To Tackle Gods

[Ruethgar]

I have a character that needs to be able to go toe to toe with gods without a divine rank. He already has x10 the health of Zeus and a little higher ability scores. Found a tricky little way to be immune to SDAs, has SR of 42, two iterations of 50% miss chance, one breachable by Ghost Touch/Force but nothing else, the other requires True Sight and an opposed caster check vs CL 31 to breach. He has fast healing of 150 and can get 15 full round actions per turn(14 can only be used on magic).

He is undoubtedly a powerhouse, but I’m just not sure he can withstand an assault of 23 maximized spells per round.

[DeTess]

To get an answer to your question, you might want to include exact details of how the gods work mechanically in your setting.

[OgresAreCute]

To get an answer to your question, you might want to include exact details of how the gods work mechanically in your setting.

Since he's bringing up Zeus and SDAs I can only imagine they're using stat blocks from Deities and Demigods

[Ruethgar]

Yes, using Deities and Demigods for the gods.

I suppose I could try to just do enough damage every round to force a concentration check of 31+, that would prevent 20 Automatic spells per round, would be dead if I can’t keep it up, but he’s only supposed to be able to stand against gods, not necessarily obliterate them.

[Erit]

Don't the vast majority of gods outlined in Deities and Demigods have a line in their statblock that explicitly calls them out as immortal? That plus being Outsiders (who don't need to eat or sleep as I recall) means you can't actually expect to win unless you're similarly able to fight perpetually without need for rest. Otherwise Boccob will just wait you out and then CDG you once you've fainted from overexertion.

[Ruethgar]

He is Endless, sleepless and can replenish most of his magic mid fight. In a battle of attrition with gods he probably wouldn’t be able to make it, but short term I’m shooting for him to at least be able to beat the ever-loving hell out of them and get away.

Of course any D&D game dealing with gods is going to have to be more narrative than mechanical, but I’m just trying to get him to the point where it is mechanically feasible even if improbable.

About ready to give him a Mirror Mephit and be done with it lol. Divine Ranks are so OP.

[Kayblis]

You probably can't compete with major gods at all because they have Alter Reality and usually the highest possible casting power(not including tens of spells per turn). It's hard to judge a narrative force mechanically because you'd need to add so many special restrictions on their narrative power that it's dubious if they are even the same god anymore. It seems to be you're assuming a 1v1 fight with no preparation on the god's part, no divinations or automatic knowledge about you(something unreasonable for someone so powerful and not a god), no minions or special realm powers(so you'd have to face them outside their own home), no 10000-year-old-wise-overseer tricks and plans a god might have, and no fleeing to return with overwhelming forces later.

So yeah, when you strip away most of what makes a god, you know, a god, you could probably face one head-on and survive, and with some luck and preparation you could even win.

[Erit]

You probably can't compete with major gods at all because they have Alter Reality and usually the highest possible casting power(not including tens of spells per turn). It's hard to judge a narrative force mechanically because you'd need to add so many special restrictions on their narrative power that it's dubious if they are even the same god anymore. It seems to be you're assuming a 1v1 fight with no preparation on the god's part, no divinations or automatic knowledge about you(something unreasonable for someone so powerful and not a god), no minions or special realm powers(so you'd have to face them outside their own home), no 10000-year-old-wise-overseer tricks and plans a god might have, and no fleeing to return with overwhelming forces later.

So yeah, when you strip away most of what makes a god, you know, a god, you could probably face one head-on and survive, and with some luck and preparation you could even win.

Wait, that's what makes a god? I thought that was just standard operating procedure for full casters. Well, barring the realm powers, Alter Reality (maybe) and 10000-year-old-wise-overseer tricks (maybe).

[tyckspoon]

I have a character that needs to be able to go toe to toe with gods without a divine rank. He already has x10 the health of Zeus and a little higher ability scores. Found a tricky little way to be immune to SDAs, has SR of 42, two iterations of 50% miss chance, one breachable by Ghost Touch/Force but nothing else, the other requires True Sight and an opposed caster check vs CL 31 to breach. He has fast healing of 150 and can get 15 full round actions per turn(14 can only be used on magic).

He is undoubtedly a powerhouse, but I’m just not sure he can withstand an assault of 23 maximized spells per round.

