Stopping Power Word Kill

[kbob]

I'm playing and DMing in a session where we take turns DMing. One of the DMs thought it was a good idea to give one of the players an item of PWK... at will,... and he's only level 8. -.- Apart from breaking the item, which I've thought about doing but will most certainly cause an argument, what can I do (other than SR and undead) to make my BBEGs not fall the moment they get down to 100hp? I'd prefer feats or simple magic items that can give immunities to compulsions, enchantments, mind-affects, and/or death affects as any item will most surely go to the hands of the players. Any thoughts??

[Sleven]

This is why taking turns DMing the same campaign is generally a bad idea. You're better off doing shorter adventures where everything gets reset, because everyone has a different style of storytelling and crunch.

I mean, since you are the DM currently, why not just sunder it? If it's a big deal, you could always provide the person in question with another item that's cool but doesn't upset the game you're trying to create.

If you decide to let them keep it, there are plenty of 4th level and lower spells that provide immunity to it (stuff like Death Ward, Favor of the Martyr, and Polymorph come to mind). Talisman of Undying Fortitude (8000 gp) is another fairly inexpensive option for a "BBEG" to have. But if Power Word Kill is becoming a problem, an item like that might prove problematic for your table as well.

[tyckspoon]

Well, Death Ward will do it nicely, and it's right on schedule for being a 4th level spell effect; since this is also coming into the levels where other Save-or-Die effects start coming into play, it's not even something that is specifically for countering Power Word Kill - your BBEGs would also want it for protecting against Slay Living, Finger of Death, and various other nasty negative-energy based attacks and debuffs. From the Necessary Magic Items thread:


Cheap:
Talisman of Undying Fortitude (MIC). 8000GP, held. Swift action activation, gives you lots of undead immunities for 3 rounds, including those that are relevant here.
Death Ward armor enhancement (MIC). +1 armor enhancement. Once per day, ignore Death effects, energy drain and negative energy effects as an immediate action.
Crystal of Adaptation armor crystal (MIC). 3000GP, armor crystal. Protects from the negative levels bestowed by visiting major negative-dominant planes.
Standard/Deluxe:
Soulfire Armor Enhancement (BoED). +4 armor enhancement. Total immunity to Death effects, energy drain, and negative energy.
Choker of Life Protection (MIC). 14000GP, throat slot. The cheaper version of the Bone Ring (below), requires immediate action activation, and can't handle ability drain, but is significantly cheaper.
Bone Ring (MIC). 20000GP, ring slot. Protects against three negative levels (or points of ability drain) per day, but not against Death effects or general "negative energy" effects.
Ring of Negative Protection (MIC). 36000GP, ring slot. Immunity to negative levels and negative-dominant planar traits, but not Death effects or negative energy effects in general.
Absorbing Armor Enhancement (DotF). +3 armor enhancement. Weird enhancement that allows partial protection against ability drain and "level drain". I'd hold out for Soulfire, but this is cheaper.
Not recommended:
Phylactery of Virtue (MIC), Scarab of Protection (DMG), Cornucopia of the Needful (MIC), Runestaff of the Undead Slayer (MIC), Cloak of Blackflame (MoF), Bone Bracers of the Death Deity (MoF)

You can mix-and-match these as you want or as you desire to upgrade the level of protection a particular BBEG has. Note you need full on protection from Death Effects for this particular concern, not just negative energy damage. (I actually like the Scarab of Protection for this situation - it gives SR, which means some defense against the character's other spells that aren't PWK, and the defense is ablative, which means the characters can burn through it if they really really want to and it won't be a permanent item when they take it off the BBEG's eventual corpse.)

Getting immune to Compulsion or Mind-Affecting would also work, but that generally requires Mindblank or type-based immunities. Of course, since the Power Words are HP-based, it's also a fair defense to just have a ton of HP and make it difficult for them to be removed - if your BBEG has 300 HP (maybe psionic making use of Vigor to have a crapton of temp HP?) and the players have to chew through 200 of it before they can PWK execute him, that's still most of the fight they had to actually fight through.

[Goaty14]

A spellblade enhancement (PGTF, +6k GP) automatically reflects the spell (like Spell Turning does... Bet you'll get a good laugh when the player kills himself with the item) that the spellblade is attuned to. A ring of counterspells (IIRC?) does the same, but it might be more expensive and dangerous in the hands of the PCs.

So like, give any BBEGs you have a +1 Warning Parrying Spellblade (PWK) Shuriken which he wields in between his teeth... etc etc etc

[Falontani]

Isn't pwk a sonic spell? So... Silence?

[Crake]

A spellblade enhancement (PGTF, +6k GP) automatically reflects the spell (like Spell Turning does... Bet you'll get a good laugh when the player kills himself with the item) that the spellblade is attuned to. A ring of counterspells (IIRC?) does the same, but it might be more expensive and dangerous in the hands of the PCs.

So like, give any BBEGs you have a +1 Warning Parrying Spellblade (PWK) Shuriken which he wields in between his teeth... etc etc etc

Keep in mind spellblades are one use enchantments, and the item in question is usable at will. That being said, after the first person kills themselves trying to use it, i doubt anyone else in the party is gonna try.


Isn't pwk a sonic spell? So... Silence?

