Arcane Trickster or Scout Rogue

[Expected]

Hello, everyone. I am about to start a new 5e campaign as a player and I am having trouble deciding between an Arcane Trickster or a Scout for the Rogue class. I have the rp aspect figured out, I just need help maximising DPR.

My character is a Wood Elf with the following ability scores:

Strength: 8 (-1)
Dexterity: 17 (+3)
Constitution: 15 (+2)
Intelligence: 8 (-1)
Wisdom: 16 (+3)
Charisma: 8 (-1)

At level 4, I am going to take the Elven Accuracy feat for the triple advantage and +1 Dex. This will help when I take Sharpshooter and opt to take the -5 attack and +10 damage (the decreased chance to hit is hopefully offset by trivantage). Somewhere between levels 4-19, I will take Resilient: Con for +1 Con and the saving throw proficiency. I will multi-class into Fighter for 1 level and Fighting Style: Archery so at level 20, I'll be Rogue 19/Fighter 1. I plan on using a longbow and hiding after each attack using Cunning Action, but I will have two daggers to engage in melee, if necessary.

Now for the decision between Arcane Trickster and Scout. On one hand, I can Haste myself to ready an action and, assuming I hit, use the extra action to apply Sneak Attack for that turn. On the other, I can get proficiency and expertise in Nature and Survival, advantage on initiative rolls, and Bonus Action Sneak Attack on a different enemy than the first. Arcane Trickster will guarantee Haste at high levels, assuming I won't have someone willing to buff me, while Scout gets the Sudden Strike feature at level 17. I realize at that point, that I won't be able to hide using Cunning Action and I would have to target enemies engaged in combat with my allies. Which would have higher DPR? Or would a melee Rogue with two melee weapons, Sentinel, and Mage Slayer be better in terms of DPR?

[Callak_Remier]

While min maxing is part of the game. Playing your character: personality and traits is just as important. Maybe try it level by level DPR isn't the point of Dungeons and Dragons

[nickl_2000]

Either one will work, do you have an idea of which one sounds more fun to play?

Also, what campaign are you playing? Do you know what the other PCs are playing?

[Exocist]

Hello, everyone. I am about to start a new 5e campaign as a player and I am having trouble deciding between an Arcane Trickster or a Scout for the Rogue class. I have the rp aspect figured out, I just need help maximising DPR.

My character is a Wood Elf with the following ability scores:

Strength: 8 (-1)
Dexterity: 17 (+3)
Constitution: 15 (+2)
Intelligence: 8 (-1)
Wisdom: 16 (+3)
Charisma: 8 (-1)

At level 4, I am going to take the Elven Accuracy feat for the triple advantage and +1 Dex. This will help when I take Sharpshooter and opt to take the -5 attack and +10 damage (the decreased chance to hit is hopefully offset by trivantage). Somewhere between levels 4-19, I will take Resilient: Con for +1 Con and the saving throw proficiency. I will multi-class into Fighter for 1 level and Fighting Style: Archery so at level 20, I'll be Rogue 19/Fighter 1. I plan on using a longbow and hiding after each attack using Cunning Action, but I will have two daggers to engage in melee, if necessary.

Now for the decision between Arcane Trickster and Scout. On one hand, I can Haste myself to ready an action and, assuming I hit, use the extra action to apply Sneak Attack for that turn. On the other, I can get proficiency and expertise in Nature and Survival, advantage on initiative rolls, and Bonus Action Sneak Attack on a different enemy than the first. Arcane Trickster will guarantee Haste at high levels, assuming I won't have someone willing to buff me, while Scout gets the Sudden Strike feature at level 17. I realize at that point, that I won't be able to hide using Cunning Action and I would have to target enemies engaged in combat with my allies. Which would have higher DPR? Or would a melee Rogue with two melee weapons, Sentinel, and Mage Slayer be better in terms of DPR?

Never use the -5/+10 of Sharpshooter on a Rogue. The penalty to-hit WAY outpaces the damage you gain from it. Even with Archery Fighting Style and Tri-Advantage, you only have one attack per turn (two per round with haste) - you don't want to miss that.

Arcane Trickster and Melee is the best for DPR. Scout isn't really DPR focused and ranged Trickster doesn't have as many double-attack tricks.

Level 3: Always have advantage due to Find Familiar. If your DM allows, take one level of Warlock (Raven Queen) so they can't kill your familiar (well, they can, but then you have advantage on EVERY attack against them for the next 24 hours). Take Booming Blade and never look back to the days of normal attacks.
Level 7: Use Mirror Image to have nearly guaranteed attacks off sentinel. The Mirror Images count as allies, however, because they are illusions they don't have stat blocks (which means no feats). So you can redirect their attack towards your mirror images in order to trigger Sentinel.
Level 14: You get haste, which means double sneak attacks per turn guaranteed.

I would suggest your feats be Sentinel (Level 4) and Elven Accuracy (Level 8, choose DEX), your starting stats should be

STR: 8
DEX: 15 (+2 = 17)
CON: 15
INT: 8 (Just don't pick any spells that require saving throws or spell attacks and you should be good).
WIS: 15 (+1 = 16)
CHA: 8

From then on, do +2 DEX at level 10 and Resilient (Constitution) at level 12.

[Mikal]

While min maxing is part of the game. Playing your character: personality and traits is just as important. Maybe try it level by level DPR isn't the point of Dungeons and Dragons

Since this doesn't answer his question at all...

I'd go Scout. AT is usually better IMO with a melee rogue since they now get access to Booming Blade for their melee attacks. Since you're going full range Scout's increased mobility and proficiencies help you better.

That being said, if you would rather do melee over range, ignore two weapon fighting, go Arcane Trickster, and use elven advantage, booming blade, and go with single weapon strikes. Personally with that, your familiar, and whatnot, you'll do more damage on average.

EDIT: Whoops, ninja'd!

[Expected]

Playing your character: personality and traits is just as important . . . DPR isn't the point of Dungeons and Dragons

True. However, I would like to make my character as effective in combat as possible while still being fun to roleplay.


Either one will work, do you have an idea of which one sounds more fun to play?

Also, what campaign are you playing? Do you know what the other PCs are playing?

Arcane Trickster would probably be more fun because of the utility that the spells provide, but Scout would be more fun to roleplay since it combines well with Wood Elf beliefs and supports the outlander lifestyle. Unfortunately, I don't know the campaign or the other players because I found the group while looking through forum posts of people looking for DnD groups. It's probably homebrew that uses RAW/RAI and nothing too made up (I'm assuming this because the DM did not mention a module).

