Build help: finite spells... Crafter?

[Quertus]

So, I've noticed that, while I usually play casters, it's usually* of the "all the spells" variety: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, etc. So I'm looking to make a more limited caster.

I'm currently looking at Petal Sorcerer, for good stats and maximum options, but I could easily be convinced to change that. Fixed list casters, different race, whatever.

I'm looking to ease out of my comfort zone, with options that allow for additional casting options. Currently, Mother Cyst sounds like the best limited-investment option, but any advice on the subject is welcome. Or if there's just a thread where this has already been discussed / listed, that would be helpful, too.

Lastly, because, as a limited caster, I might mess the whole "caster" bit up, I'm looking to have a secondary schtick to fall back on. Currently, I'm looking at creating items as a solid option that's hard to mess up. Only... What are my options for doing so as a limited-list caster? And, of those, how many are unambiguous / don't rely on favorable rulings? If Mage of the Arcane Order lets me qualify, then I think I'm good; otherwise, any suggestions better than "use scrolls" (which kinda feels like failing, because, as a Wizard, I could just use the scroll to learn the spell permanently)?

My last thought for creating - even though it would put me a whole spell level behind a Wizard (or two, without LA buyoff) - is to go Effigy Master, to craft some sweet effigies with the cash I'd otherwise normally waste learning all the spells as a Wizard (or on magic gear as a Cleric, etc).

So, for what I'm looking for, am I barking up the right tree? Or is there a better introduction to limited casters?

* I did once play a limited caster who just spammed an AoE SoL spell as their opener, but I'm looking for slightly greater versatility than that.

[daremetoidareyo]

So, I've noticed that, while I usually play casters, it's usually* of the "all the spells" variety: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, etc. So I'm looking to make a more limited caster.

I'm currently looking at Petal Sorcerer, for good stats and maximum options, but I could easily be convinced to change that. Fixed list casters, different race, whatever.

I'm looking to ease out of my comfort zone, with options that allow for additional casting options. Currently, Mother Cyst sounds like the best limited-investment option, but any advice on the subject is welcome. Or if there's just a thread where this has already been discussed / listed, that would be helpful, too.

Lastly, because, as a limited caster, I might mess the whole "caster" bit up, I'm looking to have a secondary schtick to fall back on. Currently, I'm looking at creating items as a solid option that's hard to mess up. Only... What are my options for doing so as a limited-list caster? And, of those, how many are unambiguous / don't rely on favorable rulings? If Mage of the Arcane Order lets me qualify, then I think I'm good; otherwise, any suggestions better than "use scrolls" (which kinda feels like failing, because, as a Wizard, I could just use the scroll to learn the spell permanently)?

My last thought for creating - even though it would put me a whole spell level behind a Wizard (or two, without LA buyoff) - is to go Effigy Master, to craft some sweet effigies with the cash I'd otherwise normally waste learning all the spells as a Wizard (or on magic gear as a Cleric, etc).

So, for what I'm looking for, am I barking up the right tree? Or is there a better introduction to limited casters?

* I did once play a limited caster who just spammed an AoE SoL spell as their opener, but I'm looking for slightly greater versatility than that.

if you're crafting on a limited spell list, you just need to max your umd and buy scrolls with the spells to create the items

[Mike Miller]

Limited list casters don't usually craft because of the wide variety of spells required for crafting. As noted above, you'll need another source for your spells if you do go the crafting route. Magic items (scrolls, wands, etc.), hiring mages, fellow party casters...

[Kelb_Panthera]

My go-to for crafting with spells I don't have (usually for not being a caster at all and using the secrets of the forge class feature) is renting a minor schema. If you can't work out a fair rental price with your GM (I go with 10% of the schema's base price per week) then you should probably pass unless you want the spell once a day as well.

Rune staves are -very- useful to sorcerers as a way to grab what is effectively a few extra spells known, albeit with limits.

[Falontani]

Look into Runestaves, and ancestral relic. Create your runestaff with ancestral relic to be able to change what's on your staff, and recharge your staff during downtime. Use your runestaff to fuel your creation feats.
1 level of sandshaper grants a huge number of spells known. If you have wisdom you can pick up the magic domain for access to anyspell via the feat from complete divine (forgot it's name) which can be used to help fuel crafting. Finally there is the planar touchstone catalogues of enlightenment which give full access to a domain power, and limited access to it's spells. Dragon compendium has some feats that add 9 spells to your spells known, but rip 9 others off of it, these can very easily become a trap. With these and scribe scroll, craft wand, craft staff, or craft wondrous item you can with preparation get access to most spells in the game. Although it will be an uphill battle compared to a cleric or wizard

[Quertus]

Wow. Sounds like an overwhelmingly negative response regarding the viability of a limited-list crafter.

Just to check: Mage of the Arcane Order is a no-go?

OK, then, any other ideas for a secondary schtick, should I royalty mess up as a caster?

