Earning an income with Craft Wondrous Items

[heavyfuel]

A player recently got Craft Wondrous Items as a feat in a Pathfinder campaign with a bunch of downtime.

He's still low-ish level and can't create cool items with it, but he wants to earn some cash with his new feat.

What's a good guideline for it? The game is Pathfinder btw.

Thanks!

[Oracle71]

I'd say it's pretty much the same as an npc earning a living with mundane craft or profession checks.

[Jack_Simth]

A player recently got Craft Wondrous Items as a feat in a Pathfinder campaign with a bunch of downtime.

He's still low-ish level and can't create cool items with it, but he wants to earn some cash with his new feat.

What's a good guideline for it? The game is Pathfinder btw.

Thanks!

By default RAW? Unless he's got something that says otherwise (like the Spark of Creation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/spark-of-creation-magic/) or Hedge Magician (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/hedge-magician/) traits), he's breaking even. He makes an item at half market price, and sells the item at half market price. No profit there.

If he does have either Spark of Creation or Hedge Magician, he gets 5% off his component costs - so that 1,000 gp market item costs him 475 gp to make, and he can sell it for 500 gp. That's 25 gp for a full day's work. If he can soak the 5 point penalty to work quickly, he can make a 2,000 gp market item in 1 day, using 950 gp in components, and sell it for 1,000 gp, making 50 gp in a day. Which, compared to using the "earn a living" Craft or Profession rules, would actually be quite good.

However: There's also the variant bargaining rules (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/bargaining.html) which could be used to increase prices a bit.

Edit: However: Setting it up basically like Craft or Profession, just using Spellcraft, would probably work well enough. I mean, just because you can take 2000 gp and make something with a market value of 4,000 gp in 2-4 days doesn't mean anyone wants it right now enough to pay the price. I've always assumed magic item merchants tend to sit on goods for a long, long time. If it takes two years of talking to folks to sell that +1 Club at market price (2,300 gp), which you purchased at 1,150 gp, then you've made 1,150 gp ... in 104 weeks of work, which is about 11 gp/week (or an average Profession check result of 22).

[heavyfuel]

He wants to open his own magic item shop and sell items at full price to paying customers, rather than sell them at 50% to other merchants

[Mordaedil]

Invest in appraise so you don't get idiots walking into your shop arguing that the belt of giant strength is actually worth half of what you are selling it for.

[Nifft]

He wants to open his own magic item shop and sell items at full price to paying customers, rather than sell them at 50% to other merchants

Non-Player Character [General, Fighter Bonus]

Benefit: You can open a magic item shop and sell items at full price to paying customers. Also, you gain a free bonus feat of your choice, and this feat becomes hidden and secret (only the DM can see it).

Special: By taking this feat, the character becomes wholly owned and operated by the DM.

[heavyfuel]

Ok, all of that was largely unhelpful :smallannoyed:

Any actual suggestions?

[Lapak]

Does crafting still take XP in Pathfinder? I am unfamiliar with that aspect of the rules. If so, I would let him burn it for cash if that is his desire, with the following considerations:

- setting matters. Is the area financially flush enough that there is an NPC market for magic items? Part of why PCs can be so popular is that they have vast liquid wealth and nothing to blow it on but luxury items in the form of exotic magic. Your average NPC would probably ENJOY magic items but may well have higher priorities. Setting up a shop where the entry-level price is a thousand gold only works in a really wealthy urban area, and then the market is limited to the local aristocracy.

- if the setting does allow, there is overhead to consider. You can't expect Lord Moneybags to come shopping at a hovel in the bad part of town, so you're going to have startup costs in the form of rent. Pretty steep rent, too. And you are going to need to either beef up your own customer service skills or hire a front-of-house guy to do the selling. Salary is another expense. You've gotta advertise, too.

- also, if there is a market there is either somebody already filling the niche or a reason that there isn't someone doing it. So you've got either competition you are horning in on or local laws banning magic item sales or an 80% tariff or whatever.

All these hurdles can be overcome, and can even be adventures in and of themselves, but not dealing with it is one of the reasons people become adventurers in the first place!

