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LibbyLishly
2018-08-21, 01:24 PM
Tl;dr: not sure which my core class should be or how many levels to take of each in my multiclass build.

Long version:
I'm creating a character for a three-person campaign starting at Level 1. Since the other two will be Dragonborn (one Druid, one Rogue), I opted to start as a Halfling Draconic Sorcerer with an Entertainer background (this is definitely my race and starting class and I am not looking for advice on this part). My rolls + racial stats are starting me with an 18 in Charisma and a 16 in Dex.

Since researching the Sorcerer, I've seen a ton of controversy over whether they're underpowered (especially compared to literally any other full caster) and whether multiclassing can fix that. I'm also not sure how big of a deal minimal known spells will be. Because of all this, I'm not sure if I want Sorcerer to ultimately be my core class. I definitely plan to start there due to the party theme of draconic bloodlines + proficiency in Con saves.

Right now, I'm leaning toward a build that will give me a little bit of extra flexibility in the early levels, especially because I don't know how far this campaign will go (20th level seems unlikely since we'll all be playing via video call, but who knows).

My plan for my first three levels is to take one level each in three classes:

Sorcerer 1: 4 cantrips, 2 1st level spells, starting AC of 16 due to draconic bloodline, 2 spell slots
Bard 1: 2 cantrips, 4 1st level spells, 3 spell slots due to multiclassing rules, Bardic Inspriration to help my party not hate me, extra skill is nice
Warlock 1: 2 cantrips, 2 1st level spells, Patron feature (either Archfey or Hexblade), 1 spell slot that refreshes on a short rest

At level three, this will mean I have 8 cantrips, 8 1st level spells known, and 4 spell slots, 1 of which I can take a short rest to get back, along with various class features.

After that, I don't know whether I should take a couple more Warlock levels for the invocations and pact boon, continue as straight Warlock, continue as straight Bard (no idea which College), continue as straight Sorcerer, or grab a couple more levels in Sorcerer for the metamagics before progressing in either of the other two.

I've never played a full caster before so I'm not sure how big of a deal spell progression is compared to versatility.

It's worth noting that while I want to be able to deal solid damage, especially since there are so few of us, I want some control and buff capabilities as well and don't want to solely be a blaster (and I don't want to be locked into spamming Eldritch Blast all through every combat). As such, not only am I looking for advice on the build, but also advice on what spells to take.

Thanks in advance!

Edited because I screwed up my math.

BaconAwesome
2018-08-21, 01:38 PM
I'm pretty sure Warlock 1 just gets 1 slot.

LibbyLishly
2018-08-21, 01:50 PM
I'm pretty sure Warlock 1 just gets 1 slot.

*Smacks forehead* Yeah, you're right. Edited to fix that.

Snowbluff
2018-08-21, 04:33 PM
Spell progression is important.

I will say that as playing a straight control based (Shadow) sorcerer, I am often upset with how little damage I do.
Having like 3 warlock for 2 2nd level slots is a nice bump (especially if you eat them for spell points), and also I would never turn down agonizing blast as filler or burst damage.

I like having 5 levels of bard to recover inspiration on a short rest. Basically Lord is often the best if you're in a support role.

For Sorcerer I find that being a higher level gives you a lot more versatility. Higher level spells are really good, and having both Quicken and Heighten on your build is a big improvement for most anything. The real trick is picking good spells. Classics are Web, Earthen Grasp, Fear, Sickening Radiance, Telekinesis (2 levels of bard buffs this), and Synaptic Static.

Keravath
2018-08-22, 04:21 PM
You mention not wanting to spam eldritch blast ... however, this is one of the key features that shores up some of the weaknesses with bard and sorcerer.

I would probably choose either sorcerer or bard since taking both will slow your spell progression.

A two level dip in hexblade warlock does a lot mechanically for both classes.
- 2 short rest level 1 spell slots
- medium armor + shield
- shield spell, hex
- hexblades curse
- martial weapon proficiencies
- invocations (devil's sight - very useful for halflings since they lack dark vision, agonizing blast to go with eldritch blast is popular for the other .. but there is a lot of choice).

The biggest issue for your party is the lack of in combat healing. If the druid decides to go with moon druid then he makes a great tank but won't be able to heal. Without a way to get your party members back into the fight (a la healing word or even cure wounds) ... every encounter becomes more challenging and risky (especially with only 3 players).

If this is the case then bard might be a better choice since they can do skills, crowd control, debuff and back up healing very well. When you add eldritch+agonizing blast from a 2 level warlock dip they can also fall back on decent damage while concentrating on some other spell.

If you did not have the draconic theme going you also might consider the divine soul sorcerer since it has a number of spell options that would allow for the back up healer and buff/debuff/crowd control role.

Finally, one of the main reasons for building a sorcerer/warlock is to take advantage of eldritch blast + quickened eldritch blast to be able to deliver significant single target damage in a short period of time. Combined with hex this can be quite a bit of damage. Alternatively, the sorcerer can fireball then hit whoever is left with an eldritch blast (though they could also use firebolt though it isn't quite as much damage).

Citan
2018-08-22, 07:05 PM
Tl;dr: not sure which my core class should be or how many levels to take of each in my multiclass build.

Long version:


My plan for my first three levels is to take one level each in three classes:

Sorcerer 1: 4 cantrips, 2 1st level spells, starting AC of 16 due to draconic bloodline, 2 spell slots
Bard 1: 2 cantrips, 4 1st level spells, 3 spell slots due to multiclassing rules, Bardic Inspriration to help my party not hate me, extra skill is nice
Warlock 1: 2 cantrips, 2 1st level spells, Patron feature (either Archfey or Hexblade), 1 spell slot that refreshes on a short rest
I've never played a full caster before so I'm not sure how big of a deal spell progression is compared to versatility.

It's worth noting that while I want to be able to deal solid damage, especially since there are so few of us, I want some control and buff capabilities as well and don't want to solely be a blaster (and I don't want to be locked into spamming Eldritch Blast all through every combat). As such, not only am I looking for advice on the build, but also advice on what spells to take.

Thanks in advance!

