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OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 04:41 PM
Okay... already posted up on the Character Builder thread, but it's been a few days and there's not a single response, and it says that it's okay to make your own thread for it, so... figured I might actually get some feedback with a thread.

Lookin' for some advice and feedback on the traitor with the broken heart, Magnus Graven.

Alright, so, I'm joining up with an Eberron game with a sort of "All Quiet on the Western Front" theme set during the Last War, with the players fighting for Karrnath and starting at level 2.

My character, Magnus Graven, is an exiled Aundairian human wizard from Arcanix branded with the Mark of Outlaw. I can't really say much more than that, because I know some players read this forum and I don't want to give away his backstory.

Anyways, I'm thinking of doing something along the lines of Rogue 1 / Wizard (Diviner, Enchantment barred) 5 / Unseen Seer 10 / Arcane Trickster 4.

Enchantment is barred because I don't want to give up Evocation (Contingency, Wall of Force, and handy rays are all good for this guy) or Necromancy (I... I'm in Karrnath... I can't not have it! XD. Moreover, things like Avasculate and Enervation make for wonderful sneak attacks.)

Ability scores are 32 point buy, and I'm thinking something like:

Str 8
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 8

As for feats, I'm getting one extra bonus feat at level 1 as a result of houserules (the Mark of Outlaw counted as a flaw). So, I'm thinking of taking...

1: Able Learner (Lets me qualify for Unseen Seer more easily, and helps me as a skill monkey), Insightful Divination (Pretty obvious reasons: It gives me more init and more saves for doing what I do anyways), Practiced Spellcaster (Practiced Spellcaster negates the CL penalties from the Rogue level and Unseen Seer. Insightful divination gives a healthy boost to his initiative and saves all day when casting from his favored school. Improved Init boost his high init even higher. Another possibility I considered was taking Collegiate Wizard at level 1.)
3: Improved Initiative (Makes my high init even higher)
6: Wizard Bonus Feat replaced with Spontaneous Divination from Complete Champion (lets me cast my divination spells spontaneously), and Acidic Splatter (added to give me a consistent source of sneak attack without even needing to blow through spells per day. Also makes my Acid Orbs slightly better.)
9: Extend Spell (Useful for making that 1 round Hunter's Eye two rounds, as well as lots of other things.)
12: Quicken Spell (It's... quicken spell. I mean, come on. Who wouldn't take it?)
15: ??? (I haven't planned this far ahead...)
18: ??? (I haven't planned this far ahead...)

I'll be taking a Raven familiar named Xerxes, and he'll have my skill ranks, and that means he'll have UMD (as well as all those other handy rogue skills), making him an excellent scout and support in that regard alone. He can talk, so he can use the verbal components and command words for items. I'm also considering giving him a custom magic item of Ray of Frost, allowing him to consistently dish out damage when he benefits from my Hunter's Eye via Share Spells. Additionally, Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability and shared spells like, say, Trollform will help him to dish out some more damage with those sneak attacks.

As for spells, I'm thinking at the start I'll take Light of Lunia, which, shared with my familiar, will give me 4d6 damage with touch attacks (5d6 with sneak attack) or 9d6 against undead and outsiders. I'll be taking Familiar Pocket, Color Spray, Silent Image, Sniper Shot, Mage Armor, and Shield to round out the startin' list. Additional options I've considered include Golem/Grave strike, Comprehend Languages, and Enlarge Person.

In the longer term, I intend to pick up Cloud of Knives, Acid Orb, and Avasculate. I figure my high level attack routine will look something along the lines of...

"I have +25 or so init, hang out invisible all day, and use divinations to know where you are and always get the drop. Then, I use extended Hunter's Eye shared with my familiar, as well as shared Cloud of Knives, ambush, and hit the enemy down to half hp with no save (and force a fort save or stun) with Avasculate, in addition to about +15d6 sneak attack damage. Then I sneak with a quickened Acid Orb. Then I hit with the familiar's stored spell (some up-to-5th level blaster thing, say, Orb of Electricity), and he sneaks too from the Shared Hunter's Eye. Then we both get another sneak out of Cloud of Knives."