Power Word Kill is not infact a sonic spell, or language dependant, the target does not infact need to hear the word at all. The spell does have a verbal component though, but the item may not have a verbal activation, so it would depend.

[One Step Two]

I believe there's also the option of Caster minions with a readied action to counterspell using Dispell Magic, or if you want the party to fear using the Power Word: Kill item, is a Ring of spell Battle, and redirect it back at the party, doing that even once will make them think twice about using it so casually.

[Crichton]

I'm not super familiar with it, but what about ways to make the target creature not targettable, at least for a moment? Wings of Cover, or something like it?

[Elrak]

What about a continous custom item of protection against x?

That should give you a fairly cheap way of getting around compulsion effects which PWK is.

(Inspired by Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items))

[DeTess]

Have you considered talking to the group (OOC), and just explaining the problem the items is causing? Explain that either something needs to happen tot he item, or something needs to happen to the opposition. Offer to exchange the item for something that's also cool but less harmful.

[Calthropstu]

Steal it?

No, seriously have it stolen. As well as a bunch of other party items.

[Crake]

Steal it?

No, seriously have it stolen. As well as a bunch of other party items.

This would make a lot of sense in game. The party is only level 8, and the kinds of people who would be interested in an at-will PWK item would be much higher.

Honestly, did the previous DM even realise that an at-will PWK item is literally an epic item, coming in at a price tag of 3,060,000?

If you want to balance it somewhat, maybe make it a 1/week item or something? 1/week would make it only 8,743ish gp, much more in line for your players' level, leaving it a powerful, but practically 1/adventure item.

[Kayblis]

Power Word Kill is an Enchantment spell with the tags Compulsion, Death and Mind-Affecting. It's a 9th level spell, targeted, has no save, is SR:Yes and requires the target to have 100HP or less to work.

Ways to block it:
-There are many ways to be immune to death effects, as listed by other people, such as the Death Ward spell and the Death Ward enchantment (+1 equivalent on armor).
-Some races and templates are immune to mind-affecting effects, like Fey-touched and Necropolitan(any undead really).
-Some classes like Soulguard grant immunity to compulsions and mind-affecting effects.
-High SR races can block the effect most of the time, then take note on what just happened and act accordingly.
-The HP condition is a piece of info the players don't have access to - the BBEG doesn't have a health bar above his head.
-You need line of sight and line of effect to cast a targeted spell. Sight can be impaired with as little as a 1st level Cloud Fog spell, and nonmagical effects like natural fog or smoke bombs work too. Line of Effect can be blocked by effects like Wall of Force and such without impairing vision. Any solid wall blocks both.
-Sundering the item is a valid tactic if the party is dropping the BBEG's henchmen everywhere with it.

EDIT: Just remembering everyone that Protection from X doesn't stop Power Word Kill. It protects against charms and compulsions that grants control over the target's actions like Dominate Person, not instantaneous effects and death effects.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Heroes of Battle's banner of law item is my go-to for blocking compulsions. Allies within 30 feet of the standard bearer are protected by protection from chaos for 8k. Comes in all 4 alignment flavors.

[Crake]

Heroes of Battle's banner of law item is my go-to for blocking compulsions. Allies within 30 feet of the standard bearer are protected by protection from chaos for 8k. Comes in all 4 alignment flavors.

As Kayblis stated, protection from X doesn't protect you against power world kill.

Keep in mind, that creatures with high SR would need exceptionally high SR, as the power word kill item comes with at least a CL of 17. If the user also picked up arcane mastery then any SR of 27 or lower is worthless.

[noob]

A full sphere surrounding you can also stop power word kill.
So use auto repairing hamster balls for protecting yourself

[Cosi]

Steal it?

No, seriously have it stolen. As well as a bunch of other party items.

Yes, punish the entire party because one guy got an overpowered item.

Seriously, don't do this. At least, don't steal other stuff. If you really think the item is inappropriate, explain why out of character and retcon it away out of character.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Yes, punish the entire party because one guy got an overpowered item.

Seriously, don't do this. At least, don't steal other stuff. If you really think the item is inappropriate, explain why out of character and retcon it away out of character.

Why is the party having things stolen punishment?
If they haven't taken precautions against theft and run around flaunting gear that's literally worth a king's ransom it shouldn't be surprising that they'd attract thieves.
Of course you shouldn't overuse it and the party should certainly have a good chance to get their stuff back, but i've found that few things motivate players like having some of their stuff stolen.

So it's not a good way to deal with this case - that's a ****up that should be addressed ooc, really - but in general someone trying to steal from the PC's isn't punishment. Same applies to using sunder.

Players aren't immune to item destruction/loss, or at least they shouldn't be. The idea that it's "unfair" for a DM to target their gear is silly.
The important thing is to do it by the rules, not by DM fiat, so they can protect themselves against it if they think of it and put in the effort/money.

[Telonius]

Yeah, this is a pretty bad screwup. Just from the pricing, it's well into Epic range. An 8th-level character should in no way have access to this. I'd strongly advise talking to the other DM and figure out what on earth made him think this was a good idea. The screwup happened in-game, but it's mainly an out-of-character problem that should be handled out of character.

