I think I finally figured out a LEGITIMATE, PLAYABLE, construct master! Proofread PLZ

[RoboEmperor]

Things that will destroy this build.
1. It's illegal because I overlooked or misinterpreted a rule.
2. It's too OP for normal play. Please tell me if it is!

Class: Artificer
Race: Doesn't Matter
Ability Score: Doesn't Matter
Feats: Doesn't matter, but it probably should be Magical Artisan + Legendary Artisan + Extraordinary Artisan + Exceptional Artisan.

Rejected Feat: Extract Demonic Essence. Too high chance of failure as I need to use a scroll's pathetic spell DC for planar binding's will save and fight the demon's FORT save to use the feat.

THE PLAN
1. Hit level 7
2. Accumulate 6,966xp
3. Scribe a Scroll of WISH from the Divine Crusader's spell list. Put 6,920xp into the item.
4. Use the caster level 7 scroll of wish to create a 12hd Hydra Effigy! Effigies cost 80xp per hit die, wish doubles that to 160xp per hd, 5,000 + 160 x 12 = 6,920xp. Scroll costs 9 x 9 = 81xp, which is reduced to 46xp via magical and legendary artisan. 46 + 6920 = 6,966xp

Ta da! I created a 12hd hydra effigy in 3 days (2 with exceptional artisan) and it cost me 1012.5gp (570gp with Magical and Extraordinary Artisan) and 6,966xp.

This effectively removes all of the gp and down time baggage of crafting constructs that prevents them from being used in normal campaigns.

Additional Plan 1
1. Have someone cast Nar Fiendbond on you
2. You now need 34,000xp to level up, which means you can now use 34,000xp to craft items!

or

Additional Plan 2
1. Create a golem of your choice
2. Use Craft Construct and Magic Item improving rules to advance its hd, saving you xp

or

Additional Plan 3
1. Create a golem of your choice
2. Use subsequent castings of wish to improve its hd.

So! Did I overlook something? Or is this too OP? Everything here is straight forward no-shenanigan RAW, even the CL 9 wish scrolls made by Divine Crusaders. Wish here is used as-is at FULL PRICE with no shenanigans or cost avoiders.

[noob]

There is a feat for making the save dcs of the items you craft depend on your casting characteristic and any other modifier you would have if you did cast the spell which might allow to reach the dcs needed for soul shenanigans.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There is a feat for making the save dcs of the items you craft depend on your casting characteristic and any other modifier you would have if you did cast the spell which might allow to reach the dcs needed for soul shenanigans.

Enhance Item from the ELH (it's non-epic).

[ExLibrisMortis]

On the one hand, Divine Crusader wishes are cheesy. On the other hand, you're not starting wish loops or anything stupid, so that's fair. You're paying 5960 XP to save 5000 + 12 000 gp and 27 days of crafting. At a conventional exchange rate of 1 XP per 5 GP, you're paying about 95 XP to save one day of crafting. I'd allow it (in an appropriate game), as long as you weren't bringing dozens of hydras to the table.


I should note that you need a minimum caster level of 12 to create a 12 HD hydra. That might bump up the cost of the scroll a bit, and you'd need a (temporary) CL boost to craft it at level 7.

[RoboEmperor]

On the one hand, Divine Crusader wishes are cheesy. On the other hand, you're not starting wish loops or anything stupid, so that's fair. You're paying 5960 XP to save 5000 + 12 000 gp and 27 days of crafting. At a conventional exchange rate of 1 XP per 5 GP, you're paying about 95 XP to save one day of crafting. I'd allow it (in an appropriate game), as long as you weren't bringing dozens of hydras to the table.

Each hydra is essentially 7,000xp, they got no defense against spells (especially DISINTEGRATE), and they don't scale well against enemies with DR so I think it's a terrible idea to make dozens of them. But they will completely outclass the party's mundane barbarian though.


I should note that you need a minimum caster level of 12 to create a 12 HD hydra. That might bump up the cost of the scroll a bit, and you'd need a (temporary) CL boost to craft it at level 7.

Wish's ability to create magic items is independent of its caster level or the item's required caster level. That's why you're paying 5,000xp up front.

[Troacctid]

I don't think you can wish for an effigy.

I mean obviously you can wish for anything, but effigies aren't magic items, so they're not one of the approved uses.

Also, I would not describe the Divine Crusader spell list as "non-shenanigan." There is no Divine Crusader spell list. Its spells are drawn from other lists.

