Exactly how often is the paladin ability to cure poison useful?

[holywhippet]

Aside from most of the literal poisons listed which have to be applied one way or another, I can't seem to find any cases where a character could get inflicted with a poison that has a duration effect. Most of the times they just do immediate damage and then end. The paladin lay on hands ability only serves to remove a poison that has a duration, it won't help against regular poison damage. Are there any monsters/spells I've overlooked?

[Pex]

Depends on the DM. In the game I'm in playing for nearly 4 years real world time every three weeks, I've had to cure poison exactly 0 times. You can say the same for any specifically niche ability of anyone - depends on the DM. A niche ability, as I define it, is an ability you can do only when the adventure calls for it. You can't just decide to do it. Circumstances have to align to allow for it. For example, as a paladin you can smite to your heart's content because you get to decide when you smite, and when you do you can do it. Same thing with Extra Attack. When you want to attack twice you can because you want to. To cure poison, you can only do that when the adventure has someone be poisoned to use it upon. The DM needs to have an NPC/monster use a poison effect. Only then can you cure it. You can never cure poison when you want to when the DM does not have an NPC/monster use poison. There's no poison to cure.

[holywhippet]

Yes, but I more meant that even if the DM threw random monsters at you and random spells, it seems like none of them will leave the poisoned condition on character.

[ImproperJustice]

Agreed.

It came up recently when we did battle with a Green Dragon in it’s lair.
It used a wide variety of environmental effects and it’s breath / bite to spread the posion condition and wear us down.

You do not want disadvantage on attack rolls when facing a Dragon.

We also saw the Protection from Poison spell spammed a lot as well in that fight.


Since that that time?
It’s been Hill Giants, bugbears, and their pets, so not so much with the poison.

[LudicSavant]

Are there any monsters/spells I've overlooked?

There are numerous things that you have overlooked. In addition to most of the list of DMG poisons which can be applied (which you already mentioned), there are various dungeon hazards, monsters, and other effects which induce poison with a duration.

Here are just some of the examples, just from the core books alone:
Couatls
Ettercaps
Pseudodragons
Grell
Centipede swarms
Bearded Devils
Bone Devils
Myconid Sovereigns
Vrocks
Quasits
Deep gnomes
Phase Spiders
Chuuls
Drow in general
Carrion Crawlers
Dretches
Yochlols
Thri-Kreen
Flumphs
Ghasts
Giant Centipedes
Giant Spiders
Giant Wolf Spiders
Troglodytes
Sprites
Homunculi
Yellow Mold dungeon hazard
Poison Needle traps
Ray of Sickness
Bag of Beans fungus sprouts
Dagger of Venom
Potion of Poison

Need I go on? Because there are more.

Also worth noting that the Paladin doesn't just cure poison, but diseases too, such as from gas spores, death dogs, or otyughs.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Just as further evidence of what Pex is saying, I've had to use the ability to cure poison/disease almost every session I've ever played a paladin in.

I'm currently on my third 5e paladin right now.

But I trained the DM for two of these myself, and one of my rules is 'let players use their cool powers enough to make them feel special'. A lesson he seems to have learned well.

A different DM might instead go 'huh, poison's a non-issue because there's a paladin. Guess I won't use poison'. I'd even hazard a guess and say that's a lot more common.

[Asmotherion]

Raw, it's useless.

As I DM it, poisons stay 'till you save (with a different initial DC depending on the poison), and the DC increases by 1 on each fail (caps at 30). So it's much more useful.

[LudicSavant]

Raw, it's useless.

[citation needed]

[Arvin Natsuko]

Lay on Hands is good without it. So it's not an useless ability. It's a plus. Usually you use for HPs, and when came up a situation of poison or disease, you are covered. I don't see the issue.

And as an example, in my last Campaign, the Paladin have used it to cure a sick Giant NPC (Old Warklegnaw for RHoD fans) and gain his favor.

[Pex]

Just as further evidence of what Pex is saying, I've had to use the ability to cure poison/disease almost every session I've ever played a paladin in.

I'm currently on my third 5e paladin right now.

But I trained the DM for two of these myself, and one of my rules is 'let players use their cool powers enough to make them feel special'. A lesson he seems to have learned well.

