That's not Thor

[Kornaki]

Thor interacts with mortals on a daily basis when they pray to him. It's possible he forgot his Deity Voice was too loud for them, but I consider it unlikely.

On the other hand, there is a deity on record as not having any interaction with mortals, and a history of their side impersonating members of Thor's side. Their realm is also the location that a Durkon spirit should be sent to upon death.

That deity, of course, is Hel. And that spirit is the carbon copy that Durkon created out of the vampire's spirit.

I for one am very interested in seeing where this plot line leads us.

[ShadowSandbag]

That seems unlikely. While Thor might talk to mortals frequently, that's not in person and i imagine that when hes talking to mortals through prayer its very different from talking directly to someone in the upper planes.

[Keltest]

Thor interacts with mortals on a daily basis when they pray to him. It's possible he forgot his Deity Voice was too loud for them, but I consider it unlikely.

On the other hand, there is a deity on record as not having any interaction with mortals, and a history of their side impersonating members of Thor's side. Their realm is also the location that a Durkon spirit should be sent to upon death.

That deity, of course, is Hel. And that spirit is the carbon copy that Durkon created out of the vampire's spirit.

I for one am very interested in seeing where this plot line leads us.

So Hel is just hanging out in the lobby of the Lawful Good afterlife, pretending to be Thor, and none of the Beings of Law and Good (or the real Thor) have anything to say about this? And the real Durkon's soul is just somewhere else?

[AchtungNight]

Thor doesn’t interact with mortals in daily prayers. Have you forgotten the ThorPrayer system? I forget the comic it appears in, but it’s his answering service.

[Eric 541]

Why would Minrah be there? She died honorably and wasn't a vampire.

[Peelee]

Keltest hit all the points I wanted to hit. Five gold says that's Thor, and that's Durkon.

[Jasdoif]

Thor doesn’t interact with mortals in daily prayers. Have you forgotten the ThorPrayer system? I forget the comic it appears in, but it’s his answering service.They got rid of it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html).

[hroþila]

Hel does interact with mortals on a daily basis, much to her chagrin. In person, too, which is more than we can say with 100% certainty about Thor.

[Peelee]

They got rid of it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html).

Indeed. Now he just uses his angels to deal with it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html).

[Kornaki]

So Hel is just hanging out in the lobby of the Lawful Good afterlife, pretending to be Thor, and none of the Beings of Law and Good (or the real Thor) have anything to say about this? And the real Durkon's soul is just somewhere else?

That's not the lawful good afterlife. Hel can make her domain appear however she wants. The real Durkon's soul is in the real lawful good afterlife having a normal volume conversation with Thor.


Why would Minrah be there? She died honorably and wasn't a vampire.

That's not really Minrah, it's part of the ruse.


Hel does interact with mortals on a daily basis, much to her chagrin. In person, too, which is more than we can say with 100% certainty about Thor.

I don't remember this, can you give a link or elaborate?

[ORione]

I don't remember this, can you give a link or elaborate?

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html)

[Keltest]

That's not the lawful good afterlife. Hel can make her domain appear however she wants. The real Durkon's soul is in the real lawful good afterlife having a normal volume conversation with Thor.



That's not really Minrah, it's part of the ruse.



I don't remember this, can you give a link or elaborate?

So now Hel is engineering an elaborate ruse to manipulate her main servant?

That is making this more complicated, not less.

[Peelee]

So now Hel is engineering an elaborate ruse to manipulate her main servant?

That is making this more complicated, not less.

No, see, it's really Thor that's acting like the vampire spirit who has momentarily been taken over by Durkon. It all fits!

[Fish]

This proposition requires us to believe that Rich is deliberately feeding false information to Durkon and to the reader at the same time. He’s done it before. I can see how this could work, but it’s the kind of technique normally used to increase narrative tension.

It’s similar to when the blacksmith told the Order about the starmetal quest. Both Order and readers were fooled. It was then revealed to the readers, but not to the Order, that it was Sabine in disguise. This increases dramatic irony by giving the reader information the characters do not possess.

It’s also similar to the Xykon shell game during the battle of Azure City. In that instance, Rich tipped his hand with some slight variations in the Xykon artwork, to give attentive readers a way to determine there was something afoot. It also conveyed the larger narrative goal about Haley’s thiefy wisdom about such things as double-bluffs, which would be useful later.