Edited because I screwed up my math.
Hey ;)
So...
I understand your fears, and if you are not used to "focused caster" or don't like it, you definitely have the right mindset.
With that said, I think starting outright with three differents level is pushing a bit. It *can* certainly work, but you may dislike later being one whole rank "behind" just to get indispensables like Counterspell or Fireball.

Now, I understand why you'd like all three because all are solid.
But you are imo putting a bit too much on your own plate here.
You have a Druid. In other words, you have the best caster ever to get for small parties. Because...
1. It gets all basics in all categories (healing, utility, control, AOE).
2. It gets many great control spells relying on movement, and with your party...
- Lacking any tank.
- Being completely functional at range (Rogue can use longbow, you'll use Ranged cantrips, Druid probably too until/unless he goes Moon Druid)...
You will probably try and keep enemies at bay, so one "pure" healer should be fine (especially with Healing Spirit available).

For that reason, I'd rather suggest you make the following progression.
1. Sorcerer (you really want Constitution proficiency, and starting AC is not that bad).
2. Hexblade Warlock (get your main ranged cantrip and another cantrip, and boost your AC by 2-3 immediately to a very decent 18-19, by wielding shield and possibly donning medium armor)
3-4-5-6: go straight up to Sorcerer 4, for metamagics, 2nd level spells and ASI (big suggestion: Inspiring Leader).
Then take a step back, see what's worked, what's missing, and decide where to go on from there (or maybe do that after char level 4 to see whether another Healing Words source, Jack of All Trades and Bardic Inspiration would be more helpful to your party than THP every short rest and 3rd level spells).

On that note, unless you are set on Draconic Origin for fluff/concept reasons, I'd strongly advise instead going for Divine Soul.
Mechanically wise, although it increase the difficulty of spell choices, it is imo much better for the following reasons.
- You don't "waste" the draconic armor with Hexblade armor proficiencies.
- You can immediately get Bless, which is as name implies a blessing for your party.
- Depending on how you want to contribute to party in and out of combat, you can get several Cleric exclusive spells synergizing with whatever metamagic you choose.

Besides these generalities, there are many different ways to go here so I'd rather suggest you either see it as you go or search forum for Bard/Sorcerer | Sorcerer/Warlock builds to see how other people make it. :)


You mention not wanting to spam eldritch blast ... however, this is one of the key features that shores up some of the weaknesses with bard and sorcerer.

I would probably choose either sorcerer or bard since taking both will slow your spell progression.

A two level dip in hexblade warlock does a lot mechanically for both classes.
- 2 short rest level 1 spell slots
- medium armor + shield
- shield spell, hex
- hexblades curse
- martial weapon proficiencies
- invocations (devil's sight - very useful for halflings since they lack dark vision, agonizing blast to go with eldritch blast is popular for the other .. but there is a lot of choice).

The biggest issue for your party is the lack of in combat healing. If the druid decides to go with moon druid then he makes a great tank but won't be able to heal. Without a way to get your party members back into the fight (a la healing word or even cure wounds) ... every encounter becomes more challenging and risky (especially with only 3 players).

If this is the case then bard might be a better choice since they can do skills, crowd control, debuff and back up healing very well. When you add eldritch+agonizing blast from a 2 level warlock dip they can also fall back on decent damage while concentrating on some other spell.

If you did not have the draconic theme going you also might consider the divine soul sorcerer since it has a number of spell options that would allow for the back up healer and buff/debuff/crowd control role.

Finally, one of the main reasons for building a sorcerer/warlock is to take advantage of eldritch blast + quickened eldritch blast to be able to deliver significant single target damage in a short period of time. Combined with hex this can be quite a bit of damage. Alternatively, the sorcerer can fireball then hit whoever is left with an eldritch blast (though they could also use firebolt though it isn't quite as much damage).
Apart from the sentence about Draconic vs Divine Soul, I'll have to disagree with more or less the whole post.

1. "Spamming Eldricht Blast": at low levels, the difference with other cantrips is plain ridiculous. Certainly something to be happy about as a pure Warlock that has no appetite for things out of combat and dislike tactics.
Completely not worth enough to justify the dip in itself for another caster, especially one that can access Ray of Frost (good rider) or Firebolt (good range). It's only after level 5 that you really start seeing the quality of life difference in EB compared to concurrent ranged cantrips (several attack rolls = better chance to deal some damage and apply a rider), and only if you also have at least one related invocation.
So when talking about a lvl 1 starting character, there is really no need to put any pressure.

-----

2. "Two-level dip Warlock instead of 1 Bard / 1 Warlock"
The only thing you need the 2nd level for are Invocations and 2nd 1st level slot.

Invocations first.
Agonizing Blast just adds a bit of damage. It's good, not worth a full level until you get several rays.

Even Repelling Blast / Grasp of Hadar would probably suffer the same judgement, although it's much more beneficial to a party than just "+3 damage", since you can push away an enemy from a friend ("Disengage") or in contrary push an enemy into reach of Rogue so he risks a nasty OA afterwards unless it spends action on Disengage instead of going offensive.
For this, you are still pushing the whole spellcasting progression behind.
It *may* be worth, or not, matter of taste I guess.

Devil's Sight is usually too situational to be worth when not used in combination with Darkness. And per suggested progression, OP won't get Darkness before quite a few more levels.

To note, you make certainly a good point on Halflings not having Darkvision, the Invocation can circumvent that permanently.
However, both Druid and Sorcerer can learn the Darkvision spell (Druid bonus: he can swap it any day)...
- If the Druid goes Moon, he may survive well having one 2nd level slot less since he'll spent more time in Wild Beast.
- If the Druid goes Land, he gets a bit of slot recovery so it should be acceptable for him to spend it on that.
- If OP picks Extend metamagic, he may cast it before resting for the next adventuring day so the only expense.
And as campaign progresses, the relative cost per day of such way to get darkvision will diminish since both casters will get more spell fuel.
So I'd say getting this Invocation early may be worth mainly (only?) if campaign will, at soon as starting levels, primarily be spent in "dim light at best" environments for whatever reason.
Otherwise, it's better to grit your teeth and have Druid prepare the spell for the days when you expect to need it (dangerous area & low light & need to be stealthy).
After all, once you have become a character with at least 3rd or 4th level spells, that incidentally may learn Darkness on its way because it's also on Sorcerer list, you can still pick that 2nd level of Warlock if you really want to exploit that Invocation.

