Warblade Gish? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

OverdrivePrime

2007-09-13, 01:43 PM

After poring over (and loving) the Tome of Battle, I reached the conclusion that it would be a minimum of eight kinds of awesome to play a warblade gish of some sort. However, after reading over the class features and requirements, it's become rapidly apparent that there aren't a lot of prestige classes that foster Martial Adept growth as well as advancing caster level. Sure, there's the Jade Phoenix Mage in ToB, but I can't say that I'm a fan. I'd prefer to stick with Iron Heart and Diamond Mind for my focused disciplines.

I'm looking for either blended melee/magic competency, or mostly melee competency.

Sure, I could just go Wizard (or Wu Jen) 6, Warblade 14, for +17 BAB, level 17 initiator, and 9th level maneuvers, and 3rd level spells, but I think I should be able to do better. I'm starting off this character at level 7, so that'd probably make for a Wiz 2/War 5 blend.

Gish prestige classes are harder to get into in general for the Warblade because of their lack of proficiency with martial projectile weapons. Even if it were even slightly advantageous to a warblade, the Eldritch Knight class would require a level of fighter/ranger/barbarian/somebody with full weapon proficiency. In theory, I could get around that by playing an elf wu jen/warblade thanks to the wu jen's simple weapon proficiency and the elf's proficiency with bows.

Even so, what's a Wu Jen 5/ Warblade 1/ Eldritch Knight x get me? A guy who's a passable caster, has three weak martial maneuvers and pitiful hit points. I can accept being good at melee and okay and magic. I don't want to accept being lousy at melee and okay at magic. A wizard can do that on his own.

Ideally, I'd like to get at least four levels of Warblade into this build by level 10. More is nice, but I can take the martial study feat a few times.

Any suggestions? I don't currently have any of the new Complete books from this year (complete mage, scoundrel, champion) but I'd be willing to pick them up if they've got something that can help.

Darrin

2007-09-13, 02:31 PM

Ideally, I'd like to get at least four levels of Warblade into this build by level 10. More is nice, but I can take the martial study feat a few times.

Any suggestions? I don't currently have any of the new Complete books from this year (complete mage, scoundrel, champion) but I'd be willing to pick them up if they've got something that can help.

I'd reconsider Jade Phoenix Mage. Full BAB, 8 caster levels, Divine Spirit maneuvers/stances (standard action = attack + heal, and Aura of Chaos + Greatsword), and the capstone looks like loads of fun. Take another look at their stance-like abilities, they get something very similar to Arcane Strike and the ability to empower/quicken spells with an attack. Find out if your DM will allow Precocious Apprentice, which would allow you into JPM with only one level of Wizard. If you're not worried about preserving caster levels, then Eldritch Knight really doesn't measure up.

You might want to consider Wiz 3/Swash 3/Warblade X, which is several flavors of awesome and has great Int synergy.

Warblade 1/Duskblade 5 also leads nicely into JPM.

Could you be more specific on what aspect of melee you'd like to focus on? THF, TWF, AoO-monster, Stormguard-whore?

The Tome of Battle Build Compendium has a variety of excellent sample builds and a lot of good advice:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=683941

MeklorIlavator

2007-09-13, 02:41 PM

You may be able to talk to your dm to change the focus of Jade Pheonix Mage. Its not like it would seriously unbalance the class or anything if it was a 1 for 1 trade in disciplines.

OverdrivePrime

2007-09-13, 02:59 PM

Darrin, Thanks for the advice. After re-reading Jade Phoenix mage, I actually really do like it. For some reason I was looking down my nose at its abilities because of its focus on fire effects. Just about every major enemy I encounter tends to have Fire resistance. Still, that's hardly the whole prestige class.

Additionally, Emerald Immolation is indeed freakin' sweet.

Hmm... maybe I will go this route. I'm thinking of going Wu Jen 4 / Warblade 2 / JPM x at this point. A highlight for me is that I could be casting Giant Size at level 16 with one more level of Wu Jen or a caster-level boosting PRC.