This ... I don’t know. Where does it go from here? “Thor” says a bunch of false stuff about the rift, Durkon is fooled, readers are fooled ... for what? Is Durkon going to act on this false information somehow? How would false information serve the story, or for that matter, serve Loki or Hel or whoever might impersonate Thor? Is Durkon later going to realize that “Thor” was lying and have a religious crisis because his god was lying to him, or is Durkon going to work out the ruse somehow? How would Durkon work out a god-level deception? Also, we have reason to suspect that Durkon won’t necessarily get to remember everything he learns in the afterlife, so this would be a lie to the reader that Durkon wouldn’t even remember. Then we find out it was a lie so the reader doesn’t believe it either?

Suppose there is a valid reason and Rich knows what he’s doing. He so often does. Let’s look at the timing of this unreliable narration.

Why build dramatic tension here? We just had the denouement for the story arc: the realization of Durkon’s plan to thwart Durkula, the destruction of the vampire body, and the saving of the Order from a TPK. Why ratchet up the irony at this specific moment? The book is nearly over. We’re on the downhill slope to the end of the book, ready for the final climb toward the ending of the whole strip. This is probably not the ideal moment for building more tension.

As a narrative tactic, I just don’t see it — at least not here and now.

[Peelee]

This proposition requires us to believe that Rich is deliberately feeding false information to Durkon and to the reader at the same time. He’s done it before. I can see how this could work, but it’s the kind of technique normally used to increase narrative tension.

It’s similar to when the blacksmith told the Order about the starmetal quest. Both Order and readers were fooled. It was then revealed to the readers, but not to the Order, that it was Sabine in disguise.

It's not a straight analogy, because this requires that the Order also have been someone else in disguise.

[Kornaki]

So now Hel is engineering an elaborate ruse to manipulate her main servant?

That is making this more complicated, not less.

Her main servant, that is still a Durkon clone. Perhaps the ruse is intended to break him out of it.

[Peelee]

Her main servant, that is still a Durkon clone. Perhaps the ruse is intended to break him out of it.

And this would accomplish....?

[Fish]

Exactly. Having it be a fake Durkon talking to a fake Thor is lying to the reader alone, because Reasons? Hel would lie to a spirit over whom she has absolute dominion, who can no longer affect the plot? I don’t see it.

[Kornaki]

And this would accomplish....?

So she can send him out for another round of adventure I guess.

In the next comic Thor will call Durkon a goodie two shoes, and Durkon will say

"Huh. But I'm not a goodie two shoes. In fact

...

I'm not Durkon. I'm

..


GREG!!!"

And a big splash page where the illusion of dropped and we see him standing next to Hel in her hall.

QUOTE=ORione;23306368]Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html)[/QUOTE]

This is pretty conclusive. I guess the theory doesn't work.

Unless... Hel knows that Durkula spirit knows that hel interacts with her mortals on a daily basis, so is pretending to not be used to it to make it more convincing that she's not Hel.

[Peelee]

So she can send him out for another round of adventure I guess.

Imean, if Hel could just send her undead champions out for another round of adventures whenever she wanted, this entire subplot wouldn't really exist.

[Calthropstu]

Why would Durkon go to Hel? He died honorably fighting a vampire for the sake of his comrades.

[factotum]

Imean, if Hel could just send her undead champions out for another round of adventures whenever she wanted, this entire subplot wouldn't really exist.

Yeah, agreed. The whole reason Hel has been so powerless is because she hasn't been able to get any high-level undead clerics and therefore hasn't ever had a voice at the Godsmoot. If she was just able to create high-level spirits and send them out into the world as undead creatures, she would have done it already--she wouldn't have had to wait for a high-level dwarven cleric to be turned into a vampire (a circumstance so unlikely it hasn't happened before in over a thousand years since the world was created).

[Gift Jeraff]

not thor. thog.

[Peelee]

not thor. thog.

Now this is a theory I can get behind!

[Rrmcklin]

This theory doesn't make sense for all the reasons everyone else has mentioned, but also because Thor specifically notes he's aware of Minrah, and talks to her about something private she has been praying to Thor about for awhile.

How do you explain Hel being able to fact that interaction?

[Fish]

So she can send him out for another round of adventure I guess.
But why lie to him in that case? So he would think he’s Durkon, obeying the orders of Thor? Why fool a spirit that is her absolute servant into thinking that he is working for someone else? Your reveal “ha ha, I’m secretly Greg!” falls apart, for one thing; and how does it help her plans to trick Durkula into thinking he doesn’t do Hel’s bidding?