[RoboEmperor]

On the one hand, Divine Crusader wishes are cheesy. On the other hand, you're not starting wish loops or anything stupid, so that's fair.

Just out of curiosity how would one create a loop off of Divine Crusader wishes?


There is a feat for making the save dcs of the items you craft depend on your casting characteristic and any other modifier you would have if you did cast the spell which might allow to reach the dcs needed for soul shenanigans.


Enhance Item from the ELH (it's non-epic).

I've been perusing every craftable construct in the MMs and yeah, it seems Extract Demonic Essence is mandatory as their XP cost to create, when doubled, requires level 20+ artificers.

So i will be grabbing Enhance Item, Demon Mastery, and Extract Demonic Essence.

Armanite (FCI) is a 9hd demon (since the wish is CL9 I only need a 9hd Demon) with a +7 will save (lowest I could find) so it shouldn't be too hard to beat it. 10 + 4 (Demonologist 4 spell level) + Int Mod.

On second thought, since the 12hd hydra effigy should carry me for a good while, I probably could just use a normal planar binding for 10 + 6 + int mod DC.

But man, constructs are freaking weak! like utter total weak sauce weak! After doing some more research and if there are no naysayers in this thread I'm a make a new thread asking for construct suggestions because wow, it's rare to see a construct beat 50dmg a round.


I don't think you can wish for an effigy.

I mean obviously you can wish for anything, but effigies aren't magic items, so they're not one of the approved uses.

Craft Construct is an Item Creation feat. So I think there's little doubt that constructs are magic items. Worst Case scenario I'll just wish for a Golem (if I can find one that doesn't suck b****)


Also, I would not describe the Divine Crusader spell list as "non-shenanigan." There is no Divine Crusader spell list. Its spells are drawn from other lists.

This does not matter. Unlike Wyrm Wizard or Recaster, Artificers don't have "from any class's spell list" or anything similar like that. Artificers are independent of "spell lists".

Simply put, if a magic item is possible (like a CL 9 wish scroll scribed by a level 16 divine crusader with the scribe scroll feat), then the Artificer can create it no problem.

If Divine Crusaders are too cheesy, how about Sublime Chords? They have CL 2 4th level spells, and if you progress up to 9th it's CL 11 so I can create a CL11 scroll of wish at level 9.

[magicalmagicman]

tsk tsk tsk

Let me explain to you how to actually play what you stumbled across.

At level 7, whenever you attain enough xp to level up, immediately pay 7,046xp to craft a scroll of wish with 7,000xp.

Do this 15 times.

Once you banked 105,000xp across fifteen scrolls of wish, destroy them all and add their xp to your craft reserve.

Then craft a scroll of wish with 105,000xp and create an Iron Colossus.

[noob]

tsk tsk tsk

Let me explain to you how to actually play what you stumbled across.

At level 7, whenever you attain enough xp to level up, immediately pay 7,046xp to craft a scroll of wish with 7,000xp.

Do this 15 times.

Once you banked 105,000xp across fifteen scrolls of wish, destroy them all and add their xp to your craft reserve.

Then craft a scroll of wish with 105,000xp and create an Iron Colossus.

There is a rule allowing to avoid levelling up if you plan to make a magical item (it is the only case where you are not obligated to gain a level when you reach the needed xp) so you do not even need that shenanigan for crafting an iron colossus.
You can also spam distilated joy if you want to save some time(but that would be considered as cheeze).

[magicalmagicman]

There is a rule allowing to avoid levelling up if you plan to make a magical item (it is the only case where you are not obligated to gain a level when you reach the needed xp) so you do not even need that shenanigan for crafting an iron colossus.
You can also spam distilated joy if you want to save some time(but that would be considered as cheeze).

That's what I meant. If you ever hit more than 8,000xp you can immediately expend 7,046xp to not level up and craft a scroll of wish. Staying at level 8 while your party is level 13 will result in exponential xp gain which in turn is immediately spent on more scrolls of wish.

Also there's level loss. At level 12, have a controlled method of level drain to be level 11 with 5,500xp. Craft a scroll of Wish and a scroll of Restoration. Use the scroll of restoration to get back to level 12 only to lose a level again. Repeat this 21 times which will cost about 30,000gp and you will have your Iron Colossus.

[RoboEmperor]

I feel conflicted.

On one hand I am happy that there is a strategy that allows me to compete with TO builds. My biggest worry was that this build was not viable for epic levels.

