Revised Fighter: The Battlemaster (WIP)

[PhantasyPen]

Here's my design document. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TLRLyYFeKFDGIyaiD0dr1xt7M66C-tFAzX85VLvjKb4/edit?usp=sharing) I'm basically trying to make a straight upgrade for the fighter, or at least what I like to think of as the fighter: a highly-skilled combatant known primarily for his mastery of arms and skill with combat maneuvers.

I'm a bit worried about front-loading this class, so if anyone has a suggestion for how I might shuffle things around a bit, I would be glad to hear it. Any ideas for the current empty levels would be appreciated as well.

EDIT: A big thing I'm looking for with this class is INT-synergy, so any abilities people can suggest towards that would be appreciated.

[XionUnborn01]

So it's a good chassis, and a good start but the golden rule when improving fighters is giving them relevance outside of combat. An old fighter remake I did have them an ability like bardic music and also gave them bonus languages based off the fluff of leading adverse groups of people.

I think giving new uses of gather information could be good for a fighter type, or even just an ability to base certain skills off strength like intimidate, gather info, maybe even give a bonus to bluff or something.

I think theres no reason that fighters can't be diplomats because a battle master would know that bit every war is won on the field, some are won with paper.

So work on some out of combat utility, give him a few more unique combat options, and you're looking good.

[Kyrell1978]

Second Skin at first level seem a bit too much. I don't mind the ability it just seems a bit much right off the bat. I might shuffle it up to the 5th or 6th level range and bump the other stuff down a level. The weapon mastery at first is a pretty good bonus without making him uber powerful.

[PhantasyPen]

So it's a good chassis, and a good start but the golden rule when improving fighters is giving them relevance outside of combat. An old fighter remake I did have them an ability like bardic music and also gave them bonus languages based off the fluff of leading adverse groups of people.

I think giving new uses of gather information could be good for a fighter type, or even just an ability to base certain skills off strength like intimidate, gather info, maybe even give a bonus to bluff or something.

I think theres no reason that fighters can't be diplomats because a battle master would know that bit every war is won on the field, some are won with paper.

So work on some out of combat utility, give him a few more unique combat options, and you're looking good.

I don't think I would give them a bardic music-esque ability, since that would lean less away from the "warrior" feel in my mind.

I would love to give them some utility, but I'm honestly not sure what would really be good for that. Expanding their skill list seemed the most reasonale step, but ultimately I think their class features are supposed to be made for what they're best at: combat, and I'm having a hard time envisioning ideas outside of that which don't infringe on other non-casters.

Something I'm toying with is maybe giving them some kind of benefit when commanding others, but I'm not sure what that should look like: better flanking or Aid Another bonuses? Flat morale bonuses? I'm really not too certain where to go there.



Second Skin at first level seem a bit too much. I don't mind the ability it just seems a bit much right off the bat. I might shuffle it up to the 5th or 6th level range and bump the other stuff down a level. The weapon mastery at first is a pretty good bonus without making him uber powerful.

Hmm, I could probably switch Second skin to a fifth-level ability, and make Weapon Mastery boost on odd levels rather than even.

[Kyrell1978]

Hmm, I could probably switch Second skin to a fifth-level ability, and make Weapon Mastery boost on odd levels rather than even.

I think 5th is pretty appropriate. That save bonus is pretty killer, but it puts it on par with divine grace at this level.

[XionUnborn01]

I don't think I would give them a bardic music-esque ability, since that would lean less away from the "warrior" feel in my mind.

Oh hey, you're right. I totally meant bardic knowledge. These guys travel all over and pick up stories and legends and hear all kinds of gossip so I think it fits.

Otherwise, the biggest reason I bring up utility is because a fighter right now can be pretty good at fighting, that's not their problem. It's that all they can do is hit stuff.

[Goaty14]

Oh hey, you're right. I totally meant bardic knowledge. These guys travel all over and pick up stories and legends and hear all kinds of gossip so I think it fits.

You're forgetting that this isn't unique to the fighter -- literally any other class, race, thing, etc can have 'traveled all over and pick up stories and legends and hear all kinds of gossip'. The bard gets it because the bard is a social class, has high CHA, etc, and you're saying the fighter gets it in the name of game balance? I'm not buying it.

I'm not against utility fighters, but at least don't cherry pick abilities from other classes that don't fit the fluff. IMO, maybe something that allows the Battlemaster to substitute a diplomacy (or maybe intimidate?) check with a combat maneuver success, with the result being <Your BaB>+<Opponent BaB>+<Number you beat your enemy by (can be negative)> or something like that.