[nickl_2000]

Arcane Trickster would probably be more fun because of the utility that the spells provide, but Scout would be more fun to roleplay since it combines well with Wood Elf beliefs and supports the outlander lifestyle. Unfortunately, I don't know the campaign or the other players because I found the group while looking through forum posts of people looking for DnD groups. It's probably homebrew that uses RAW/RAI and nothing too made up (I'm assuming this because the DM did not mention a module).

Well that doesn't help at all :smallbiggrin:

Given this situation, I would go Arcane Trickster. Having more flexibility and utility will make a difference when you don't know what the rest of the party will be. You can use combat magic when you want to, but also have the flexibility of cantrips and social spells.

[Expected]

Arcane Trickster and Melee is the best for DPR. Scout isn't really DPR focused and ranged Trickster doesn't have as many double-attack tricks.



That being said, if you would rather do melee over range, ignore two weapon fighting, go Arcane Trickster, and use elven advantage, booming blade, and go with single weapon strikes. Personally with that, your familiar, and whatnot, you'll do more damage on average.

Thank you both for the suggestions and detailed explanations. If I were to choose melee, would Warcaster be a useful feat so I can Booming Blade during opportunity attacks? And because it would be difficult to hide for advantage, I'm assuming I'd be in the middle of the fight attacking the same enemies as my allies/mirror images? Should I use two daggers and have a longbow for when I need to attack something from a distance? And should I get Sharpshooter, not for the -5 +10, but for the long range on dagger throws and longbow shots? Also, should I switch to High Elf for the +1 Int and make Int 16 instead and dump Wis? Would 16 Int be more useful than 16 Wis?

[Mikal]

Thank you both for the suggestions and detailed explanations. If I were to choose melee, would Warcaster be a useful feat so I can Booming Blade during opportunity attacks? And because it would be difficult to hide for advantage, I'm assuming I'd be in the middle of the fight attacking the same enemies as my allies/mirror images? Should I use two daggers and have a longbow for when I need to attack something from a distance? And should I get Sharpshooter, not for the -5 +10, but for the long range on dagger throws and longbow shots?

I'd probably go Elven Advantage at 4, Dex to 20 at 8, Resilient Con at 10, and then War Caster at 12.

Personally, I see this as a hit and run attacker. Move in BB, move out with bonus action and increased speed as a Wood Elf. Whenever possible if you can't get advantage normally use your owl familiar to generate it. As such, sometimes you'll attack alone (which is slightly preferred, since the enemy then may need to choose between standing still, or eating additional damage from Booming Blade), and sometime's you'll attack with others (tacitly understanding the only extra damage comes from the initial Booming Blade attack, since the enemy will likely not move)

If you want to attack from a distance as a secondary, you'll do better not to get sharpshooter since other feats and ASIs will take priority, and it's your secondary mode of attack.

[Millface]

At level 5 you have a +7 to hit, and at that level ACs range from 12-16 or so, with 16 being the AC you want to throw math at when calculating damage potential.

This means you hit on a 9, or 55% of the time. With -5/+10 you instead hit on a 14, or a 35% chance. With regular advantage, and this math is weird but I think this goes to 45ish%, with triple advantage probability math goes out of my league but it'll be thereabout your original 55% if not higher.

So, with a longbow and sneak attack, no sharpshooter you're looking at 1d8+3d6+4 *.55, taking medians, this is 9.35 DPR against AC 16.

With Sharpshooter and no advantage its 1d8+3d6+14*.35, or 9.45 DPR. With Advantage it goes up to 12.15, and with triple advantage it goes to 15 DPR.

The extra damage, over the course of a combat with sharpshooter is absolutely, mathematically worth it, even without advantage, so let's put in a pin in that debate. Add in that you can choose to do it more often when AC is lower and the numbers just go up and up. But still, the base DPR, with no advantage at all, is still slightly higher with the sharpshooter feat.

As far as scout or trickster? Trickster gives you some defensive options, but if you're playing ranged the differences are mostly personal preference, neither really adds much in the way of extra damage with a bow.

I do wonder what the logic is behind taking fighter 1 but not going to 2? Rogue capstones are at 17, and action surge is one of if not the single best ability in 5e. Why not Rogue 18/Fighter 2?

[MrConsideration]

Ignoring DPR, I find the Arcane Trickster to be enormously fun to play and possessing greater utility. Dependent on the kind of campaign your DM runs, the scouting supplied by Find Familiar (and possible always-on advantage and sneak attack) can be incredibly strong. The same goes for Mage Hand Legerdemain. The actual AT features can be really strong with a little imagination.

Booming Blade and Cunning Action Disengage is another fun combination with good damage and soft control.

[Expected]

I do wonder what the logic is behind taking fighter 1 but not going to 2? Rogue capstones are at 17, and action surge is one of if not the single best ability in 5e. Why not Rogue 18/Fighter 2?

I agree about action surge. However, if I choose Arcane Trickster, then I can only multiclass into 1 level of another class otherwise I lose the ability to cast 4th-level spells. Exocist suggested a melee build using sentinel and mirror image for off-turn sneak attacks (which is amazing, by the way). Would a ranged attacker using a longbow, Sharpshooter, and Haste be comparable in terms of DPR?

[nickl_2000]

I agree about action surge. However, if I choose Arcane Trickster, then I can only multiclass into 1 level of another class otherwise I lose the ability to cast 4th-level spells. Exocist suggested a melee build using sentinel and mirror image for off-turn sneak attacks (which is amazing, by the way). Would a ranged attacker using a longbow, Sharpshooter, and Haste be comparable in terms of DPR?

I wouldn't worry to much about level 20. Even campaigns that get to level 20 (which are rare since most campaigns either break up or end sooner) don't spend a huge amount of time at level 20. So, if it makes a difference just consider that.

[Millface]

I agree about action surge. However, if I choose Arcane Trickster, then I can only multiclass into 1 level of another class otherwise I lose the ability to cast 4th-level spells. Exocist suggested a melee build using sentinel and mirror image for off-turn sneak attacks (which is amazing, by the way). Would a ranged attacker using a longbow, Sharpshooter, and Haste be comparable in terms of DPR?

A ranged attacker using LB, SS, Haste would have one sneak attack + 2 bow dice damage + dex x2 + 20 then multiply all of that, taking the median for dice damage, by .35, .5, and .6 respectively to get a very close estimation of your DPR with no advantage, regular advantage, and elven accuracy trivantage.