On the other hand, I'm trying to sell this as a non-OP legitimate and playable build and all this TO stuff of Iron Colossi way, way, waaaay before epic is, well, lol.

I'm not worried though. The level drain loop is the broken thing not this build. As for banking craft reserve..., it's no different than not abusing it on purpose like not abusing planar binding on purpose.

But the banking craft reserve thing is... very nice. I don't have to grab Extract Demonic Essence anymore so thanks for that.

I'm a just wait until Troacctid comes back online and we hash the legality of this build out before making an official build thread.

In any case I do appreciate the level drain loop. It essentially means that if my construct dies and I'm out of money, I have a way out instead of retiring my character.

I'm loving this build more and more. It's the first character I've conceived that is completely independent of class levels. At level 12 he can compete with epic characters so I can spend xp on constructs without a worry in the world because no matter how many times my construct dies, I can bounce back. Just need down time and starting money. But yeah this is a TO loop. By using one wish scroll to create 25,000gp of crafting materials every now and then this truly is an infinite loop.

edit: Summon Undead V has wight for the level loss.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Wish's ability to create magic items is independent of its caster level or the item's required caster level. That's why you're paying 5,000xp up front.
I'm not sure; it doesn't say that it does. Then again, it doesn't qualify the "create a magic item" clause, so that's a good sign. I'll take your word for it, you've discussed item crafting more than I have :smalltongue:.

You create a wish loop with any wish by wishing for a candle of invocation. In this case you could obviously craft one yourself; I just mentioned it to point out that what you're doing isn't nearly as powerful as some of the things you could get up to, and using high-OP tricks to make suboptimal strategies powerful (without breaking the game) is pretty fair, in my view.

[Goaty14]

Looks good! Except by RAW, do Divine Crusaders get a spell list? They do get a single domain and can cast from that, and probably even make scrolls from that domain, but there is no actual "spell list", right? If that's true, then the artificer can't draw from the supposed "spell list" at the lower CL that you suggest.

Granted, the whole setup can still work out at a later level when you can afford to pump out CL 17 wish scrolls, but at this early of a level? Perhaps not.

[RoboEmperor]

Looks good! Except by RAW, do Divine Crusaders get a spell list? They do get a single domain and can cast from that, and probably even make scrolls from that domain, but there is no actual "spell list", right? If that's true, then the artificer can't draw from the supposed "spell list" at the lower CL that you suggest.

Divine Crusaders don't have a "spell list".

However I don't see why that's a problem.


Item Creation (Ex): An artificer can create a magic item even if he does not have access to the spells that are prerequisites for the item. The artificer must make a successful Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item. Thus, to make a 1st-level wand of magic missile, an artificer would need a Use Magic Device check result of 21 or higher. To create a bottle of air (caster level 7th), he would need a check result of 27 or higher to emulate the water breathing prerequisite.

The artificer must make a successful check for each prerequisite for each item he makes. If he fails a check, he can try again each day until the item is complete (see Creating Magic Items, page 282 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). If he comes to the end of the crafting time and he has still not successfully emulated one of the powers, he can make one final check—his last-ditch effort, even if he has already made a check that day. If that check also fails, then the creation process fails and the time, money, and XP expended to craft the item are lost.

For purposes of meeting item prerequisites, an artificer's effective caster level equals his artificer level +2. If the item duplicates a spell effect, however, it uses the artificer's actual level as its caster level. Costs are always determined using the item's minimum caster level or the artificer's actual level (if it is higher). Thus, a 3rd-level artificer can make a scroll of fireball, since the minimum caster level for fireball is 5th. He pays the normal cost for making such a scroll with a caster level of 5th: 5 X 3 X 12.5 = 187 gp and 5 sp, plus 15 XP. But the scroll's actual caster level is only 3rd, and it produces a weak fireball that deals only 3d6 points of damage.

At no point does it say "spell list". Only "spells that are prerequisites for the item". The prerequisite of a Divine Crusader scribed scroll is CL9 and the Wish Spell.

[Jack_Simth]

tsk tsk tsk

Let me explain to you how to actually play what you stumbled across.

At level 7, whenever you attain enough xp to level up, immediately pay 7,046xp to craft a scroll of wish with 7,000xp.

Do this 15 times.

Once you banked 105,000xp across fifteen scrolls of wish, destroy them all and add their xp to your craft reserve.

