[3.5] If you could pick two feats for a familiar...

[Luckmann]

Alright, so, I know familiars usually do not gain feats, but our DM has allowed us to take 2 traits and 2 flaws for familiars (and for animal companions and cohorts, etc.)

I've already settled on two Flaws: Poor Reflexes and Lightweight. It's a hedgehog, after all. If it's relevant, the owner is primarily a bard. The game itself is fairly low-op.

So if you could take two feats for a familiar, which two feats would you take?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, a hedgehog limits things a little. They're not fast, don't have good movement modes, aren't sneaky and can't activate wands.
Do they have 13 Con? Shape Soulmeld would be my pick then. Hidden Talent is also worth a look. Assume Supernatural Ability if you really want to go to the limit.
If you're looking for something less cheesy maybe Constant Guardian (DotU) or Quick Reconnoiter (DS) if you have ranks in spot/listen.

Familiars can be and do lots of things, but a hedgehog isn't really a good base to build off.
Personally i'm a fan of Coure Eladrin familairs with Deceptive Illumination. They can sneak, UMD, scout and have at-will Silent Image, but you'd need to take Celestial Familiar for that.
Even normal, non-improved familiars can be good but a hedgehog is just... there.

[Jay R]

You're doing it backwards. Decide what you want the beast to do for you first, and then choose abilities to support it.

If your familiar is primarily a lookout, then you want Alertness and Skill Focus (Spot). If he's going to explore small places, then you want Skill Focus (Search) and possibly Investigator.

For the right familiar, Run and Track would help it to follow foes who run away.

But figure out what you plan to use the familiar for first.

[Nifft]

Wild Cohort + Obtain Familiar.

"It's hedgehogs all the way down!"


But seriously, stuff that enhances survivability / mobility like Flyby Attack (for flying familiars) or Expeditious Dodge + Mobility for your poor little hedgehog to deliver touch spells in combat.

In a higher power game, Hidden Talent + Metamorphic Transfer could be a pretty sweet combo on the familiar of a Transmuter.

[daremetoidareyo]

Exotic weapon proficiency?

[Elkad]

Darkstalker almost always. Even a combat familiar like a hellhound may want it for ambushes.

Air Heritage, Improved Maneuverability and Flyby Attack are very nice on flyers.

UMD familiars want the same things you do. Like Improved Initiative, so they can burn that charge off the Haste wand before the tanks scatter all over the battlefield.

Edit: Hedgehog specifically.. If it can manage the Tumble ranks, Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk so it can trip without Size modifiers (and using it's Dexterity)?

[Bronk]

So if you could take two feats for a familiar, which two feats would you take?

I'd say, since the familiar uses your HD, Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty. That'll get you quite a bit of free extra boosts and extra feats.

Later on, you could Dark Chaos Shuffle one of the extra feats out for Darkstalker if you wanted it to stay out of sight more effectively.

[Luckmann]

Well, a hedgehog limits things a little. They're not fast, don't have good movement modes, aren't sneaky and can't activate wands.
Do they have 13 Con? Shape Soulmeld would be my pick then. Hidden Talent is also worth a look. Assume Supernatural Ability if you really want to go to the limit.
If you're looking for something less cheesy maybe Constant Guardian (DotU) or Quick Reconnoiter (DS) if you have ranks in spot/listen.

Familiars can be and do lots of things, but a hedgehog isn't really a good base to build off.
Personally i'm a fan of Coure Eladrin familairs with Deceptive Illumination. They can sneak, UMD, scout and have at-will Silent Image, but you'd need to take Celestial Familiar for that.
Even normal, non-improved familiars can be good but a hedgehog is just... there.13 Con? Not even close, my dude. 10, actually. And yes, I know, from an optimization standpoint, hedgehogs are not the greatest thing ever, but c'mon.. it's a hedgehog! :smalltongue:


Wild Cohort + Obtain Familiar.

"It's hedgehogs all the way down!"


But seriously, stuff that enhances survivability / mobility like Flyby Attack (for flying familiars) or Expeditious Dodge + Mobility for your poor little hedgehog to deliver touch spells in combat.