Totalling up, it'll hit people with several touches, force a save against stunning, a save against sickening, another save against stunning, and *no save* against 91d6+10 *after* dropping the enemy to half hp with no save. And, doesn't even take any 9th level slots or anything. I can also Golem Strike (at a cost of doing 30d6 less damage, but eh) or gravestrike to take care of those pesky immune people.

Now, I'm wondering what other spells might be useful for a sneak-attacking mage, what other feats might be useful, and really anything to make the concept work better. Please note that stuff like Polymorph, Celerity, Wraithstrike, Divine Metamagic, Persistent Spell, White Raven Tactics, Belt of Battle, and the like are all thankfully banned :)

I've also considered Ocular Spell, but that too looks to be a little on the "too good for comfort" side. Oh, and no Craven.

...So, anything I should be doing? Never played a Rogue/Wizard before.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 04:55 PM
I would say that a better choice than Rogue would be Spellthief, but for the fact that Spellthief is Cha-centric, while Rogue is Int-centric and therefore has synergy with Wizard.

But taking the Master Spellthief feat would mean that you don't lose a caster level on either side of your progression, can cast any spell in light armor, give you Steal Spell that stacks with your Wizard levels, and would still retain Trapfinding and Sneak Attack.

This'd give you a variety of ways to make use of your sneak attack beyond raw damage, though it'd be largely dependent on your foes having spells to steal. Then again, the Spellthief description does not make any sort of requirement as to the type of spell you can steal, so feel free to swipe divine spells too.

If you're set on Rogue, more power to you. Looks like the build you've set is fine, but there's a variety of spells I'd recommend:

Critical Strike (CMag): Though you're not going to get this without the Unseen Seer's expanded spells, this is pretty worthwhile to grab.

Armor Lock (CScn): Perfect against armored humanoid opponents. For a first-level spell, it reduces speed and they lose their Dex to AC for the duration...making them a valid target for Sneak Attack.

Distract Assailant (SC): Swift-action flatfooting? It's like flanking by yourself!

Ray of Stupidity (SC): Int damage plus sneak attack (plus thievery if you're a Spellthief).

Wracking Touch (SC): Free Sneak Attack for a touch attack.

Bands of Steel (SC): Paralysis is an excellent way to obtain Sneak Attack or take someone out of battle, and this is a good way to do so.

Defenestrating Sphere (SC): Surprisingly, you can Sneak Attack with this.

Healer's Vision (SC): +2 bonus on attack and damage when making a precision attack. This is a nice spell, but it's really rather situational.

Sonic Blast (SC): Better than Ray of Flame or Ray of Frost since it deafens in addition to its damage.

Ice Knife (SC): Dex damage, cold damage, sneak attackable, and it grenades if you miss.
[hr]
Similarly, I'd suggest avoiding the following:

Ray of Clumsiness (SC): Would be terrific—if it dealt damage. It deals a penalty, so you can't sneak attack with it.

Phantom Foe (SC): It sounds good on paper. It really isn't.

Vital Strike (SC): Free sneak attack? Yes please. Of course, there's the part where it's Assassin 3. There's also the part where it says "...nor does it allow you to make use of other abilities—such as certain feats—that deal ability damage, or otherwise grant you extra benefits, when you make a sneak attack."
[hr]
Oh, also note that Cloud of Knives fires at the beginning of your turn, not the end. It's pretty often overlooked.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-09-13, 05:39 PM
As far as banned school and Evocation... there's really no reason why you can't do it. Contingency can be done with Greater Shadow Evocation (and what Diviner would be without Illusion spells?), so can Wall of Force. For rays... Conjuration is far better. Lesser Orb of <element> and <element> orb, both of which can be both sonic and acid, are going to be better than things like Scorching Ray, which you only get a single ray doing precision-based damage anyways, and both are ranged touch attacks, thus you can apply sneak attack, and neither allow SR, which can be important as you progress in levels.