If you must find an in-character way to handle it, some ideas:

Since your guy basically has a Death Note, it would probably be appropriate for a Seer with Hypercognition to be on his tail shortly.
A high-level Lich thinks that owning an at-will PWK gizmo would be really neat, and decides to offer a very fair trade for it (give it to him and you get to keep breathing).
Over-use of the item draws the attention of Inevitables. Maruts are usually used to get people who are avoiding death; it's an unusual case, but altering fate to bring death before its time might also fall under their purview.
Local Temple of Wee Jas takes an interest. Turns out the thing is a major Jasite relic and they really want it back.

[umbergod]

Yes, punish the entire party because one guy got an overpowered item.

Seriously, don't do this. At least, don't steal other stuff. If you really think the item is inappropriate, explain why out of character and retcon it away out of character.

Viewpoint is very subjective here. You see a punishment, i see an impromptu hunt and find adventure to track down my stolen equipment

[Cosi]

Why is the party having things stolen punishment?

There's a difference between "thieves target the party" and "things get stolen". It's fine to have an encounter with people who steal your stuff. What's not fine is (as the post is implying) just declaring the stuff stolen.

[heavyfuel]

Players aren't immune to item destruction/loss, or at least they shouldn't be. The idea that it's "unfair" for a DM to target their gear is silly.

Surely you can't be serious!? Destroying gear is literally worst thing a DM can ever do, even worse than not tailoring encounters and treasures. How dare you say such a thing? don't think I need blue text here, do I?

[sleepyphoenixx]

don't think I need blue text here, do I?
You say that, but i've had players literally walk away from a game because i had an NPC thief try to pickpocket him. He didn't even succeed (and was only after some coins anyway), but the player threw an absolute fit.
So that attitude is definitely a thing with some people.

Personally i don't mind as long as it makes sense IC, isn't overused and isn't just the DM being a jerk. There's so many ways to protect your gear and even if you lose something there's always more treasure.
And as i said, few things get players as invested into a campaign as threatening their loot.:smallwink:

[umbergod]

You say that, but i've had players literally walk away from a game because i had an NPC thief try to pickpocket him. He didn't even succeed (and was only after some coins anyway), but the player threw an absolute fit.
So that attitude is definitely a thing with some people.

Personally i don't mind as long as it makes sense IC, isn't overused and isn't just the DM being a jerk. There's so many ways to protect your gear and even if you lose something there's always more treasure.
And as i said, few things get players as invested into a campaign as threatening their loot.:smallwink:

Sounds like some pretty childish players. If they cant handle a pickpocket attempt, what are they gonna do when you play monsters as intelligently as theyre supposed to be? (ie: dragons with 20+ int)

[heavyfuel]

You say that, but i've had players literally walk away from a game because i had an NPC thief try to pickpocket him. He didn't even succeed (and was only after some coins anyway), but the player threw an absolute fit.
So that attitude is definitely a thing with some people.

Hey, that's one way to get rid of a crybaby. Seriously, this is not the type of player I want in my games.


Sounds like some pretty childish players. If they cant handle a pickpocket attempt, what are they gonna do when you play monsters as intelligently as theyre supposed to be? (ie: dragons with 20+ int)

Dragons should definitely breathe weapon exactly once and then immediately land and go on melee. They should have no care for strategic advantages at all. again, I don't think I need blue text

[Goaty14]

Sounds like some pretty childish players. If they cant handle a pickpocket attempt, what are they gonna do when you play monsters as intelligently as theyre supposed to be? (ie: dragons with 20+ int)

Then they ascend the life of being murderhobo victims and cleverly disguise themselves as unwitting dirt farmers who need adventurers to do stuff for them. What's that, your INT 20+ dragons are willing to use backhanded strategies to try and kill the PCs? There is no killing the PCs, only monsters who aren't playing up to their INT scores.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sounds like some pretty childish players. If they cant handle a pickpocket attempt, what are they gonna do when you play monsters as intelligently as theyre supposed to be? (ie: dragons with 20+ int)
It was thankfully just the one. He didn't come back. The others (and me when i'm playing) are fine with it and enjoy challenging encounters.
But we're also all old enough and have been playing long enough to enjoy the challenge.

Kids these days just aren't used to difficulty in games anymore. :smalltongue: But that's a rant for a different time and place.

[Calthropstu]

There's a difference between "thieves target the party" and "things get stolen". It's fine to have an encounter with people who steal your stuff. What's not fine is (as the post is implying) just declaring the stuff stolen.

"A man appears. He has numerous wands on his belt and looks decked out in obviously expensive gear. Roll initiative."

X hold monsters and deep slumbers later:
He takes some of your items and teleports away saying "don't worry it will wear off shortly."

He sells off most of the equipment he steals but keeps the pwk item.
He's of a level where such an item would be apropriate so he isn't gonna be easy to track down.

The other items should be easy to trck down and get back. And this is exactly the kind of thing that would happen.

[Cosi]

"A man appears. He has numerous wands on his belt and looks decked out in obviously expensive gear. Roll initiative."

X hold monsters and deep slumbers later:
He takes some of your items and teleports away saying "don't worry it will wear off shortly."

He sells off most of the equipment he steals but keeps the pwk item.
He's of a level where such an item would be apropriate so he isn't gonna be easy to track down.

