Worldbuilding Impact of Cantrips

[GreatWyrmGold]

I like to look at the spells or other powers a world offers and think about the impact they could have on a setting. In the world of D&D Next, no spell will have a greater impact on the world than cantrips. After all, they're available to even 1st-level casters and can be cast as many times as you have six seconds and a reason to use them. So I decided to look and see what cantrips could have an impact on society.


Attack cantrips (basically everyone): Some of these have occasional peaceful uses (for instance, Firebolt is a great replacement for a tinderbox), but the biggest effect this would have would be its potential for and against criminals, assassins, etc. After all, attack cantrips are a perfect concealed weapon; short of handcuffing and gagging everyone in an area, it's pretty much impossible to keep people in e.g. the King's presence from having the tools needed to harm him. Instead, defense measures would focus on making sure the King can tank a surprise attack, ranging from sending the crown prince on adventures (with chaperones) to gathering protective magic items to incorporate into the royal raiment. Another option would be to stick royal guardsmen with their own concealed weapons (be they small swords, saps, or cantrips of their own) into the crowd, disguised as normal people. A couple of them could attack any rogue assassin who popped up while the royal chaplain cast cure wounds on the king before hustling him to safety.
Control Flames (Drd/Sor/Wiz): It's a decent party trick, and a good way to turn a little ember in the middle of a pile of wood into an actual fire.
Create Bonfire (Drd/Sor/War/Wiz): It's a great way to start fires, and can even be used as a fire in its own right in inhospitable areas (with constant concentration). This spell alone is a pretty compelling argument for bringing an apprentice pyromancer on any arctic expedition.
Druidcraft, Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy (Drd, Brd/Sor/War/Wiz, Clr): The exact effects vary by spell and by user, but most of the non-party-trick options are better-covered by other cantrips. Thaumaturgy definitely draws the short end of the stick here; it's unique, but mostly useful for freaking people out. (That said, I can definitely see clerics with proficiency in Profession (Actor) or whatever 5e has for that making great thespians.) Druidcraft is better, but still limited; the only things other cantrips don't do better are weather prediction and messing with plants. (Weather prediction is nice, though, and being able to make seed pods open could make otherwise unfarmable plants good sources of food. If good seeds with hard seed pods are around, of course.) Prestidigitation is, of course, far better than its divine knock-offs. Aside from illusions, fires, and other basics, you can clean, soil, warm, chill, or flavor stuff! Boring for an adventurer, but can you imagine how useful it would be for a noble or rich merchant? Employ a decently-leveled wizard, and their apprentice could replace half your staff!
Friends (Brd/Sor/War/Wiz): Given the relatively short duration, this would be most useful for conmen and the like. Which means, of course, that people who are likely targets of cons would seek magical protection against this sort of threat.
Guidance (Clr/Drd): I can see rich, important people hiring a divine caster specifically to cast this spell on them before they make any important decisions or do anything important.
Gust (Drd/Sor/Wiz): The spell description doesn't state if it can be used to push sailing ships, but it might. (It depends on if the spell is pushing back on the caster and the ground they stand on, or if it's just pushing back on the rest of the air.) If not, it's mostly useful for cleaning dry, loose refuse from the streets. Which would be useful in a big city—another potential part-time job for apprentice wizards in the big city!
Light (Brd/Clr/Sor/Wiz): Can you say "streetlights"? I can see wandering minstrels, apprentice wizards, etc who lived in a big city and wanted a little pocket change registering with some kind of public organization to cast cantrips on iron poles, building-sides, or whatever else the city marked for lighting purposes. Say, they cast the spells around sunset (some before and some after; it takes a while to walk through a city), and when all the lights are out, everyone's expected to be in bed. Maybe about half an hour before sunrise, the same or a second shift of casters rises to cast light on the streetlights again, to make sure the streets are brightly-lit and safe for early risers doing their morning errands. Dancing lights could also provide light in a pinch, but less well; its short duration and extra options (not to mention concentration requirement) mean it works better as a party trick.
Mage Hand (Brd/Sor/War/Wiz): This absolutely has some uses (say, a mage/shopkeep who uses it to stock or retrieve items from the top shelf, or an old wizard who doesn't want to climb the ladder to the top of his two-story bookcase anymore), but I see it more as something for a would-be housekeeper to put on their resume...below prestidigitation. That said, it certainly makes things easier for anyone who knows the spell.
Mending (Brd/Clr/Drd/Sor/Wiz): This single spell would gut any business reliant on repairs. People in the big city could take their broken tools and toys to the local church or wizarding college; if people in the country didn't have a local shrine or druidic/arcane hermit to ask for help, they could wait for a minstrel to come walking through town. They'd charge a bit more than a copper piece ("1 cantrip, 1 cp. Knowing how to cast it, 99 cp"), but they could afford to charge less than, say, a smith (who needs to maintain tools, buy coal, etc etc—not to mention spend hours on repairing major breaks). This would also mean that only the poorest areas would have much of anything broken, unless the local menders hiked their prices out of reach for 99% of their potential customers.
Message (Brd/Sor/Wiz): Sadly, this spell has a 120-ft range; it can't be used to send messages cross-country without having whole lines of message-ers sit around, 44 per mile under optimal conditions; it would probably be cheaper to send a messenger...and since the message only moves at 20 feet per second, aka less than 14 miles per hour, it might not be much slower. (Probably worse throughput, though.) Still, for a military base or a large city with tons of casters, it might be possible to use this to relay messages within settlements.
Minor Illusion (Brd/Sor/War/Wiz): Not many people can afford to have someone recast an illusion every minute, so it probably wouldn't be much use as a decorative option. (Maybe as a disguised guard who pretends he's only there to project the animated coat of arms on the castle gate?) Aside from that, it's another conman's tool and another thing for people to watch out for.
Mold Earth (Drd/Sor/Wiz): This would be useful for miners. Not to replace them, mind, but once they loosen dirt or knock stone off of walls, this spell would be good at emptying tunnels.
On/Off (Sor/War/Wiz): This sounds like a nightmare to any IT guy. Also, I need to check Unearthed Arcana more often...
Spare the Dying (Clr): This spell alone would greatly reduce battlefield casualties. A few low-level clerics in each side's camp, quickly casting it on any wounded brought back, would mean that very few enemies would be taken out of the war if they weren't captured and you didn't slit their throat. This particular implementation does, I admit, rely on unifying real-world biology (which allows people to be alive 30 seconds after being knocked unconscious but still die of their wounds later) and game mechanics. Going by RAW, this could still be useful; acolytes, or maybe specially-trained cleric/rangers or cleric/rogues, might dart around the battlefield, searching for half-dead allied soldiers to spare and drag to safety. This wouldn't have as extreme an effect (since D&D mechanics cause soldiers to die closer to the battlefield more often), but it would still be significant...especially since they'd be at 100% after a long rest. All of this would make medics a rather attractive target for the enemy. If you can stop your enemy from saving all the soldiers you just defeated, you might actually reduce the enemy's ability to fight. But if medics are off-limits...gods above, wars would take forever. Sure, not many people would die, but many would come to death's door time and time again, and that surely takes a toll on people. They just fight and withdraw, fight and withdraw, week after week, until some god-wizard or horrifying monstrosity or whatever comes along and annihilates an entire squadron single-handedly.