Shivering Touch. 3d6 dex damage on touch attack. Use a single level of Archmage once you qualify for Arcane Reach, which lets it have a range of 30'.

Unseen Seer... it hurts your other spells somewhat, but can be useful. I'd suggest a 5 level dip. This gives +2d6 SA, Silent Spell, two Advanced Learning, and Guarded Mind. From there, dip further into Arcane Trickster with a final splash of Archmage. So the build you're looking at is something like Rogue1/Wiz8/Unseen Seer5/Arcane Trickster10/Archmage1.

I'd also suggest considering a Sorcerer build rather than Wizard, simply because Advanced Learning is so much more powerful for a Sorcerer, and you will likely not need such a vast repitoire of spells in your role as magical rogue, but you may need their depth to last through a day, and Cha also nicely meshes with both Rogue (bluff and UMD, anyone?) and Spellthief.

Reel On, Love
2007-09-13, 05:53 PM
Practiced Spellcaster cancels out the lost levels.

Spellthief makes a good pick instead of Rogue if you go for Master Spellthief. Apart from that, try the Acidic Splatter reserve feat (maybe with PBS/Precise Shot).

Cloud of Knives is a great spell to use to get an extra sneak attack/round in. Once you persist Hunter's Eye, you can share both it and Cloud of Knives with your familiar, letting your familiar sneak attack, too.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 06:30 PM
I would say that a better choice than Rogue would be Spellthief, but for the fact that Spellthief is Cha-centric, while Rogue is Int-centric and therefore has synergy with Wizard. I've never used a spellthief before, so I'll have to look it up.


But taking the Master Spellthief feat would mean that you don't lose a caster level on either side of your progression, can cast any spell in light armor, give you Steal Spell that stacks with your Wizard levels, and would still retain Trapfinding and Sneak Attack. Hmmm, where's Master Spellthief? Same book? (Am away from book right now...)


Wracking Touch (SC): Free Sneak Attack for a touch attack. Am I missing something? When I looked at this, it looked really bad even if you had sneak attack... because you're only getting the sneak attack damage + 1d6 + CL (which is totally lame) and the only benefit in return is that you don't have to meet all the usual SA requirements.


Bands of Steel (SC): Paralysis is an excellent way to obtain Sneak Attack or take someone out of battle, and this is a good way to do so. Huh, looks okay if only because it's an unusual save type (reflex) compared to many other disabling spells. Never noticed this spell before, for some reason.


Defenestrating Sphere (SC): Surprisingly, you can Sneak Attack with this. Really? I never noticed that! Defenestration just got even sexier. :smallbiggrin:


Phantom Foe (SC): It sounds good on paper. It really isn't.
Heheh, it sounds good on paper? It didn't sound good to me at all... standard action and then they get a will save? I might as well be killing/disabling them or making them my ally if they're failing a will save from a standard action spell.


Vital Strike (SC): Free sneak attack? Yes please. Of course, there's the part where it's Assassin 3. There's also the part where it says "...nor does it allow you to make use of other abilities—such as certain feats—that deal ability damage, or otherwise grant you extra benefits, when you make a sneak attack."
<hr>
Are you sure that spell is in the Spell Compendium? :smallwink:



Healer's Vision (SC): +2 bonus on attack and damage when making a precision attack. This is a nice spell, but it's really rather situational. Uhm, are you sure this spell is in the SC? IIRC, that one's Complete Scoundrel. :smallwink:


Oh, also note that Cloud of Knives fires at the beginning of your turn, not the end. It's pretty often overlooked.

Still awesome, and all the more reason to use extended hunter's eye.


Cloud of Knives is a great spell to use to get an extra sneak attack/round in. Once you persist Hunter's Eye, you can share both it and Cloud of Knives with your familiar, letting your familiar sneak attack, too.

As mentioned in the first post, Persistent Cheese is NOT allowed.



Shivering Touch. 3d6 dex damage on touch attack. Use a single level of Archmage once you qualify for Arcane Reach, which lets it have a range of 30'. Shivering Touch is also not allowed. (Well, technically, the DM doesn't expressly disallow it, but it's a level of cheese that I'm not willing to cross).