A melee build with sentinel can still haste, yes? And you can also use an offhand weapon for giggles (in case you get unlucky and miss). So there you'd have 4d6 light weapon dice + Two sneak attacks + dex mod x4 (if you take TWF instead of Archery). No -5 here, so you'd multiply this by .55 for no advantage and like .785 for advantage.

If you start with sentinel with V Human and dip fighter as your 5th level you should outdamage the bow at pretty much all levels. The more sneak dice you get, the more you can abuse the double sneak attack. The offhand dex damage plus the reaction attack dex damage from TWF gets you very near the raw damage of sharpshooter every round as well.

If you want to play an archer there are good builds for that, but a TWF (even without the feat) Arcane Trickster with a fighter dip and sentinel @1 with V Human has the highest DPR of any rogue I've been able to theory craft thus far. The best thing about it is that it does this with one less feat, because sharpshooter is necessary for an archer, while Dual Wielding isn't really necessary for a melee build that uses two weapon fighting on a rogue. Your illusions keep you alive, so you don't need the AC, and you're abusing sneak attacks and your Dex mod damage, so using d8s for your weapons instead of d6s adds a very minimal and really unnecessary boost.

[Willie the Duck]

I think people have made good arguments for why Elven Accuracy does not make using Sharpshooter's -5/+10 a good idea for a rogue. I would argue that instead of that and resilient:con, you should instead use your level 4 ASI to take +1 Dex/+1Con. The simple reason being that getting your build going by level 12 is more than half your campaign-career without these things. Yes, both resilience and trivantage are useful, but so is having the rounded-off stats early. Obviously, resilient:con is better than simply +1 to your con modifier, but (as a rogue) you will always be working on which of Con and Wis you need to boost your save for. With the ASI you save by doing this, you could eventually pick up Lucky and use it to boost whichever of those two saves you run into more. There are undoubtedly arguments against this, but I've found lots of benefit, overall, to rounding off two odd stats early in a character's career.

[Millface]

I think people have made good arguments for why Elven Accuracy does not make using Sharpshooter's -5/+10 a good idea for a rogue. I would argue that instead of that and resilient:con, you should instead use your level 4 ASI to take +1 Dex/+1Con. The simple reason being that getting your build going by level 12 is more than half your campaign-career without these things. Yes, both resilience and trivantage are useful, but so is having the rounded-off stats early. Obviously, resilient:con is better than simply +1 to your con modifier, but (as a rogue) you will always be working on which of Con and Wis you need to boost your save for. With the ASI you save by doing this, you could eventually pick up Lucky and use it to boost whichever of those two saves you run into more. There are undoubtedly arguments against this, but I've found lots of benefit, overall, to rounding off two odd stats early in a character's career.

If you mean that sharpshooter is better than not using sharpshooter even with NO advantage I agree with this.

If you're trying to state as others have that a greater to hit chance = more DPR than the +10 for sharpshooter I've debunked that already in this thread. Sharpshooter does more damage at all levels of advantage, from none to triple. My math didn't even account for the doubled crit chance you have when rolling 3 dice instead of 1 with elven accuracy. In general, crit being 5%, you take your weapon dice + sneak dice and multiply the median total by .05 and thats the DPR adjustment for critical hits. With Elven accuracy if you do get triple advantage you multiply this by .1 instead, double the DPR adjustment for critical hits. The higher the level, the better this becomes.

If you're going archer Sharpshooter is a clear winner in terms of raw damage. Elven Accuracy is more optional, though it does add raw damage, period. Having said that I do think the Melee build is more optimized and frees up a feat that you can instead put toward ability scores or yet another useful feat like resilient: wis or lucky (best feat in the game, imo)

[Expected]

I appreciate the detailed explanations as well as the math behind it. While I have decided to make a melee Arcane Trickster Rogue using this advice, please continue to provide suggestions as other people, including myself, could benefit. I do have a few more questions, if you don't mind?

I previously chose a Wood Elf and 16 Wisdom because I wasn't sure about the Rogue subclass. Now that I know I'm choosing AT, however, I can prioritize Intelligence instead (in the off-chance I need high spell save dc's). Would it be wiser to switch to High Elf for the +1 Int and 16 Intelligence? Or would it be wasted and Wisdom is more useful? Also, what would you suggest for melee weapons? Would two daggers (lower damage dice but can be thrown) be an effective choice? If not, then what?

[Millface]

I appreciate the detailed explanations as well as the math behind it. While I have decided to make a melee Arcane Trickster Rogue using this advice, please continue to provide suggestions as other people, including myself, could benefit. I do have a few more questions, if you don't mind?

I previously chose a Wood Elf and 16 Wisdom because I wasn't sure about the Rogue subclass. Now that I know I'm choosing AT, however, I can prioritize Intelligence instead (in the off-chance I need high spell save dc's). Would it be wiser to switch to High Elf for the +1 Int and 16 Intelligence? Or would it be wasted and Wisdom is more useful? Also, what would you suggest for melee weapons? Would two daggers (lower damage dice but can be thrown) be an effective choice? If not, then what?

In general your AT spells are going to be used to protect you far more than they are to beguile your enemies. You're not a battlefield controller, your'e a backstabber in the front line of combat. Because of this, INT isn't really that important, creatures aren't going to be rolling saves against your magic. Wisdom, however, is always important. You're obviously fine against damaging spells that target your Dex save, but spells that target Wisdom are also common and equally frustrating.

I'd stick with wisdom. As far as what weapons to use? That depends on if you realistically see yourself throwing your daggers. It gives you an option for a pretty small hit in damage, it's really personal preference. If not daggers, scimitars or short swords.

[Exocist]

I agree about action surge. However, if I choose Arcane Trickster, then I can only multiclass into 1 level of another class otherwise I lose the ability to cast 4th-level spells. Exocist suggested a melee build using sentinel and mirror image for off-turn sneak attacks (which is amazing, by the way). Would a ranged attacker using a longbow, Sharpshooter, and Haste be comparable in terms of DPR?

Keep in mind that level 14 is a long way away, which is why having Mirror Image/Sentinel for double sneak attacks at 7th is so good.


A ranged attacker using LB, SS, Haste would have one sneak attack + 2 bow dice damage + dex x2 + 20 then multiply all of that, taking the median for dice damage, by .35, .5, and .6 respectively to get a very close estimation of your DPR with no advantage, regular advantage, and elven accuracy trivantage.

A melee build with sentinel can still haste, yes? And you can also use an offhand weapon for giggles (in case you get unlucky and miss). So there you'd have 4d6 light weapon dice + Two sneak attacks + dex mod x4 (if you take TWF instead of Archery). No -5 here, so you'd multiply this by .55 for no advantage and like .785 for advantage.