[Sleven]

Wow. Sounds like an overwhelmingly negative response regarding the viability of a limited-list crafter.

Just to check: Mage of the Arcane Order is a no-go?

OK, then, any other ideas for a secondary schtick, should I royalty mess up as a caster?

Actually, I find that fixed list casters craft just fine if you want them to. The key is to never actually take the crafting feats yourself and use Planar Binding instead. Look up the Midguard Dwarf. It's an outsider you can call that can craft almost anything you want without actually needing to have the spells. If you don't want to use the Midguard Dwarf specifically because you're afraid of its curse feature, you can always bind a combination of creatures with the spells and feats you want/need for crafting. Best of all, they do all the crafting for you while you're out adventuring.

Mage of the Arcane Order is a powerful class, and can be worth taking if you want to use its mechanics. Just remember to take Arcane Preparation and prepare a few spells every now and then so that you can pay off your spellpool debt.

If you want to exceed your spells known limitations, one of the lower-cheese ways is taking the Apprentice (spellcaster) feat and a feat like Mother Cyst or one of the Bloodline feats. You then trade away the extra spells granted by said feats for any extra spells you actually want. Later on down the road you then retrain (or psychic reformation) away your Bloodline/Mother Cyst feat. You keep all of the extra spells you traded for via Apprentice and/or sorcerer spellcasting progression.

Let me know if the above sounds too cheesy. If so, I'll stop with the spell list expanding recommendations here and save myself the time.

[Quertus]

Actually, I find that fixed list casters craft just fine if you want them to. The key is to never actually take the crafting feats yourself and use Planar Binding instead. Look up the Midguard Dwarf. It's an outsider you can call that can craft almost anything you want without actually needing to have the spells. If you don't want to use the Midguard Dwarf specifically because you're afraid of its curse feature, you can always bind a combination of creatures with the spells and feats you want/need for crafting. Best of all, they do all the crafting for you while you're out adventuring.

Mage of the Arcane Order is a powerful class, and can be worth taking if you want to use its mechanics. Just remember to take Arcane Preparation and prepare a few spells every now and then so that you can pay off your spellpool debt.

If you want to exceed your spells known limitations, one of the lower-cheese ways is taking the Apprentice (spellcaster) feat and a feat like Mother Cyst or one of the Bloodline feats. You then trade away the extra spells granted by said feats for any extra spells you actually want. Later on down the road you then retrain (or psychic reformation) away your Bloodline/Mother Cyst feat. You keep all of the extra spells you traded for via Apprentice and/or sorcerer spellcasting progression.

Let me know if the above sounds too cheesy. If so, I'll stop with the spell list expanding recommendations here and save myself the time.

I don't care about cheese. Not at all. All I care about is a) how solidly RAW something is, and b) that the resultant character be roughly balanced with the party, and otherwise conducive to the overall fun of the game. Although... I could see some of my GMs house ruling against keeping spells once you've lost the prerequisites for the spells you've traded away. So maybe that specific cheese is out.

The dwarves look like they could craft for me, with the added bonus that they come with a built-in way to **** with me if I try to **** them over.

Would MotAO allow for crafting? Good point about Arcane Perpetration. This plan could start to tax my feats.

[Sleven]

Although... I could see some of my GMs house ruling against keeping spells once you've lost the prerequisites for the spells you've traded away. So maybe that specific cheese is out.

Hm? You never lose the prerequisites for the spells because there are none. The only spells you can lose by replacing the spell-granting feat(s) are the spells that came with the feat(s) in the first place, not the ones you traded them for.

If that's too cheesy, your DM is probably going to house rule against you using a wizard's spellbook (obtained via a single level dip or the Magical Training feat) to cast spells you "know" off of it with Arcane Preparation or Versatile Spellcaster. (Remember that wizards know any spells that they add to their spellbook, and can add spells to their spellbook that they aren't yet able to cast.)

Anything else I could recommend can be utilized to expand your spells known list indefinitely with spells (or powers) from any class list. So they're also probably out. In my opinion, none of this is any worse than Psychic Chirurgery. Hell, psions even get to jump through less hoops and can dodge XP costs just as well as anyone else.

If your DM lets you enter Mage of the Arcane Order with Arcane Preparation, that's probably the simplest solution.


The dwarves look like they could craft for me, with the added bonus that they come with a built-in way to **** with me if I try to **** them over.

I like Diplomacy.


Would MotAO allow for crafting? Good point about Arcane Perpetration. This plan could start to tax my feats.

Mage of the Arcane Order would work well for crafting. I just tend to dislike taking any crafting feats myself that aren't Craft Contingent Spell.

If Planar Binding is too much for your table, there are also a number of locations you can use (depending on setting) that allow you to temporarily gain the use of an item creation feat, but I can't remember their names off the top of my head. I want to say one of them is in Faerun?