In a higher power game, Hidden Talent + Metamorphic Transfer could be a pretty sweet combo on the familiar of a Transmuter.Actually, the player that has the hedgehog (through Obtain Familiar) actually has a Riding Dog (through Wild Cohort). The Riding Dog has Short Attention Span as a flaw. Good times. :smallbiggrin:

But Expeditious Dodge/Mobility actually isn't a bad suggestion at all, I like that.


Exotic weapon proficiency?I.. I think wielding a weapon would be hard to sneak past the DM. Hedgehogs have a distinct lack of arms and reach in general. :smallsigh:



Darkstalker almost always. Even a combat familiar like a hellhound may want it for ambushes.

Air Heritage, Improved Maneuverability and Flyby Attack are very nice on flyers.

UMD familiars want the same things you do. Like Improved Initiative, so they can burn that charge off the Haste wand before the tanks scatter all over the battlefield.

Edit: Hedgehog specifically.. If it can manage the Tumble ranks, Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk so it can trip without Size modifiers (and using it's Dexterity)?Darkstalker is a great, great idea. Underfoot Combat/Confound the Big Folk, too, but unfortunately, this particular hedgehog can't rock it, because the master hasn't really invested in Tumble at all. Which is weird, considering her dancing proclivities.

I'd say, since the familiar uses your HD, Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty. That'll get you quite a bit of free extra boosts and extra feats.

Later on, you could Dark Chaos Shuffle one of the extra feats out for Darkstalker if you wanted it to stay out of sight more effectively.No way, José, on the Exalted feats. Qualifying for Exalted feats is pretty hairy on it's own, already, but squeezing vows out of a hedgehog? Sure, it's got an intelligence outclassing half the party already, but it doesn't exactly have a moral compass. :smalltongue:

[RaiKirah]

Martial Study (any Shadow Hand - maybe Shadow Jaunt) and Martial Stance (Island of Blades). Keep your hedgehog on your shoulder and always count as flanking. Of course if you're not a combat bard this is markedly less useful.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Quick trait, Fleet of Foot, and Run? Add a few speed-enhancing magic items, and...

[ericgrau]

Make a tumbler and have it hold the charge on attack spells. Get a free extra spell every combat round 1 before you cast yours. Give it defensive buffs too so it doesn't die (esp. hour/lev ones), but it only has to survive 1 attack and then withdraw. Though as a bard your options on attack spells are limited and you may want him to buff allies this way instead. Then maybe you'll want speed or some such.

[Ramza00]

Arcane Schooling Regional Feat: [not the full text but that is the relevant bits.] ... Choose one arcane spellcasting class (bard, sorcerer, or wizard). You can activate spell trigger magic items as if you had 1 level in the selected class

Dragontouched: You gain the dragonblood subtype. [...other text with small amount of bonuses to certain skills, 1 hit point, and small bonus to certain saves similar to a dragon...]

Together these two feats your familiar can use a wand of "wings of cover" whenever it needs to and apply the benefit to anyone that is within 5 feet of the familiar. It is a get out of jail free card that uses your familiar immediate action. So many things you can do once you break line of effect, or you can give someone +4 to reflex and +8 to AC for area of effect spells / attacks.

In effect your familiar gets to do this whenever he wants.

https://uchihadoe.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/naruto-stops-large-kunai.jpg?w=560

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Or if you have a familiar with the neccessary UMD skills instead take the feat Ancestral Relic and have your familiar cast spells from a wand or staff or something. The cool part is that with Ancestral Relic all your wealth by level is accessible and thus you can always pick the cool stuff and if you can't pick the cool stuff you or a party member gladly give the not cool stuff to your familiar who changes that wealth to useful wealth (recharging the wand / staff) at a 1:1 ratio. In effect is is almost like your DM just handing out gold to you, and you purchasing stuff at the mini mart from all the books, instead of him rolling for treasure.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Arcane Schooling Regional Feat: [not the full text but that is the relevant bits.] ... Choose one arcane spellcasting class (bard, sorcerer, or wizard). You can activate spell trigger magic items as if you had 1 level in the selected class

Dragontouched: You gain the dragonblood subtype. [...other text with small amount of bonuses to certain skills, 1 hit point, and small bonus to certain saves similar to a dragon...]