If you start with sentinel with V Human and dip fighter as your 5th level you should outdamage the bow at pretty much all levels. The more sneak dice you get, the more you can abuse the double sneak attack. The offhand dex damage plus the reaction attack dex damage from TWF gets you very near the raw damage of sharpshooter every round as well.

The reason not to start Vuman is that you can't take Elven Accuracy, which boosts your damage greatly. Speaking of SS, let's check the numbers.

Here is the damage our melee trickster is doing against average AC (This assumes you get help from familiar every turn and you always get a double SA from Mirror Image or Haste).

https://i.imgur.com/UxsHJbK.png

If you bring that down to base rogue you get something like this instead.

https://i.imgur.com/WHBJLX2.png

Yeesh, he doesn't look too good. Add Sharpshooter (at level 4) and he looks like this:

https://i.imgur.com/B5z8ixd.png

He looks even worse. What about if he had advantage?

https://i.imgur.com/C8xKjIF.png

Still doesn't look great. Let's give him Elven Accuracy, a Fighter level and double sneak attacks at level 15 (when he can cast haste).

https://i.imgur.com/YiLs3H9.png

Alright, his damage is pretty good now. Let's try removing Sharpshooter.

https://i.imgur.com/WRjEp8U.png

Our damage actually goes up. The reason: the +10 damage from Sharpshooter doesn't outweigh the massive amount of average damage you lose from lowering your to-hit, given how much your attack standardly does (Even a level 11 unoptimised rogue will do at least 30 damage on a hit, Sharpshooter increases your damage by about a third while nearly halving your to-hit). Even with Elven Accuracy catching up that to-hit loss, it's still not enough to make Sharpshooter good on a rogue - the only reason you want it is to increase your range and negate cover, not for the -5/+10.

[Millface]

Melee AT rogue doesn't need Elven Accuracy, though it can have it...

I'm curious to see how you'd build that.

Stats starting at 17 dex... goal being 20.

At 4 you need to take sentinel. An extra attack every round that ALSO adds sneak damage is HUGE, and more valuable than the 15% to hit boost you get with trivantage over regular advantage and the +1 to attack and damage combined. EA would result in a net total of a ~28% damage boost if and only if you have advantage, while Sentinel, used properly, results in a 100% damage boost.

At 5 you want your fighter dip.

At 9 you take EA, Dex goes to 18 and you get your 5% damage boost from the +1 to hit and now a ~5% from the +1 to damage, and your 15% boost when you have advantage.

So its level 13 before you get 20 dex.


Now lets check V Human. You START with Sentinel and 16 dex, meaning a good chance of two sneak attacks per round from 1-4 that you didn't have with an elf. So...

1-4 you outdamage the elf build soundly

@4 +2 Dex. This is a ~13% damage boost, +1 raw damage is 8% of the median damage you'd do on a sneak attack at this level and you have a 5% better hit chance. So now you're dealing 13% more damage than the Elf build who just got sentinel.

5-8 you dip fighter 1 and 3 more rogue, all the while doing 13% more damage than the Elf build.

@9 you go to 20 dex, while the elf build is now getting EA. The +1 damage is down to 5% of your median damage on an attack now, but the +1 to hit is always a flat 5% increase in damage. So now with advantage the elf build is roughly 25% ahead of where it started, while the Human build is 20% ahead of where it started ALL the time, advantage or no, with 1 more AC and a better dex save.

@13 you can take whatever you want as a feat and you'd weigh that against another damage boost in the EA build. Which is now give or take 12% ahead of you in damage when and only when it has advantage, and is even with you, finally, without advantage.

So the question to ask is this: Do you want to deal more damage levels 1-9 + Any feat you want at 13, or do you want to sacrifice that feat at 13 to deal 12% more damage 13-20 after having done less for the bulk of your adventuring career than you otherwise could have done?

Not to be a stickler but V Human is mathematically, objectively more effective for more time overall.

[KorvinStarmast]

Level 3: Always have advantage due to Find Familiar. Until the familiar dies. (Check out how many HP a standard familiar has. one hit, it's dead)

[Exocist]

Melee AT rogue doesn't need Elven Accuracy, though it can have it...

I'm curious to see how you'd build that.

Stats starting at 17 dex... goal being 20.

At 4 you need to take sentinel. An extra attack every round that ALSO adds sneak damage is HUGE, and more valuable than the 15% to hit boost you get with trivantage over regular advantage and the +1 to attack and damage combined. EA would result in a net total of a ~28% damage boost if and only if you have advantage, while Sentinel, used properly, results in a 100% damage boost.

At 5 you want your fighter dip.

At 9 you take EA, Dex goes to 18 and you get your 5% damage boost from the +1 to hit and now a ~5% from the +1 to damage, and your 15% boost when you have advantage.

So its level 13 before you get 20 dex.


Now lets check V Human. You START with Sentinel and 16 dex, meaning a good chance of two sneak attacks per round from 1-4 that you didn't have with an elf. So...

1-4 you outdamage the elf build soundly

@4 +2 Dex. This is a ~13% damage boost, +1 raw damage is 8% of the median damage you'd do on a sneak attack at this level and you have a 5% better hit chance. So now you're dealing 13% more damage than the Elf build who just got sentinel.

5-8 you dip fighter 1 and 3 more rogue, all the while doing 13% more damage than the Elf build.

@9 you go to 20 dex, while the elf build is now getting EA. The +1 damage is down to 5% of your median damage on an attack now, but the +1 to hit is always a flat 5% increase in damage. So now with advantage the elf build is roughly 25% ahead of where it started, while the Human build is 20% ahead of where it started ALL the time, advantage or no, with 1 more AC and a better dex save.

@13 you can take whatever you want as a feat and you'd weigh that against another damage boost in the EA build. Which is now give or take 12% ahead of you in damage when and only when it has advantage, and is even with you, finally, without advantage.

So the question to ask is this: Do you want to deal more damage levels 1-9 + Any feat you want at 13, or do you want to sacrifice that feat at 13 to deal 12% more damage 13-20 after having done less for the bulk of your adventuring career than you otherwise could have done?

Not to be a stickler but V Human is mathematically, objectively more effective for more time overall.