Then craft a scroll of wish with 105,000xp and create an Iron Colossus.
There's more efficient containers for XP than scrolls of Wish.

A scroll of Wish is 9th level - even with the domain-based caster level reduction, you're still looking at 9*9*25 gp = 2,025 gp market price for the base ninth level scroll to store that blob of XP - three days of crafting.

Permanency, on the other hand, can also hold an arbitrary amount of XP, and (if you use the same CL reduction method, but this time using the Time domain), you're looking at 5*5*25 gp = 625 gp base components for storing that blob of XP (up to 4,500 xp in components): One day of crafting.

[magicalmagicman]

There's more efficient containers for XP than scrolls of Wish.

A scroll of Wish is 9th level - even with the domain-based caster level reduction, you're still looking at 9*9*25 gp = 2,025 gp market price for the base ninth level scroll to store that blob of XP - three days of crafting.

Permanency, on the other hand, can also hold an arbitrary amount of XP, and (if you use the same CL reduction method, but this time using the Time domain), you're looking at 5*5*25 gp = 625 gp base components for storing that blob of XP (up to 4,500 xp in components): One day of crafting.

I was going by the worst possible interpretation that in order to put 4,500xp into it, you need to hit the CL for it, which is 14 and unlike all other spells, I don't think the Artificer's +2 to CL for item crafting lets you hit 14 earlier.

[Jack_Simth]

I was going by the worst possible interpretation that in order to put 4,500xp into it, you need to hit the CL for it, which is 14 and unlike all other spells, I don't think the Artificer's +2 to CL for item crafting lets you hit 14 earlier.
Here's a fun question for you:
Where does Permanency link caster level to XP costs?

Also:
The Scroll of Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) listed in the SRD has a market price of 10,125 gp, and has a note: "Includes experience point cost up to 2,000 XP." I'm assuming there's a slight typo in there, as that price is too low. 2,000 xp would market at 10,000 gp, and a 5th level spell at caster level 9 would market at 1,125 gp, so it should be 11,125 gp. Regardless: The spells that use exactly 2,000 gp are caster level 12.

[magicalmagicman]

Here's a fun question for you:
Where does Permanency link caster level to XP costs?

Also:
The Scroll of Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) listed in the SRD has a market price of 10,125 gp, and has a note: "Includes experience point cost up to 2,000 XP." I'm assuming there's a slight typo in there, as that price is too low. 2,000 xp would market at 10,000 gp, and a 5th level spell at caster level 9 would market at 1,125 gp, so it should be 11,125 gp. Regardless: The spells that use exactly 2,000 gp are caster level 12.

That's why I said worst possible interpretation. I'm sure you're right.

[Jack_Simth]

That's why I said worst possible interpretation. I'm sure you're right.

Ah.

Well, of note if you want to start storing XP earlier:
Beget Bogun (Spell Compendium) is Druid-1, and has a 25 xp component cost. A scroll of it costs 12.5 gp and 26 xp to make (2.08 gp per stored XP). A wand of it costs 375 gp and 1,280 xp to make (3.4133.... gp per stored XP). Both before crafting discounts from feats and such.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thrallherd. Draw awakened golems to you for high level minions, and warforged and animated objects for lower level ones. Armies of constructs, with a collective 24 hour "crafting" time!

[Endarire]

@Maxi: You effectively made the Lord of Blades as a deity, or at least xplained how he could be interpreted as one.

[thethird]

I am glad that you are finding more exploits for the divine crusader list, always fun :smallsmile:

What I have always found interesting (if you go with XP is a river), is that you can store XP in scrolls and then get it back using retain essence (as crafting XP). The difference in XP gained starts at lvl 4, where you can easily craft alter fortune scrolls (lvl 3 spell, with a 200XP cost). An Item familiar is useful for increasing the bonus XP you would get.

[Goaty14]

At no point does it say "spell list". Only "spells that are prerequisites for the item". The prerequisite of a Divine Crusader scribed scroll is CL9 and the Wish Spell.

I... guess that's right? It just really breaks my logic because if somebody asks "What spell list are you getting CL 9 Wish from?", a computer would turn that into an infinite-search loop and subsequently break, because there is no spell list that it is from. There might be some sort of RAW/RAI argument in my logic here, but oh well. :smallsmile:

[noob]

I wonder: which domain have wish?
Well there is always the possibility to take the feat that allows to prepare spells from any class in any other class(was intended for spontaneous spellcaster and not intended for that use) then be a 17 wizard/9 divine crusader/sorcerer who then prepare wish in his crusader slot.