Together these two feats your familiar can use a wand of "wings of cover" whenever it needs to and apply the benefit to anyone that is within 5 feet of the familiar. It is a get out of jail free card that uses your familiar immediate action. So many things you can do once you break line of effect, or you can give someone +4 to reflex and +8 to AC for area of effect spells / attacks.

The problem is that a hedgehog can't talk, and activating a spell trigger item requires you to do that. Not to mention that it doesn't have hands to hold a wand with.

Though you can combine Dragontouched with Draconic Aura since it uses your HD for the bonus. Draconic Aura:Energy(Cold) on your familiar and Snowcasting for you is an easy +4 to spell DCs at level 20.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Give the hedgehog a shrink collar from the Arms and Equipment Guide. Being Small opens up options. Maybe some hands of man, and a pearl of speech. And, of course, a lifetime supply of chili dogs.

[RaiKirah]

The problem is that a hedgehog can't talk, and activating a spell trigger item requires you to do that. Not to mention that it doesn't have hands to hold a wand with.

Though you can combine Dragontouched with Draconic Aura since it uses your HD for the bonus. Draconic Aura:Energy(Cold) on your familiar and Snowcasting for you is an easy +4 to spell DCs at level 20.

Would Surrogate Spellcasting (Savage Species) allow the hedgehog to activate wands?

Also, Enspell Familiar (Dragon #220, Dragon Compendium) is generally a good bet.

[daremetoidareyo]

Dont hedgehogs have a poison attack? Serpent kingdoms has a spit venom feat or is it called deadly spittle? Poison attacks in a 15 foot cone, yo.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dont hedgehogs have a poison attack? Serpent kingdoms has a spit venom feat or is it called deadly spittle? Poison attacks in a 15 foot cone, yo.That's platypi.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For an animal companion, Hidden Talent: Expansion and Up The Walls. It gets bigger, runs up the wall, and jumps down onto opponents for 20d6 damage per the falling object rules (provided it weighs enough).

Mage Slayer (and Pierce Magical Protection/Concealment) is a good choice for anything that threatens adjacent squares, so an animal companion or an improved familiar. Animals can get cross-class Spellcraft ranks to qualify for it.

[daremetoidareyo]

That's platypi.

Hedgehog Familiar:
CR —; Diminutive magical beast; HD 1; hp 1/2 master’s;
Init +0; Spd 15 ft.; AC 17, touch 15, flatfooted 16;
Base Atk +0; Grp –16; Atk +5 melee (1d3–4 bite); Full Atk +5 melee (1d3–4 bite);
Space/Reach 1 ft./0 ft.;
SA poison;
SQ defensive ball, improved evasion, granted abilities;
AL any;
SV Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +1;
Str 3, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 5.
Skills and Feats: Hide +17, Listen +5, Spot +5; Weapon Finesse.
Poison (Ex): When in a defensive ball (see below), spines poison foes touching the hedgehog; injury, Fortitude DC 10, initial and secondary damage 1d2 Dex.
Defensive Ball (Ex): Rolls into a ball as a standard action, granting a +2 circumstance bonus on saves and AC. Unrolling is a free action.

But the spittle won't work because it requires a poisonous bite attack, not a poison spine attack.

So if we are serious about optimizing this, I'm thinking that our wizard needs a gnome calculous, into which we load the hedgehog. The hedgehog then rolls into a defensive ball. Now we can shoot him at range to do 1d2 dex damage to any foes touching the hedgehog. The save DC is clearly con based. So any constitution buffs will increase that fort save DC.

Further, it doesn't say that the hedgehog loses any abilities while it is in a defensive ball. So, theoretically, it can still bite while being balled up.

So, as far as feats go:
hidden talent (far hand) you can use the power to move yourself around touching people in your defensive ball.
ability focus will increase that poison fort save DC by +2

I'll throw this one in the rock tumbler and see if i can't find something very shiny.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's...strange. Hedgehogs are definitely not venomous, but apparently...


HEDGEHOG. Hedgehogs get a special mention because although they do not produce venom, they have been observed to use venom in their defenses. That is, they use venom from other animal sources. Some hedgehogs chew on the skin of poisonous toads and then use the toad venom to coat their own spines.

Source (https://mom.me/pets/19914-venomous-mammals/item/hedgehog/)

Any way we can get li'l Hedgie to do a spin attack?