Couple of things you're forgetting

1) Rogue has an ASI at 10th level, which means you don't need to wait until 13th for 20 DEX (only 11th)
2) Sentinel is useless on a rogue until ~4th level anyway (some may argue its actually detrimental). Reason being that classes which protect you (Ancestral Barb, Cavalier, etc.), don't get those features until 3rd level. You can't proc it yourself until at least 3rd level (Find Familiar I guess), but you're waiting until at least 7th to proc it yourself continuously. Also, in the event they DO attack you, you'll probably want uncanny dodge (5th level) so you don't go splat. Making 4th level a good time to get sentinel.

I did actually do the mathematics on this a while back. Elven Accuracy puts you ~10% ahead in damage once you get it and only about 1-2% damage behind before you have it.

Also I'm not sure why you're taking a Fighter dip. If I was to dip anything, it would be Warlock (Raven Queen) for a second familiar (they're that good for rogues) which also comes with a rider if it's killed. But that is contingent on UA Material being allowed.

As far as the build goes, it looks something like this
4th: Sentinel
8th: EA (+1 DEX)
10th: +2 DEX
Rest: Whatever

Starting stats (I play with Array so...)
STR: 8
DEX: 15 (+2 = 17
CON: 13 (+1 = 14, I'd take Shadar-Kai)
INT: 14 or 10 (Depends if you want to use any save-based stuff. I don't care for it personally, so I just dump INT).
WIS: 12 or 14 (Most mechanical benefit out of having 14 WIS)
CHA: 14 or 10 (CHA 13 is needed for Warlock dip. Also if you want to face)

When you get down to it, though, Vuman vs Elf for Rogue is about even. Yes, the Elf has that 10% extra damage from EA (as well as having better racials that we don't care about, the only relevant one is Darkvision) whereas the Vuman is up a feat (there's some good ones for Rogues - Lucky, Alert, Res Con to name a few). It's mostly down to preference, but there is an advantage to taking Elf (it's not a strictly inferior option as it usually is in the Vuman vs X matchup).

[Millface]

Until the familiar dies. (Check out how many HP a standard familiar has. one hit, it's dead)

This is why I strongly push the V Human build over the EA build.

on a 60% hit chance, regular advantage gives you a ~90% hit chance. Trivantage raises that up, sure, but not by much. Those gains deteriorate the higher your hit chance is.

Really I think that EA needs another boost to want to go into the build. Taking fighter to 3 instead, for example, and picking up the 19-20 crit chance from champion would change the equations drastically. And it's another story entirely when you talk about EA and Paladins. But for a straight melee rogue with one level in fighter? Starting with Sentinel instead of getting it at 4 is just hard to beat.



Couple of things you're forgetting

1) Rogue has an ASI at 10th level, which means you don't need to wait until 13th for 20 DEX (only 11th)
2) Sentinel is useless on a rogue until ~4th level anyway (some may argue its actually detrimental). Reason being that classes which protect you (Ancestral Barb, Cavalier, etc.), don't get those features until 3rd level. You can't proc it yourself until at least 3rd level (Find Familiar I guess), but you're waiting until at least 7th to proc it yourself continuously. Also, in the event they DO attack you, you'll probably want uncanny dodge (5th level) so you don't go splat. Making 4th level a good time to get sentinel.

I did actually do the mathematics on this a while back. Elven Accuracy puts you ~10% ahead in damage once you get it and only about 1-2% damage behind before you have it.

Also I'm not sure why you're taking a Fighter dip. If I was to dip anything, it would be Warlock (Raven Queen) for a second familiar (they're that good for rogues) which also comes with a rider if it's killed. But that is contingent on UA Material being allowed.



I'm not sure how find familiar helps you proc sentinel, but your other points are valid, my bad on the ASI thing. There are alot of factors that are hard to determine, such as the makeup of the rest of your party and your DMs mindset/how he chooses targets to attack. It's true that Sentinel doesn't truly become a sure thing until level 7 (or 8) when you'd get mirror image. The two, even with my calculations, were close enough, really, that you're not gimping yourself either way.

The fighter dip was something I had stuck in my head from the OP, but the +5 damage on the offhand really doesn't do much for the build at any level so it's really probably not necessary.

I don't play rogues very often so now that I'm seeing the ASI at 10 I'm probably going to go ahead and flip my stance of EA for the build. I didn't realize they got that extra ASI, and it changes alot. Really at that point it depends on how much time you're spending in your campaigns 1-8 and how high you normally get by the end. If you rarely pass level 10 EA is nearly pointless. If you spend months on end playing levels 8-20 then it is.

[Exocist]

Until the familiar dies. (Check out how many HP a standard familiar has. one hit, it's dead)

This is a simple fix - just tell your DM "Don't kill my familiar, I'll be really sad if you do"


I guess you can at least get a revenge shot off - Familiar is an ally, so you can smack them once with sentinel before they kill your familiar (and you have to recast the spell).

Otherwise, you can take a dip into Warlock (Raven Queen).

[Derpaligtr]

True. However, I would like to make my character as effective in combat as possible while still being fun to roleplay.



That's the thing though, 5e's floor is really high and sacrificing more for just a tiny bit more damage ain't doing your party that many favors.

[Mikal]

Until the familiar dies. (Check out how many HP a standard familiar has. one hit, it's dead)

That's why you go Owl familiar, so it moves in, does help, and moves out. And when it dies... you just recreate it.

[FieserMoep]

If you want to do your own thing, have fancy tricks up your sleeve, stick in close range or even melee and don't expect the campaign to reach T4 - AT.

If you want to fill a useful role for you group as their literal scout, be more mundane in what you can do, stay at range and expect T4 for super synergies - Scout.

Both are pretty much the Top Tier of Rogue Subclasses anyway and if you utilize their respective potential, can be great.

[Derpaligtr]

That's why you go Owl familiar, so it moves in, does help, and moves out. And when it dies... you just recreate it.

On one hand, I always like doing this.

On the other hand, free advantage.

The mastermind has to use a bonus action AND can't use it for themselves.

[Keravath]

At level 5 you have a +7 to hit, and at that level ACs range from 12-16 or so, with 16 being the AC you want to throw math at when calculating damage potential.

This means you hit on a 9, or 55% of the time. With -5/+10 you instead hit on a 14, or a 35% chance. With regular advantage, and this math is weird but I think this goes to 45ish%, with triple advantage probability math goes out of my league but it'll be thereabout your original 55% if not higher.

So, with a longbow and sneak attack, no sharpshooter you're looking at 1d8+3d6+4 *.55, taking medians, this is 9.35 DPR against AC 16.

With Sharpshooter and no advantage its 1d8+3d6+14*.35, or 9.45 DPR. With Advantage it goes up to 12.15, and with triple advantage it goes to 15 DPR.