The other items should be easy to trck down and get back. And this is exactly the kind of thing that would happen.

So instead of saying out of game "this item is inappropriate for your level, I'm retconning it out", you're going to have a DM avatar NPC mug them? Why is that better?

[Falontani]

You say that, but i've had players literally walk away from a game because i had an NPC thief try to pickpocket him. He didn't even succeed (and was only after some coins anyway), but the player threw an absolute fit.
So that attitude is definitely a thing with some people.

Personally i don't mind as long as it makes sense IC, isn't overused and isn't just the DM being a jerk. There's so many ways to protect your gear and even if you lose something there's always more treasure.
And as i said, few things get players as invested into a campaign as threatening their loot.:smallwink:

in a campaign I was in, thief tried to steal from group. group caught thief. thief obviously down on luck and poor. paladin struck thief down. paladin fell. thief was stealing to support family. player visibly upset calmed down when it was explained why it happened, and that it made sense in game. paladin's quest for redemption involved helping wife and children of thief. lovely story arc

[Calthropstu]

So instead of saying out of game "this item is inappropriate for your level, I'm retconning it out", you're going to have a DM avatar NPC mug them? Why is that better?

For one, it gives them a quest to get their stuff back. For two, it gives them something to shoot for if they play past getting the bbeg. Track down super mugger and genk him.

[Cosi]

For one, it gives them a quest to get their stuff back. For two, it gives them something to shoot for if they play past getting the bbeg. Track down super mugger and genk him.

Creating plot hooks isn't actually an advantage. The natural state of adventurers is "on an adventure". Do you really think "you lose all your gear to DM fiat, now go on a quest to get it back" is going to be better than the replacement adventure? Ditto for BBEGs. Having "the guy the DM created to screw you over" as an adversary is unsatisfying, because his actions and goals have nothing to do with your own. He exists only because your DM wanted to show you who was boss. You're not fighting him because he wants to conquer your country, or because he killed your family, or because you long for the hand of the same prince, but because your DM decided you were too uppity.

Also, none of that justifies taking away your player's agency entirely. Things that happen in the game should not be started by DM fiat, operate by DM fiat, and have a result determined by DM fiat. The point of playing an RPG instead of reading a book is that you get to influence the evolution of the story. The hardest part of DMing is ensuring the game is functional while also ensuring that experience is maintained.

[Calthropstu]

Creating plot hooks isn't actually an advantage. The natural state of adventurers is "on an adventure". Do you really think "you lose all your gear to DM fiat, now go on a quest to get it back" is going to be better than the replacement adventure? Ditto for BBEGs. Having "the guy the DM created to screw you over" as an adversary is unsatisfying, because his actions and goals have nothing to do with your own. He exists only because your DM wanted to show you who was boss. You're not fighting him because he wants to conquer your country, or because he killed your family, or because you long for the hand of the same prince, but because your DM decided you were too uppity.

Also, none of that justifies taking away your player's agency entirely. Things that happen in the game should not be started by DM fiat, operate by DM fiat, and have a result determined by DM fiat. The point of playing an RPG instead of reading a book is that you get to influence the evolution of the story. The hardest part of DMing is ensuring the game is functional while also ensuring that experience is maintained.

Players have something worth millions of gold. The kind of item high end monsters and npcs would kill for. Having a high end npc come along and take it is appropriate.

And you need to reread my post. I said "go after this guy AFTER the bbeg." Actually, if it were me I'd have this guy as a rival and opponent to the bbeg collecting resources in his fight against him.

[Cosi]

Players have something worth millions of gold. The kind of item high end monsters and npcs would kill for. Having a high end npc come along and take it is appropriate.

That's a post facto justification. The presented problem is not "players have a really good item, how can this advance the plot". It's "players have an item that disrupts my plans, how do I deal with this".

Also, high level characters don't particularly need power word kill items, and probably have a fairly strong consensus against ganking low level people, because the end result of that is that everyone's low level minions, allies, and friends are dead. Hell, why wouldn't they just buy the item? If it's powerful enough to be useful, it's powerful enough to be a threat, even if only a small one.


And you need to reread my post. I said "go after this guy AFTER the bbeg." Actually, if it were me I'd have this guy as a rival and opponent to the bbeg collecting resources in his fight against him.

If he's also opposed to the BBEG, why wouldn't he recruit the players? They're going to get a lot more marginal benefit out of the item than he will, and if he's opposed to the BBEG, having some deniable assets disrupting their plans can only be an advantage.

It looks to me like your nominal justifications for doing this don't hold up to scrutiny. There are lots of reasonable response that high level characters might have to low level PCs with a powerful item. Why have you arrowed in on the one that allows you to take away the player's agency? If the item needs to be gone because you can't run a game that contains it, that is an out of game problem. Solve it out of game. If you solve it in game, show some respect for your players.

[Calthropstu]

That's a post facto justification. The presented problem is not "players have a really good item, how can this advance the plot". It's "players have an item that disrupts my plans, how do I deal with this".

Also, high level characters don't particularly need power word kill items, and probably have a fairly strong consensus against ganking low level people, because the end result of that is that everyone's low level minions, allies, and friends are dead. Hell, why wouldn't they just buy the item? If it's powerful enough to be useful, it's powerful enough to be a threat, even if only a small one.