[daremetoidareyo]

That's...strange. Hedgehogs are definitely not venomous, but apparently...



Source (https://mom.me/pets/19914-venomous-mammals/item/hedgehog/)

Any way we can get li'l Hedgie to do a spin attack?

I don't know about spinning, but initiating a grapple is a touch attack, and touching the thing makes you get poisoned.

[RaiKirah]

How much do Hedgehogs cost? Would they make an economical ammunition source for a Master Thrower? They are I believe small enough to be used with Palm Throw to through two poisonous hedgehogs with one attack....

[Ramza00]

The problem is that a hedgehog can't talk, and activating a spell trigger item requires you to do that. Not to mention that it doesn't have hands to hold a wand with.

Though you can combine Dragontouched with Draconic Aura since it uses your HD for the bonus. Draconic Aura:Energy(Cold) on your familiar and Snowcasting for you is an easy +4 to spell DCs at level 20.

What are you talking about, Levi Ackerman can talk.:smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[sleepyphoenixx]

Would Surrogate Spellcasting (Savage Species) allow the hedgehog to activate wands?

No, activating a spell trigger item isn't casting a spell. The only thing i know of to get around the need to speak to use wands is a prestige class from PF.
Even spells that don't have verbal components need you to talk to activate a wand of them.

Also Surrogate Spellcasting specifically forbids that.

This feat does not permit the use of magic items by a creature whose form could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak if you cannot already.

[RaiKirah]

specifically[/I] forbids that.

Ah, was AFB and forgot that clause, whoops!

[Troacctid]

I mean I personally would pick some combination of Dazzling Fire, Radiant Flicker, Deceptive Illumination, and Fascinating Illumination, because like 80% of my familiars are coure eladrin. But I guess that's not applicable for you.

I find it useful to have familiars with feats that can help the master. Draconic Aura, Protection Devotion, Good Devotion, Water Devotion, and Daunting Presence are some excellent options that take advantage of the familiar using your HD to calculate their bonuses. Improved Aid Another (Dragon #323) is great too, allowing it to give a +4 bonus instead of +2 when it aids someone.

[Bronk]

No way, José, on the Exalted feats. Qualifying for Exalted feats is pretty hairy on it's own, already, but squeezing vows out of a hedgehog? Sure, it's got an intelligence outclassing half the party already, but it doesn't exactly have a moral compass. :smalltongue:

I don't know... this hedgehog is starting to sound pretty shifty! :)

[RaiKirah]

No way, José, on the Exalted feats. Qualifying for Exalted feats is pretty hairy on it's own, already, but squeezing vows out of a hedgehog? Sure, it's got an intelligence outclassing half the party already, but it doesn't exactly have a moral compass. :smalltongue:

Pick up Celestial Familiar and you could make a string argument for Exalted feats I think

[Nifft]

I don't know... this hedgehog is starting to sound pretty shifty! :)

Enter Coldsteel the Edgehog.

[noob]

I guess you could send your shifty hedgehog in a reedemery preventively.
Also roll on the edgelord generating table to see how your hedgehog is edgy.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540671-Darkangst-Edgemourn-the-PC&highlight=edgelord
a very useful resource for all your edgelording needs.

[mabriss lethe]

Seconding Draconic aura. It's one of the things I try to find a way to put onto psicrystals. It lets an otherwise fragile XP bomb contribute to encounters and still stay out of harms way.

[Luckmann]

I guess you could send your shifty hedgehog in a reedemery preventively.
Also roll on the edgelord generating table to see how your hedgehog is edgy.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?540671-Darkangst-Edgemourn-the-PC&highlight=edgelord
a very useful resource for all your edgelording needs.

Sorry, that's an amazing idea, but it's already got a name. Benny.

It's named Benny.

:smallbiggrin:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sorry, that's an amazing idea, but it's already got a name. Benny.

It's named Benny.

:smallbiggrin:Not Pokey? I'm disappointed.

[Malphegor]

Hoard Gullet- Bat/Rat/Cat Of Holding!

Alacritous Cogitation (modified): once per day, the spell cast by alacritous cogitation can be cast from the familiar’s location- it’s the familiar reminding you of how that spell worked!