Well, that was a dark note to end on...that's all the interesting cantrip uses I could think of. Can anyone else think of some more?

[LudicSavant]

Druidcraft:
> The weather man is always accurate for the next 24 hours, surpassing even modern meteorology for short-term forecasting.
> Druids are highly valued for sea voyages.
> You instantly make a flower blossom, a seed pod open, or a leaf bud bloom. Obvious farming applications.

Prestidigitation:
> Bloody wars have been fought over flavors, and a prestidigitation-wielding chef can potentially replicate them all. How big a deal this is depends on whether the DM rules there are any limits to the kinds of flavors you can create. If there aren't, prestidigitation chefs are extremely highly sought after the world over.

[solidork]

The fact that many Tieflings get Thaumaturgy for free means they make great rock stars, due to the free voice amplification. I had an idea for a magical guitar that modifies the Thaumaturgy cantrip to function like an amp as well as a microphone.

[LudicSavant]

Shape Water:
So, you can freeze some water, but it magically unfreezes in an hour. However, for that hour, you have a cooling mechanism. You can use this cooling mechanism in combination with some nonmagical water and something like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakhch%C4%81l) to make large amounts of real, nonmagical ice. You can now provide cheap refrigeration technology.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Yakhchal_of_Yazd_province.jpg/250px-Yakhchal_of_Yazd_province.jpg

[Corpsecandle717]

My druid uses mold earth to plow fields. I think it could also have some interesting engineering applications as well. A temporary 10ft column can come in handy.

Using shape water to manage sewage/waste water has some pretty interesting public health applications.

Control Flame would be amazing for any sort of fire brigade.

[Monster Manuel]

A big part of the impact this would have on a world depends on who has access to cantrips. Are people with class levels common, or pretty rare? If you're going with just basic commoners out of the MM, can they take feats? What if they are variant humans? Or high elves?

Let's say that your world has variant humans, and that even the commoners get to take the feat. That feat could be magical prodigy, or spell sniper, so it stands to reason that just about anyone could have access to cantrips. Similar to High Elves, that get a cantrip as part of their racial abilities.

This explains why Elves are supposed to be such otherworldly craftsmen and artists; it's because all their craftsmen have access to Prestidigitation and Mending. It also goes a long way to explain why Humans are the dominant humanoid species; they have widespread access to basic magic.

This would be a very high-magic sort of world, and there could be a lot of impact (all the sorts of things that have been pointed out upthread)

If only classed characters have access to cantrips, and classed characters are rare, then the cantrips have very little impact on the wider world, if at all. If only exceptional people have them, you;re not getting your pots fixed by prestidigitation in your average village...

[N810]

Plant Growth: would revolutionize farming.

[Sigreid]

My druid uses mold earth to plow fields. I think it could also have some interesting engineering applications as well. A temporary 10ft column can come in handy.

Using shape water to manage sewage/waste water has some pretty interesting public health applications.

Control Flame would be amazing for any sort of fire brigade.

My wizard uses it to build little forts for the party to rest in. Really just a trench and a dirt embankment around the camp.

[DarkKnightJin]

My wizard uses it to build little forts for the party to rest in. Really just a trench and a dirt embankment around the camp.

My Fighter, if and when he gets Mold Earth, will likely use it to bury the bodies of his enemies. Or volunteering test subjects.
Whatever he wants to call them that day.

Shape Water would be useful in stirring potions.
Then again, so would Mage Hand.
Control Flames would be a boon for any firefighter to have.

Prestidigitation is just too dang good not to wanna know if you have the chance to learn it.
Your drinks are always the right temperature. Your food will never be cold. You can make your food taste like anything. You could eat the blandest but healthiest foods, and it could taste like your choice of junkfood to help it go down.

Minor Illusion would be useful to mock up a quick description of someone or something. Police could use that as a 3D mugshot if need be.

And I'm certain more creative minds than mine could think up more ways to use cantrips.

[Hellstick]

Shape Water:
So, you can freeze some water, but it magically unfreezes in an hour. However, for that hour, you have a cooling mechanism. You can use this cooling mechanism in combination with some nonmagical water and something like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakhch%C4%81l) to make large amounts of real, nonmagical ice. You can now provide cheap refrigeration technology.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Yakhchal_of_Yazd_province.jpg/250px-Yakhchal_of_Yazd_province.jpg

Or you could make an ice cube for your drink that wouldn’t melt and thus not dilute your drink! unless it takes you more than an hour to drink of course, but let’s be real :p

[Magzimum]

Vicious Mockery seems to be one cantrip that would be a terrifying thing to have out in the wild.
Even a non-physical fight, where people only argue verbally, could suddenly be lethal.