If he's also opposed to the BBEG, why wouldn't he recruit the players? They're going to get a lot more marginal benefit out of the item than he will, and if he's opposed to the BBEG, having some deniable assets disrupting their plans can only be an advantage.

It looks to me like your nominal justifications for doing this don't hold up to scrutiny. There are lots of reasonable response that high level characters might have to low level PCs with a powerful item. Why have you arrowed in on the one that allows you to take away the player's agency? If the item needs to be gone because you can't run a game that contains it, that is an out of game problem. Solve it out of game. If you solve it in game, show some respect for your players.

Errr, item worth millions in hands of complete noobs.

Not a particularly useful item to me buuut I know an acquaintence who could afford it in the city of brass and I could seriously use the cash. I heard somethings stirring in the south and fear the worst. I'll just take it from them and maybe a couple other items that they could prolly do without, sell them and use that money to fortify my defenses and fund an expidition.

Seems pretty reasonable thinking to me.

[ColorBlindNinja]

What I would do is reveal that the item actually contains the essence of a powerful monster.

Every time the PCs use it to kill something, the entity consumes their life force and is one step closer to being revived.

This way, the players can't use their I Win Button too liberally or else the beast escapes.

EDIT:

Maybe include a plot hook where they have to find a way to destroy it?

[Cosi]

Errr, item worth millions in hands of complete noobs.

Not a particularly useful item to me buuut I know an acquaintence who could afford it in the city of brass and I could seriously use the cash. I heard somethings stirring in the south and fear the worst. I'll just take it from them and maybe a couple other items that they could prolly do without, sell them and use that money to fortify my defenses and fund an expidition.

Seems pretty reasonable thinking to me.

Tell me, how many times has a nuclear power used nuclear weapons to expropriate resources from other nations? Oh, literally never? Maybe it isn't reasonable to go around robbing noobs. Powerful groups and individuals trade for things they could steal all the time because they value norms against theft. I'm sure the people with the power word kill item would value some wishes which are cheaper than dirt for anyone doing business in the City of Brass. Plus, that leaves you with an ally instead of an enemy.

[Calthropstu]

What I would do is reveal that the item actually contains the essence of a powerful monster.

Every time the PCs use it to kill something, the entity consumes their life force and is one step closer to being revived.

This way, the players can't use their I Win Button too liberally or else the beast escapes.

EDIT:

Maybe include a plot hook where they have to find a way to destroy it?

Or they use it and out pops a demon lord who shouts "At last, after 10,000 years I'm free.It's time to conquer Earth."

[ColorBlindNinja]

Or they use it and out pops a demon lord who shouts "At last, after 10,000 years I'm free.It's time to conquer Earth."

No, that's screwing over the players without warning for absolutely no reason at all.

[Kayblis]

Also, high level characters don't particularly need power word kill items, and probably have a fairly strong consensus against ganking low level people, because the end result of that is that everyone's low level minions, allies, and friends are dead. Hell, why wouldn't they just buy the item? If it's powerful enough to be useful, it's powerful enough to be a threat, even if only a small one.

The world isn't a saturday morning cartoon. It's not like every adventuring group accepts "never kill weaker stuff" as a world-wide rule when they get relevant in a wider scheme of things. This "why doesn't everyone get along?" doesn't even make sense. Some nobody is running around calling attention to himself instakilling everything with his uber overpowered wand is a very good reason for any local power-seeking maniac or balance keeper to sweep in and take this free 3 million gold trinket.

Not everything has to revolve around not hurting the players' feelings. A world where nothing has consequence is just a bad videogame.

[Cosi]

No, that's screwing over the players without warning for absolutely no reason at all.

An astute observer might begin to notice a trend.


Not everything has to revolve around not hurting the players' feelings. A world where nothing has consequence is just a bad videogame.

"Another DM gave you an item I think is OP, so I'm taking your toys" isn't consequences. The player in question didn't decide to pick up the item knowing it might be dangerous. The "consequences" are an entirely post facto result of the DM deciding that the item needs to go, but not being willing to say so explicitly.

[Calthropstu]

No, that's screwing over the players without warning for absolutely no reason at all.

No reason? Lulz is a perfectly legitimate reason. At least in some groups.

That post, of course, is half kidding. The item needs to leave pc hands without blowing wbl out of the water. However the op chooses to do that, is entirely up to him. Having an npc steal it, turning it into an evil artifact plot hook, having a demon pop out of it, sundering it in battle, a god coming down from above and taking it... All are perfectly logical ways of doing it.

The long and short of it is the other gm screwed up and the op needs to fix it.

[noob]

Or they use it and out pops a demon lord who shouts "At last, after 10,000 years I'm free.It's time to build tons of cities for abusing settlement rules for multiplicating the amount of people by 10 an infinity of times in a row in one instant"
Fixed it for you.
It is the only way the material plane could have any value for demons which live in an infinite world and are infinitely numerous.

[ColorBlindNinja]

No reason? Lulz is a perfectly legitimate reason. At least in some groups.

Sure, if you suck at DMing.