[Goaty14]

Non-Player Character [General, Fighter Bonus]


Ok, all of that was largely unhelpful :smallannoyed:

If you can't read sarcasm, here's a translation: "Only NPCs can sell items at full price, otherwise you get one more way to break WBL". In all honesty, you should either let him "make money" with profession, craft, spellcraft, etc and fluff it as owning a magic item shop (As Jack_Smith said, below). I think you should turn the campaign around him and his magic shoppe if you're ok with him selling at full price, seeing as it'd be too heavy handed to rule crazy stuff happens if he's not there, and too utterly broken if his cohort or whatnot is running it 24/7 free of charge.


Edit: However: Setting it up basically like Craft or Profession, just using Spellcraft, would probably work well enough. I mean, just because you can take 2000 gp and make something with a market value of 4,000 gp in 2-4 days doesn't mean anyone wants it right now enough to pay the price. I've always assumed magic item merchants tend to sit on goods for a long, long time. If it takes two years of talking to folks to sell that +1 Club at market price (2,300 gp), which you purchased at 1,150 gp, then you've made 1,150 gp ... in 104 weeks of work, which is about 11 gp/week (or an average Profession check result of 22).

[heavyfuel]

Does crafting still take XP in Pathfinder? I am unfamiliar with that aspect of the rules. If so, I would let him burn it for cash if that is his desire, with the following considerations:

- setting matters. Is the area financially flush enough that there is an NPC market for magic items? Part of why PCs can be so popular is that they have vast liquid wealth and nothing to blow it on but luxury items in the form of exotic magic. Your average NPC would probably ENJOY magic items but may well have higher priorities. Setting up a shop where the entry-level price is a thousand gold only works in a really wealthy urban area, and then the market is limited to the local aristocracy.

- if the setting does allow, there is overhead to consider. You can't expect Lord Moneybags to come shopping at a hovel in the bad part of town, so you're going to have startup costs in the form of rent. Pretty steep rent, too. And you are going to need to either beef up your own customer service skills or hire a front-of-house guy to do the selling. Salary is another expense. You've gotta advertise, too.

- also, if there is a market there is either somebody already filling the niche or a reason that there isn't someone doing it. So you've got either competition you are horning in on or local laws banning magic item sales or an 80% tariff or whatever.

All these hurdles can be overcome, and can even be adventures in and of themselves, but not dealing with it is one of the reasons people become adventurers in the first place!

It doesn't. You only pay 50% price now (which is one of the many terrible changes PF has issued if you ask me)

- It is. It's basically a big metropolis, and some of the people there want custom crafted magic items, which he can now provide.

- Fair point. Maybe ask him to pay X gp per month to cover the cost of a place to live plus advertising. Seems like a fair way to not let things get too out of control WBL-wise.

- Could be. I personally wouldn't like to so harshly limit him though.

[heavyfuel]

If you can't read sarcasm, here's a translation: "Only NPCs can sell items at full price, otherwise you get one more way to break WBL". In all honesty, you should either let him "make money" with profession, craft, spellcraft, etc and fluff it as owning a magic item shop (As Jack_Smith said, below). I think you should turn the campaign around him and his magic shoppe if you're ok with him selling at full price, seeing as it'd be too heavy handed to rule crazy stuff happens if he's not there, and too utterly broken if his cohort or whatnot is running it 24/7 free of charge.



Just because something is sarcasm, doesn't make it helpful. I don't need a translation, or your tone.

Suggesting that a mid level character make money using Profession skill is ridiculous, as the amount of money is negligible past level 1.

The shop would be more of a side note. Like I mentioned, the campaign has a bunch of downtime. I just want a simple way to say "Ok, during these 5 weeks you had for yourselves your shop earned you X amount of gold. Go have fun now".

[Goaty14]

Just because something is sarcasm, doesn't make it helpful. I don't need a translation, or your tone.

Then don't use it. I don't need your opinion of my sarcasm, nor my tone.


Suggesting that a mid level character make money using Profession skill is ridiculous, as the amount of money is negligible past level 1.

Because Profession isn't a skill meant for PCs. See my second suggestion.


The shop would be more of a side note. Like I mentioned, the campaign has a bunch of downtime. I just want a simple way to say "Ok, during these 5 weeks you had for yourselves your shop earned you X amount of gold. Go have fun now".

