characters the same, it drastically points out their differences giving classes like the Champion that has very few active abilities but quite a few "Always on" abilities the chance to shine.

Deciding which you like the most is part of the fun.


I dont think any Dungeons and Dragons that actually allowed totally unlimited uses on most abilities. I do know editions that had many more uses though, sometimes reaching enough that you would use them pretty casually.

And those editions were less popular and successful than 5e.

It turns out that when you make something that was heroic into something casual a lot of people (not every one) feel less like a hero instead of more like one.

So if you want to be Anomander Rake, 5e might not be the edition for you, but if you want to be Aragorn, Conan, Rincewind, Kvothe, etc. You can make a real decent crack at it in 5th.