1st level slot then
the level in Bard makes your progression as a long-rest caster advance, so while right now it's probably less than Warlock (you usually get at least one short rest per day) later he'll be glad to get one more 2nd, 3rd, 4th level slot "earlier".
Ex char level 7:
Sorcerer 5 / Warlock 2 : can unleash 2 Fireball/Counterspell/Fear/Hypnotic Pattern/Slow/whatever per day. Can use one more Shield/Hex per short rest though. Is it worth? Honestly not in my book, unless you want to exploit spell conversion shenanigans or plan on acting as a tank for whatever reason. ^^
Sorcerer 5 / Warlock 1 / Bard 1: can unleash *a 3rd* such encounter-defining spell in a day.

-----
"Lack of in combat healing / tank" Completely depends on other player's choices.
And OP choices.
For example, Druid sustaining a Healing Spirit for someone while covering himself behind a Mold Earth to limit direct threat means you have a great source of healing per turn for someone to resist hits.
Especially if paired with OP going Divine Sorcerer to get Warding Bond to use on Rogue, or (Moon) Druid itself so the latter could tank by standing inside directly.

If the Rogue goes Thief, then grabbing the Healer feat would mean a pretty decent and cheap healing in combat. If he goes Arcane Tricskter, that means that at least for one fight, he can decently tank.
OP could also grab Inspiring Leader feat at 4 level. Although it seems overkill at first for a 3-man party, it does provide good mileage, scales with level, and since Druid can conjure allies, some of which understanding Common, they can profit too.

-----
"One of the main reasons of going Sorcerer + Warlock is using Quicken and possibly Hex for nova damage in one turn".
Bah.
Or even, blaaaaah.
Seriously. You are talking of a tactic that start being worth considering only after level 6 at the very least, and mainly for someone just interested in blowing all resources for nova damage.
For most people, it's something worth spending bonus action and sorcery points for only at level 9-10 onwards, when you are close to the 3rd ray, have at least Agonizing and/or Repelling, maxed Charisma, and enough sorcery points that you can blow a few ones "just to deal more damage" and still keep a decent amount for actually shining as a Sorcerer.
At low level (3-7) ? It's mostly a waste of resources, unless you are certain you can finish off a dangerous creature with that.
Because those are two points you won't be spending on things like...
- Twinning a buff or heal for your friends, or a Chromatic Orb against elemental-weak enemies, or trying to disable two melee enemies by making them levitate helplessly, or a Suggestion on a couple or two-man assassin team or whatnot.
- Subtle casting spells to avoid counterspell (in fight) or tilt challenge in your favor without repercussions (in social) or try and ambushe without blowing your hiding place.
- Empowering a Shatter or Fireball to ensure that expense of slot will at least provide a good ROI.
- Carefully casting a Fear to help your party without bothering them.
- Heigthening a Hold Person / Polymorph / Banishment to greatly increase the chance of completely turning the fight.
- Worst of worst case, converting those two points on an emergency Shield because s*** happened and you are in great danger of being downed until next round.
Etc etc...

Keravath
2018-08-22, 10:12 PM
Hey ;)
So...
I understand your fears, and if you are not used to "focused caster" or don't like it, you definitely have the right mindset.
With that said, I think starting outright with three differents level is pushing a bit. It *can* certainly work, but you may dislike later being one whole rank "behind" just to get indispensables like Counterspell or Fireball.

Now, I understand why you'd like all three because all are solid.
But you are imo putting a bit too much on your own plate here.
You have a Druid. In other words, you have the best caster ever to get for small parties. Because...
1. It gets all basics in all categories (healing, utility, control, AOE).
2. It gets many great control spells relying on movement, and with your party...
- Lacking any tank.
- Being completely functional at range (Rogue can use longbow, you'll use Ranged cantrips, Druid probably too until/unless he goes Moon Druid)...
You will probably try and keep enemies at bay, so one "pure" healer should be fine (especially with Healing Spirit available).

For that reason, I'd rather suggest you make the following progression.
1. Sorcerer (you really want Constitution proficiency, and starting AC is not that bad).
2. Hexblade Warlock (get your main ranged cantrip and another cantrip, and boost your AC by 2-3 immediately to a very decent 18-19, by wielding shield and possibly donning medium armor)
3-4-5-6: go straight up to Sorcerer 4, for metamagics, 2nd level spells and ASI (big suggestion: Inspiring Leader).
Then take a step back, see what's worked, what's missing, and decide where to go on from there (or maybe do that after char level 4 to see whether another Healing Words source, Jack of All Trades and Bardic Inspiration would be more helpful to your party than THP every short rest and 3rd level spells).

On that note, unless you are set on Draconic Origin for fluff/concept reasons, I'd strongly advise instead going for Divine Soul.
Mechanically wise, although it increase the difficulty of spell choices, it is imo much better for the following reasons.
- You don't "waste" the draconic armor with Hexblade armor proficiencies.
- You can immediately get Bless, which is as name implies a blessing for your party.
- Depending on how you want to contribute to party in and out of combat, you can get several Cleric exclusive spells synergizing with whatever metamagic you choose.

Besides these generalities, there are many different ways to go here so I'd rather suggest you either see it as you go or search forum for Bard/Sorcerer | Sorcerer/Warlock builds to see how other people make it. :)


Apart from the sentence about Draconic vs Divine Soul, I'll have to disagree with more or less the whole post.

1. "Spamming Eldricht Blast": at low levels, the difference with other cantrips is plain ridiculous. Certainly something to be happy about as a pure Warlock that has no appetite for things out of combat and dislike tactics.
Completely not worth enough to justify the dip in itself for another caster, especially one that can access Ray of Frost (good rider) or Firebolt (good range). It's only after level 5 that you really start seeing the quality of life difference in EB compared to concurrent ranged cantrips (several attack rolls = better chance to deal some damage and apply a rider), and only if you also have at least one related invocation.
So when talking about a lvl 1 starting character, there is really no need to put any pressure.