[5a Violista]

This theory doesn't make sense for all the reasons everyone else has mentioned, but also because Thor specifically notes he's aware of Minrah, and talks to her about something private she has been praying to Thor about for awhile.

How do you explain Hel being able to fact that interaction?

Obviously, the only possible explanation that ties this all together is the following:

Minrah was actually a follower of Hel this whole time. I mean, was it ever really confirmed before now that Minrah was actually a cleric of Thor? Thus, "Thor" revealing her secret prayer to Minrah essentially confirms to Minrah that "Thor" is actually the goddess Hel. That's why this whole page was plot relevant.

Now, of course, there's Hel's whole "can't have a living cleric" deal, but aren't there undead who can disguise themselves as living beings? Or, alternatively, she's of a different class like Favored Soul or Druid or Ranger or some homebrew class that's not "Cleric". And how did Minrah convince the clerics and priests of Thor to let her in? Well, see, she's long been a sleeper agent, who gained their trust by...

...alternatively, it's actual-Thor.

[SlashDash]

I was willing to maybe take the theory that Thor was actually Loki since he was talking like all "Dude" and stuff

But this being Hel? Yeah no.


And the part about Minrah pretty much shuts the deal that it's Thor.


This theory seems to be as likely as saying that they are in fact still stuck at the pyramid under Girard's illusion.

[Synesthesy]

Some people in this thread are thinking too much like Elan.

Some other, not enough.

[Fincher]

Some people in this thread are thinking too much like Elan.

Some other, not enough.

So what you're telling me is that's actually Banjo.

[LuminousWarrior]

If this depiction of Thor isn't pretty much exactly what you would assume OotS Thor would act like, then I think we've been reading different comics.

[ORione]

If this depiction of Thor isn't pretty much exactly what you would assume OotS Thor would act like, then I think we've been reading different comics.

Well, that's a bit harsh. I mean, he seems to be sober here.

[Peelee]

Well, that's a bit harsh. I mean, he seems to be sober here.

Well, it's definitely a good thing you seem to have no experience with hardcore alcoholics.

[Darth Paul]

Well, that's a bit harsh. I mean, he seems to be sober here.


Well, it's definitely a good think you seem to have no experience with hardcore alcoholics.

To be fair, Thor does seem to have cut down on the binge drinking since the actual fate of the actual world came to be at stake. He's in danger of being slightly responsible these days, as deities go.

Once the world is saved, though, look out for a truly epic bender. (Not the robot from Futurama, although he was epic too. Especially when Bender was on a bender.)

[FlawedParadigm]

The people in the last two comics are actually Miko, Redcloak's niece, and Fyron's son. Disguises all around!

[martianmister]

So, Thor is actually Hel, Durkon is actually HPoH, Minrah is actually just an illusion and this cloudy afterlife is actually Hel's realm?

[Mike Havran]

In the meantime, the Exarch succeeded. The world is no more. Hel is the Queen of the Northern Gods and now she is messing with poor dwarven souls for her sick amusement.

[RainbowCloakBun]

As our dearly departed Durkon would say:



Och! Lookae all o’ tha trolls! Where’s a billy goat gruff when ya need one?


Just kidding, but you have to admit it's a bit of a stretch going from Thor to Hel. Loki replacing Thor makes sense, he's a trickster by nature, but it takes way too much bending of what we already know to jump to that being Hel.

[deuterio12]

In the meantime, the Exarch succeeded. The world is no more. Hel is the Queen of the Northern Gods and now she is messing with poor dwarven souls for her sick amusement.

This. Giving them that bit of hope first will make their suffering that more tastier.

[Kish]

Lovely thought--I mean, bizarre thought with no comprehensible appeal to it--but even internally it doesn't work. Hel would have gotten the souls of all the dwarves who were just abruptly killed, but those who died in battle would still go to where they would have gone anyway. That would include both Durkon and Minrah.

[KorvinStarmast]

So, Thor is actually Hel, Durkon is actually HPoH, Minrah is actually just an illusion and this cloudy afterlife is actually Hel's realm? And greed is good.
~ Gordon Gecko aka Haley Starshine

[skim172]

I don't think its Hel, but I do think it's possible that this is Loki in disguise. This whole "you have been diverted from your eternal resting place to a one-on-one meeting with your god" thing feels a bit irregular and a bit "off the books". And Thor is a Lawful god. Granted, we haven't seen too much of Thor, so maybe he's more relaxed towards Lawfulness than his official alignment, but it does seem slightly out of line for him to be doing anything secretively.