The extra damage, over the course of a combat with sharpshooter is absolutely, mathematically worth it, even without advantage, so let's put in a pin in that debate. Add in that you can choose to do it more often when AC is lower and the numbers just go up and up. But still, the base DPR, with no advantage at all, is still slightly higher with the sharpshooter feat.

As far as scout or trickster? Trickster gives you some defensive options, but if you're playing ranged the differences are mostly personal preference, neither really adds much in the way of extra damage with a bow.

I do wonder what the logic is behind taking fighter 1 but not going to 2? Rogue capstones are at 17, and action surge is one of if not the single best ability in 5e. Why not Rogue 18/Fighter 2?


Ummm .. math issues?

1) At level 5 you only have +7 to hit if you take the +2 stat ASI or elven advantage at level 4. Only a variant human could have both an ASI and sharpshooter (but they can't get elven advantage). Elven advantage and sharpshooter can only come into play at level 8 for a rogue or level 6 for a fighter at the earliest.

2) 9 to hit is 60% chance of hitting ... not 55%. (You miss on 8 numbers 1-8)

Getting the base probability correct changes ALL of your numbers.

Let's look at level 5 - assuming one character takes sharpshooter and the other takes a +2 dex ASI.

AC16
- sharpshooter is +1 to hit (+6 base -5 for sharpshooter)
- w/o sharpshooter is +7 to hit

+7 hits on a 9 which is 60% hit chance
+1 hits on a 15 which is 30% hit chance

base damage = 1d8+3d6+4 = 4.5+10.5 +4 = 19 average vs SS: 28 since stat is one less

w/o sharpshooter = 19 * 0.6 = 11.4DPR
w sharpshooter DPR = 28 * 0.3 = 8.4DPR

If you attack with advantage then the odds of hitting are 1-(both attack rolls miss)
= 1-(0.4)^2 = 84% w/o sharpshooter
= 1-(0.7)^2 = 51% w sharpshooter

Damage in this case:
19 * 0.84 = 16.0
28 * 0.51 = 14.3

As a first ASI .. sharpshooter is a trap for a rogue and never generates better damage results than a +2 dex ASI.

What about elven accuracy vs an ASI at level 4?
- if you started with 17 dex then you will get 18 and the same base damage as a +2 dex ASI

Damage for elven accuracy
19 * [1-0.4^3] = 19 * .936 = 17.8

Not surprisingly ... you will get better DPR with elven accuracy than without it ... at level 5 it amounts to an average of just less than 2 extra damage when you can attack with advantage.

-----

Lets look at level 8 rogue - when you might actually be able to use both sharpshooter and elven accuracy.

Comparing a level 8 rogue with sharp shooter and elven accuracy vs a rogue with 20 dex due to taking two + 2 dex ASI instead .. AND the case where a rogue takes elven accuracy and a +2 dex ASI.

At level 8: base to hit is +3 prof +4 or +5 for stat = +7 for SS, +8 for EA and DEX ASI.

Base damage = 1d8 +4d6+5 = 4.5 + 14 + 5 = 23.5 vs 32.5 for SS (stat is one less)

AC 16:
- requires 8 to hit for EA or DEX = 65% hit, 35% miss
- requires 14 to hit for SS (+7-5=+2) = 65% miss, 35% hit

No advantage

DEX,EA: 23.5 * 0.65 = 15.3
SS: 32.5 * 0.35 = 11.4

With advantage:
DEX 23.5 * (1-.35^2) = 23.5 * 0.8775 = 20.6
EA 23.5 * (1-0.35^3) = 23.5 * 0.957 = 22.5
SS 32.5 * (1-0.65^2) = 32.5 * 0.5775 = 18.8

So ... again it is seen that sharpshooter is a TRAP for a rogue since it lower levels it always decreases their average damage due to the to hit penalty when you consider the rogue sacrifices the stat boost.

Elven accuracy, if it fits your build, will always provide a little boost in average DPR due to the extra to hit dice rolled when you have advantage.

Sharpshooter is a waste of a feat for a rogue.

-------------

However, does this change at 10th level when a rogue gets a third ASI.

To hit: +4 prof +5 stat = +9 .... SS: 9-5 = +4

AC16:
- 7 to hit = 70% hit, 30% miss
- 12 to hit = 45% hit, 55% miss

Damage = 1d8 + 5d6 + 5 = 4.5 + 17.5 + 5 = 27

EA + Dex: 27 * 0.7 = 18.9
SS: 37 * 0.45 = 16.7

with advantage

dex: 27 * (1-0.3^2) = 24.6
Dex+SS: 37 * (1-0.55^2) = 25.8

SS provides about 1DPR improvement vs AC16. (Keep in mind that is only ONE HP of damage difference)

with EA:

EA + dex: 27 * (1-0.3^3) = 26.3
EA+Dex+SS: 37 * (1-0.55^3) = 30.8

What about AC18 which might be more likely at level 10?

AC18:
- 9 to hit = 60% hit, 40% miss
- 14 to hit = 35% hit, 65% miss

EA or Dex: 27 * 0.6 = 16.2
SS: 37 * 0.35 = 13.0

with advantage:

dex: 27 * (1-0.4^2) = 22.7
SS: 37 * (1-0.65^2) = 21.4

SS falls off as AC increases and is a bad idea even with advantage against AC18.

with elven advantage

ea+dex: 27 * 0.936 = 25.3
ea+dex+ss: 37 * 0.725 = 26.8

------------------------

So at level 10, against AC18, with sharpshooter+elven advantage and maxed dex, sharpshooter could give an average 1.5DPR boost with the downside of an overall miss chance of 27.5%. With just regular advantage against AC18, it is better not to use sharpshooter at all.

Without advantage ... sharpshooter is NEVER a good choice for a rogue.

Basically, sharpshooter on a lower level rogue is a trap feat. Once a rogue has maxed their attack stat sharpshooter may be worth considering when they have advantage or elven advantage against low AC targets but it results in much more variability in the damage per round since the chance to miss is much larger.

On a build with multi-attack SS is more useful.

(Sharpshooter however has some good secondary effects negating range and cover limitations so it might be worthwhile for those reasons ... but without extra attack ... sharpshooter doesn't add much for most rogues).


A couple of other comments ...