-----

2. "Two-level dip Warlock instead of 1 Bard / 1 Warlock"
The only thing you need the 2nd level for are Invocations and 2nd 1st level slot.

Invocations first.
Agonizing Blast just adds a bit of damage. It's good, not worth a full level until you get several rays.

Even Repelling Blast / Grasp of Hadar would probably suffer the same judgement, although it's much more beneficial to a party than just "+3 damage", since you can push away an enemy from a friend ("Disengage") or in contrary push an enemy into reach of Rogue so he risks a nasty OA afterwards unless it spends action on Disengage instead of going offensive.
For this, you are still pushing the whole spellcasting progression behind.
It *may* be worth, or not, matter of taste I guess.

Devil's Sight is usually too situational to be worth when not used in combination with Darkness. And per suggested progression, OP won't get Darkness before quite a few more levels.

To note, you make certainly a good point on Halflings not having Darkvision, the Invocation can circumvent that permanently.
However, both Druid and Sorcerer can learn the Darkvision spell (Druid bonus: he can swap it any day)...
- If the Druid goes Moon, he may survive well having one 2nd level slot less since he'll spent more time in Wild Beast.
- If the Druid goes Land, he gets a bit of slot recovery so it should be acceptable for him to spend it on that.
- If OP picks Extend metamagic, he may cast it before resting for the next adventuring day so the only expense.
And as campaign progresses, the relative cost per day of such way to get darkvision will diminish since both casters will get more spell fuel.
So I'd say getting this Invocation early may be worth mainly (only?) if campaign will, at soon as starting levels, primarily be spent in "dim light at best" environments for whatever reason.
Otherwise, it's better to grit your teeth and have Druid prepare the spell for the days when you expect to need it (dangerous area & low light & need to be stealthy).
After all, once you have become a character with at least 3rd or 4th level spells, that incidentally may learn Darkness on its way because it's also on Sorcerer list, you can still pick that 2nd level of Warlock if you really want to exploit that Invocation.

1st level slot then
the level in Bard makes your progression as a long-rest caster advance, so while right now it's probably less than Warlock (you usually get at least one short rest per day) later he'll be glad to get one more 2nd, 3rd, 4th level slot "earlier".
Ex char level 7:
Sorcerer 5 / Warlock 2 : can unleash 2 Fireball/Counterspell/Fear/Hypnotic Pattern/Slow/whatever per day. Can use one more Shield/Hex per short rest though. Is it worth? Honestly not in my book, unless you want to exploit spell conversion shenanigans or plan on acting as a tank for whatever reason. ^^
Sorcerer 5 / Warlock 1 / Bard 1: can unleash *a 3rd* such encounter-defining spell in a day.

-----
"Lack of in combat healing / tank" Completely depends on other player's choices.
And OP choices.
For example, Druid sustaining a Healing Spirit for someone while covering himself behind a Mold Earth to limit direct threat means you have a great source of healing per turn for someone to resist hits.
Especially if paired with OP going Divine Sorcerer to get Warding Bond to use on Rogue, or (Moon) Druid itself so the latter could tank by standing inside directly.

If the Rogue goes Thief, then grabbing the Healer feat would mean a pretty decent and cheap healing in combat. If he goes Arcane Tricskter, that means that at least for one fight, he can decently tank.
OP could also grab Inspiring Leader feat at 4 level. Although it seems overkill at first for a 3-man party, it does provide good mileage, scales with level, and since Druid can conjure allies, some of which understanding Common, they can profit too.

-----
"One of the main reasons of going Sorcerer + Warlock is using Quicken and possibly Hex for nova damage in one turn".
Bah.
Or even, blaaaaah.
Seriously. You are talking of a tactic that start being worth considering only after level 6 at the very least, and mainly for someone just interested in blowing all resources for nova damage.
For most people, it's something worth spending bonus action and sorcery points for only at level 9-10 onwards, when you are close to the 3rd ray, have at least Agonizing and/or Repelling, maxed Charisma, and enough sorcery points that you can blow a few ones "just to deal more damage" and still keep a decent amount for actually shining as a Sorcerer.
At low level (3-7) ? It's mostly a waste of resources, unless you are certain you can finish off a dangerous creature with that.
Because those are two points you won't be spending on things like...
- Twinning a buff or heal for your friends, or a Chromatic Orb against elemental-weak enemies, or trying to disable two melee enemies by making them levitate helplessly, or a Suggestion on a couple or two-man assassin team or whatnot.
- Subtle casting spells to avoid counterspell (in fight) or tilt challenge in your favor without repercussions (in social) or try and ambushe without blowing your hiding place.
- Empowering a Shatter or Fireball to ensure that expense of slot will at least provide a good ROI.
- Carefully casting a Fear to help your party without bothering them.
- Heigthening a Hold Person / Polymorph / Banishment to greatly increase the chance of completely turning the fight.
- Worst of worst case, converting those two points on an emergency Shield because s*** happened and you are in great danger of being downed until next round.
Etc etc...

It's interesting that we pretty much came up with similar suggestions while you disagreed with pretty much everything I said :)

A few comments:

- the sorcerer only has 2 meta magic options (until level 10) so all your examples of cool things to do with meta-magic aren't simultaneously possible. The most frequent choices are twin and quicken at level 3. Besides, if you want to use careful ... one of the best spells for that is hypnotic pattern.

- having the option to quicken eldritch blast+agonizing blast+ possibly hex (4d10+4d6+16 possible damage at level 5 assuming 18 cha) gives the sorcerer the option of putting out higher than average damage in a round. It's just an option and often a sorcerer will have better choices. However, I know that in the case of my mid-level bard (8 total), having eldritch+agonizing blast gives him something useful to cast when he isn't casting a spell ... and it is far better than his available weapon attacks or vicious mockery (though this will get used situationally).