[PhantasyPen]

So does anyone have a suggestion for abilities after 10th level? I'm pretty sure having the only thing the class gives after that point be just upgrades to your initial abilities is someone thing Monk and Barbarian are made fun of for.

[XionUnborn01]

You're forgetting that this isn't unique to the fighter -- literally any other class, race, thing, etc can have 'traveled all over and pick up stories and legends and hear all kinds of gossip'. The bard gets it because the bard is a social class, has high CHA, etc, and you're saying the fighter gets it in the name of game balance? I'm not buying it.

I'm not against utility fighters, but at least don't cherry pick abilities from other classes that don't fit the fluff. IMO, maybe something that allows the Battlemaster to substitute a diplomacy (or maybe intimidate?) check with a combat maneuver success, with the result being <Your BaB>+<Opponent BaB>+<Number you beat your enemy by (can be negative)> or something like that.

I never said it was in the name of game balance. I said I thought it was an interesting ability for a fighter to have. I know other classes travel around. I also didn't say it had to be identical to the bard ability.

I was trying to give suggestions for our of combat things because the last thing a fighter needs is a class that just makes it hit harder. I didn't see anyone jumping in with suggestions so I suggested a couple things I thought were flavorful.l I never said it was to balance the game.

[Kyrell1978]

I was trying to give suggestions for our of combat things because the last thing a fighter needs is a class that just makes it hit harder. I didn't see anyone jumping in with suggestions so I suggested a couple things I thought were flavorful.
To further that flavor (and perhaps avoid some of the backlash of balance tipping) you could make the ability have more specific requirements. Something like the following:

Camaraderie: In the battlemaster's time as a professional soldier he/she has traveled far and wide, learning the etiquette of both mercenary organizations and formal armies alike. 1st level The battlemaster gains a +2 circumstance bonus to gather info. checks when dealing with a member of a military organization, and receives a +2 to any Knowledge checks made to discern information about a specific type of foe. 6th level The battlemaster extends this bonus to all cha. based checks when dealing with a member of the military, and the Knowledge check bonus increases to +4.....etc.

[Goaty14]

and receives a +2 to any Knowledge checks made to discern information about a specific type of foe identify monsters.

Fixed it for you. Though I don't see how this is helping give it utility though.

[Kyrell1978]

Fixed it for you. Though I don't see how this is helping give it utility though.

Firstly, not all foes are monsters. Secondly, I was going for recognizing specific mercenary companies, heraldry, monster's weakness (as in old battle stories that tell one that fire works against trolls), etc. (which is why I used the phrasing "to discern information..."). Also, that was the secondary part of the suggestion. The primary was the buff to cha. based skills when dealing with "professional soldier" types, giving the class a bit of out of combat utility in an area that is based on a dump stat that fits the fluff and maintains balance. Sorry, if that wasn't clear.

[Goaty14]

Firstly, not all foes are monsters.

Yes they are. All PC races (and other creatures that one would deem "not monsters") have a statblock in the Monster Manual or otherwise in the "Monster" section of a splatbook. You're welcome to claim that level 1 human commoners aren't and can't possibly be monster, but by definition, they are.


specific mercenary companies, heraldry, monster's weakness (as in old battle stories that tell one that fire works against trolls), etc. (which is why I used the phrasing "to discern information...")

All of that is a VERY broad and ambiguous category... maybe you should fix that. (2/3 of that also isn't included in your original definition).


Also, that was the secondary part of the suggestion. The primary was the buff to cha. based skills when dealing with "professional soldier" types, giving the class a bit of out of combat utility in an area that is based on a dump stat that fits the fluff and maintains balance.

Uhhh, ok? Go out and playtest that and tell me if you can count the time(s) you've used it on more than one hand.

[Kyrell1978]

Yes they are. All PC races (and other creatures that one would deem "not monsters") have a statblock in the Monster Manual or otherwise in the "Monster" section of a splatbook. You're welcome to claim that level 1 human commoners aren't and can't possibly be monster, but by definition, they are.



All of that is a VERY broad and ambiguous category... maybe you should fix that. (2/3 of that also isn't included in your original definition).



Uhhh, ok? Go out and playtest that and tell me if you can count the time(s) you've used it on more than one hand.
You're silly. You are nitpicking homebrew that I made up in like five seconds to give the op a place to start if he wanted to avoid you complaining about balance issues. By all means continue.