- A rogue gets ONE sneak attack on their turn. Haste does not increase the number of sneak attacks ... it just gives the rogue a second chance to land their sneak attack.
- A familiar provides the help action for ONE attack. This means that help from an owl familiar flyby will only give the rogue advantage on the first attack. Also, depending on the initiative order, the owl help action only gives advantage for the NEXT attack against the target which may or may not be the rogue.
- Mirror image + sentinel is a cool way to generate a reaction sneak attack assuming that the roll is high enough and the attack is directed against one of the images rather than the rogue. However, it still requires an attack against the rogue or an adjacent ally to trigger sentinel and it will use the rogue's reaction so uncanny dodge won't be available. So ... it is situational, has opportunity costs, but is pretty neat if you can get it to trigger ... is it worth a feat? I'm not sure.

[Millface]

Ummm .. math issues?

1) At level 5 you only have +7 to hit if you take the +2 stat ASI or elven advantage at level 4. Only a variant human could have both an ASI and sharpshooter (but they can't get elven advantage). Elven advantage and sharpshooter can only come into play at level 8 for a rogue or level 6 for a fighter at the earliest.

2) 9 to hit is 60% chance of hitting ... not 55%. (You miss on 8 numbers 1-8)

Getting the base probability correct changes ALL of your numbers.

Let's look at level 5 - assuming one character takes sharpshooter and the other takes a +2 dex ASI.

AC16
- sharpshooter is +1 to hit (+6 base -5 for sharpshooter)
- w/o sharpshooter is +7 to hit

+7 hits on a 9 which is 60% hit chance
+1 hits on a 15 which is 30% hit chance

base damage = 1d8+3d6+4 = 4.5+10.5 +4 = 19 average vs SS: 28 since stat is one less

w/o sharpshooter = 19 * 0.6 = 11.4DPR
w sharpshooter DPR = 28 * 0.3 = 8.4DPR

If you attack with advantage then the odds of hitting are 1-(both attack rolls miss)
= 1-(0.4)^2 = 84% w/o sharpshooter
= 1-(0.7)^2 = 51% w sharpshooter

Damage in this case:
19 * 0.84 = 16.0
28 * 0.51 = 14.3

As a first ASI .. sharpshooter is a trap for a rogue and never generates better damage results than a +2 dex ASI.

What about elven accuracy vs an ASI at level 4?
- if you started with 17 dex then you will get 18 and the same base damage as a +2 dex ASI

Damage for elven accuracy
19 * [1-0.4^3] = 19 * .936 = 17.8

Not surprisingly ... you will get better DPR with elven accuracy than without it ... at level 5 it amounts to an average of just less than 2 extra damage when you can attack with advantage.

-----

Lets look at level 8 rogue - when you might actually be able to use both sharpshooter and elven accuracy.

Comparing a level 8 rogue with sharp shooter and elven accuracy vs a rogue with 20 dex due to taking two + 2 dex ASI instead .. AND the case where a rogue takes elven accuracy and a +2 dex ASI.

At level 8: base to hit is +3 prof +4 or +5 for stat = +7 for SS, +8 for EA and DEX ASI.

Base damage = 1d8 +4d6+5 = 4.5 + 14 + 5 = 23.5 vs 32.5 for SS (stat is one less)

AC 16:
- requires 8 to hit for EA or DEX = 65% hit, 35% miss
- requires 14 to hit for SS (+7-5=+2) = 65% miss, 35% hit

No advantage

DEX,EA: 23.5 * 0.65 = 15.3
SS: 32.5 * 0.35 = 11.4

With advantage:
DEX 23.5 * (1-.35^2) = 23.5 * 0.8775 = 20.6
EA 23.5 * (1-0.35^3) = 23.5 * 0.957 = 22.5
SS 32.5 * (1-0.65^2) = 32.5 * 0.5775 = 18.8

So ... again it is seen that sharpshooter is a TRAP for a rogue since it lower levels it always decreases their average damage due to the to hit penalty when you consider the rogue sacrifices the stat boost.

Elven accuracy, if it fits your build, will always provide a little boost in average DPR due to the extra to hit dice rolled when you have advantage.

Sharpshooter is a waste of a feat for a rogue.

-------------

However, does this change at 10th level when a rogue gets a third ASI.

To hit: +4 prof +5 stat = +9 .... SS: 9-5 = +4

AC16:
- 7 to hit = 70% hit, 30% miss
- 12 to hit = 45% hit, 55% miss

Damage = 1d8 + 5d6 + 5 = 4.5 + 17.5 + 5 = 27

EA + Dex: 27 * 0.7 = 18.9
SS: 37 * 0.45 = 16.7

with advantage

dex: 27 * (1-0.3^2) = 24.6
Dex+SS: 37 * (1-0.55^2) = 25.8

SS provides about 1DPR improvement vs AC16. (Keep in mind that is only ONE HP of damage difference)

with EA:

EA + dex: 27 * (1-0.3^3) = 26.3
EA+Dex+SS: 37 * (1-0.55^3) = 30.8

What about AC18 which might be more likely at level 10?

AC18:
- 9 to hit = 60% hit, 40% miss
- 14 to hit = 35% hit, 65% miss

EA or Dex: 27 * 0.6 = 16.2
SS: 37 * 0.35 = 13.0

with advantage:

dex: 27 * (1-0.4^2) = 22.7
SS: 37 * (1-0.65^2) = 21.4

SS falls off as AC increases and is a bad idea even with advantage against AC18.

with elven advantage

ea+dex: 27 * 0.936 = 25.3
ea+dex+ss: 37 * 0.725 = 26.8

------------------------

So at level 10, against AC18, with sharpshooter+elven advantage and maxed dex, sharpshooter could give an average 1.5DPR boost with the downside of an overall miss chance of 27.5%. With just regular advantage against AC18, it is better not to use sharpshooter at all.

Without advantage ... sharpshooter is NEVER a good choice for a rogue.

Basically, sharpshooter on a lower level rogue is a trap feat. Once a rogue has maxed their attack stat sharpshooter may be worth considering when they have advantage or elven advantage against low AC targets but it results in much more variability in the damage per round since the chance to miss is much larger.

On a build with multi-attack SS is more useful.

(Sharpshooter however has some good secondary effects negating range and cover limitations so it might be worthwhile for those reasons ... but without extra attack ... sharpshooter doesn't add much for most rogues).


A couple of other comments ...