- A sorcerer can't use sorcery points for a shield spell. It costs a bonus action to convert sorcery points into a level 1 spell slot in order to cast shield .. so if you want to do that you plan ahead. Also, it seems to me that the sorcerer will choose to burn spell slots to replenish sorcery points typically after combat if at all possible ... otherwise it also costs a bonus action to convert spell slots to sorcery points.

- "main" reason for creating a sorlock probably overstates it ... but it is a common reason.

- in combat use of healing spirit is actually pretty inefficient. If the druid moves it on top of an ally they can get a d6 of healing each round whether they need it or not. The druid can only move it on their turn. If a character moves to make use of it on their turn then they may be subject to op attacks. An opponent can step into the space occupied by the healing spirit and prevent its use. If the druid plans to stay in their normal form then they can just use healing word which is much better. If they change shape into a beast then it is may not be useful to cast healing spirit before knowing if it will be needed. In addition, the druid would also not be able to cast other concentration spells that might be more useful in their changed form. If neither of the other party members can cast a heal spell and the druid is shape changed then an unlucky crit can leave a party member bleeding out on the ground. Out of combat, healing spirit is very useful of course :)

- as for devil's sight ... I've found it useful. In full darkness it gets rid of disadvantage on perception checks. It also allows attacks at 60 to 120' with advantage against folks with just 60' darkvision. It does work very well with the darkness spell. For a character without darkvision it does provide a significant improvement in their ability to see in the dark. As you mention though, in this party, the OP could cast darkvision with 3 levels of sorcerer and the druid can also cast it. However, since Dragonborn don't have darkvision either, the party will be burning quite a few spell slots to see in the dark and it can always be dispelled ... so I suspect they will be carrying torches/lanterns/light cantrip fairly frequently. Also, since sorcerer spells known are very limited they would probably prefer not having to spend one on darkvision.

- anyway, all the invocations are situational but fun and I usually think they are worth the second warlock level. In addition, another one of the common dips for sorcerer is level 3 warlock for pact of the tome and ritual casting of up to second level spells.

- I am not sure why you would need to be a thief to use the healer feat ... the feat states that it costs your action to heal d6+4 hps ... which presumably anyone could do ... the thief can't use their fast hands to utilize the healer feat as a bonus action if that is what you were considering. However, unlike healing word, the healer feat costs an action instead of a bonus action and requires the healer to be next to the character being healed.

- however, if the party is wealthy enough, I suppose they could try to rely on healing potions :)

- finally, I've played in parties consisting of ranged characters and the fundamental problem is that the players often do NOT get to dictate the range of the encounter. They can try to engage from a distance if they are stealthy and can control the situation but there are a lot of encounters where this is simply not possible and at least one character will be forced into melee. The hexblade dip with medium armor/shield/access to shield spell and a melee cantrip like shocking grasp helps the sorcerer/warlock be competitive at low level in melee. Using your hex warrior weapon might generate more damage but without warcaster you won't be able to cast shield while wielding the weapon and a shield.

Anyway, last comments:
- if you aren't stuck on the dragon theme consider a divine soul sorcerer since you can take bless and healing word which will provide a good party buff and the backup healing the group will likely need.
- the hexblade dip helps immensely with your AC ... and you can pick up hex which will increase damage (though depending on what your other party members do you are probably more likely to be concentrating on bless).


Finally, bard also offers a lot of utility. One reason folks choose to focus on sorcerer is to maximize their sorcery points. However, if you really want to be a draconic sorcerer then 3 levels of bard will offer a lot in terms of skills (if you go lore), song of rest, jack of all trades, access to healing word and some other spells as well as the college features (I personally like lore ... but others are also good). However, this will really delay your spell progression by a lot and third level spells (acquired at 5th level in straight class) are a significant power upgrade in most cases.

One more ... charisma is so important to all these classes since spell DC is based off it that I would spend all ASI on increasing charisma to 20 before most anything else. Inspiring leader is a good feat but a few temp hps likely won't be as useful as increased to hit and spell save DCs.

Citan
2018-08-23, 03:15 PM
It's interesting that we pretty much came up with similar suggestions while you disagreed with pretty much everything I said :)

A few comments:

1- the sorcerer only has 2 meta magic options (until level 10) so all your examples of cool things to do with meta-magic aren't simultaneously possible. The most frequent choices are twin and quicken at level 3. Besides, if you want to use careful ... one of the best spells for that is hypnotic pattern.

2- having the option to quicken eldritch blast+agonizing blast+ possibly hex (4d10+4d6+16 possible damage at level 5 assuming 18 cha) gives the sorcerer the option of putting out higher than average damage in a round. It's just an option and often a sorcerer will have better choices. However, I know that in the case of my mid-level bard (8 total), having eldritch+agonizing blast gives him something useful to cast when he isn't casting a spell ... and it is far better than his available weapon attacks or vicious mockery (though this will get used situationally).

3- A sorcerer can't use sorcery points for a shield spell. It costs a bonus action to convert sorcery points into a level 1 spell slot in order to cast shield .. so if you want to do that you plan ahead. Also, it seems to me that the sorcerer will choose to burn spell slots to replenish sorcery points typically after combat if at all possible ... otherwise it also costs a bonus action to convert spell slots to sorcery points.

4- "main" reason for creating a sorlock probably overstates it ... but it is a common reason.

5- in combat use of healing spirit is actually pretty inefficient. If the druid moves it on top of an ally they can get a d6 of healing each round whether they need it or not. The druid can only move it on their turn. If a character moves to make use of it on their turn then they may be subject to op attacks. An opponent can step into the space occupied by the healing spirit and prevent its use. If the druid plans to stay in their normal form then they can just use healing word which is much better. If they change shape into a beast then it is may not be useful to cast healing spirit before knowing if it will be needed. In addition, the druid would also not be able to cast other concentration spells that might be more useful in their changed form. If neither of the other party members can cast a heal spell and the druid is shape changed then an unlucky crit can leave a party member bleeding out on the ground. Out of combat, healing spirit is very useful of course :)

6- as for devil's sight ... I've found it useful. In full darkness it gets rid of disadvantage on perception checks. It also allows attacks at 60 to 120' with advantage against folks with just 60' darkvision. It does work very well with the darkness spell. For a character without darkvision it does provide a significant improvement in their ability to see in the dark. As you mention though, in this party, the OP could cast darkvision with 3 levels of sorcerer and the druid can also cast it. However, since Dragonborn don't have darkvision either, the party will be burning quite a few spell slots to see in the dark and it can always be dispelled ... so I suspect they will be carrying torches/lanterns/light cantrip fairly frequently. Also, since sorcerer spells known are very limited they would probably prefer not having to spend one on darkvision.