[Unoriginal]

The basic question will always be "how common are 1rst level casters or above in your world?"

Sure, high elves and others who have innate cantrips probably use them all day every day when it helps them, and it should have an impact on the world, but most beings don't have that kind of magic inherently.

The typical consensus is that people with magic powers are rare enough they'd probably gain more money casting a 1rst level spell once in a while than working a tedious job spamming cantrips.

[Ryokoichi]

Spare the Dying (Clr): This spell alone would greatly reduce battlefield casualties. A few low-level clerics in each side's camp, quickly casting it on any wounded brought back, would mean that very few enemies would be taken out of the war if they weren't captured and you didn't slit their throat. This particular implementation does, I admit, rely on unifying real-world biology (which allows people to be alive 30 seconds after being knocked unconscious but still die of their wounds later) and game mechanics. Going by RAW, this could still be useful; acolytes, or maybe specially-trained cleric/rangers or cleric/rogues, might dart around the battlefield, searching for half-dead allied soldiers to spare and drag to safety. This wouldn't have as extreme an effect (since D&D mechanics cause soldiers to die closer to the battlefield more often), but it would still be significant...especially since they'd be at 100% after a long rest. All of this would make medics a rather attractive target for the enemy. If you can stop your enemy from saving all the soldiers you just defeated, you might actually reduce the enemy's ability to fight. But if medics are off-limits...gods above, wars would take forever. Sure, not many people would die, but many would come to death's door time and time again, and that surely takes a toll on people. They just fight and withdraw, fight and withdraw, week after week, until some god-wizard or horrifying monstrosity or whatever comes along and annihilates an entire squadron single-handedly.
[/LIST]


There is a webcomic called Wrong Way to Use Healing Magic, which focuses on a medic squad like you described. After reading it, I took a mental note of making a medic squad with Spare Dyings and lots of carriying limit and movement. If your setting has a good medical improvement, war would take very long times to finish like how they have been doing in our world. However, a triage also makes good target for enemy rogue squad.

[Reticent]

In a world with cantrips, it does make you wonder why anyone who could learn spell casting would choose not to do so. Vastly improves the return on investment for training into level 1 of a spell casting class as compared to non-mystical vocations. Probably creates the need for an explanation as to why everyone in your setting hasn't studied magic.

[the_brazenburn]

Vicious Mockery seems to be one cantrip that would be a terrifying thing to have out in the wild.
Even a non-physical fight, where people only argue verbally, could suddenly be lethal.

I always picture Vicious Mockery as Monty Python's Funniest Joke in the World: something so funny/insulting/nasty that it gives those who hear it fits of apoplexy and possibly heart attacks.

Agreed that it would be scary. On the other hand, rap insult smackdowns would be a lot easier to decide: whoever's the last standing is the winner.

[Throne12]

So irl I'm a human (shocker I know) so my free feat would be magic Initiative. My cantrips would be mage hand cause I'm lazy and could always use another hand. Then presgtidigation and you know why. Then my first lv spell would be unseen servant.

[Sigreid]

In a world with cantrips, it does make you wonder why anyone who could learn spell casting would choose not to do so. Vastly improves the return on investment for training into level 1 of a spell casting class as compared to non-mystical vocations. Probably creates the need for an explanation as to why everyone in your setting hasn't studied magic.

People dont always pay attention to ROI. I mean we still have people who choose not to get a high school diplima.

[sambojin]

Mage hand: smithing, ore refining, chemistry. Basically anything hot or toxic can be picked up via the hand and not have it hurt the craftsman. Way handier than you'd think.

Druidcraft: knowing the weather, even small sections of it for 24hrs is amazingly useful for insurance (yes, there was medieval insurance for ship's cargoes, etc). It might almost be a requirement to have a druid aboard any ship, simply so a captain can be forewarned of any impending storms. If they want a policy that is.
Also damn handy for rural communities. Tornado today? No worries, we've prepared. Would essentially change people's chance of disaster survival massively. Will it still be raining all day? Nope? Good, the river will subside soon and the army can cross safely. Will there be a blizzard today? Yep, let's not take the mountain pass. Very, very useful. Extremely so. You would be surprised how many people die from localized weather events over any 24hr period, even today.

[KorvinStarmast]

The typical consensus is that people with magic powers are rare enough they'd probably gain more money casting a 1rst level spell once in a while than working a tedious job spamming cantrips. The foolish apprentice at the Temple of Elemental Evil has to spend his mornings using gust of wind to clean up the walkways, the yard, and some of the passageways. They call him Liam Leafblower. This punishment is due to him having timed perfectly a gust of wind to cause the skirts of the high priestess to billow up (a la Marylyn Monroe's famous picture) only to discover that she'd been going "commando" that day .. she was NOT in the least bit amused. :smallfurious:
At some point, his penance will be completed, but for the moment Leafblower keeps the grounds in order.


Message (Brd/Sor/Wiz): This spell has a 120-ft range.

A gambler can have a mole sit well behind another card player and message what he sees in the hand.
A merchant can have a hidden spy listen in on a "private" discussion during negotiations, and whisper to him the other side's position ...
Likewise various courtiers in royal households ...

this one can do some damage.

Mage Hand: make that second die turn one more face so that it does (or does not) come up snake eyes. :smallwink:

[leogobsin]

Mage Hand: make that second die turn one more face so that it does (or does not) come up snake eyes. :smallwink:

Mage Hand is visible unless you've got at least 3 levels in Rogue: the spell normally would be only slightly less obvious cheating than if you just moved the dice with your normal meat hand.