But, he's not drunk, he's acting semi-serious, he's not quaffing and laughing, and he seems genuinely concerned about these mortals. Which to me does not seem very Thor-like.

But on the other hand, if this were Loki in disguise, it's an ideal opportunity to intercede in mortal events, passing on some divine secrets to Durkon before he gets resurrected, furtively, away from the eyes of the other gods.

And it would explain the surfer lingo and the level of "dude-aciousness" in Thor's voice as well.

[skaddix]

Well I mean the stakes are pretty high for Thor here.

[Ruck]

Thor is a Lawful god.
[citation needed]


And it would explain the surfer lingo and the level of "dude-aciousness" in Thor's voice as well.

So would "being Thor."

[Peelee]

But, he's not drunk, he's acting semi-serious, he's not quaffing and laughing, and he seems genuinely concerned about these mortals. Which to me does not seem very Thor-like.

In addition to what Ruck said, if that doesn't seem very Thor-like (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html), that's your own deal.

[Ruck]

In addition to what Ruck said, if that doesn't seem very Thor-like (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html), that's your own deal.

I just realized that skim's argument requires both that "being serious about mortal life" isn't Thor-like, and also "acting and talking like a good-time party-bro" isn't Thor-like either. Well, what is Thor-like, then?

[Peelee]

I just realized that skim's argument requires both that "being serious about mortal life" isn't Thor-like, and also "acting and talking like a good-time party-bro" isn't Thor-like either. Well, what is Thor-like, then?

Being capable of wielding a hammer?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Being capable of wielding a hammer?

I have always found that, not being particularly capable with such tools, using them for any length of time leaves me very Thor.

Grey Wolf, not sorry at all.

[Ruck]

Being capable of wielding a hammer?

Well, he has a hammer here, so QED.

That said, I should clarify a point regarding my last post-- acting and talking like a good-time bro and taking things seriously aren't mutually exclusive at all. One of my close friends from the last decade is a total bro-- loves watching sports, drinking beers, doing all that with his fellow bros, going out to pick up girls, etc. He's also got a Ph.D and an M.D. and is currently in residence for neurosurgery. Don't confuse personality with talent and don't confuse either with character.

[Peelee]

I have always found that, not being particularly capable with such tools, using them for any length of time leaves me very Thor.

Grey Wolf, not sorry at all.

Just be careful. Too much stress like that and you'll go Balder.

[Rrmcklin]

I don't think its Hel, but I do think it's possible that this is Loki in disguise. This whole "you have been diverted from your eternal resting place to a one-on-one meeting with your god" thing feels a bit irregular and a bit "off the books". And Thor is a Lawful god. Granted, we haven't seen too much of Thor, so maybe he's more relaxed towards Lawfulness than his official alignment, but it does seem slightly out of line for him to be doing anything secretively.

That Durkon is Lawful Good does not mean that Thor is Lawful Good.


But, he's not drunk, he's acting semi-serious, he's not quaffing and laughing, and he seems genuinely concerned about these mortals. Which to me does not seem very Thor-like.

I will never understand this Having a fun-loving personality is not the same thing as person being incapable of being serious. I don't get trying to pigeon-hole characters into being one-dimensional, especially in a story like this.


But on the other hand, if this were Loki in disguise, it's an ideal opportunity to intercede in mortal events, passing on some divine secrets to Durkon before he gets resurrected, furtively, away from the eyes of the other gods.

And it would explain the surfer lingo and the level of "dude-aciousness" in Thor's voice as well.

Because Loki can totally just interfere with the normal processing of souls that would go to another god. Really, the three main points of your post contradict one another: first you say it's strange for Thor to be meeting Durkon and Minrah because he's Lawful, but it's also strange to you that Thor could be serious and concerned, but it's also strange that Thor can speak in an informal manner?

[The_Weirdo]

That's not Thor, it's actually Aphrodite.

That's not Durkon, it's actually Wolverine.

That's not Minrah, it's actually me.

That's my new headcanon.

[skim172]

I just realized that skim's argument requires both that "being serious about mortal life" isn't Thor-like, and also "acting and talking like a good-time party-bro" isn't Thor-like either. Well, what is Thor-like, then?
Or, skim's argument requires neither of those. Because skim wasn't saying "Thor is serious" or "Thor is a bro". All skim was pointing out was that Thor hadn't previously been shown to be too interested in mortal affairs. And that he previously hadn't used a lot of "dude" in his speech.