[RoboEmperor]

I... guess that's right? It just really breaks my logic because if somebody asks "What spell list are you getting CL 9 Wish from?", a computer would turn that into an infinite-search loop and subsequently break, because there is no spell list that it is from. There might be some sort of RAW/RAI argument in my logic here, but oh well. :smallsmile:

Just think of it like a wondrous item. A wondrous item with a prerequisite CL of 9 and a spell prerequisite of Wish. Then what I'm saying will make sense.

Another class with a lower CL wish is Sublime Chord. They can get it as low as CL 11 but Sublime Chords don't have their own spell list. They use the sor/wiz spell list. Try and make sense of that with your logic :P


I wonder: which domain have wish?
Well there is always the possibility to take the feat that allows to prepare spells from any class in any other class(was intended for spontaneous spellcaster and not intended for that use) then be a 17 wizard/9 divine crusader/sorcerer who then prepare wish in his crusader slot.

I have no idea what you're saying here, but Wish is from the Envy Domain. That's right, it's a CORE domain.

[noob]

I have no idea what you're saying here, but Wish is from the Envy Domain. That's right, it's a CORE domain.

Forgot about that domain.
I only said a solution to have any spell you want as a divine crusader spell not that there was a problem if there was no domain with it.

[RoboEmperor]

I... guess that's right? It just really breaks my logic because if somebody asks "What spell list are you getting CL 9 Wish from?", a computer would turn that into an infinite-search loop and subsequently break, because there is no spell list that it is from. There might be some sort of RAW/RAI argument in my logic here, but oh well. :smallsmile:

Actually the better example is, let's say an artificer is using cooperative item crafting rules to scribe a scroll for the divine crusader. And then the Artificer uses UMD to completely replace the divine crusader. Still no spell list required.

[unseenmage]

...

I'm loving this build more and more. It's the first character I've conceived that is completely independent of class levels. At level 12 he can compete with epic characters so I can spend xp on constructs without a worry in the world because no matter how many times my construct dies, I can bounce back. Just need down time and starting money. But yeah this is a TO loop. By using one wish scroll to create 25,000gp of crafting materials every now and then this truly is an infinite loop.

...
FYI, Arms and Equipment Guide has a sidebar about putting feats in Magic Items. 10,000gp per feat plus 5,000gp per prerequisite.

If Constructs count as Magic Items then this let's us put feats in them...

The build could theoretically even be independent of the artificer at this rate.

[RoboEmperor]

FYI, Arms and Equipment Guide has a sidebar about putting feats in Magic Items. 10,000gp per feat plus 5,000gp per prerequisite.

If Constructs count as Magic Items then this let's us put feats in them...

The build could theoretically even be independent of the artificer at this rate.

Artificer is literally the only class that has early access to wish. Even crafting a candle of invocation requires CL 17 so I don't think you can ever be independent of the artificer unless you don't mind waiting until level 17.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Don't forget to craft a few rods of construct control (A&EG). For less than 70k, they would allow you to assume control of even epic level golems without issue, so long as their original creator isn't there in person.

[RoboEmperor]

Thrallherd. Draw awakened golems to you for high level minions, and warforged and animated objects for lower level ones. Armies of constructs, with a collective 24 hour "crafting" time!

If I wanted to use existing creatures I'd stuck with planar binding because it's a lot more consistent. But that is a nice thought, I'll have to read thrallherd sometime.


Don't forget to craft a few rods of construct control (A&EG). For less than 70k, they would allow you to assume control of even epic level golems without issue, so long as their original creator isn't there in person.

Yeah that item is the bane of my existence. Been plaguing me ever since 4 years ago. I'll need to craft one just to counter it. I hate AE&G because of this, but I love AE&G because of Phylactery of Change.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If I wanted to use existing creatures I'd stuck with planar binding because it's a lot more consistent. But that is a nice thought, I'll have to read thrallherd sometime.And as you gain levels, make sure to add some class levels to those awakened golems. Get some serious versatility for your pet juggernauts.


Yeah that item is the bane of my existence. Been plaguing me ever since 4 years ago. I'll need to craft one just to counter it. I hate AE&G because of this, but I love AE&G because of Phylactery of Change.So many fun and interesting things squirreled away in that book. Now, if only I had an annotated list of all the stuff in it so I can actually find it...