[PhoenixPhyre]

One thing to consider is that NPCs, even if they can take feat-equivalents (feats are only defined for PCs, NPCs don't use that system by default), don't necessarily get free choice. They'd get something fitting their background, training, inclinations, etc. So in a highly religious area you'd expect most people who can cast cantrips to cast from the cleric list. In a nature-focused region, mostly druid. Etc. And even then, most peasants are going to learn tricks (because that's what a cantrip is, a magical trick) that fits their lifestyle. Combat cantrips? Probably not. Mending is probably high on the list, as is druidcraft (predicting the weather for farmers is critical). For nobles, prestidigitation or mage hand makes a lot of sense.

Another thing is that we needn't (for worldbuilding purposes) suppose that the printed spells are all of the spells. They're merely those most suited for adventurers. I actually added a whole type of pseudo-ritual magic that only has small, temporary effects based on chanting. It only works while you're chanting and scales with the number of massed voices, doing things like making weeds easier to pull, keeping sheep from wandering, aiding with childbirth, etc.


Mage hand: smithing, ore refining, chemistry. Basically anything hot or toxic can be picked up via the hand and not have it hurt the craftsman. Way handier than you'd think.


As long as it weighs less than 10 pounds. It's also undefined what happens if the mage hand would take damage, so if something is burning hot, you (the DM) will have to decide how that works.

[LudicSavant]

Or you could make an ice cube for your drink that wouldn’t melt and thus not dilute your drink! unless it takes you more than an hour to drink of course, but let’s be real :p

That's a fun one.

To give you an idea of just how much work people used to do for ice, we used to actually go send treacherous voyages up north, cut out some ice by hand, and ship it all the way to the Caribbean in innovative, heavily insulated holds, where it was then sold off at great profit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigeration#Ice_harvesting). Far easier even in a rare magic setting to get a person to cast a few cantrips alongside some bronze age tech to get the ball rolling for a mass market refrigeration industry.


The basic question will always be "how common are 1rst level casters or above in your world?"

Sure, high elves and others who have innate cantrips probably use them all day every day when it helps them, and it should have an impact on the world, but most beings don't have that kind of magic inherently.

The typical consensus is that people with magic powers are rare enough they'd probably gain more money casting a 1rst level spell once in a while than working a tedious job spamming cantrips.

You seem to assume that cantrips have to be used "all day every day by lots of people" to make a difference. This is untrue. The ability to predict the weather with Druidcraft, for example, can be world-changing even if one person in an entire metropolis can cast it once per day (or less, even). And this in no way precludes them from having enough time to use up all their other spell slots.

[Arial Black]

Prestidigitation can be used to clean or dirty an object. An artist could use the cantrip as if it were a stick of charcoal, 'dirtying' an object in a specific way to 'draw' a picture.

This use was inspired by a real life event. When I was about 9 or 10 I was in the Cub Scouts. One day there was a guy with a lined 5 x 8 notebook and a Bic pen. I thought he might be a journalist or something, here to take notes.

He had me sit down, then he seemed to be scribbling something while looking back and forth between me and the notebook. After only about 30 seconds he showed me what he drew. It was an amazingly good portrait of me (I've never looked better in real life!), drawn on lined notebook paper with a blue ball-point pen in less than 30 seconds, easily good enough to be a mugshot.

I've had more than a few D&D PCs with this cantrip and some artistic talent use it to draw quick portraits to ask, "Have you seen this person?" and also use it to flatter someone by giving them a portrait that makes them look good, helping you get a free drink or break the ice or whatever you can imagine.

[Keravath]

The impact of cantrips would depend on how easy it is to become a 0 level caster. All the cantrips are learner spells .. ones that are so easy they can be repeated as often as desired.

However, does a wizard, cleric, Druid, bard or other caster have an innate gift allowing them to manipulate these forces or is it something that anyone with sufficient training and effort can learn? Is there a wide range of magical ability or can anyone who can learn a cantrip ultimately master higher level Magics?

These are world building questions that aren’t answered in any of the source material I have read.

Mending: if this just requires effort to learn then it would be a part of training in EVERY craft or trade or even household. There is probably no cantrip that would be more generally useful in everyday life. Fix horseshoes, wagon wheels, windows, walls, boards, clothes, armor, weapons, rope.

Prestidigitation. Massive impact. Every household would want someone to have it .. no more washing dishes, cleaning clothes, sweeping, dusting, street cleaning. Even the most modest food would look and taste like something the nobility would eat.

Friends. Everyone would be taught to wait at least a minute before making ANY decisions when first meeting someone .. no matter how strongly they might feel about it.

Spare the dying. Unfortunately, unless the novice clerics are out on the battlefield, waiting until the casualties are brought in will be too late since by that point they will either be stable or dead due to death saves (it takes as little as 6 seconds or at most 30 seconds before the situation is resolved and spare the dying is useless)

[xroads]

Light (Brd/Clr/Sor/Wiz): Can you say "streetlights"? I can see wandering minstrels, apprentice wizards, etc who lived in a big city and wanted a little pocket change registering with some kind of public organization to cast cantrips on iron poles, building-sides, or whatever else the city marked for lighting purposes. Say, they cast the spells around sunset (some before and some after; it takes a while to walk through a city), and when all the lights are out, everyone's expected to be in bed. Maybe about half an hour before sunrise, the same or a second shift of casters rises to cast light on the streetlights again, to make sure the streets are brightly-lit and safe for early risers doing their morning errands. Dancing lights could also provide light in a pinch, but less well; its short duration and extra options (not to mention concentration requirement) mean it works better as a party trick.



Interesting idea. Unfortunately a caster can only have one instance of the light spell active at any given time. So one person could light one pole for an hour, and that would be it. If they tried to light another pole, the previous light would go out.

But a creative shop vendor could probably find a way to make their store sign stand out with light (ex. neon lighting).

[Nifft]

Soldiers could still die of diseases even if their wounds were spare the dying'd to stop bleed-out.