Whereas Loki has shown some interest in mortal affairs (though mostly in regards to this "destroy the world" vote dealy). And he says "dude" quite a lot. Hence, the wild speculative possibility that it might be Loki in disguise.

That was it. I wouldn't even call it an argument, because it's not something I would even support. It really was meant to be fun and harmless speculation.

[Darth Tom]

So what you're telling me is that's actually Banjo.

No... we know that Banjo is sleeping in sunken cities until such time as the world has forgotten and the stars are right. Durkon is hearing the call... of Banjuthulhu!

Admittedly he didn't sleep very long, but that's puppets for you.

[KorvinStarmast]

And that he previously hadn't used a lot of "dude" in his speech.

Whereas Loki has shown some interest in mortal affairs (though mostly in regards to this "destroy the world" vote dealy). And he says "dude" quite a lot. Hence, the wild speculative possibility that it might be Loki in disguise. Aren't they brothers in standard Norse mythology? That might explain them having very similar speech patterns.

[Fyraltari]

Aren't they brothers in standard Norse mythology? That might explain them having very similar speech patterns.

No. Loki is Odin's sworn brother in actual Norse Mythology (where Thor arch-ennemy is one of Loki's sons the World Snake). However here, as in Marvel's "Norse mythology" they are both sons of Odin. So yes that could explain both of them using the word "dude" if you need more explanation than "both are laid-back persons".

[pendell]

This thread reminds me of the short story An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Occurrence_at_Owl_Creek_Bridge)


The protaganist is about to be hung as a spy; the rope breaks, he runs, evades rifle and cannon fire, and just makes it home after many adventures when he experiences a sudden pain and a bright light and then ..nothing.

It was all a hallucination, you see. The rope never broke. He was hung. He imagined the entire sequence in the milliseconds between the trap door dropping and the sudden jerk. It was milliseconds in real time, but the hallucination lasted days of subjective time.



This sounds roughly the same ... for Durkon to be experiencing this would be to experience a very long , sustained hallucination. That seems very unlikely to me. From the viewpoint of storytelling economy, it would be a lot of wasted panels when the main tension of the book has already been resolved.

No, I think this really is Thor, and the conversation is going to be an important one .. both for Durkon, and for the Order.

Unless, of course, that's not Thor but is actually a really large epileptic tree :smallamused: .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[SodaQueen]

not thor. thog.Well, this is obviously my new head cannon.

A cannon that will most likely shoot Thog onto my enemies for their quasi-perceived slights as part of an overly elaborate plan by me, SodaQueen Super Genius.

[Darth Paul]

No... we know that Banjo is sleeping in sunken cities until such time as the world has forgotten and the stars are right. Durkon is hearing the call... of Banjuthulhu!

By the way, happy birthday today, H. P. Lovecraft. :smallbiggrin:

[Rrmcklin]

Or, skim's argument requires neither of those. Because skim wasn't saying "Thor is serious" or "Thor is a bro". All skim was pointing out was that Thor hadn't previously been shown to be too interested in mortal affairs. And that he previously hadn't used a lot of "dude" in his speech.

And as someone else pointed out, saying Thor isn't interested in the mortals well-being in this situation is demonstrably false.


Whereas Loki has shown some interest in mortal affairs (though mostly in regards to this "destroy the world" vote dealy). And he says "dude" quite a lot. Hence, the wild speculative possibility that it might be Loki in disguise.

So when Thor votes to not destroy the world for their mortal followers sakes', he's not interested in mortals, but when Loki votes to also not destroyed the world, not even specifically because of the mortals, but because he's had fun and he figures they can do a rush job in 15 minutes if need be, he does. And when has Loki said dude "quite a lot"?


That was it. I wouldn't even call it an argument, because it's not something I would even support. It really was meant to be fun and harmless speculation.

Speculation can still be analyzed, and yours had several obvious flaws and contradictions.

[hroþila]

standard Norse mythology
This is a bit of a contradiction in terms :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

This is a bit of a contradiction in terms :smalltongue: Fair point. I think to me the "standard" is what I read in Bullfinch's Mythology over 40 years ago, but that's been contaminated a lot with comic books and other stuff.

[skim172]

Speculation can still be analyzed, and yours had several obvious flaws and contradictions.

Absolutely.

But it probably doesn't deserve much analysis.