[Troacctid]

Actually the better example is, let's say an artificer is using cooperative item crafting rules to scribe a scroll for the divine crusader. And then the Artificer uses UMD to completely replace the divine crusader. Still no spell list required.
This does also presume that Divine Crusaders exist in the setting. Eberron is notoriously stingy with high-level NPCs. I'd be surprised if there were a single 16th level Divine Crusader in the entire city of Sharn.


FYI, Arms and Equipment Guide has a sidebar about putting feats in Magic Items. 10,000gp per feat plus 5,000gp per prerequisite.

If Constructs count as Magic Items then this let's us put feats in them...

The build could theoretically even be independent of the artificer at this rate.
Where are you guys getting that constructs count as magic items? I'm not aware of any such rule. Some magic items can count as constructs (i.e. intelligent items), but constructs generally do not count as items. They're creatures.

[RoboEmperor]

Where are you guys getting that constructs count as magic items? I'm not aware of any such rule. Some magic items can count as constructs (i.e. intelligent items), but constructs generally do not count as items. They're creatures.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm

The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item (caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, cost to create) are given in summary form at the end of each golem’s description.

Direct RAW saying Golems are magic items.

Now, other nongolem constructs who also can be created...
1. Use an item creation feat, like craft construct.
2. have caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, just like magic items.

which lets us conclude that these constructs are also magic items like golems, and also has hd advancement cost identical to golems (5000gp per hd, 50,000gp for each size increase) unless otherwise stated (like effigies and elder eidolons).

So any construct that can be created is a magic item, and constructs that can't (like the Umbral Blot) are not magic items.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Where are you guys getting that constructs count as magic items? I'm not aware of any such rule. Some magic items can count as constructs (i.e. intelligent items), but constructs generally do not count as items. They're creatures.

Probably from this line from the entry on golem construction.

The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item (caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, cost to create) are given in summary form at the end of each golem’s description.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Note that intelligent items also count as creatures, as they have Wis and Cha scores.

[Troacctid]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm


Direct RAW saying Golems are magic items.

Now, other nongolem constructs who also can be created...
1. Use an item creation feat, like craft construct.
2. have caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, just like magic items.

which lets us conclude that these constructs are also magic items like golems, and also has hd advancement cost identical to golems (5000gp per hd, 50,000gp for each size increase) unless otherwise stated (like effigies and elder eidolons).

So any construct that can be created is a magic item, and constructs that can't (like the Umbral Blot) are not magic items.

But in context:

The cost to create given for each golem includes the cost of the physical body and all the materials and spell components that are consumed or become a permanent part of the golem. Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item. However, a golem’s body includes costly material components that may require some extra preparation.
Golems are imbued with magic as part of the creation process, but they're not magic items, they're just created as if they were. A completed golem is not even considered inherently magical at all.

[RoboEmperor]

But in context:

Golems are imbued with magic as part of the creation process, but they're not magic items, they're just created as if they were. A completed golem is not even considered inherently magical at all.

You're missing what me and sleepyphoenixx quoted. "The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item" so golems are both creature and magic item.

[thethird]

Item Creation Feats
An item creation feat lets a spellcaster create a magic item of a certain type.


Craft Construct [Item Creation]

Using item creation feats a spellcaster creates magic items, craft construct is an item creation feat.


Craft Construct [Item Creation]
Prerequisites
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item.

Benefit
A creature with this feat can create any construct whose prerequisites it meets. Enchanting a construct takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its market price. To enchant a construct, a spellcaster must spend 1/25 the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price (see individual construct monster entries for details).

A creature with this feat can repair constructs that have taken damage. In one day of work, the creature can repair up to 20 points of damage by expending 50 gp per point of damage repaired.

A newly created construct has average hit points for its Hit Dice.

The specific item creation feat does not override the general clause for item creations, it doesn't say: create a construct as if it was a magic item.

[Troacctid]

You're missing what me and sleepyphoenixx quoted. "The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item" so golems are both creature and magic item.
It says that because they're created as magic items. Hence, the only magic item characteristics it has are creation costs. The final product is explicitly nonmagical—it can't be dispelled, it doesn't turn off in a dead magic zone, etc.


Using item creation feats a spellcaster creates magic items, craft construct is an item creation feat.



The specific item creation feat does not override the general clause for item creations, it doesn't say: create a construct as if it was a magic item.
Item creation feats can allow you to craft things other than magic items if that's what the feat says. Craft Construct allows you to craft constructs, which are creatures, not items. Other examples of item creation feats that allow you to craft things other than magic items include Craft Contingent Spell and Graft Flesh.