No need for full-contact melee to be less horrifically dangerous; no need to remove the fear of injury which broke morale more often than actual injury.

[8wGremlin]

Imagine the effect on racekind if you started earlier in history.

Imagine cave-gnomes, how effective pit traps could be, or signaling over long distances with minor illusions

Or cave-high elves with their one wizards cantrip

Or cave-variant humans with their one feat
With Ritual caster or magic initiate

How would those societies develop

How would npc commoners be with their races added. I disagree that feats are only available to pc’s as you get to add race to commoner stats and variant human is a race.

Taking these cave-kin and seeing how they would develop would be a cool and interesting thought experiment or mini campaign

What are your thoughts.

[KorvinStarmast]

Imagine the effect on racekind if you started earlier in history.

Imagine cave-gnomes, how effective pit traps could be, or signaling over long distances with minor illusions

Or cave-high elves with their one wizards cantrip

Or cave-variant humans with their one feat
With Ritual caster or magic initiate

How would those societies develop

How would npc commoners be with their races added. I disagree that feats are only available to pc’s as you get to add race to commoner stats and variant human is a race.

Taking these cave-kin and seeing how they would develop would be a cool and interesting thought experiment or mini campaign

What are your thoughts. This is a great thought piece for a worldbuilding thread.

[Sigreid]

Depending on how you play it cantrips could be culturally integrated to families or clans. The ability to cast a particular cantrip could be taken as proof of identity.

[Nifft]

Depending on how you play it cantrips could be culturally integrated to families or clans. The ability to cast a particular cantrip could be taken as proof of identity.

Imagine a clan which could only identify each other by their ability to cast friends, which makes them all hostile to each other, all the time.

Tolstoy could write mountains about them.

[Vogie]

Depending on how you play it cantrips could be culturally integrated to families or clans. The ability to cast a particular cantrip could be taken as proof of identity.

Good grief, the Thaumaturgy clan will have the most dramatic fights.

And the Mage Hand clan will take affront to being asked if they need a hand

[Sigreid]

And the Mage Hand clan will take affront to being asked if they need a hand

It would almost be like having another person there when you close your eyes...

[8wGremlin]

I have used this to start my D&D world, it has had some cool knock on effects

http://www.clanwebsite.org/games/rpg/Dawn_of_Worlds_game_1_0Final.pdf

We adhered to the races in 5e, but it was fun.

and don't forget that elves an humans, can have various differing cantrips and spells.

Imagine the clan of Vhumans, with Magic initiate: Find Familiar, and two other wizard cantrips.
I think there was an old thread about this a while ago.

EDIT:
found these:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544824-Racial-wars

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?551439-Small-Unit-Help-build-a-small-unit

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556802-Village-militia-in-5e

[the_brazenburn]

It would almost be like having another person there when you close your eyes...

Please don't bring back the "100 gp for a Wizard..." thing back.

Please, I beg you not to. That was all the discussion of that topic I need in my life.

[odigity]

Please don't bring back the "100 gp for a Wizard..." thing back.

Please, I beg you not to. That was all the discussion of that topic I need in my life.

What's that?

[the_brazenburn]

What's that?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556070-300gp-per-day-as-a-1rst-level-wizard-is-it-possible&highlight=100+gp+wizard

[8wGremlin]

Think of cave vhuman

One type of vCaveman has magic initiate Druid.

Takes goodberry, guidance and mending.

Think how that one person would affect a tribe.

Or a one who takes find familiar, mold earth and shape water.

They can work togeather to create a shelter quickly and easily, scout an area, help create and fix things. As well as keep 10 people feed.

Pretty cool for two vhuman cave people

[Tetrasodium]

I like to look at the spells or other powers a world offers and think about the impact they could have on a setting. In the world of D&D Next, no spell will have a greater impact on the world than cantrips. After all, they're available to even 1st-level casters and can be cast as many times as you have six seconds and a reason to use them. So I decided to look and see what cantrips could have an impact on society.