That post, of course, is half kidding. The item needs to leave pc hands without blowing wbl out of the water.

Why?


Having an npc steal it, turning it into an evil artifact plot hook, having a demon pop out of it, sundering it in battle, a god coming down from above and taking it... All are perfectly logical ways of doing it.

And all are terrible solutions.


The long and short of it is the other gm screwed up and the op needs to fix it.

Ideally without screwing the players over.

[Cosi]

If the item needs to go because a DM made a mistake, that's an out of game problem, and everyone proposing an in-game solution is wrong.

If it is an in-game problem, then the solutions which give the players no agency or opportunity to interact with or react to events are wrong.

[Calthropstu]

Sure, if you suck at DMing.




Why?



And all are terrible solutions.



Ideally without screwing the players over.

We'll just have to disagree I suppose. I see those solutions as perfectly acceptable, and if the pcs get screwed so be it. It's not an enviable situation for the op. And I doubt the pc with the overpowered item will happily give it up. He will likely try to whine his way into getting something for it, and I for one wouldn't tolerate it.

If talking about it solves it, yay retcon away. But as soon as the whining starts, bam. Super mug time.

[heavyfuel]

Actual super valid in-game solution.

Put them to fight a bunch of relatively low CR. I do mean a bunch, like 15 or so. Preferably Large intelligent creatures like Goliaths (they're not large, but have powerful build)

As soon as the player realizes they all have less than 100 HP, he will start using the item every round.

Let him kill 3 or 5 of the NPCs.

The remaining NPCs realize he's using he item to kill everyone.

Have a few of them sacrifice themselves to try and destroy/sunder the item while the others runs for safety.

Even throw in a line such as "We have to stop him from killing everyone!!!" so the player has a chance to react to what's coming.

Next round charge in a sunder the item.

He'll have no one to blame but himself.



Sure, if you suck at DMing.

Ah yes, the classic "You don't play like I do therefore you suck".

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ah yes, the classic "You don't play like I do therefore you suck".

In what universe is screwing over the players okay?

[Calthropstu]

In what universe is screwing over the players okay?

All of them?

[heavyfuel]

In what universe is screwing over the players okay?

The one we live in.

Especially in a game that is, as Calthropstu said, for the "lulz".

[Calthropstu]

The one we live in.

Especially in a game that is, as Calthropstu said, for the "lulz".

Yeah, clearly he hasn't layed games such as paranoia. But there are gaming groups where "rocks fall everyone dies then you all come back as mutant chickens" is a thing.

Some such groups are toxic, othets hilarious. As for op's situation though, I doubt any solution that is proposed will work for everyone.

But he's the gm and has ultimate say. I suggest creativity and a way to make it into a plot but "It suddenly crumbles into dust and blows away into the wind" is perfectly ok here.

I know Cosi means well, but player agency takes a back seat in this instance.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The one we live in.

Yeah, no. Screwing over the PCs is poor DMing


Especially in a game that is, as Calthropstu said, for the "lulz".

That's no reason to screw over the players.

[Calthropstu]

Yeah, no. Screwing over the PCs is poor DMing



That's no reason to screw over the players.

Sure it is. Done right it can be hilarious. Such as sovereign glue poured into the scabbard of the holy avenger sword of the paladin, or the entire party wandering in circles in an illusionary maze, or the "cave" that is actually the mouth of a collosal creature who throws an illusion of a rock slide blocking the "pass" as it swallows the person who walked into his mouth.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Sure it is. Done right it can be hilarious.

For the players? Because if you keep up those antics, you won't have a group for long.

[noob]

anyway a self repairing hamster ball is still a good way to manage power word kill.(the adventurers might even try some interesting counter-play such as readying an action to use the item while the hamster ball is repairing itself)

[Calthropstu]

For the players? Because if you keep up those antics, you won't have a group for long.

Ummm...

The players did that to each other.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ummm...

The players did that to each other.

:smallconfused:


Such as sovereign glue poured into the scabbard of the holy avenger sword of the paladin,

This one, sure.


or the entire party wandering in circles in an illusionary maze,

So, who was responsible for the illusion if the entire party wandered in circles?


or the "cave" that is actually the mouth of a collosal creature who throws an illusion of a rock slide blocking the "pass" as it swallows the person who walked into his mouth.

And this one?

Plus, being an *** isn't any better when the players do it. That's still rude.

[Cosi]

I know Cosi means well, but player agency takes a back seat in this instance.

I mean, you can get the exact same mechanical effect without trampling on player agency. So the only reason to do it your way is if you're actually opposed to player agency. "The item is broken, I'm removing it, also this mysterious guy offers to hire you" achieves the exact same "no item, additional plot hook" of "DM avatar NPC steals it and you can't do anything, ha ha" except it shows some basic respect for your players.

[Calthropstu]

:smallconfused:



This one, sure.



So, who was responsible for the illusion if the entire party wandered in circles?



And this one?

Plus, being an *** isn't any better when the players do it. That's still rude.

Ok, the last two examples were gm, but that particular campaign was one prank after another,, most of which involved a rod of wonder.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ok, the last two examples were gm, but that particular campaign was one prank after another,, most of which involved a rod of wonder.

Okay, thank you for explaining.