- A rogue gets ONE sneak attack on their turn. Haste does not increase the number of sneak attacks ... it just gives the rogue a second chance to land their sneak attack.
- A familiar provides the help action for ONE attack. This means that help from an owl familiar flyby will only give the rogue advantage on the first attack. Also, depending on the initiative order, the owl help action only gives advantage for the NEXT attack against the target which may or may not be the rogue.
- Mirror image + sentinel is a cool way to generate a reaction sneak attack assuming that the roll is high enough and the attack is directed against one of the images rather than the rogue. However, it still requires an attack against the rogue or an adjacent ally to trigger sentinel and it will use the rogue's reaction so uncanny dodge won't be available. So ... it is situational, has opportunity costs, but is pretty neat if you can get it to trigger ... is it worth a feat? I'm not sure.

Yeah, math issues for sure.

I was taking the median, not the mean, for dice damage throughout which shortchanged the build w/o sharpshooter, botched the hit chance by miscounting, and didn't understand yet how to handle probability when you have 3x an x% chance.

Sorry for the derp. I did some learning today. Yesterday was my first attempt at getting into the deeper gearwork of optimization in 5e.

My opinion on feats like SS and even GWM have suffered as a result. On many levels, accuracy is king and crit chance doesn't amount to nearly as much damage as I'd thought it would, even with sneak attack or smite.

[NaughtyTiger]

CR 0-3 is average 13 ac
CR 8 is average 16

By time you are taking on cr8 you will have +8 (+1 bow is uncommon)


And haste does work fine on a rogue.
H
Sneak attack on the Haste attack
Action to ready an attack for whatever Sneak Attack on rxn

[Vogie]

Until the familiar dies. (Check out how many HP a standard familiar has. one hit, it's dead)

It will only be an issue until level 13, when you can then use an invisible mage hand as your "familiar".

Personally, I'd lean towards RQ Warlock - you get a short-rest Spell slot AND the raven familiar that grants advantage on it's killer, and automatically comes back on a short rest.

[Aaron Underhand]

Our party contains a wood elf Hunter ranger 5, rogue 3, point buy who picked sharpshooter at 4th level and has horde breaker. Since that pick she has out damaged both the pure rogue and the gwf barbarian. With horde breaker she often gets 3 attacks doing d8+d6+14 (+1 damage weapon). The best action my bard can take is usually to help her get advantage, she also often gets bless from our cleric. If you want wood elf for ranged DPR i recommend 5 levels of ranger!!

The subsequent rogue levels are really just icing, an extra 2d6 once per round...

[FieserMoep]

Thing is the Scout is a late bloomer. By MC that much you pretty much lose the LVL 17 ability which is the most powerful tool in the kit of a Scout, right after its LvL13 one.

[Exocist]

A couple of other comments ...

- A rogue gets ONE sneak attack on their turn. Haste does not increase the number of sneak attacks ... it just gives the rogue a second chance to land their sneak attack.
- A familiar provides the help action for ONE attack. This means that help from an owl familiar flyby will only give the rogue advantage on the first attack. Also, depending on the initiative order, the owl help action only gives advantage for the NEXT attack against the target which may or may not be the rogue.
- Mirror image + sentinel is a cool way to generate a reaction sneak attack assuming that the roll is high enough and the attack is directed against one of the images rather than the rogue. However, it still requires an attack against the rogue or an adjacent ally to trigger sentinel and it will use the rogue's reaction so uncanny dodge won't be available. So ... it is situational, has opportunity costs, but is pretty neat if you can get it to trigger ... is it worth a feat? I'm not sure.

Haste lets you attack (haste bonus action)+ready action attack for two sneak attacks per round (one per turn still).

You only really need advantage on one attack anyway. I calculated the damage assuming you only had advantage on one attack. You can still get SA damage from an ally within 5ft (such as your mirror image clones or a party member).

Sentinel is a more enticing option if you have support for it - an ancestral barb or cavalier fighter for instance. You don’t get image until 7th level, so without party support I wouldn’t pick it until my 8th ASI.

[Expected]

I understand the benefit of dual-wielding finesse weapons, but would it be more beneficial to dip Fighter for shield proficiency and wield a dagger/shortsword/rapier and shield and use Booming Blade for attacks?

[Exocist]

I understand the benefit of dual-wielding finesse weapons, but would it be more beneficial to dip Fighter for shield proficiency and wield a dagger/shortsword/rapier and shield and use Booming Blade for attacks?

At level 11+? Almost certainly. If you already have elven accuracy and advantage? Almost certainly.

Before that? You're losing 1d8-3d8 damage in return for some measure of security in landing your sneak attack. For some people, the benefits outweigh the cost.

[zem77]

Well a Wood Elf Scout 17, Champion 3 with the Elven accuracy, ASI Dex+2, and archery fighting style could probably be really effective at dealing damage because with 3 chances (when you have advantage) to roll a 19 or 20 to crit should really increase your damage. (Would love some help for those of you doing the math.) Now the downside to this build is that when you hit scout 17, the xbow expert feat becomes useless because the level 17 scout ability gives you a second attack that you can apply sneak damage to if it's on a separate target than the 1st hit.

I tend to think starting as Fighter for the Con save is the way to start. With point buy, this build gets Dex to 20. Reading this thread, I'm torn about sharpshooter and now tend to not want to take it and I hate the thought that Xbow Expert becomes redundant but understand its value before getting the Scout lvl 17 ability. I think maybe I'd take Lucky and Ritual Caster:Wizard for the Find familiar and some other utility spells. While I am forgoing on the good cantrips magic initiate gets, those are better for melee focused builds.

There is still room for the 5th feat which I tend to think should be Xbow Expert, but could easily be Magic Initiate, Alert, or Wood Elf Magic. Thoughts?

[Expected]

I tend to think starting as Fighter for the Con save is the way to start. With point buy, this build gets Dex to 20. Reading this thread, I'm torn about sharpshooter and now tend to not want to take it

Starting as Fighter does have advantages, however, you will lose out on 1-2 skill proficiencies depending on whether or not you multiclass into Rogue. For a ranged attacker, SS is absolutely necessary to have competitive DPR--not necessarily for the -5, +10, but for the no distance penalty and ignoring all but full cover, which happens a lot as you sometimes need to target a foe next to a party member who may or may not be in the way.


There is still room for the 5th feat which I tend to think should be Xbow Expert, but could easily be Magic Initiate, Alert, or Wood Elf Magic. Thoughts?

Magic Initiate is useful, especially for Find Familiar (Owl); Alert is better for Assassins; Wood Elf Magic is not optimal compared to any build necessary feat such as SS or Res (Con) to round out odd ability scores. I would use a longbow and hide using bonus actions. Then, when you get 17 Scout, start using it for the second Sneak Attack instead of hiding. Ask a caster to cast Greater Invisibility on you or you can use you familiar + attack a threatened enemy.