...Which you didn't say. Notice how you don't get the answers you want when you don't explain the question you have.

I think there are rules for this sort of thing in the DMG II (for 3.5). If all else fails, there's always Kingmaker in PF.

[skunk3]

I think that one of the best ways to make money crafting is to just make items for your party. They get them for less than full price and you make a profit. Yeah, it costs XP but XP is easily regained. Besides, unless you have a LOT of downtime in the game you're not likely to make a vast fortune by selling items anyway.

[Jack_Simth]

Just because something is sarcasm, doesn't make it helpful. I don't need a translation, or your tone.

Suggesting that a mid level character make money using Profession skill is ridiculous, as the amount of money is negligible past level 1.

The shop would be more of a side note. Like I mentioned, the campaign has a bunch of downtime. I just want a simple way to say "Ok, during these 5 weeks you had for yourselves your shop earned you X amount of gold. Go have fun now".

Well... in that case, maybe have him make a few skill checks?

Diplomacy (Gather Information): to find suitable clients
Sense Motive: To make sure they'll pay up
Spellcraft: To actually craft the item.
Each DC 20. For each five full points he beats any skill check by, roll 1d4. Add up the d4's, muliply that by 100 gp, and that's his profit margin per month's work. So if, for instance, he rolls:
Diplomacy 22
Sense Motive 26
Spellcraft 31
Then he beat the diplomacy check, got 1d4 on Sense Motive for beating it by 5, and got 2d4 on Spellcraft for beating it by 10. So then he rolls 3d4 * 100 gp, which is his profit margin.

If he fails any check, it doesn't work out. Diplomacy (Gather Information) failure means he doesn't find a client. Sense Motive failure means the client shorts him. Failure on the Spellcraft means he fails to make the item successfully. He can ask other party members to handle the Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks, but if so, those other party members are spending the month doing those portions of the business (and thus, aren't doing other income-earning things), and will probably want a slice of the pie.

Adjust the * 100 gp bit at the end to suit.

[ericgrau]

Ok, all of that was largely unhelpful :smallannoyed:

Any actual suggestions?

He can totally sell at full price... if he can find a buyer. Give him the option to craft a bunch of wondrous items that he think will sell and let them sit in his shop. Make up random tables for how often something gets bought. Usually not that often, depending on how many level 5+ characters are in your campaign. Could even take weeks for a single sale. Setting up shop in a major city will help. He can also actively look for buyers with gather information checks, ask what they want, and make it. Note that no matter how successful he is there is a limited number of people in the entire city to buy, plus there might be competitors selling items too. Of course he can always try to undercut them a little.

Have him pay for the shop (or rent one), an attendant and security. That'll probably come to a small handful of gp a day (single digit or teens maybe) but it adds up after many days. Maybe more if he does any marketing.

The cheapest super useful item I could find was unguent of timelessness at 150 gp. It's great for preserving bodies. One unguent works on 8 medium size bodies. Arguably it could allow a raise dead spell to work after 9+ years. He would have to market it a bit but it's something both his party and other parties might like. Fan feather token, 200 gp, is good in an area with a port to speed up shipping of goods. 25mph for 8 hours, so 200 miles. That's roughly triple a sailing ship's typical average speed. A faster haul might make up the cost and more, if there's enough profit per trip. Because then the ship can make 3 times as many trips per month. Next is silversheen, 250gp, which is good to prep against DR/silver. Etc. Just go down the table from cheapest to most expensive in the DMG and/or MIC. Or have him do it. Let him get creative on how an item could be useful and on finding buyers.

Or skip all that but at least roll checks to see how many he can sell. i.e., not many. But it'll get him a small amount of coin on the side. You can do a quick and dirty estimate for a flat amount and/or a check boosted amount. But rough ballpark I'd say 1 cheap item a week. Likewise ballpark his expenses. Maybe 50 gp a week. So simplest answer... you could guess for example 100 gp profit a week, don't do any rolls, and move on. If you want some randomness and excitement then 1d20*1d20-10 averages to 100 gp, but it might go as high as 390 gp. Or 1d6*1d6*1d6*1d6-50 averages 100 gp but ranges from -49 gp to 1,246 gp (both ends extremely rare).