7- anyway, all the invocations are situational but fun and I usually think they are worth the second warlock level. In addition, another one of the common dips for sorcerer is level 3 warlock for pact of the tome and ritual casting of up to second level spells.

8- I am not sure why you would need to be a thief to use the healer feat ... the feat states that it costs your action to heal d6+4 hps ... which presumably anyone could do ... the thief can't use their fast hands to utilize the healer feat as a bonus action if that is what you were considering. However, unlike healing word, the healer feat costs an action instead of a bonus action and requires the healer to be next to the character being healed.

9- however, if the party is wealthy enough, I suppose they could try to rely on healing potions :)

10- finally, I've played in parties consisting of ranged characters and the fundamental problem is that the players often do NOT get to dictate the range of the encounter. They can try to engage from a distance if they are stealthy and can control the situation but there are a lot of encounters where this is simply not possible and at least one character will be forced into melee. The hexblade dip with medium armor/shield/access to shield spell and a melee cantrip like shocking grasp helps the sorcerer/warlock be competitive at low level in melee. Using your hex warrior weapon might generate more damage but without warcaster you won't be able to cast shield while wielding the weapon and a shield.

Anyway, last comments:
11- if you aren't stuck on the dragon theme consider a divine soul sorcerer since you can take bless and healing word which will provide a good party buff and the backup healing the group will likely need.
- the hexblade dip helps immensely with your AC ... and you can pick up hex which will increase damage (though depending on what your other party members do you are probably more likely to be concentrating on bless).


12Finally, bard also offers a lot of utility. One reason folks choose to focus on sorcerer is to maximize their sorcery points. However, if you really want to be a draconic sorcerer then 3 levels of bard will offer a lot in terms of skills (if you go lore), song of rest, jack of all trades, access to healing word and some other spells as well as the college features (I personally like lore ... but others are also good). However, this will really delay your spell progression by a lot and third level spells (acquired at 5th level in straight class) are a significant power upgrade in most cases.

13 One more ... charisma is so important to all these classes since spell DC is based off it that I would spend all ASI on increasing charisma to 20 before most anything else. Inspiring leader is a good feat but a few temp hps likely won't be as useful as increased to hit and spell save DCs.
Ooof.

Ok, I'll try not to miss anything.
First, thanks for staying on the constructive side, although I made have used some "definitive tone" in my post. :) Now on reaction.

1. Metamagics choice: yeah, of course you only have 2, I just wanted to give an array of examples. :)
While on that, OP, if you're interested in Careful metamagic, better check first with DM if it would be ruled RAW (auto-save every time spell effect require one) or "twitter-RAI" (only on casting turn). Value will vary wildly depending on that and the spells you fancy.

2. Nova damage with Quicken: I get what you mean, but I don't think it's any contradicting with what I said actually. :)
You say it's great to deal high damage "when you have nothing better to do", but how much would that really happen?
Sorcerer can get several spells that can be sustained and used again with a bonus action (Dust Devil, Flaming Sphere, Misty Step to quote the obvious to me but from what I recall there are about 10 or so). Even more so as a Divine Soul (add Healing Words, Shield of Faith, Sanctuary, Spiritual Weapon). And multiclassing Bard "doesn't help" (Healing Words, Heat Metal, Magic Secrets opening up Bigby's Hand and the like...).
Second, I tried to make the points that "just for a bit more damage now", you may find yourself hungry for sorcery points one or two rounds later.
Granted, you can still burn a slot for sorcery points as a bonus action, but that's not necessarily the best action/resource economy.
Also, you bring your current character as an example, but it kinda goes to my side imo, considering it's a level 8: you already have sustainable spells, several of which are encounter-winning enough that you want to stay at bay to ensure concentration won't be broken, and you have enough SP to make a "nova start" with Quicken while still having enough SP for whatever comes next round (like a Subtle Fear, or a Heigthened Blindness against a caster).
And you have two rays, so 4 total, each on which you get extra damage and more importantly ability to push 10 feet (so you could completely put a melee-only enemy out of service for a round ^^).
IMO, the "Quickened nova" is exactly the same kind of tactics as the Divine Smite (confer the Elven Accuracy thread that derailed ^^): it's great because it basically doubles the potential damage output, but it comes at great expense too, so it's something to use sparely "as a bonus/emergency bet" rather than a "go-to everyday thing". Imx at least. :)

3. Emergency Shield: agreed on all you said. Obviously I was imagining a situation where Sorcerer gets cornered and has just not enough for a Misty Step so prepares for the worse. :)

4. Main -> common: yeah, this I perfectly agree that it's often one reason pointed out by people here. Not saying it's a good reason however (unless people know they will reach char level 8 and beyond). But you probably guessed so... I mean, otherwise I wouldn't have been so critical about it in the first place. ^^

5. Healing Spirit as a combat spell: You make valid points, but they just illustrate that it's not an everyday, "cast&forget" or "cast&win" spell like some others may be. ^^
First, it's obviously a spell you'd upcast when it feels 1d6 is not enough, but you have the freedom to choose to do so, or not, depending on your analysis of upcoming threat.
Second, about "possible waste of healing", the example I gave was a specific one for a reason: some classes get many tools to aggro. A Paladin could Compelled Duel or Command, a Cleric or Divine Soul Sorcerer could Spirit Guardians... So "in general", there are actually many ways to make it work for good: either because party has ways to force enemy position (aforementioned spells, also Dissonant Whispers, Fear, Repelling Blast, Thorns Whip, PAM feat, Sentinel feat, etc), or because you are in an environment that naturally provides chokepoints so it's easy to organize a "You Shall Not Pass" defense.
As soon as you have one character actively bringing heat on him, you can count on it getting hurt for far more than 1d6 or 2d6.