Attack cantrips (basically everyone): Some of these have occasional peaceful uses (for instance, Firebolt is a great replacement for a tinderbox), but the biggest effect this would have would be its potential for and against criminals, assassins, etc. After all, attack cantrips are a perfect concealed weapon; short of handcuffing and gagging everyone in an area, it's pretty much impossible to keep people in e.g. the King's presence from having the tools needed to harm him. Instead, defense measures would focus on making sure the King can tank a surprise attack, ranging from sending the crown prince on adventures (with chaperones) to gathering protective magic items to incorporate into the royal raiment. Another option would be to stick royal guardsmen with their own concealed weapons (be they small swords, saps, or cantrips of their own) into the crowd, disguised as normal people. A couple of them could attack any rogue assassin who popped up while the royal chaplain cast cure wounds on the king before hustling him to safety.
Control Flames (Drd/Sor/Wiz): It's a decent party trick, and a good way to turn a little ember in the middle of a pile of wood into an actual fire.
Create Bonfire (Drd/Sor/War/Wiz): It's a great way to start fires, and can even be used as a fire in its own right in inhospitable areas (with constant concentration). This spell alone is a pretty compelling argument for bringing an apprentice pyromancer on any arctic expedition.
Druidcraft, Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy (Drd, Brd/Sor/War/Wiz, Clr): The exact effects vary by spell and by user, but most of the non-party-trick options are better-covered by other cantrips. Thaumaturgy definitely draws the short end of the stick here; it's unique, but mostly useful for freaking people out. (That said, I can definitely see clerics with proficiency in Profession (Actor) or whatever 5e has for that making great thespians.) Druidcraft is better, but still limited; the only things other cantrips don't do better are weather prediction and messing with plants. (Weather prediction is nice, though, and being able to make seed pods open could make otherwise unfarmable plants good sources of food. If good seeds with hard seed pods are around, of course.) Prestidigitation is, of course, far better than its divine knock-offs. Aside from illusions, fires, and other basics, you can clean, soil, warm, chill, or flavor stuff! Boring for an adventurer, but can you imagine how useful it would be for a noble or rich merchant? Employ a decently-leveled wizard, and their apprentice could replace half your staff!
Friends (Brd/Sor/War/Wiz): Given the relatively short duration, this would be most useful for conmen and the like. Which means, of course, that people who are likely targets of cons would seek magical protection against this sort of threat.
Guidance (Clr/Drd): I can see rich, important people hiring a divine caster specifically to cast this spell on them before they make any important decisions or do anything important.
Gust (Drd/Sor/Wiz): The spell description doesn't state if it can be used to push sailing ships, but it might. (It depends on if the spell is pushing back on the caster and the ground they stand on, or if it's just pushing back on the rest of the air.) If not, it's mostly useful for cleaning dry, loose refuse from the streets. Which would be useful in a big city—another potential part-time job for apprentice wizards in the big city!
Light (Brd/Clr/Sor/Wiz): Can you say "streetlights"? I can see wandering minstrels, apprentice wizards, etc who lived in a big city and wanted a little pocket change registering with some kind of public organization to cast cantrips on iron poles, building-sides, or whatever else the city marked for lighting purposes. Say, they cast the spells around sunset (some before and some after; it takes a while to walk through a city), and when all the lights are out, everyone's expected to be in bed. Maybe about half an hour before sunrise, the same or a second shift of casters rises to cast light on the streetlights again, to make sure the streets are brightly-lit and safe for early risers doing their morning errands. Dancing lights could also provide light in a pinch, but less well; its short duration and extra options (not to mention concentration requirement) mean it works better as a party trick.
Mage Hand (Brd/Sor/War/Wiz): This absolutely has some uses (say, a mage/shopkeep who uses it to stock or retrieve items from the top shelf, or an old wizard who doesn't want to climb the ladder to the top of his two-story bookcase anymore), but I see it more as something for a would-be housekeeper to put on their resume...below prestidigitation. That said, it certainly makes things easier for anyone who knows the spell.
Mending (Brd/Clr/Drd/Sor/Wiz): This single spell would gut any business reliant on repairs. People in the big city could take their broken tools and toys to the local church or wizarding college; if people in the country didn't have a local shrine or druidic/arcane hermit to ask for help, they could wait for a minstrel to come walking through town. They'd charge a bit more than a copper piece ("1 cantrip, 1 cp. Knowing how to cast it, 99 cp"), but they could afford to charge less than, say, a smith (who needs to maintain tools, buy coal, etc etc—not to mention spend hours on repairing major breaks). This would also mean that only the poorest areas would have much of anything broken, unless the local menders hiked their prices out of reach for 99% of their potential customers.
Message (Brd/Sor/Wiz): Sadly, this spell has a 120-ft range; it can't be used to send messages cross-country without having whole lines of message-ers sit around, 44 per mile under optimal conditions; it would probably be cheaper to send a messenger...and since the message only moves at 20 feet per second, aka less than 14 miles per hour, it might not be much slower. (Probably worse throughput, though.) Still, for a military base or a large city with tons of casters, it might be possible to use this to relay messages within settlements.
Minor Illusion (Brd/Sor/War/Wiz): Not many people can afford to have someone recast an illusion every minute, so it probably wouldn't be much use as a decorative option. (Maybe as a disguised guard who pretends he's only there to project the animated coat of arms on the castle gate?) Aside from that, it's another conman's tool and another thing for people to watch out for.
Mold Earth (Drd/Sor/Wiz): This would be useful for miners. Not to replace them, mind, but once they loosen dirt or knock stone off of walls, this spell would be good at emptying tunnels.
On/Off (Sor/War/Wiz): This sounds like a nightmare to any IT guy. Also, I need to check Unearthed Arcana more often...
Spare the Dying (Clr): This spell alone would greatly reduce battlefield casualties. A few low-level clerics in each side's camp, quickly casting it on any wounded brought back, would mean that very few enemies would be taken out of the war if they weren't captured and you didn't slit their throat. This particular implementation does, I admit, rely on unifying real-world biology (which allows people to be alive 30 seconds after being knocked unconscious but still die of their wounds later) and game mechanics. Going by RAW, this could still be useful; acolytes, or maybe specially-trained cleric/rangers or cleric/rogues, might dart around the battlefield, searching for half-dead allied soldiers to spare and drag to safety. This wouldn't have as extreme an effect (since D&D mechanics cause soldiers to die closer to the battlefield more often), but it would still be significant...especially since they'd be at 100% after a long rest. All of this would make medics a rather attractive target for the enemy. If you can stop your enemy from saving all the soldiers you just defeated, you might actually reduce the enemy's ability to fight. But if medics are off-limits...gods above, wars would take forever. Sure, not many people would die, but many would come to death's door time and time again, and that surely takes a toll on people. They just fight and withdraw, fight and withdraw, week after week, until some god-wizard or horrifying monstrosity or whatever comes along and annihilates an entire squadron single-handedly.


Well, that was a dark note to end on...that's all the interesting cantrip uses I could think of. Can anyone else think of some more?


It's an interesting topic, but the underlined bit is (imo) a smidge off. Adventurers are by & large exceptional individuals with exceptional skills. If you've ever played a level zero funnel in a game like DCC, you will know the night and day difference between a level 0 commoner & a level 1 adventurer. those cantrips might not be a single spell so much as a framework that an adventurer knows how to manipulate in desired ways. A chef might know a limited selection of prestidigitation that only works to flavor foods, a cleaner might know a limited version of it that can clean a shirt along with another version that can clean pants... so on & so forth. The averahe tradesperson has all kinds of things they need to know about their job beyond just how a given section odf a wider cantrip can be useful in that field. Keith Baker has a great article on it here (http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-magewrights/) that you might want to check out. That line of thought is also covered a bit in wayfinder's guide.