DON'T let him make and sell unlimited items. Not at full price anyway. The reason shops pay half right away is because they have to do all the work above to sell for full. It's the price of convenience. Plus that'll break WBL of course.

[Nifft]

The shop would be more of a side note. Like I mentioned, the campaign has a bunch of downtime. I just want a simple way to say "Ok, during these 5 weeks you had for yourselves your shop earned you X amount of gold. Go have fun now".

Usually there are balance reasons for not giving PCs extra money above & beyond what they earn by their game-related activities.

If the PCs are below WBL, and you are looking for an excuse to get them up to WBL, then give them the difference (after rolling dice behind the screen of course).

If you're looking for quest hooks to get them adventuring, then give them specific commissions which require components from dangerous creatures and/or locations. Then give them quest-appropriate wealth of the sort they would have earned by the encounters they've just overcome -- then it's an alternative reward mechanism rather than a passive income mechanism.

[ericgrau]

^ Yeah but realistically we're talking 500 gp after 5 weeks of down time, so it's not a big deal. And he also loses about 30 xp. This is from what I wrote above assuming limited buyers and the costs of maintaining the store.

So the tldr for everything I wrote is: gain 100 gp and lose 6 xp each week. Ok yay now let's go back to the adventure. I'm gonna take a wild guess without checking that PF got rid of the xp cost, and if so just ignore that part.

[Nifft]

And he also loses about 30 xp.

Pathfinder game -> no XP cost.

This is nothing but downtime grinding for gold.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Well, I don’t know how to manage the profit margin, but more realistically, unless you’re generating lots of expendable, low-cost items, a magic item crafter would work mostly by commission.

[lbuttitta]

Perhaps he could use Craft (alchemy)?

[FinalParadigm]

Have him take the Harvested Parts feat, this allows him to harvest parts from slain enemies and use them for crafting. You can use parts for crafting up to 25% the market value of the item meaning that he would be netting that 25% as profit. One downside to the feat is that the parts spoil so he would need to come up with a solution for that. Like a bag imbued with gentle repose or something.

[Leo_0210]

For your player i recommend docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YRD22fzR7W3kYOmax7QWeMeNcfRZVgyxMyJOu62pYho/edit?usp=sharing this google sheet i found while scrolling though reddit a few weeks back. its a sheet that lists all the craftable items, their descriptions, and requirements to craft. There is even a portion of the Sheet that can tell the crafter if they have the necessary take-10 ability to just craft it. Its a wonderful tool for any PC who wants to build things for their party or to sell.


As for making money: i would look at Ultimate Campaign for this as there is a full set of downtime rules. d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime/#TOC-Gaining-Capital For quick reference here is the link to the d20pfsrd.


They will never make as much gold running shop as they would being an adventurer, but if they want to do both the downtime rules cover owning a business and leaving it in the hands of an attendant while you are gone. I am GM with the mindset that all characters should have a profession as it gives them depth, though i do know that it costs a skill point. It is a Role-playing game after all.

I hope this is helpful and not as muddy as I fear it to be.

Also apologies for not hyperlinking, I've not reached that post limit yet.

[heavyfuel]

He can totally sell at full price... if he can find a buyer. Give him the option to craft a bunch of wondrous items that he think will sell and let them sit in his shop. Make up random tables for how often something gets bought. Usually not that often, depending on how many level 5+ characters are in your campaign. Could even take weeks for a single sale. Setting up shop in a major city will help. He can also actively look for buyers with gather information checks, ask what they want, and make it. Note that no matter how successful he is there is a limited number of people in the entire city to buy, plus there might be competitors selling items too. Of course he can always try to undercut them a little.

Or skip all that but at least roll checks to see how many he can sell. i.e., not many. But it'll get him a small amount of coin on the side. You can do a quick and dirty estimate for a flat amount and/or a check boosted amount. But rough ballpark I'd say 1 cheap item a week. Likewise ballpark his expenses. Maybe 50 gp a week. So simplest answer... you could guess for example 100 gp profit a week, don't do any rolls, and move on. If you want some randomness and excitement then 1d20*1d20-10 averages to 100 gp, but it might go as high as 390 gp. Or 1d6*1d6*1d6*1d6-50 averages 100 gp but ranges from -49 gp to 1,246 gp (both ends extremely rare).