As far as banned school and Evocation... there's really no reason why you can't do it. Contingency can be done with Greater Shadow Evocation (and what Diviner would be without Illusion spells?), so can Wall of Force. For rays... Conjuration is far better. Lesser Orb of <element> and <element> orb, both of which can be both sonic and acid, are going to be better than things like Scorching Ray, which you only get a single ray doing precision-based damage anyways, and both are ranged touch attacks, thus you can apply sneak attack, and neither allow SR, which can be important as you progress in levels. I know, but *all* my casters were banning Evocation. Plus, no Enchantment actually works well for his RP theme.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 06:45 PM
Master Spellthief is in Complete Scoundrel. Wracking Touch is good because you don't have to meet SA reqs. If you have a class feature or feat powered by Sneak Attack--such as any of the Ambush feats from CScn or most of the Spellthief's class features--you can still convert your damage to power those. Furthermore, if you do qualify for Sneak Attack with the spell's touch attack, you get your SA dice twice.

...and, if you're a Spellthief, you can burn a spell you steal when you Wracking Touch into a casting of any spell you know...such as Wracking Touch.

And Vital Strike is probably in some other book. I don't recall off the top of my head.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 06:48 PM
Furthermore, if you do qualify for Sneak Attack with the spell's touch attack, you get your SA dice twice. Ah, well that's the thing I was missing. Just qualifying for free seemed underwhelming.

Person_Man
2007-09-13, 06:50 PM
Build:

Rogue 1/ Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 4 is pretty standard and will work fine. I also like Fax's Spellthief idea.

I'd also note that its far easier to add extra damage via Empower Spell + Easy or Practical Metamagic, instead of Sneak Attack. And you can pull off the exiled rogueishness by simply roleplaying the part. So if your real goal is Spells + Skills, I would say that there are much better PrC out there. You have high Int, so all you really need is the ability to get the Skills you want in class. Are there specific Skills you want?

You could also just go Factotum 1/Whatever X with Able Learner. Get every Skill in class.

Feats:

Impr. Initiative: I think this is a very poor idea. Just cast Celerity (PHBII) if you lose Initiative.

Extend Spell: Not really useful, in my experience. Most spells last 1 round per level or more (i.e., all of combat). The few highly useful spells that last 1 round really aren't worth increasing by +2 CL in order to make them 2 rounds, in most cases.

Empower Spell: More effective then Sneak Attack for adding extra damage.

Easy Metamagic (Dragon Mag) or Practical Metamagic (reqs you to cast spontaneously, which means Sorcerer, Races of the Dragon): Lowers the LA of any 1 metamagic feat by 1. Hugely useful, and you can take it multiple times (once for each metamagic feat).

Staggering Strike: Complete Adventurer: Enemies you Sneak Attack are staggered for one round, limiting them to a single move or standard action.

Quick Recovery: Lords of Madness: Allows you another Save to recover when you are Stunned or Dazed as a Move action, even if the initial effect didn't allow one. Works great with Celerity, and can be a life saver when fighting Monks, Psions, etc.

Enervate Spell: Libris Mortis: +50% damage to living creatures for +2 LA. Not as good as Empower, but if you also take Easy Metamagic twice, you add +100% damage for only +2 LA.

Split Ray: Complete Arcane: Gives ray spells an additional ray for +2 LA. It requires a separate attack roll and can be fired at a different target. Therefore, it is not part of a volley, and it qualifies for Sneak Attack on its own, doubling your Sneak Attack output.


Spells:

Celerity: PHBII: Interrupt Initiative order to take a Standard Action. You are then dazed for 1 round. Negates the need for Improved Initiative, and works really well with Quick Recovery.

Arcane Fusion: Complete Mage: 2 spells at once. Sorcerer only.