[nonsi]

.
Your Battlemaster is undeniably impressive as far as numbers go, but numbers are not where the Fighter suffers.
The problem with fighters is that:
1. At high levels they keep playing with low level tools (feats).
2. As levels go up, they find it harder and harder to outrun their foes - both when they want to catch them and when they need to run away.
3. As levels go up, spellcasters have better tools of improving their action economy.
4. They can't do a lot vs. DR and incorporeal opponents without appropriate gear (which they themselves are incapable of crafting).

You did do a solid job with the skills, which gives them a lot more option out of combat.

Nice touch with Parry Spell. Along with Evasion an Mettle it gives them a nice defensive suite.

I'd change Focused Blow to standard action, to maintain some level of mobility when using it.
I'd also replace Fighting Style (again, more stats) with something that enhances their mobility, and give them something nice at level 18.

[PhantasyPen]

.
I'd change Focused Blow to standard action, to maintain some level of mobility when using it.
I'd also replace Fighting Style (again, more stats) with something that enhances their mobility, and give them something nice at level 18.

Focused Blow is a full-round action by intent. It's designed to represent a character taking a moment to focus, to center themself in order to strike the best location possible. Being highly mobile while using it would directly contradict what it's representing. Also making it a standard action means that you never have any reason to not use it, so I would then need to put a per-day limit on it or something.

If you've got any suggestions for what I can do with level 18, I really want to hear it, that dead level is fracking taunting me, and I can't think of anything to fill it with.

[nonsi]

Focused Blow is a full-round action by intent. It's designed to represent a character taking a moment to focus, to center themself in order to strike the best location possible. Being highly mobile while using it would directly contradict what it's representing. Also making it a standard action means that you never have any reason to not use it, so I would then need to put a per-day limit on it or something.


If you're fighting multiple opponents, it is quite common that in some of the cases you'd fell an opponent with a single strike and have remaining attacks to distribute to other opponents.
another scenario is when your fighting a dangerous opponent that's just about finished and you really need to nail a hit. In such cases, you'd prefer to elevate you chances of scoring a hit than nailing a single big strike.
The Fighter suffers badly from poor battlefield mobility. No reason to keep things that way.





If you've got any suggestions for what I can do with level 18, I really want to hear it, that dead level is fracking taunting me, and I can't think of anything to fill it with.
[/QUOTE]

You can check out my Warrior class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777407&postcount=11). AFAIK, it contains just about everything that a martially-inclined mundane class needs. Feel free to plunder ideas.
You could also check out an earlier Fighter remake (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267315) I made.
And here's another solid Fighter fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276280).

I believe that the above trio should provide all your current and future needs as far as Fighter fixes go.

[PhantasyPen]

If you're fighting multiple opponents, it is quite common that in some of the cases you'd fell an opponent with a single strike and have remaining attacks to distribute to other opponents.
another scenario is when your fighting a dangerous opponent that's just about finished and you really need to nail a hit. In such cases, you'd prefer to elevate you chances of scoring a hit than nailing a single big strike.
The Fighter suffers badly from poor battlefield mobility. No reason to keep things that way.


I'm still going to keep it as a full round action, because that again is an intentional move on my part, but reading this made me realize I did mess up a bit from my original intention, Focused Blow now functions by increasing your damage multiplier for the rest of the round the more attacks you give up.

[nonsi]

I'm still going to keep it as a full round action, because that again is an intentional move on my part, but reading this made me realize I did mess up a bit from my original intention, Focused Blow now functions by increasing your damage multiplier for the rest of the round the more attacks you give up.


Would you mind sharing your motivation on this one?

[PhantasyPen]

Would you mind sharing your motivation on this one?

I thought I did, but I suppose I can try to elaborate a little more.

Focused Blow isn't really meant to be just an instant thing, it's forcing thing attack to automatically crit. That kind of ability doesn't work well as a standard action, particularly when it's something like Focused Blow where the benefit lasts for the entire round (if you look at the document I've re-written it a bit). When you make an ability like this function as a standard action, you are dramatically increasing the number of times and scenarios where it can be used. (Spring Attack springs to mind, along with any similar ability)

Beyond the above, the situation that Focused Blow is designed to simulate, centering and focusing yourself to land a singular blow, is one that is represented by taking a full-round action. Allowing a character to use an ability while also jumping around or otherwise being extremely mobile is directly contradictory to the scenario that is intended to bring about this kind of action.