[thethird]

Item creation feats can allow you to craft things other than magic items if that's what the feat says. Craft Construct allows you to craft constructs, which are creatures, not items. Other examples of item creation feats that allow you to craft things other than magic items include Craft Contingent Spell and Graft Flesh.

Graft flesh is not an ítem creation feat, could you clarify where does it say that contingent spells are not magic items?

[RoboEmperor]

It says that because they're created as magic items. Hence, the only magic item characteristics it has are creation costs. The final product is explicitly nonmagical—it can't be dispelled, it doesn't turn off in a dead magic zone, etc.

RAW directly says golems are magic items. It can't get more direct than that.

Even if we go by your interpretation that they're "created as magic items" and stop being magic items after their creation, how does this stop wish from creating them?

If you're arguing that you can't give it feats via the AE&G rules there are other arguments for that, mainly that's it's guidelines not RAW and on the same level of homebrew as custom magic items.

Since you mentioned AMFs


A general guideline for other kinds of feats is that they cost 10,000 gp, plus another 5,000 gp to 10,000 gp per prerequisite.


A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might.

So they are magic items that are self-supporting instead of relying on magic in the air or whatever. In any case their function in AMFs and dead magic zone does not disqualify them as magic items.


Item creation feats can allow you to craft things other than magic items if that's what the feat says. Craft Construct allows you to craft constructs, which are creatures, not items. Other examples of item creation feats that allow you to craft things other than magic items include Craft Contingent Spell and Graft Flesh.

Except those feats make magic items as well. You're claiming the existence of a magic item creation feat that creates 0 magic items.

[Troacctid]

Graft flesh is not an ítem creation feat, could you clarify where does it say that contingent spells are not magic items?
I'm AFB. Whichever graft feat, I don't remember them all.


RAW directly says golems are magic items. It can't get more direct than that.
Doesn't look like it's directly saying that to me.


Even if we go by your interpretation that they're "created as magic items" and stop being magic items after their creation, how does this stop wish from creating them?
Because it says it creates items, not creatures. Golems being creatures rather than items places them outside the scope of what it can create. For a golem, you'd need something like Polymorph Any Object.


Except those feats make magic items as well. You're claiming the existence of a magic item creation feat that creates 0 magic items.
What magic items can you make with graft feats?

[Troacctid]

That's contradicted by the passage earlier saying they're SIMILAR to magic items. So which one wins?

[RoboEmperor]

What magic items can you make with graft feats?

FF does say grafts are not magic items. So I guess you're right. So I'll drop this argument.


Doesn't look like it's directly saying that to me.


Because it says it creates items, not creatures. Golems being creatures rather than items places them outside the scope of what it can create. For a golem, you'd need something like Polymorph Any Object.

Help me understand here
In the quote: "The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item"
it says "its (golem's) nature as a magic item".
Definition of nature: the basic or inherent features of something, especially when seen as characteristic of it

So it says "golem's basic or inherent features AS a magic item."

which is saying, golem is a magic item. It has basic or inherent features derived from its status AS a magic item.

And to you this is saying... golems are similar to magic items but are not magic items? When it directly says it has characteristics derived from its "nature AS a magic item?"

Help me understand how a Golem, which has characteristics due to its nature AS a magic item means it's not a magic item but only similar to a magic item?

Am I being intentionally dense here? To me the quote is directly saying Golems are magic items and it has characteristics such as caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, cost to create because of it. How can you interpret this quote in any other way?

Please walk me through it. Word by Word if you have to. Because to me the quote is saying golems = magic items, and because golems = magic items it has caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, and cost to create.

[RoboEmperor]

My apologies. I have a habit of deleting and reposting double posts and you seem to have ninja'd a response while I was doing that @_@


That's contradicted by the passage earlier saying they're SIMILAR to magic items. So which one wins?

Your quote that you gave, "Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item.", is saying that creating a golem is identical to creating a magic item in every way possible EXCEPT with one difference: you need to also create a body. That's it. It's not saying Golems are not magic items but you make them the same way. It's not.

[RoboEmperor]

Triple Post! @_@. Hurts my eyes. I need to calm down and post more slowly... anyways.