But that's not the only benefit of Healing Spirit.
The benefit of Healing Spirit, in Druid hands, is...
- in example above, ensuring that the guy holding the frontline WILL gets its turn, *without any action on your part*. Even if it was at 0 HP with 2 failed saves. Even if yourself are too far away, too "frail" to venture close by for a Healing Words / Spare the Dying or just out of slots.
This means not only you get an "automatic Healing Words/Death Ward" effect (unless enemies decide to pull it away from the zone, which is indeed very possible when fighting intelligent ones, but it also means they use their action on that instead of hitting)...
It also means you are free to 100% use your turn, action and bonus action alike.

Outside of this specific set-up, Healing Spirit is a much better use of a slot than successive Healing Words, unless the party is really spreaded out (but then how come many fell at the same time?). Why?
Obvious first: as soon as you expect 3 or more "stand-up" to do, it's a net win in resource economy.
Less obvious next: when you face powerful enemies and expect a high risk of having several people get downed at the same time, it's a net win in action economy on top of resource economy: because you can cast Healing Spirit to heal one guy first turn (no change here) then...
1. If there is really an emergency and it's technically doable, have the guy that stood up grapple his friend and bring him into the aura (example: party started fight a bit too tightly together, there was caster, there was a Shatter/Fireball, crisis ensued).
2. Otherwise, on next turn, you can either move up Healing Spirit one way while you move another to cast Cure Wounds to heal two different guys, or move up Healing Spirit and cast and offensive spell (whereas casting Healing Words would condemn you to cantrip instead), or cast Healing Words on one guy.
Or any combination of any of that.

Even "worse" for a Moon Druid.
- For a defensive character, it's just completely trumps the "healing through slot as bonus action" feature.
- For a character that is counted upon for healing by allies, it's a great way to keep people up without having to get out of Wild Shape early because, let's be honest, uttering words or manipulating neeldes is hard as a beast usually. ^^

In context of OP's party, the most suited for that is probably Rogue.
a) His high damage per single attack will probably draw aggro naturally. Especially since he can deal it with ranged weapon, thrown weapon or melee weapon, putting aside the "how to enable Sneak Attack" problem...
Which is actually the biggest argument against Healing Spirit, when the same character could instead try and keep up a Faerie Fire. ^^
It's not the only option though.
- If Moon Druid, can help Rogue by frontlining to enable Sneak Attack or even generate advantage by going for a form with prone effects (and later high STR and multiattacks).
- Provided DM agrees too (not sure if RAW, RAI or houserule), Rogue dual-wielding could use its Attack to Shove the creature prone with his weapon then make an attack with the bonus action.
An Arcane Trickster could sustain a Fog Cloud to Hide himself into, a Swash actually prefers being alone, a Thief could try and set up trap to make creatures fall...
After a few levels up, options expand to generate advantage one way or another, before even multiclassing or feats.
b) His decent defense & hit die, natural evasion and later reaction to halve damage when resilience is the priority makes him a good candidate.

Or, with choice of Divine Soul, putting a Warding Bond on either Rogue or Moon Druid will make them fine tanks. Actually Moon Druid even better at low level if you push a bit of investment (Mage Armor for average +2 boost, and with Warding Bond lasting one hour you can often make it affect both uses of Wild Shape).


6. Devil's Sight: I may have been unclear on my opinion. I love that Invocation. And I don't deny it's extremely useful paired with Darkness.
I just pointed out that, again, in OP's party context...
- As a way to overcome non-racial darkvision, it was vastly overkill when party can shore it up with just one 2nd level spell prepared when you *really* need it today.
- As the award-winning (including award of "being a pain for party if not careful" ^^) combo, OP would not get Darkness before level 4-5 best case anyways. So, considering the previous point, it's mostly useless to get Invocation *before* you learn Darkness and have enough fuel to make it a sustainable tactic (meaning caster level 5 at least, or continue Warlock for 2nd level slots on short-rest, further delaying other spell progression).

7. Invocations in general and Pact feature: I'll wholeheartdely agree with you that Invocations are overall useful whatever you pick; I'm just saying none of them (except when specific mechanical or thematical goal) is worth delaying spellcasting progression.
As for Tome Pact, I'm one of the guys advocating for it the most. And for a small party that doesn't have a Wizard, it can be a pretty strong option for rituals. But, it requires DM to be working towards, not against. And if that is a given, considering there is already Druid, party could be fine simply with someone (preferably not Druid to balance responsabilities) picking up Ritual Caster: Wizard feat instead. And about cantrips, it's mostly similar in value to Bard dip's cantrips: you have more choice, but the pool of Sorcerer, Bard and Warlock together comes damn close. :)
If only reason for OP to dip Bard was cantrips, I'd agree that it would be better to invest into more Warlock.
Didn't seem to be the case for me though.
Then comes the spell progression problem, confer my point in previous post: in the long-run, since OP wants (from what I get) still "play a spellcaster" (so aiming for higher spells), Bard levels will hurt much less than Warlock levels because at least it gives more slots for higher power.

8. "I am not sure why you would need to be a thief to use the healer feat"
You are perfectly right, there is no need for a specific class or any other kind of requirement for that matter.
I said that simply because, of all three people in OP's party, Rogue going Thief would be best suited, simply because he could use the kit with either action OR bonus action (OR both -on different people of course- XD).
On that topic...
- I think for a three-man party, this is a golden feat, as Inspiring Leader.
- And whatever archetype, Rogue is the most suited to pick it because a) Druid has healing spells for emergencies b) Sorcerer is the only one that can pick Inspiring Leader c) both caster crave for other feats and have only 5 ASI, while Rogue works overall fine without any feat, while having 6 ASI.