DON'T let him make and sell unlimited items. Not at full price anyway. The reason shops pay half right away is because they have to do all the work above to sell for full. It's the price of convenience. Plus that'll break WBL of course.

I like the idea of creating random tables. Since NPCs above level 3 are very few in numbers, I'm thinking a low percentage to sell a single item per week. Maybe 7% for a single sale, 2% for two sales, and 1% for three sales? This is assuming people want stuff like Amulets of Natural Armor and such. So each sale is like 2000 GP in profit.

Having him roll his Craft skill check is also interesting. People paying over 4000 gold for an amulet would like the amulet to be, at least, very well made. Maybe 1d100+Craft Modifier. Anything above 100 and he makes a sale, more sales for higher numbers.

I don't intend of letting him sell unlimited items. Despite the campaign having a lot of downtime, it's not unlimited.


Usually there are balance reasons for not giving PCs extra money above & beyond what they earn by their game-related activities.

If the PCs are below WBL, and you are looking for an excuse to get them up to WBL, then give them the difference (after rolling dice behind the screen of course).

If you're looking for quest hooks to get them adventuring, then give them specific commissions which require components from dangerous creatures and/or locations. Then give them quest-appropriate wealth of the sort they would have earned by the encounters they've just overcome -- then it's an alternative reward mechanism rather than a passive income mechanism.

They have wealth very close to WBL. Right now I think they're a bit richer than recommended, but by a small margin.

I don't want to give them quests like this since "Fetch quests" are pretty boring. Plus, I don't want to drag the campaign much longer. I just want this to be a side note.


Well, I don’t know how to manage the profit margin, but more realistically, unless you’re generating lots of expendable, low-cost items, a magic item crafter would work mostly by commission.

What are your thoughts regarding the random tables as Ericgrau suggested?


As for making money: i would look at Ultimate Campaign for this as there is a full set of downtime rules. d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/downtime/#TOC-Gaining-Capital For quick reference here is the link to the d20pfsrd.


They will never make as much gold running shop as they would being an adventurer, but if they want to do both the downtime rules cover owning a business and leaving it in the hands of an attendant while you are gone. I am GM with the mindset that all characters should have a profession as it gives them depth, though i do know that it costs a skill point. It is a Role-playing game after all.

I hope this is helpful and not as muddy as I fear it to be.

I really like the idea of simply using the rules from Ultimate Campaign. It's not good income, but if he complains I show him the rules and shrug "Hey, it is how it is". Since it's something created by Paizo and not me, I can better justify not giving them a bunch of wealth from out of nowhere. Thanks for sharing this.

[Jowgen]

Your player wants to run a business where he wants to handle both production and retail on top of being an adventurer, which is like having 3 full time jobs. Unless he's undead or otherwise doesn't need to eat/sleep, it shouldn't be feasible to do all 3 at once.

I suggest urging him to revise his intended business model to one of the following:

1) Get himself hired by an existing magic item shop business to craft for them. They tell him what they want crafted for sale for the next month, give him reliable access to the materials, and pay him based on the amount of time he spends crafting. Exact pay rates can be negotiated for (e.g. salary vs commission on profits), and might be somewhat variable based on how the actual shop does (i.e. singing with a bad salesman can happen).

If he doesn't make his deadline because of adventuring trouble, they might dock his pay for the next month or fire him if it keeps happening. This would also reduce the business's overall success. You can allow him to make extra checks while crafting to make his items look nicer or have a more convenient design, which might help keep the business running.

2) Have him advertise himself as an independent contractor who crafts bespoke items on request. No physical store, just information booklets on what he can do and what he charges. You'll be controlling how many people come to him, what prices they wanna pay (could barter to get to full market price), and how trustworthy they are (e.g. might try to scam or steal).

[heavyfuel]

Your player wants to run a business where he wants to handle both production and retail on top of being an adventurer, which is like having 3 full time jobs. Unless he's undead or otherwise doesn't need to eat/sleep, it shouldn't be feasible to do all 3 at once.