[odigity]

Imagine being a v.human commoner parent with access to Prestidigitation, Mending, and Sleep via the Magic Initiate feat. (You only need that Sleep spell once a day, after all.) That single-handedly eliminates about 50% of the work and stress.

Actually, that'd also be great for a babysitter or other child care worker. You hire them to watch over the little ones while you're at the theater, and you know you're coming back to a clean and quiet home.

[Oramac]

Attack cantrips (basically everyone): Some of these have occasional peaceful uses (for instance, Firebolt is a great replacement for a tinderbox), but the biggest effect this would have would be its potential for and against criminals, assassins, etc. After all, attack cantrips are a perfect concealed weapon; short of handcuffing and gagging everyone in an area, it's pretty much impossible to keep people in e.g. the King's presence from having the tools needed to harm him. Instead, defense measures would focus on making sure the King can tank a surprise attack, ranging from sending the crown prince on adventures (with chaperones) to gathering protective magic items to incorporate into the royal raiment. Another option would be to stick royal guardsmen with their own concealed weapons (be they small swords, saps, or cantrips of their own) into the crowd, disguised as normal people. A couple of them could attack any rogue assassin who popped up while the royal chaplain cast cure wounds on the king before hustling him to safety.

In any world that has firearms even remotely approaching modern technology, attack cantrips are hilariously outgunned (pun intended!). Even a novice with a firearm can put 2+ rounds accurately on target in the 6 second window it takes to cast one firebolt.

That having been said, for game balance purposes, matching firearms to cantrips would work quite well, and provide a nice counterbalance to the use of magic, both offensively and defensively.

[strangebloke]

Any worldbuilding you do on this is just going to come back to a lot of standard tropes.

Basically, high elves live in palacial residences with magic for everything, the local druid who helps with the harvest is loved by all, and assaulting a gnome village means acres and acres of illusory traps. Tieflings are seriously scary creatures.

For everyone else... how common is magic? Can anyone learn it? Do you need 'the gift'? A rich nobleman who has an acolyte following him around casting guidance all day is hilarious and flavorful, but isn't going to impact the mechanics of the game much.

[Arial Black]

In any world that has firearms even remotely approaching modern technology, attack cantrips are hilariously outgunned (pun intended!). Even a novice with a firearm can put 2+ rounds accurately on target in the 6 second window it takes to cast one firebolt.

From a world building perspective, if attack cantrips have been common since prehistory why would it occur to anyone to invent firearms?

Inventions are solutions to problems. If the problem is 'I want to attack an enemy at range' and everyone has firebolt then you already have your solution. Firearms don't get invented.

This is the 'dominos falling' thought process of world building.

[Nifft]

From a world building perspective, if attack cantrips have been common since prehistory why would it occur to anyone to invent firearms?

Distance, ease of use, not needing the individual to level up to increase the effect's power, centralized control of weapon production & ammo distribution gives more power to the governing body than distributing endlessly self-powered effects...

I mean, what would stop firearms from being invented? Other than deliberate suppression by the cantrip mafia, of course.

[strangebloke]

From a world building perspective, if attack cantrips have been common since prehistory why would it occur to anyone to invent firearms?

Inventions are solutions to problems. If the problem is 'I want to attack an enemy at range' and everyone has firebolt then you already have your solution. Firearms don't get invented.

This is the 'dominos falling' thought process of world building.

Rather the opposite, I imagine.

Why would you ever bother learning firebolt where for an equivalent time investment, you could learn mending, and for significantly less time investment, you could just learn how to throw a spear?

Attack cantrips are really only good for people who have way higher INT than DEX. There are some of those guys, sure, but most of the population is solidly in the 8-12 range and it doesn't matter much.

[Arial Black]

Distance, ease of use, not needing the individual to level up to increase the effect's power, centralized control of weapon production & ammo distribution gives more power to the governing body than distributing endlessly self-powered effects...

I mean, what would stop firearms from being invented? Other than deliberate suppression by the cantrip mafia, of course.

What would stop firearms being invented is that no-one would think of it. What they would think of is: how do we give firebolt a longer range? It's already easy to use (much easier than a matchlock firearm!).

If you want to make firebolt usable without the user needing to be high level, and if you want to centralise production and distribution, then you would think about Wands of Firebolt! You wouldn't think, "I wonder if saltpetre would help" beyond "Is saltpetre required to manufacture Wands of Firebolt?"

[Nifft]

What would stop firearms being invented is that no-one would think of it. What they would think of is: how do we give firebolt a longer range? It's already easy to use (much easier than a matchlock firearm!).

If you want to make firebolt usable without the user needing to be high level, and if you want to centralise production and distribution, then you would think about Wands of Firebolt! You wouldn't think, "I wonder if saltpetre would help" beyond "Is saltpetre required to manufacture Wands of Firebolt?" The evolution of firearms would probably go along the same lines as it did in our world:


Fireworks -> Siege Weapons -> Firearms

Firebolt is bad at breaking stone walls. Cannons are good at breaking stone walls. Once the idea of cannons happens, there's no turning back.

Fireworks don't compete with firebolt, of course, so there's nothing stopping the precursor. Saltpeter will be in-use as a thing long before a steel tube uses it to hurl a shot-put and break a castle.

[N810]

What about using firebolt in conjunction with a firearm, (magic in place of gunpowder)
use the but use a gun barrel to concentrate and extend the range of the spell,
possibly add a projectile in the barrel later in the evolution.

[Vogie]

What would stop firearms being invented is that no-one would think of it. What they would think of is: how do we give firebolt a longer range? It's already easy to use (much easier than a matchlock firearm!).

If you want to make firebolt usable without the user needing to be high level, and if you want to centralise production and distribution, then you would think about Wands of Firebolt! You wouldn't think, "I wonder if saltpetre would help" beyond "Is saltpetre required to manufacture Wands of Firebolt?"