9. Healing Potions: the big caveat here is indeed the cost, with next in league the storage. Latter can be manage with some storage magical items. Former... Yeah, no way around it: at low levels (imx at least) you're crying that potions are so expensive, completely agreed on that.
(Actually my players readily complained about the 50GP cost, saying things like "it's a typo" or "WoTc are plain trolling us", and those are the nicest quotes XD).
There are ways around that for OP's party (*cough* Life Cleric 1 for Druid *cough*), but apart from Extend Divine Soul would overall rely on friends multiclassing, and it's not necessarily a good thing to "recommend" build ideas to other.

10. "The hexblade dip with medium armor/shield/access to shield spell and a melee cantrip like shocking grasp helps the sorcerer/warlock be competitive at low level in melee." But I completely agreed on that in the first place you know? (the part when first level dip is extra good. Not the part when it makes you competitive in melee. Not at low level, AC 19 or not, Shield or not):)
I was criticizing the idea of "taking a 2nd level of Warlock right now". Nothing more. :)
Once someone has at least 5-6 levels in one caster class (preferably 7 though ^^) imo anything goes, mostly. There are simply too many good spells at 2nd + 3rd (and imo 4th) level to get that affect party's quality of life.
I would obviously nuance the opinion for other parties. For someone playing in a party with already a Druid and Wizard for example, I'd say "do what the heck you want, the others cover enough 'spellcasting base' already".
But a 3-man party, with only one other caster? It just seems imprudent to me to rely on a single guy to learn and manage encounter-changing spells.
And it's imo from levels 1 to 7 that those Fear/Slow/Haste/Web/Hypnotic Pattern/Fireball deal the most decisive difference imo, because you still die damn quick at those levels. While past level 9-10, you have more powerful class features, threat-adverting or large-scale manipulation/adventuring spells, and enough wealth to shore up weakness one way or another (hiring NPC, stocking up potions and magic equipment etc).

EDIT: already spent more than one hour, might as well give feedback on your "last, last-last and last-last-last" points. XD

11 (Warlock spell choice). OP, FIY, completely agree on that (note: Hex is good *also* out of combat, *especially* with Subtle ;)).
In you plan in (very) long-run, Armor of Agathys *may* be a good second choice, otherwise Expeditious Retreat or Comprehend Languages will stay useful for a very long time.

12 (Bard benefits). Agreed on that, that's why I recommended (or at least I think I did ^^) to first aim for a caster 5. On that note, you could reverse the point though: just 3 levels of Sorcerer could make a great deal on a Bard. XD
2nd level may be worth taking earlier for Jack of All Trades though. It means that the party has a whole will have a great chance to win any kind of checks.
On another hand, between background and class proficiencies, if party try to balance character fluff and "party coverage", they should at least cover all 8 important ones, so not sure Jack of All Trades would come handy *that* often.
Especially if OP wants to lean on the support side and grab Enhance Ability + Subtle metamagic to use in those situations.
At higher level it's a different thing: once Sorcerer can grab Empowered Skill, Jack of All Trades becomes kinda a prime feature (since per the incredible ruling about JoAT / Reliable Talent interaction, Skill Empowerement should work as well).

13 (Inspiring Leader vs +2 CHA). Disagree on that, more or less :)
Rather more than less to be honest, *especially in OP's context*.
No argue that if we were to take the argument "in general", it would probably end simply as "it's a YMMV thing".
If the party overall feels they didn't fear for their lives too often by level 4...
AND OP wants to be on the offense side...
Then yeah bumping CHA is the best choice.

Otherwise?
- CHA does not affect spell known, and you can get enough good spells that don't care about it to blow all slots every day. :)
- Eldricht Blast, confer discussion above: for one ray, it's not worth twisting brain. You can wait level 8.
- Inspiring Leader will already net 8 THP per short rest. Not much at a glance, but we are talking about a party with one guy very motivated to get short rests (Druid, cause Wild Shape at least), one guy that will have not too lesser motivation (OP, for short-rest 1st level slot and Hexblade's curse), and one guy who may at least want it to use hit die, and possibly more if picking Healer feat.
And we are talking about a party that...
- Has access (already) to Pass Without Trace (Druid): easier to sneak out/sneak by to find a safe place).
- Has access (next level) to Catnap (Sorcerer): non-concentration so can affect self, 10mn to get short-rest benefits.
- Has access (next level) to Water Breathing (Druid): meaning technically nothing prevents you from (short-)resting underwater. :)
- Can invest a bit to get access to Leomund's Tiny Hut (either Tome Pact for OP, or Ritual Caster feat for anyone) not too late.
- Could invest into Rope Trick (Rogue dual-classing Ranger -but means much later-, or OP going Lore Bard main instead of Sorcerer).
- And has, per party composition and small size, 99.9999% chance of seeing everyone suffering at the very least one hit every fight.

So party should normally have both motivation and means to take at least 1 short rest "guaranteed", probably 2 per day even in hostile environment, if not more.
Meaning you can now expect 16 HP per character, soon enough 40 per character...
And when party can prepare for a fight, you can even boost a "high CR Conjure Animals".
So, it's obviously impossible to give any accurate estimation, but unless playing a very hard campaign or with a kinda antagonistic DM, at least Catnap guarantees optimal use of two Inspiring Leader (one at start of day, one more between two encounters since it's usually not that hard to create a safe place for 10mn, even in hostile environment like an enemy dungeon).
Meaning at level 4, you can count on Inspiring Leader sparing you a conservative total of 8*3=24 THP. And in many adventuring days, you can get another 24.
At level 5, the "minimum" number goes straight up to 9*3*2 for the cost of one spell learned and "reserverd" (Catnap), so a total of 54 THP.
At level 6, if/when Druid starts using Conjure Animals as his go-to tactic (because that spell is like a whole class in itself really ;), and he has enough slots for that), you can make animals last in average one round more. Meaning a hefty lot of attacks diverted from your party, and a good chunk of added damage.
Etc etc.
Especially at low levels when you are always in an existential crisis as a caster whether to use a slot on heal or keep it for next fight, when -as we both agreed on- money is scarce relative to the cost of equipment and potions, and when there the party composition makes it very likely that everyone will get their share of hurt every fight (no Bear Barbarian, no turtling EK / shield Paladin)...
Inspiring Leader rules hard. :)