Thanks very much for the advice, and the link!

I had been planning on going in as a human w/ a bastard sword and focusing on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart for verstility and a very martial focus. I had sort of ignored the Devoted Spirit maneuvers because I don't like the Crusader class all that much, but I'll give them another look. Thanks guys!

Darrin

2007-09-13, 03:32 PM

I had been planning on going in as a human w/ a bastard sword and focusing on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart for verstility and a very martial focus.

[QUOTE=OverdrivePrime;3187475]
I had sort of ignored the Devoted Spirit maneuvers because I don't like the Crusader class all that much, but I'll give them another look. Thanks guys!

I, too, dearly dearly love the bastard sword, but it costs a feat (which can be priceless in a good ToB build) and if you're going to snag Aura of Chaos, Greatsword is much better (2d6 damage, reroll 6's).

And I also turned my nose up at the Crusader, but it's definately worth another look. Crusaders make some of the most powerful tanks in the game, and their ability to attack and heal in the same action makes them extremely difficult to take down. As most Clerics can tell you, trying to decide whether to spend the round healing rather than attacking can be a bit of a tactical quandary, but Crusaders can do both. And while their recovery mechanic sounds like it stinks, it also doesn't require any actions on their part, so they can keep attacking and using maneuvers every round without pausing to recover.

The downside to Crusader is the somewhat lackluster selection of maneuvers, lack of boosts, and not much full-round or multiple attack maneuvers. And while Desert Wind offers a lot more boosts/extra attack/area effect maneuvers, it's hard to grab both while building toward the really cool "top sh elf" maneuvers.

If you're going with an Int-based caster, though, stick with Warblade and if you're short prereqs, use Martial Study to get what you need.

lord_khaine

2007-09-13, 03:51 PM

grapping a lv of monk and the carmendine monk feat from forgotten realms would give you int to ac, something that could be quite usefull as its allready your main casting stat.

Merlin the Tuna

2007-09-13, 03:53 PM

The Crusader's recovery method is indeed the best in the book thanks to it not requiring any actions. The catch of course is that it's a bit annoying to actually use.

Person_Man

2007-09-13, 04:04 PM

ShneekeyTheLost

2007-09-13, 04:19 PM

Sadly, I will not play Crusader because I refuse to have random factor prevent me from using the maneuvers I would have chosen at the beginning of combat. That and I consider the whole Furious Counterstrike/Steely Resolve thing to be more than a bit silly. Maybe if I go Swordsage/Master of 9, I'll be able to pick up the Devoted Spirit stances/maneuvers I want...

OverdrivePrime

2007-09-20, 01:07 PM

Hey there campers. Thanks for all your help before - you really got me thinking. I wasn't even considering the Duskblade, because it doesn't get 9 levels of spells. However, after reading it, I noticed that it does get five levels of frickin' sweet spells. Plus the good BAB, good will and fort saves, and arcane channeling sure don't hurt. So that's a definite possibility. The problem is that I need to take 5 (6 really) levels of this along with a level of martial adept to qualify for Jade Phoenix Mage.

I don't care about the armored mage bit so much - a mithril chain shirt with the twilight enchantment works beautifully for any arcane caster, and it's pretty cheap to boot - 5,250 gold? Sold!

Alternatively, I was looking at the Beguiler - another class that I had almost completely ignored. The beguiler gets a crapload of skill points, and several pretty splendid abilities, as well as a huge - if specialized - spell list. My only problem is that the Beguiler's spell list doesn't have full synergy with the Jade Phoenix Mage's level six Firebird Stance ability, since Beguilers don't have any fire spells on their list.

Even so, I'm sort of favoring the Beguiler right now. I like how a beguiler/warblade has two bases covered - melee and mental domination. Where one doesn't work, the other is amost sure to succeed. Plus, this gets me by my hangup with evocation spells - they aren't really useful unless you're clearing out crowds, and I intend for this character to be more of a combat surgeon. Additionally, the beguiler seems a bit more favorable than the duskblade for this sort of gish because the beguiler has higher spell levels and can access them much faster. That means that the Jade Phoenix Mage's arcane wrath ability is that much more potent when I can afford to give up a 5th level spell or two during combat.