[kbob]

Wow. Thank you guys for the ideas. I have a lot of things to ponder over now. I'll try talking to him out of game first and explain the situation. Hopefully that works. My problem isn't being able to challenge him with the item. My problem is doing so without making the challenge be too much for the other players (by killing them or making them seem obsolete). If he doesn't want to give it up, then I'm gonna have to ponder... about a lot of things. But y'all gave me some great ideas, as always, and I enjoyed reading the different view points on gaming. I sometimes wish I could just sit down with some of the minds on here and just talk about DM theory in general. Alas, I have only this forum, but it is a good one that I'm thankful for.

[Crake]

You say that, but i've had players literally walk away from a game because i had an NPC thief try to pickpocket him. He didn't even succeed (and was only after some coins anyway), but the player threw an absolute fit.
So that attitude is definitely a thing with some people.

Personally i don't mind as long as it makes sense IC, isn't overused and isn't just the DM being a jerk. There's so many ways to protect your gear and even if you lose something there's always more treasure.
And as i said, few things get players as invested into a campaign as threatening their loot.:smallwink:

I once threw a living disjunction at my players that destroyed literally every single one of the melee's magic items, they were around level 15, so it was a LOT.

He got really mad, even after I revealed that the loot, which was basically the leftover of the living disjunction, in the form of about 750k (triple the worth of the lost gear) worth of goo that functioned as rods of negation, that they sold. The player then proceeded to buy non-disjoinable things like fiendish grafts, which slowly turned him evil and he eventually alienated all the NPCs and had his character completely ostracised because of it.

Players can be weird sometimes.

[noob]

I once threw a living disjunction at my players that destroyed literally every single one of the melee's magic items, they were around level 15, so it was a LOT.

He got really mad, even after I revealed that the loot, which was basically the leftover of the living disjunction, in the form of about 750k (triple the worth of the lost gear) worth of goo that functioned as rods of negation, that they sold. The player then proceeded to buy non-disjoinable things like fiendish grafts, which slowly turned him evil and he eventually alienated all the NPCs and had his character completely ostracised because of it.

Players can be weird sometimes.
Why fiendish grafts?
There is other cool grafts such as grafted weapon.
Graft a weapon with all the cool enchantments ever that you want and due to it counting as both magical and non magical whenever it can be disjuncted is not clear.
You can instead ask a cl 100 item crafter(level 20 duegars for example can have a cl of 100 for item crafting) to add an enchant that allows the item to be used once for making a cl 100 acid splash.
Now the item have insane saves due to super high cl.(you just need to find a way to re-roll ones)
(theoretically you can use wish to make a sword that allows a single casting of a cl 1000 acid splash for a cost of approx 25000 gp(so fits in a single wish))

[Crake]

Why fiendish grafts?
There is other cool grafts such as grafted weapon.
Graft a weapon with all the cool enchantments ever that you want and due to it counting as both magical and non magical whenever it can be disjuncted is not clear.
You can instead ask a cl 100 item crafter(level 20 duegars for example can have a cl of 100 for item crafting) to add an enchant that allows the item to be used once for making a cl 100 acid splash.
Now the item have insane saves due to super high cl.(you just need to find a way to re-roll ones)
(theoretically you can use wish to make a sword that allows a single casting of a cl 1000 acid splash for a cost of approx 25000 gp(so fits in a single wish))

Because one of the players was playing a half fiend, and had a fiend buddy that could get fiendish grafts on the cheap

[jdizzlean]

I'm actually quite surprised no one has suggested this....


simply add 100 HP's to all your monsters/npc's. the group will still "kill" all of them, and you aren't punishing the guy for being given an item by another DM.

easy peasy.

[blackwindbears]

You say that, but i've had players literally walk away from a game because i had an NPC thief try to pickpocket him. He didn't even succeed (and was only after some coins anyway), but the player threw an absolute fit.
So that attitude is definitely a thing with some people.


Oh man, I always feel lucky that my players have been shining examples of reasonableness. Hell, I had one guy at 9th level fail a save to hold person after which I had a CR1 skeleton coup-de-gras him. I had a little grousing about hold person, but if you don't grouse a little when your character dies I'm just gonna assume you don't care.

[blackwindbears]

What I would do is reveal that the item actually contains the essence of a powerful monster.

Every time the PCs use it to kill something, the entity consumes their life force and is one step closer to being revived.

This way, the players can't use their I Win Button too liberally or else the beast escapes.

EDIT:

Maybe include a plot hook where they have to find a way to destroy it?

This is loads better than all of the other suggestions, and it's a head-desk that I didn't think of it first.

[ColorBlindNinja]

This is loads better than all of the other suggestions, and it's a head-desk that I didn't think of it first.

Thank you, I'm glad I was able to help you out.

[AnonymousPepper]

First off, the powerful entity retcon is bloody brilliant.

Second, though. Um. Where are y'all getting that 3 million figure from for cost?

1800 for command word activated times 9 for spell level times 17 for minimum caster level comes out to 275,400. If it's slotless, it goes up to 550,800, and is exactly halfway in between for a slot other than... I'd say probably other than a mask or maybe the hands. If it's use-activated, 2000 * 9 * 17 comes out to 306k, subject to 1.5x unusual slot or 2x slotless rate.