Summon Whatever: Probably the easiest way to gain battlefield control and flanking at once.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 07:07 PM
Okay, well I'm looking at Master Spellthief and the Spellthief class itself now...

and I've gotta say, even if I take Master Spellthief, I still lose the caster level. And I still have to take Practiced Spellcaster. However... no ASF for light armor, and the ability to rip the spells out of people's brains... that sounds fairly cool.

On the other hand, I can't seem to find where it says that I would be able to recover my Wizard spells using the Spellthief's stolen spell power. It seems that you can only recover spellthief spells...

Or am I missing something that makes this more worthwhile than I'm seeing?

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 07:22 PM
Celerity: PHBII: Interrupt Initiative order to take a Standard Action. You are then dazed for 1 round. Negates the need for Improved Initiative, and works really well with Quick Recovery.
Uh... I said in the first post that this spell was banned for its phenomenal brokenosity.


Arcane Fusion: Complete Mage: 2 spells at once. Sorcerer only.


Uh. I'm not a Sorceror.



Feats:

Impr. Initiative: I think this is a very poor idea. Just cast Celerity (PHBII) if you lose Initiative. First post sez: Celerity is banned.


Extend Spell: Not really useful, in my experience. Most spells last 1 round per level or more (i.e., all of combat). The few highly useful spells that last 1 round really aren't worth increasing by +2 CL in order to make them 2 rounds, in most cases. It's important for Hunter's Eye and a few other things, but I've decided to go with Rods of Extend instead to save a feat.



Easy Metamagic (Dragon Mag) or Practical Metamagic (reqs you to cast spontaneously, which means Sorcerer, Races of the Dragon): Lowers the LA of any 1 metamagic feat by 1. Hugely useful, and you can take it multiple times (once for each metamagic feat). Uhm, not a Sorceror.


Staggering Strike: Complete Adventurer: Enemies you Sneak Attack are staggered for one round, limiting them to a single move or standard action. Awesome! Thanks for pointin' it out. I knew there was something like this out there, but I forgot where it was.


Quick Recovery: Lords of Madness: Allows you another Save to recover when you are Stunned or Dazed as a Move action, even if the initial effect didn't allow one. Works great with Celerity, and can be a life saver when fighting Monks, Psions, etc. ...Celerity is banned. See the first post.


Enervate Spell: Libris Mortis: +50% damage to living creatures for +2 LA. Not as good as Empower, but if you also take Easy Metamagic twice, you add +100% damage for only +2 LA. Not a sorceror. Also not dragonblooded or anything (if I recall correctly, Easy meta requires something like that).


Split Ray: Complete Arcane: Gives ray spells an additional ray for +2 LA. It requires a separate attack roll and can be fired at a different target. Therefore, it is not part of a volley, and it qualifies for Sneak Attack on its own, doubling your Sneak Attack output. Huh, and here I was thinkin' it was a volley. Will have to double-check to confirm, though...

Fax Celestis
2007-09-13, 10:32 PM
This is your gold paragraph, from the Steal Spell ability:


After stealing a spell, a spellthief can cast the spell himself on a subsequent turn. Treat the spell as if it were cast by the original owner of the spell for the purpose of determining caster level, save DC, and so forth. A spellthief can cast this spell even if he doesn't have the minimum ability score normally required to cast a spell of that level. The spellthief must supply the same components (including verbal, somatic, material, XP, and any focus) required for the stolen spell. Alternatively, a spellthief of 4th level or higher can use the stolen spell power to cast any spellthief spell that he knows of the same level or lower (effectively, this gives the spellthief one free casting of a known spell). A spellthief must cast a stolen spell (or use its energy to cast one of his own spells) within 1 hour of stealing it; otherwise, the extra spell energy fades harmlessly away.

Also note that you can steal spells from your allies with but a touch. Should need arise, you can also steal your Cleric's ability to spontaneously convert and burn your own--or stolen--spells too.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-13, 10:51 PM
This is your gold paragraph, from the Steal Spell ability:



Also note that you can steal spells from your allies with but a touch. Should need arise, you can also steal your Cleric's ability to spontaneously convert and burn your own--or stolen--spells too.