Whaddaya think? Beguiler? Duskblade? Stick with my Wu Jen idea? Kick them all to the curb and be a Wizard?

I guess my last question is in regard to weapon choice. I understand why my ol' pal, bastard sword, isn't a good choice due to limited feats. However, can I go with a nice, sexy two-handed sword and still cast? Does weapon choice affect my martial maneuvers in the slightest?

Darrin

2007-09-20, 01:43 PM

Whaddaya think? Beguiler? Duskblade? Stick with my Wu Jen idea? Kick them all to the curb and be a Wizard?

You might want to check your DM's opinion on Precocious Apprentice... this would allow you to dip Sor/Wiz for 1 level and still qualify for JPM after level 6. Other than that, I'm not all that familiar with either Beguiler or Duskblade focuses on BAB, while Beguiler has faster spell progression. I'd recommend Beguiler, since the fewer non-Martial Adept levels you take, the higher your Initiator Level will be.

I guess my last question is in regard to weapon choice. I understand why my ol' pal, bastard sword, isn't a good choice due to limited feats. However, can I go with a nice, sexy two-handed sword and still cast?

You can cast with a two-handed weapon. Releasing one hand to cast a spell or draw ammunition is a free action.

Does weapon choice affect my martial maneuvers in the slightest?

It depends... if you're working towards Aura of Chaos (DS6, Stance), then you want to stick with the ol' greatsword (2d6 damage, two chances to reroll those 6's). If you're spending your feats on metamagic/spellcasting, then go with the greatsword and pick up Power Attack if you can spare the feat.

If you're focusing on TWF/TC/BloodClaw Master, then a light Tiger Claw weapon would probably be best (kukri?). If you spent three feats on Martial Study: Cloak of Deception, Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance and then Shadow Blade, daggers work with both Shadow Hand and BloodClaw Master requirements.

RTGoodman

2007-09-20, 02:30 PM

My only problem is that the Beguiler's spell list doesn't have full synergy with the Jade Phoenix Mage's level six Firebird Stance ability, since Beguilers don't have any fire spells on their list.

I'm away from both ToB and PHB2 right now (letting people borrow books sucks :smallyuk: ), but don't Beguilers have a class ability to learn an arcane spell from the Illusion or Enchantment schools (and maybe one other) at every 4th level or something?

Because couldn't you just pick up Shadow Evocation (4th level spell) or Greater Shadow Evocation (7th level spell) and use it/them to cast Evocation (Fire) spells? I'm not sure what the highest level spell you could get as Beguiler is (or what exactly the Firebird Stance does), but that'll let you do some fire damage as a Beguiler.

Fax Celestis

2007-09-20, 02:34 PM

Another one you may not have considered is Spellthief 1/Duskblade 3/Warblade 1/Assassin 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Unseen Seer 2. More roguelike, but still very smashy. Also, lots of good fire spells in the Assassin list, like fire shuriken, if you have the Spell Compendium.

Bosh

2007-09-20, 09:33 PM

With the exception of the duskblade, pretty much every useful gish build aims for high BaB and high caster level (usually 9th level spells). Throwing in just a few levels of caster in a melee build is a very good way of gimping your character.

Edea

2007-09-20, 09:43 PM

ToB gishes are divine casters. RKV >>>> JPM.

Even with JPM, Crusader is definitely a better starting class for a gish than Warblade. Sure you want the latter route? Sorry :( . Some builds sneak in Sublime Chord to minimize the loss of caster levels.

kme

2007-09-21, 07:23 AM

You may also wish to look at Abjurant Champion.It is a 5 levels class from complete mage that gives full BAB and casting and other solid abilities.It is one of the best gish PRC for almost every build.