It's probably a mistake bringing up the Sunder rules (or I suppose I should call them the SIN-der rules) on this forum, but if you read about smashing an object, it says you're allowed to spend a full round action to line up the attack and automatically hit. This ability is designed to work until a similar principle.

[nonsi]

I thought I did, but I suppose I can try to elaborate a little more.

Focused Blow isn't really meant to be just an instant thing, it's forcing thing attack to automatically crit. That kind of ability doesn't work well as a standard action, particularly when it's something like Focused Blow where the benefit lasts for the entire round (if you look at the document I've re-written it a bit). When you make an ability like this function as a standard action, you are dramatically increasing the number of times and scenarios where it can be used. (Spring Attack springs to mind, along with any similar ability)

Beyond the above, the situation that Focused Blow is designed to simulate, centering and focusing yourself to land a singular blow, is one that is represented by taking a full-round action. Allowing a character to use an ability while also jumping around or otherwise being extremely mobile is directly contradictory to the scenario that is intended to bring about this kind of action.

It's probably a mistake bringing up the Sunder rules (or I suppose I should call them the SIN-der rules) on this forum, but if you read about smashing an object, it says you're allowed to spend a full round action to line up the attack and automatically hit. This ability is designed to work until a similar principle.

Got it :smallbiggrin:

Btw, I notice that Master Commander (level 18) has not description.

[PhantasyPen]

Got it :smallbiggrin:

Btw, I notice that Master Commander (level 18) has not description.

Haven't exactly figured out what I want out of it yet. I feel it should upgrade "Captain of the Guard" in some way, I'm just not sure how yet. I don't know if it should just increase the level of your followers or give you more followers that are still low level.

[nonsi]

Haven't exactly figured out what I want out of it yet. I feel it should upgrade "Captain of the Guard" in some way, I'm just not sure how yet. I don't know if it should just increase the level of your followers or give you more followers that are still low level.

I'm not a big fan of followers being a part of level progression. It's a campaign thing (or at best, a feat thing), not a class thing. What if you're stranded on a far off world... do they just pop up out of thin air?
As far as melees go, I'd rather they'd have superior mobility / action economy boost.

[XionUnborn01]

I thought I did, but I suppose I can try to elaborate a little more.

Focused Blow isn't really meant to be just an instant thing, it's forcing thing attack to automatically crit. That kind of ability doesn't work well as a standard action, particularly when it's something like Focused Blow where the benefit lasts for the entire round (if you look at the document I've re-written it a bit). When you make an ability like this function as a standard action, you are dramatically increasing the number of times and scenarios where it can be used. (Spring Attack springs to mind, along with any similar ability)

Beyond the above, the situation that Focused Blow is designed to simulate, centering and focusing yourself to land a singular blow, is one that is represented by taking a full-round action. Allowing a character to use an ability while also jumping around or otherwise being extremely mobile is directly contradictory to the scenario that is intended to bring about this kind of action.

It's probably a mistake bringing up the Sunder rules (or I suppose I should call them the SIN-der rules) on this forum, but if you read about smashing an object, it says you're allowed to spend a full round action to line up the attack and automatically hit. This ability is designed to work until a similar principle.

While I get the idea behind this, remember that the more limitations you put on using it, the less it gets used. You dont want this ability to become ignored by a majority of people. Theres a lot of depictions of someone 'centering' themselves while they charge at someone and lining up a shot.

I'm just trying to let you know that fluff doesn't need to restrict the crunch of the game.

[Kyrell1978]

What if you're stranded on a far off world... do they just pop up out of thin air?


I would pay a lot for followers that did that. They certainly deserve a raise.

[FlameUser64]

Vital Strike is also a single, powerful attack and takes a standard action to use. What's more, a single attack that's an automatic critical as a full-round action has to compete with the ability to make a full attack. As opposed to a single attack that's an automatic critical as a standard action, which gives you more mobility about the battlefield.
That said, imo automatic critical is a bad idea in any event. Why? Because scythes exist.

Also, a round lasts 6 seconds. There is no way you're spending 6 seconds lining up a single strike. Not without that 6 seconds being spent battering away at a foe's defences to make them vulnerable, anyway.

Edit: Nevermind I see you made it not an autocrit anymore.

[PhantasyPen]

Vital Strike

... For the sake of this thread not getting derailed, I politely request we all try to avoid bringing up the insane stunts Paizo has pulled in the past. I have.... numerous problems with their decisions as a company that I do not want to get into in this thread.