Yes, I read that, and it says *SPELLTHIEF* spells. Not spells that you have available to you. That's what makes the paragraph... not so gold at all. Unless I'm mistaken.

Alternatively, a spellthief of 4th level or higher can use the stolen spell power to cast any spellthief spell that he knows of the same level or lower (effectively, this gives the spellthief one free casting of a known spell).

If I have one level of Spellthief, I don't actually know any spellthief spells.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-14, 04:21 PM
Lookin' for some advice and feedback on the traitor with the broken heart, Magnus Graven.

Alright, so, I'm joining up with an Eberron game with a sort of "All Quiet on the Western Front" theme set during the Last War, with the players fighting for Karrnath and starting at level 2.

My character, Magnus Graven, is an exiled Aundairian human wizard from Arcanix branded with the Mark of Outlaw. I can't really say much more than that, because I know some players read this forum and I don't want to give away his backstory.

Anyways, I'm thinking of doing something along the lines of Rogue 1 / Wizard (Diviner, Enchantment barred) 5 / Unseen Seer 10 / Arcane Trickster 4.

...So, anything I should be doing? Never played a Rogue/Wizard before.

Probably scale down the game power for ECS campaign PCs. According to Keith's Dragonshard's article at Wizard's on ECS demographics:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a


The highest level NPC wizard in Sharn is a single level 11 wizard. Using Keith's demographics the highest level wizards you could find in Aundair would be found in Fairhaven where the possibility exists that there could be up to 3 level 14 wizards as the highest level wizards in Fairhaven.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-14, 07:42 PM
Probably scale down the game power for ECS campaign PCs. According to Keith's Dragonshard's article at Wizard's on ECS demographics:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a


The highest level NPC wizard in Sharn is a single level 11 wizard. Using Keith's demographics the highest level wizards you could find in Aundair would be found in Fairhaven where the possibility exists that there could be up to 3 level 14 wizards as the highest level wizards in Fairhaven.

Uhm. What? What's the demographics of NPCs have to do with me or planning my character's progression from level 2 onwards? And also, for the record, I've read every dragonshard, a great deal of Keith's posts on the message boards, and followed his articles and his site, on top of having every Eberron sourcebook. ;)

I know what the bloody demographics are. I completely fail to see what your point is supposed to be here.

Seriously, you say something about "reducing the game power for ECS PCs," then link to an article saying that "PCs are important at any level, and despite there not being a lot of humans around with epic levels like some stupid settings (*cough*FR*cough*) Eberron actually offers a lot of epic challenges, and unlike some settings with arbitrarily levelled elminsters, these challenges actually look and feel epic." And say that "the highest NPC level is 14," (wildly untrue, as mentioned in the very article you linked to) which is somehow supposed to be extremely relevant to a discussion about my level 2 character's plans for the future. Huh? :smallconfused:

Edit: If I had to make a guess, I'm thinking you skimmed my post briefly, thought that for some reason I started at level 20 instead of level 2, then read only half that article and got the silly notion that high level games in Eberron don't happen, then combined those two wild misconceptions. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-15, 09:17 AM
Yes, I read that, and it says *SPELLTHIEF* spells. Not spells that you have available to you. That's what makes the paragraph... not so gold at all. Unless I'm mistaken.

Alternatively, a spellthief of 4th level or higher can use the stolen spell power to cast any spellthief spell that he knows of the same level or lower (effectively, this gives the spellthief one free casting of a known spell).

If I have one level of Spellthief, I don't actually know any spellthief spells.

Right, right. I'm so used to playing single-classed Spellthief (or at least Spellthief-centric; Hexblade//Spellthief makes a relatively awesome gestalt) that I forgot it only applies to Spellthief spells. Oh well.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-15, 11:18 PM
Right, right. I'm so used to playing single-classed Spellthief (or at least Spellthief-centric; Hexblade//Spellthief makes a relatively awesome gestalt) that I forgot it only applies to Spellthief spells. Oh well.

Mrrrgh.

Well, any ideas that actually work?