Dr. Weasel

2007-09-21, 05:39 PM

I'm a fan of Person_Man's build (though I might swap Swashbuckler 1/Barbarian 1[Ferocity Variant] for Rogue 2). It's useful as a tank for its low-level career and smoothly transitions to a proper Gish build without any of the low-level unarmored d4 HP nonsense that usually hurts spellcasting sword-folks. Just keep the Combat focus the primary one for your Chameleon until tenth level when you jump in as a group buffer with good hitpoints, useful abilities and third level spells. Unfortunately you cap out your Warblade levels at ECL 6 so it might not count as a Martial Adept build, but compared to other fighter-mages it's clean, easy and streamlined.

Swooper

2007-09-21, 06:26 PM

...though I might swap Swashbuckler 1/Barbarian 1 for Rogue 2...
Sorry for going completely off topic here, but I must ask: How does Swashbuckler and Barbarian make sense at the same time? Barbarian being a big hulk of a wilderness warrior with a bad temper, and swashbuckler being the chandelier-swinging, singing-to-fair-maidens-on-balconies-after-bedtime, duelling-at-noon-and-again-after-teatime cityslicker?

Thinker

2007-09-21, 06:34 PM

OK, you may not like this, but consider:

Rogue 2/Warblade 4 2/Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) 4/Swiftblade (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=2ea&q=swiftblade+site%3Aforums.gleemax.com%2F&btnG=Search) 10

Rogue is needed for the Skill reqs for Chameleon. Evasion is fun too.
Chameleon gives you fast caster progression off of the Wizard list.
Swiftblade gives you full BAB, 6/10 caster progression, and a huge action advantage at high levels.

Features:

18/20 BAB
6th level Int based spells
A metric ton of special abilities

Are you sure this works? In the Chameleon Class Features it says:

You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.

Dr. Weasel

2007-09-21, 07:29 PM

Sorry for going completely off topic here, but I must ask: How does Swashbuckler and Barbarian make sense at the same time? Barbarian being a big hulk of a wilderness warrior with a bad temper, and swashbuckler being the chandelier-swinging, singing-to-fair-maidens-on-balconies-after-bedtime, duelling-at-noon-and-again-after-teatime cityslicker?
Think of it like a d20 Modern Fast Hero 1/Strong Hero 1. I picture a calm collected guy who occasionally just snaps. If you're using Able Learner for Swashbuckler-y abilities, there's nothing crunch-wise that has to support a "wilderness warrior" at all.

What Thinker said
This is an extreme let-down. I thought I was going to be able to combine the three nifty-est classes in the game (and Swash/Barb) into one beautiful gish. Well schucks to that idea then.

namo

2007-09-22, 07:57 AM

As written, the Chameleon/Swiftblade build doesn't work. What would happen with the Chameleon abilities not related to Arcane Focus (which somehow progresses) ? But you can discuss it with your DM...

Duskblade is good and the easiest path, but except on the short term it's sub-optimal. Beguiler doesn't have a lot of buffs, so it's not a good gish base. Wu Jen works ; but (as usual...) Wizard is better - especially with access to the Spell Compendium. Heroics, Bladeweave...

JPM is not as powerful as RKV (which borders on broken...), but Emerald Immolation is in IMHO the coolest ability ever published in D&D (of course after posting I'll remember another one that I find cooler :smallsmile: ).

Callos_DeTerran

2007-09-22, 09:53 AM

What are you looking for as part of the gish? Blasting ability? Battlefield control? Something else entirely?

Cause I know peoples feelings on how weak the class is but a single level of warlock qualifies someone for the JPM (Some least invocations count as 2nd level spells). You'd have to talk to your DM about altering the classes flavor and mechanics to suit a warlock but other then that you get cheap long-range damage, some invocations that'd be useful to a melee fighter (Fell Flight springs to mind since flying is a problem for fighters), and almost full martial progression depending on how you handle it. If your just going for long-range damage warlock and consultation about altering the JPM with your DM may be the course for you.