I suggest urging him to revise his intended business model to one of the following:

2) Have him advertise himself as an independent contractor who crafts bespoke items on request. No physical store, just information booklets on what he can do and what he charges. You'll be controlling how many people come to him, what prices they wanna pay (could barter to get to full market price), and how trustworthy they are (e.g. might try to scam or steal).

Oh, it's definitely like model #2 and not the three full-time jobs.

Any suggestions on actually making it happen?

[Jack_Simth]

Maybe have him make a few skill checks?

Diplomacy (Gather Information): to find suitable clients
Sense Motive: To make sure they'll pay up
Spellcraft: To actually craft the item.
Each DC 20. For each five full points he beats any skill check by, roll 1d4. Add up the d4's, muliply that by 100 gp, and that's his profit margin per month's work. So if, for instance, he rolls:
Diplomacy 22
Sense Motive 26
Spellcraft 31
Then he beat the diplomacy check, got 1d4 on Sense Motive for beating it by 5, and got 2d4 on Spellcraft for beating it by 10. So then he rolls 3d4 * 100 gp, which is his profit margin.

If he fails any check, it doesn't work out. Diplomacy (Gather Information) failure means he doesn't find a client. Sense Motive failure means the client shorts him. Failure on the Spellcraft means he fails to make the item successfully. He can ask other party members to handle the Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks, but if so, those other party members are spending the month doing those portions of the business (and thus, aren't doing other income-earning things), and will probably want a slice of the pie.

Adjust the * 100 gp bit at the end to suit.

[Jowgen]

Oh, it's definitely like model #2 and not the three full-time jobs.

Any suggestions on actually making it happen?

If I were running it, I'd use a basic reputation score system. Value of 0-100 for a given area, with 0 being unknown and 100 being a household name. Add points for advertisements and publicity boosting stuff like saving the king, while deducting points for failures and scandals. Might want to do separate scores based on target demographic (i.e. popular with LG cleric, avoided by LE assassins).

I'd do one percentile roll for the chance of a new customer finding them (i.e. reputation score of 40 = needs to roll 60 or above). The level of the customer would be random rolled on a d20 (up to the player's level), and the request would be for a level appropriate item. Opposed Persuasion/Bluff roll to agree on price, at a loss the player sells at cost, at a win every 5 point by which he beats the other adds 10% towards full market price.

The'd be my take.

[Quertus]

Most people seem to be looking at this backwards. You should start by asking, "what does the character do?" Then work from there. Does he chose to advertise; if so, how? Does he chose to make items in advance, or wait for customers to make requests? Does he buy or rent, and in what part of town? Does he employ any kind of security? Does he take payment up front / on credit / in favors / in items / etc?

Don't ask him these questions, just ask him what he intends to do, fill in the details on the questions you've already asked yourself, and have things proceeded from there.

(EDIT - be prepared with information on who would want what - and how they would respond to finding out that he can't make some of what they want. Also, be prepared in case he's smart enough to do something productive with any downtime that isn't spent actively crafting items!)

If he's smart, will this give him a lot of money? Yes. If he's dumb, will this cost him a lot of money? Yes.

If his character becomes unbalanced, or starts taking to much of your time / attention / the limelight, there is the risk that he may need to retire the character and create a new one. It you believe that this is a possibility, you should broach the subject with him, and discuss how he'd like to handle that.

Personally, I love the idea of a character getting extra Intel on who is ordering what items, and forming that strong connection to the community. Much cooler, IMO, than the murderhobos who would prefer to visit his shop if it's in the bad part of town, because extra XP for defeating thugs on a shopping trip, am I right?

[Quertus]

Oh, it's definitely like model #2 and not the three full-time jobs.

Any suggestions on actually making it happen?

So, it sounds like you need only model the effectiveness of his "advertising" / word of mouth, and the total demand of the city (and surrounding areas, travelers, etc).

I would model demand based on demand for luxury items. I'm sure Google can give you some numbers for % capita's spent on luxury items - just replace, say, "computers" with "magic items". Divide this Demand by his fraction of Supply (based on number of competitors, what he can make, who knows of him, etc). Don't forget that "imports" are also in competition with him.

Sound reasonable?