Not necessarily. They could think:

How can we throw damage further?
How can we have ranged attacks that don't telegraph our location?
How can we have ranged attacks that don't set things on fire?
How can we have ranged attacks that can't be counterspelled?
How can people without firebolt fight people WITH firebolt?
How can we have ranged attacks that aren't stopped by an antimagic field?



Saltpeter would still likely be discovered as a mundane fertilizer, and someone may also notice how well it burns. The initial creation would likely be something that can be placed on fortifications then detonated via Fire Bolt, and we're right back into the original evolution.

If you are a master of Google-Fu, you can find the unaired pilot of the show 17th Precinct, which was a police procedural based in a world where magic has been real since time began, and there's this shadow group of "scientists" who are using some unknown technique to assassinate people in a way that the Diviners can't comprehend or monitor (it was a firearm)

[Tetrasodium]

The evolution of firearms would probably go along the same lines as it did in our world:


Fireworks -> Siege Weapons -> Firearms

Firebolt is bad at breaking stone walls. Cannons are good at breaking stone walls. Once the idea of cannons happens, there's no turning back.

Fireworks don't compete with firebolt, of course, so there's nothing stopping the precursor. Saltpeter will be in-use as a thing long before a steel tube uses it to hurl a shot-put and break a castle.

there are other spells that are good at all the things you note & mechanical chemistry based firearms are a different technological branch entirely.

If the question is "how can I destroy that far off stone wall from here?" the answer in a world with magic is not "progress in metallurgy to the point where you could build an early primitive cannon while inventing gunpowder", the answer is "I need to find out how I can pile on enough spells of the right sort to bring down that wall from here using the troops I have access to" & the result is a siege staff.

If you want to have a fireworks show.. the solution in a world with illusion magic is not "maybe I can use a dangerous & volatile unstable substance to help me put on a fireworks show" because the solution is a simple illusion magic with many many spells capable of duplicating a fireworks show even if your casters are standing in a tree/platfpom/tower in order to get enough height.. The problem with so many "gins totally fit d&d" arguments is that they ignore the fact that guns were dangerous unstable curiosities that were slow to reload& couldn't really be left loaded. the cantrips & spells of a setting technologically roughly equivalent to dark/middle/victorian/etc era should not be dismissed because they don't match up with the capabilities of forearms developed a hundred or more years after that point in our history. There are settings that should have spells developed for large scale warfare (ie eberron), it's just that things like siege staff details got cut for space from forge of war & the core books don't include any of those kinds of spells or items. That does not mean that they can't exist, just that they don't exist in forgotten realms, greyhawk, & the like

[Nifft]

That does not mean that they can't exist, just that they don't exist in forgotten realms, greyhawk, & the like

Trash talk FR all you like, but revolvers were a canonical thing in Greyhawk.

You're wrong in your assumptions and thus your conclusions.

[Oramac]

Not necessarily. They could think:

How can we throw damage further?
How can we have ranged attacks that don't telegraph our location?
How can we have ranged attacks that don't set things on fire?
How can we have ranged attacks that can't be counterspelled?
How can people without firebolt fight people WITH firebolt?
How can we have ranged attacks that aren't stopped by an antimagic field?



Also: "How can I make more than one ranged attack in 6 seconds?". Outside of muzzleloaders, even your most basic firearms can fire faster than one round per six seconds.

[LudicSavant]

That does not mean that they can't exist, just that they don't exist in forgotten realms, greyhawk, & the like

Firearms explicitly exist in the Forgotten Realms, according to Ed Greenwood himself. :vaarsuvius:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/05/24/do-firearms-such-as-muskets-blunderbusses-exist-in-the-forgotten-realms/

[PhoenixPhyre]

All of this talk of firearms, etc. relies on an assumption that things work at the physics level basically like they do on Earth, except magic occasionally changes things for a bit.

That's possible, but not guaranteed. Worlds can range from

Earth with magic stapled on

to

magic is physics and chemistry, nothing you know works the same way.

In my opinion, simply stapling magic onto earth physical laws does both magic and science a disservice. A coherent, magic-enabled world will have vastly different fundamentals even if the outward appearance is nearly the same.

[Oramac]

All of this talk of firearms, etc. relies on an assumption that things work at the physics level basically like they do on Earth, except magic occasionally changes things for a bit.

That's possible, but not guaranteed. Worlds can range from

Earth with magic stapled on

to

magic is physics and chemistry, nothing you know works the same way.

In my opinion, simply stapling magic onto earth physical laws does both magic and science a disservice. A coherent, magic-enabled world will have vastly different fundamentals even if the outward appearance is nearly the same.

This is true. It's also a LOT of work for a DM. Not saying they can't, won't, or shouldn't do it. Just that it's something a DM might not want to put their time into.

[8wGremlin]

As a note - the new Eberron has Rod as an arcane focus, that when used 2 handed extend the range of the spell by 50% extra.
also as a note they and wands can be made with different material each material giving a +1 to damage bonus.

There are a lot of you really wanting firearms in your fantasy world and are trying to justify their existence, that's cool sounds like a cool world.

But getting back to cave-kin and how the world would progress; start with the premise that the only magic that these people have access to it the inbuilt magic of their races at 1st level (gnome, elves, vhuman's with feats) and see where it takes you.

For instance. If we had just those 3 races vhuman's would have access to 1st level magic, where the other two races have cantrips.
The elves know how to make and use bows an swords
Forest Gnomes have access to minor illusion, and can have animal scouts (to a degree)
Rock Gnomes know about clockworks and how to start fire real easy.

Think how they would fight for resources, would they trade.
If commoners are the start of the world trading and writing down how to cast these spells would be the start of the wizarding type class.

or commoners with out magic start to call out to "other things" to give them power, for a small price... and thus the warlock is created.

After a time these warlocks start having kids and grand children and perhaps some of them suddenly gain more magical powers (this is how you get sorcerers)

take a simple premise and then extrapolate from there...