I'm hoping/assuming you already have save-or-die protection covered, either by sufficiently high save bonuses + rerolls/do not auto-fail on a 1 protection or by being inherently immune to anything that matters. If you are, the last thing you need is to either be immune to HP damage (regeneration + immune to nonlethal damage + immune to whatever can pierce your regen) or unable to be killed by HP damage (Persistant/Permanent Delay Death type effect + able to act normally when at or below 0 HP.) Plus some way of protecting any critical spell effects from being Dispelled or Disjunctioned. That should give you a reasonable shot at fighting a god's statblock as presented in Deities & Demigods, although there isn't a lot you can reasonably do if you have to deal with one using similar optimization tactics - they can do anything you can do, and they have much better resources for doing it (in particular using Alter Reality to turn any of their spell-based defenses into permanent non-spell effects, so you can't blow them away with optimized Dispels or Disjunctions.)

[Helluin]

How many free levels of metamagic can you get? Which spellcasting list are you using (do you have access to ALL spells, whether arcane or divine, or just all arcane/divine spells, or just specific spell list from a base class?) and how many HP does this Zeus have anyway?

With enough metamagic reducers and spell slots, twinned maximized Hellfire Storm can deal 2800 damage per round with your 15 standard actions. This damage allows no SR, no save, no energy resistance (it’s unspecified damage). Is that enough to kill the god in one round? What if you spend your swift actions to quicken this spell too, and/or use Time Stop and drop in a few supernatural (Dweomerkeeper) searing (Sandstorm) spell Delay Blast Fireball (bypasses energy resistance, deals half damage to creatures with fire immunity) as well?

[Remuko]

Don't the vast majority of gods outlined in Deities and Demigods have a line in their statblock that explicitly calls them out as immortal?

it says that it basically just means biological immortality. the book explicitly says they can be slain in martial or magical combat. (iirc)

[Sleven]

You don't.

At least, if they're played by anyone competent. If you absolutely have to, your best bet is fighting them at the base of the spire in the Outlands and making all your preparations (hell even conceiving the idea that you're going to take on a god in the first place) there as well. Being an epic spellcaster with custom spells is nigh-mandatory. If you can't accomplish both of those things, I wouldn't even try.

Every mechanical victory I've had over a god in D&D was a result of the above or someone not understanding the full extent of what SDAs are capable of. Each and every time it didn't feel earned (unless it was the result of roleplay and not just dice rolls).

Anyways, good luck.

EDIT: Most of the above recommendations are easily thwarted by any deity with access to Alter Reality. That's all they need, a single divine rank. It gets worse when they get the second divine rank and they're casting any epic spell they can dream of as what's essentially a mundane/extraordinary effect. Without limit, and without requiring a spellcraft check. No. You absolutely need to fight them at the base of the spire. That's non-negotiable.

[Telonius]

Going up against Zeus, as-written in Deities and Demigods?

Well, first you Shapechange into a Shambling Mound... :smallbiggrin:

[Goaty14]

1) Improved Grapple, Polymorphed into the biggest form you can get, etc
2) Initiate a Grapple with Zeus
3) Pin Zeus

Congrats! You have now tackled a God!

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'd personally suggest some form of the Uzumaki-Hebert Technique. Find some psychological weakness to exploit, some flaw that you can stick a metaphorical stake into before pounding at it, amplifying it and revealing it for the weakness it is. Some hypocrisy or anxiety or love or fear, anything that can give you the leverage you need to force this god to see its own inadequacy. The details will depend on the psyche of the god in question, of course, but if you search long and hard enough, you should be able to find the traction for any goal you could possibly have in mind without needing to throw a single punch.
In other words, see how high you can boost your Psychiatry check without taking the Hippocratic Oath.

[Telonius]

I'd personally suggest some form of the Uzumaki-Hebert Technique. Find some psychological weakness to exploit, some flaw that you can stick a metaphorical stake into before pounding at it, amplifying it and revealing it for the weakness it is. Some hypocrisy or anxiety or love or fear, anything that can give you the leverage you need to force this god to see its own inadequacy. The details will depend on the psyche of the god in question, of course, but if you search long and hard enough, you should be able to find the traction for any goal you could possibly have in mind without needing to throw a single punch.
In other words, see how high you can boost your Psychiatry check without taking the Hippocratic Oath.

::points surreptitiously in Hera's direction::

[Lotheb]

How are you getting immunity to SDAs? That's an impressive trick

[GreatWyrmGold]

::points surreptitiously in Hera's direction::
Isn't it kinda cheating to get another god to kill them for you?

[flappeercraft]

How are you getting immunity to SDAs? That's an impressive trick

Well I don't know about other SDA's but the most relevant will be the Hand of Death line. The Hand of Death line is all based around the destruction spell which has the death tag, that means that even if there is no save or sr or maximum range for the higher ones on the line a measly deathward will protect you from it. However if the deity notices that and you get caught in an AMF or similar then you're screwed.