The cost to create given for each golem includes the cost of the physical body and all the materials and spell components that are consumed or become a permanent part of the golem. Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item. However, a golem’s body includes costly material components that may require some extra preparation. The golem’s creator can assemble the body or hire someone else to do the job. The builder must have the appropriate skill, which varies with the golem variety.

Let me break it down. Creating a golem is the same as a magic item EXCEPT it also has a separate, expensive body as part of its creation process. In no way does it say Golems are not magic items.

The non-bolded parts are irrelevant information.

[unseenmage]

That's contradicted by the passage earlier saying they're SIMILAR to magic items. So which one wins?

And THIS is why I tout 'Constructs as Magic Items' as a rules interpretation requiring GM permission.


In other news, an un-animated Construct body is just a mundane crafted object and can totally be made with Marvelous Pigments or Fabricate.

As for how big such a body would be I recommend using the Squeezing rules. We have rules for how much space a creature's body occupies at its smallest dimension so why not use them?

[magicalmagicman]

And THIS is why I tout 'Constructs as Magic Items' as a rules interpretation requiring GM permission.

No it doesn't. I think someonenoone11 did a fine job explaining it.

Golems are magic items. Their crafting method is the same as crafting magic items except with the addition of a body component. At no point does the passage say golems are similar to magic items. Only their creation process is.

This is as clear as RAW can get in d&d 3.5.

[unseenmage]

No it doesn't. I think someonenoone11 did a fine job explaining it.

Golems are magic items. Their crafting method is the same as crafting magic items except with the addition of a body component. At no point does the passage say golems are similar to magic items. Only their creation process is.

This is as clear as RAW can get in d&d 3.5.

Yes, Golems. Explicitly. Intelligent Magic Items. Explicitly.
Other Constructs are merely implied.

[RoboEmperor]

Yes, Golems. Explicitly. Intelligent Magic Items. Explicitly.
Other Constructs are merely implied.

Implied or not
1. golems derive their market price, prerequisite spells/feats, cl prerequisites, etc. from their nature as magic items.
2. therefore any creature that has market price, prerequisite spells/feats, cl prerequisites, etc. is also a magic item.

is a pretty strong argument. I can't see a DM saying no to this unless he really hates the construct you want to make. In addition to craft construct being an item creation feat.

Now, trying to get the golem's hd advancement rules onto other constructs, that's the hard argument. I'm finding this an impossible task so looking for alternate ways to increase hd of monsters...

[unseenmage]

Implied or not
1. golems derive their market price, prerequisite spells/feats, cl prerequisites, etc. from their nature as magic items.
2. therefore any creature that has market price, prerequisite spells/feats, cl prerequisites, etc. is also a magic item.

is a pretty strong argument. I can't see a DM saying no to this unless he really hates the construct you want to make. In addition to craft construct being an item creation feat.

Now, trying to get the golem's hd advancement rules onto other constructs, that's the hard argument. I'm finding this an impossible task so looking for alternate ways to increase hd of monsters...

Pathfinder wound up being my solution. Between pricing Constructs by CR and allowing weapons and armor to just be built right into the Construct it's just a superior way to handle them.


By the way, there are a couple 3.x Constructs which can be built with weapons. Brass Golem and Caryatid Column IIRC.
The fun part is those weapons can be built better than stock.
Arguably even the Dedicated Wright's hammer attack could be built from adamantine and enchanted.

With the Feats in Items sidebar you could put feats in the Construct to really jack up the weapon. Weapons of Legacy, Ancestral Relic, Item Familiar, etc.

EDIT Oh yeah, Weapon of Legacy let's the weapon be an Intelligent Magic Item and IIRC the weapon is actually part of the Construct.
Additionally Intelligent Magic Items can activate their own superpowers meaning potentially the construct gets twice the actions for its superpowers.

[RoboEmperor]

Alright so it seems everything is legal, legit, and not TO unless using the wight loop so I'm a go ahead and make a build thread once I have everything planned out.

Using scrolls of Permanency instead of Wish, the earliest you can perform the loop is at level 8 because the bottleneck is Summon Undead V. You need to be at least level 7 to be able to craft a scroll of one. So level drain, craft Permanency with 3,000xp, a scroll of restoration and summon undead V, restore level, and repeat.

Of course if we're also using Ur-Priests, the minimum level drops to level 7 because ur-preists allows the existence of CL5 summon undead V.

Being level independent, i'll probably wish myself into a Protectar for immortality at the cost 5 level loss at level 13.

Or a Sylph for some sorcerer spellcasting at the cost of 8 levels.