lylsyly
2018-08-18, 10:40 AM
From the 3.5 RAW thread
Q208 By RAW - Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold with a Dragonspawn Template - Doable? or Not?
A 208 Short answer: Yes.
Explanation if Needed/Desired: Dragonspawn is an Inherited Template (one that is part of the creature from its birth) in all but name, so it would be applied before the Dragonwrought feat (which changes the Kobold's creature type to Dragon). While some of the text implies Dragonborn was intended for Humanoid creatures, any creature type may undergo the Rite of Rebirth.
There are 2 major problems with this answer.
1: Dragonspawn is an acquired template.
Created through a hideous method that transforms humanoids into draconianlike creatures by fusing the mind and soul of the victim with the shard of a draconian's,
They are "created" but also "transformed". The bit about "fusing the mind and soul" makes it more apparent that the creature being transformed is an already built creature (ie, at least level 1) however.
2: Dragonborn lose ALL the fancy stuff you get from Dragonspawn. The only things you keep are the racial flight and ability modifiers. Everything else is stripped away by becoming a Dragonborn. So even if you COULD chain Dragonspawn to Dragonwrought to Dragonborn, Dragonborn would neuter most of the benefits of the first step.
I'm fairly sure it will work if you do it in this sequence:
1. Dragonwrought Kobold. You lose the Humanoid type, which would normally prevent you from getting Dragonspawn. However...
2. Add Dragonborn of Bahamut. No RAW requirement says you have to be Humanoid to undergo the rite of rebirth...but two bits come together. First, under Racial Traits, it says, "Dragonborn are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth." Then, under The Mechanics of Rebirth, it says, "Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype." Therefore, the former indicates you gain the Humanoid type and the Dragonblood subtype, while the latter indicates you retain your original type and subtypes (which, for a Dragonwrought Kobold, is Dragon + whatever elemental subtype you have).
3. Add the Dragonspawn template, which you now qualify for because you are Humanoid again.
Edit: Though I'm not sure you get a whole lot for this. Dragonspawn doesn't seem like it would stack well with Dragonborn. You basically get every Aspect from Dragonspawn, and they don't look like they stack? The darkvision wouldn't, anyway. Further, since it says "your type becomes Monstrous Humanoid" (emphasis added), you'd lose the only lingering benefit of Dragonwrought Kobold (the Dragon type). And if you were a White Dragonspawn, you'd only end up with a net +4 Dex, +4 Con, which...not bad, but certainly not that impressive for such an investment. Red, of course, would be best...but you're still getting (in effect) -4 Str and not much else from Kobold.
Except the sidebar for Dragonborn also says this:
Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype.
The transformation has a number of poorly written aspects.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to make what I am/was looking for clear, I am aiming for a gish (the way we do LA buyoff +3 isn't a struggle). I was hope for:
A. both breath weapons ( a huuuge stretch I know ) but I think Dragonborn's is better in the long run, dragonspawn better at low levels.
B. wings ( from dragonspawn 'cuz lvl 1 flight of course ).
C. leaving dragonborn aspect to be the improved senses.
So, I would have all three aspects of dragonborn (1 or 2 even better).
I would need a good argument for the DM (especially since I am being allowed to take Loredrake <BIGGRIN>
Would also love to do the Venerable thing but then there is this:
RotD page 8 "Age: After a dragonborn underoes the Rite of Rebirth,she emerges as an adult creature regardless of her previous
age. If she lives for 200 years (see Table 1–1, page 10),
she enters middle age."
Negating the +3 to all mental stats, right? Or not?
And please, let us not rehash the whole True Dragon debate..I get Loredrake, Simple deal. Over with.
I would love to incorporate all three (four if you count venerable) but something tells me I am gonna have to pick just two.
Thank you for your time and consideration gentlebeings of the playground.
Q208 By RAW - Dragonborn Dragonwrought Kobold with a Dragonspawn Template - Doable? or Not?
A 208 Short answer: Yes.
Explanation if Needed/Desired: Dragonspawn is an Inherited Template (one that is part of the creature from its birth) in all but name, so it would be applied before the Dragonwrought feat (which changes the Kobold's creature type to Dragon). While some of the text implies Dragonborn was intended for Humanoid creatures, any creature type may undergo the Rite of Rebirth.
There are 2 major problems with this answer.
1: Dragonspawn is an acquired template.
Created through a hideous method that transforms humanoids into draconianlike creatures by fusing the mind and soul of the victim with the shard of a draconian's,
They are "created" but also "transformed". The bit about "fusing the mind and soul" makes it more apparent that the creature being transformed is an already built creature (ie, at least level 1) however.
2: Dragonborn lose ALL the fancy stuff you get from Dragonspawn. The only things you keep are the racial flight and ability modifiers. Everything else is stripped away by becoming a Dragonborn. So even if you COULD chain Dragonspawn to Dragonwrought to Dragonborn, Dragonborn would neuter most of the benefits of the first step.
I'm fairly sure it will work if you do it in this sequence:
1. Dragonwrought Kobold. You lose the Humanoid type, which would normally prevent you from getting Dragonspawn. However...
2. Add Dragonborn of Bahamut. No RAW requirement says you have to be Humanoid to undergo the rite of rebirth...but two bits come together. First, under Racial Traits, it says, "Dragonborn are humanoids with the dragonblood subtype and any other subtypes they had before undergoing the Rite of Rebirth." Then, under The Mechanics of Rebirth, it says, "Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype." Therefore, the former indicates you gain the Humanoid type and the Dragonblood subtype, while the latter indicates you retain your original type and subtypes (which, for a Dragonwrought Kobold, is Dragon + whatever elemental subtype you have).
3. Add the Dragonspawn template, which you now qualify for because you are Humanoid again.
Edit: Though I'm not sure you get a whole lot for this. Dragonspawn doesn't seem like it would stack well with Dragonborn. You basically get every Aspect from Dragonspawn, and they don't look like they stack? The darkvision wouldn't, anyway. Further, since it says "your type becomes Monstrous Humanoid" (emphasis added), you'd lose the only lingering benefit of Dragonwrought Kobold (the Dragon type). And if you were a White Dragonspawn, you'd only end up with a net +4 Dex, +4 Con, which...not bad, but certainly not that impressive for such an investment. Red, of course, would be best...but you're still getting (in effect) -4 Str and not much else from Kobold.
Except the sidebar for Dragonborn also says this:
Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype.
The transformation has a number of poorly written aspects.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just to make what I am/was looking for clear, I am aiming for a gish (the way we do LA buyoff +3 isn't a struggle). I was hope for:
A. both breath weapons ( a huuuge stretch I know ) but I think Dragonborn's is better in the long run, dragonspawn better at low levels.
B. wings ( from dragonspawn 'cuz lvl 1 flight of course ).
C. leaving dragonborn aspect to be the improved senses.
So, I would have all three aspects of dragonborn (1 or 2 even better).
I would need a good argument for the DM (especially since I am being allowed to take Loredrake <BIGGRIN>
Would also love to do the Venerable thing but then there is this:
RotD page 8 "Age: After a dragonborn underoes the Rite of Rebirth,she emerges as an adult creature regardless of her previous
age. If she lives for 200 years (see Table 1–1, page 10),
she enters middle age."
Negating the +3 to all mental stats, right? Or not?
And please, let us not rehash the whole True Dragon debate..I get Loredrake, Simple deal. Over with.
I would love to incorporate all three (four if you count venerable) but something tells me I am gonna have to pick just two.
Thank you for your time and consideration gentlebeings of the playground.