[Jack_Simth]

Second, though. Um. Where are y'all getting that 3 million figure from for cost?From Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm):

While not truly an artifact, the epic magic item is a creation of such power that it surpasses other magic items. Epic magic items are objects of great power and value. The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic item. In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item.

Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5.
Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5.
Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5.
Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus).
Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5.
Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6.
Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30.
Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.
Has a caster level above 20th.
Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.

An epic magic item that grants a bonus beyond those allowed for normal magic items has a higher market price than indicated by the formulas for non-epic items.

Epic magic items are not artifacts. They are not unique, though they are certainly very rare, and anyone with the proper item creation feats can build them. Even an epic magic item can never grant a dodge bonus, and the maximum inherent bonus that can be applied to an ability score is +5. An epic magic item cannot be created that uses or mimics an epic spell. A major artifact might be able to mimic such a spell, however. (Emphasis added)

And:

Use the guidelines for nonepic magic items to determine the market price of an epic magic item, with one addition: If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier.
The thing triggering the "epic" is "price", so you multiply that by 10, and that 275,400 you named becomes 2,754,000 gp. Then folks round to one significant figure, which results in 3 million.

[Telok]

What I would suggest is a couple few combats with confusion effects. Not back-to-back and maybe with a bit of warning (an infestation or nest of monsters with AoE or gaze confusion). Intersperse a couple swarms, plants, an invisible stalker, etc. Then maybe a caster with a scroll of Spell Turning, or two scrolls of Dominate Person.

[Kelb_Panthera]

From Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm):
(Emphasis added)

And:

The thing triggering the "epic" is "price", so you multiply that by 10, and that 275,400 you named becomes 2,754,000 gp. Then folks round to one significant figure, which results in 3 million.

You're looking at the wrong phrase in that bit.


Use the guidelines for nonepic magic items to determine the market price of an epic magic item, with one addition: If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier.

The base price isn't a bonus. That clause doesn't trigger. At best you've got grounds to require craft epic wondrous item.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The item is actually cursed. After it's used to kill (pick a number) of creatures, every subsequent time it's used the target is chosen randomly from all valid targets in range, including the caster. This can only be reversed if the total number of creatures killed by the item is reduced below the above number by returning enough of its previous victims to life.

[Jack_Simth]

You're looking at the wrong phrase in that bit.



The base price isn't a bonus. That clause doesn't trigger. At best you've got grounds to require craft epic wondrous item.
But caster level is sufficiently to get a specific exception? It's poorly-worded, as is a lot of the ELH. So... quite possibly. But regardless of RAW accuracy, that is where folks are getting the 3 million figure.

[sleepyphoenixx]

But caster level is sufficiently to get a specific exception? It's poorly-worded, as is a lot of the ELH. So... quite possibly. But regardless of RAW accuracy, that is where folks are getting the 3 million figure.

For what it's worth the Quarterstaff of Alacrity is priced at 462,600gp. The only thing actually epic about it is that it grants an epic feat (Infinite Deflection) and it doesn't get the x10 cost multiplier despite being way above the 200k threshold. At a quick glance the same applies to the Stormbrand greatsword (235,350gp) and some of the rings and wondrous items.
All the items that actually get the multiplier either have a +6 or higher enhancement bonus, an equivalent bonus of more than +10 or fulfill one of the other conditions for epic items besides price. Those that don't all lack the multiplier.

So from the examples we have we can conclude that price alone doesn't multiply the cost.

As for needing epic item creation feats, the Staff of Power costs 211,000gp and doesn't need one, and the costs for material/xp components aren't high enough to bring it under 200k without them (it's only Continual Flame that has one). So it seems price alone doesn't require that either.

[ericgrau]

This would make a lot of sense in game. The party is only level 8, and the kinds of people who would be interested in an at-will PWK item would be much higher.

Honestly, did the previous DM even realise that an at-will PWK item is literally an epic item, coming in at a price tag of 3,060,000?

If you want to balance it somewhat, maybe make it a 1/week item or something? 1/week would make it only 8,743ish gp, much more in line for your players' level, leaving it a powerful, but practically 1/adventure item.
275,400 gp actually. 306,000 if it's not command word activated. It's confusing but the epic x10 only applies in certain cases such as +6 weapons. It's still an epic item for being above 200,000 gp (and requires the epic feat to craft), but it doesn't get the x10 cost. EDIT: And it appears there are several posts above mine confirming this. Moving on to the main topic...

But this may lead to the simplest answer. Make enemies a bit tougher. Some will be immune to PWK and some not, as usual. Even the not immune ones can only be killed one at a time while strong foes might also be dropping PCs each round. Mention to the players how much this item sells for and let them think about how much strong gear that could buy the party.

Actually, since it's hard to find a buyer for an epic item, don't tell them yourself how much the item sells for. Have a high level NPC make them an offer early on. Perhaps he wants a way for his cohort to contribute to tough fights without getting into dangerous melee. Because otherwise the item is close to useless for a level 17+ character. In fact, maybe an epic character wants to buy it so his cohort or familiar or etc. can clear out the masses of weak rabble in a fight. Perhaps even pulling tricks like hiding and spamming it, especially if it doesn't require verbal activation (the 306,000 gp version).