Dr. Weasel

2007-09-22, 11:00 AM

As written, the Chameleon/Swiftblade build doesn't work. What would happen with the Chameleon abilities not related to Arcane Focus (which somehow progresses) ?
It could work if you went Wizard 5/Warblade 1/Chameleon 4/Swiftblade 10 if you could get Bluff and Disguise as class skills somehow (I don't doubt it's possible somehow, especially if you have setting-specific feats available), but that would leave you incredibly squishy at low levels, you'd be very un-Warbade and you'd still only able to cast 6th level spells (no gain over Wizard 2/Warblade 4/Abjurant Champion 4/Swiftblade 10).

The other Focuses would remain the same as they'd be at Fourth level Chameleon.

Dr. Weasel

2007-09-22, 10:47 PM

Alternative (Though I feel sleazy suggesting it):

Rogue 1/Warblade 4/Trapsmith 1/Chameleon 4/Swiftblade 10

Utilizing first-level-Haste-Trapsmith abilities, you easily meet SB prerequisites and Swiftblade can legally advance any arcane-casting class' progression (in this case, Chameleon because it's faster and all-around better than Trapsmith casting).

You can use your floating feat to pick up slightly more advanced stances or maneuvers, adjustable each day which will keep you at least a bit more Warblade-based. You pull off an incredibly flexible build (not quite as flexible as straight Chameleon, but completely laden in nifty abilities and tolerable Intelligence synergy.

OverdrivePrime

2007-09-24, 07:35 AM

Thanks again for all the help guys. Sadly, swiftblade isn't allowed in, though that's one freakin' cool class. And as usual, the DM has banned Precocious Apprentice.

After reading and balancing and reading some more, I think I'm going to go with Wizard 4 / Warblade 2 / Jade Phoenix Mage with some Abjurant Champion mixed in, at least to level 2. I was fiending for the Wu Jen mostly for the Watchful Spirit, Magnetism (for ranged disarms) and eventually for Giant Size. Unfortunately, depending on my builds, I wouldn't be getting Giant Size until around level 16 or 17, which is longer than I'm willing to wait for serious payback for the Wu Jen's otherwise inferior spell list. Watchful spirit is nice, particularly for this guy who focuses on being a duelist / gloryhog, but it certainly can't beat out the wizard spell list, particularly combined with the Abjurant Champion's low level abilities. Thanks to the guys who suggested that PrC. It's a winner!

OverdrivePrime

2007-10-01, 09:46 AM

Alright guys, am I doing it wrong?

Last night I got to play my character for the first time. He's 7th level, Wizard 4 / Warblade 2 / Jade Phoenix Mage 1, and I've equipped him with a Mithril Chain Shirt +1 of Twilight (no arcane spell failure), a Falchion, and a few other nifty things. In my infinite wisdom I neglected to pick up a ranged weapon (which will be rectified as soon as I can get my hands on a crossbow), and only prepared one ranged spell. Whee!

So anyway, I would up getting in a duel with a sorcerer, who specialized in ray spells and touch attacks using spectral hand. I had veil of shadows cast, to give me some nice concealment, and my prepared maneuvers were Moment of Perfect Mind, Wall of Blades and Foehammer. The sorcerer took to the skies swiftly and began trying to pound on me with either summoned creatures or ray spells and ranged touch spells. Every time he'd cast a ray or ranged touch at me, I'd counter with Wall of Blades, and then on my next action, I'd use the Warblade's ability to recover all expended maneuvers as a swift action followed by either attacking a summoned creature, or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round.

So, was I breaking the rules? Can I really make a counter in the same round that I've recovered my maneuvers?

Eventually, the sorcerer ran out of spells, the only ways that I was able to hurt him was by firing a ray of frost (3 damage, baby!), and casting true strike and then throwing my falchion at him when he came too close. He flew off and vowed revenge, and I wandered back to find a healer that could heal me of my ridiculous ability damage (maximized touch of idiocy, maximized ray of clumsiness or something (did some 7 dex damage)).