A different DM might instead go 'huh, poison's a non-issue because there's a paladin. Guess I won't use poison'. I'd even hazard a guess and say that's a lot more common.

Agreed. In my case it's also charm. Since I'm a Devotion Paladin and immune to charm the party very rarely deals with opponents trying to charm. We did a couple of sessions ago but before then was around 2 real world years of playing ago. The DM metagamed and purposely did not target me for the domination effect even though the monster had no way of knowing I wouldn't be affected. He didn't want to waste the monster's turn. However, he forgot the aura also protects party members within 10 ft of me. :smallamused:

He's definitely not one of my favorite DMs, but the game is more fun than whatever gripes I have so I keep playing. The ironic thing is not counting the game I quit, this was my least favorite campaign of all the ones I've played. However, those other ones ended because of real life interfering yet this one, my least favorite, is still going strong after 4 years. He has gotten better than when we first started. There's actual roleplaying now. Roleplaying used to be listening to an NPC tell us something then repeat back those same words to another NPC who needed the information. Now we have conversations and get to influence NPCs doing stuff, but I digress.

[DarkKnightJin]

The very first character I got to play, even if for a single session, was a Paladin.
The party had to figure out why the town's mayor wasn't getting better, even though there was someone taking care of them. The town healers couldn't figure out what disease was so nasty it wouldn't be healed. The Cleric and Sorcerer had a look to identify the disease.

My Paladin goes up to the mayor, says "We don't have time to muck around like this", and uses Lay on Hands to purge poison/disease. Turns out they were being poisoned, by the one that was ostensibly taking care of them.

The DM kinda forgot Pally had that ability.

[Pelle]

But I trained the DM for two of these myself, and one of my rules is 'let players use their cool powers enough to make them feel special'. A lesson he seems to have learned well.

A different DM might instead go 'huh, poison's a non-issue because there's a paladin. Guess I won't use poison'. I'd even hazard a guess and say that's a lot more common.

I'd hazard a guess that if a different DM don't use poison against the paladin, it's more likely because the DM didn't look at the character sheet for abilities, and rather played creatures that were natural opponents for the context.

If a player of mine has an ability to do with sharks, and the players decide to go to the mountains, I am not spiting the player for not having any shark encounters. Should you engineer encounters to let people use niche abilities? Some players like it, but some hate it as well.

[nickl_2000]

Should you engineer encounters to let people use niche abilities?


Yes, landsharks, sharknados, and sharkstorms!

[Snowbluff]

I was playing my Paladin2/Bladesinger8 in a CCC mod. We got poisoned by spores, no save, death in 24 hours while we were 2 days from civilization. I saved 2 members of the team.

That's the only time I used it, in a bull**** situation that shouldn't have happened. :smallyuk:

[Wisefool]

DM-dependent.

The Lv. 2 dwarf cleric in our group was poisoned by a giant wolf spider and we had to haul his armored butt to the next village to get healed by the local priest. Our paladin joined the next session...

[Vogie]

I've been considering a Cowboy/sheriff-inspired build that has a paladin dip... they use their lay on hands to slap people sober.

[DeTess]

Over about 1.5 years playing a weekly game, I've used it to clear a couple of diseases, and once to clear the poisoned condition in a fight (because that's a thing you generally want to get rid of now, rather than later). It's a niche ability, but its nice to have and its not like Paladins lack generally applicable class features.

[Throne12]

There are numerous things that you have overlooked. In addition to most of the list of DMG poisons which can be applied (which you already mentioned), there are various dungeon hazards, monsters, and other effects which induce poison with a duration.

Here are just some of the examples, just from the core books alone:
Couatls
Ettercaps
Pseudodragons
Grell
Centipede swarms
Bearded Devils
Bone Devils
Myconid Sovereigns
Vrocks
Quasits
Deep gnomes
Phase Spiders
Chuuls
Drow in general
Carrion Crawlers
Dretches
Yochlols
Thri-Kreen
Flumphs
Ghasts
Giant Centipedes
Giant Spiders
Giant Wolf Spiders
Troglodytes
Sprites
Homunculi
Yellow Mold dungeon hazard
Poison Needle traps
Ray of Sickness
Bag of Beans fungus sprouts
Dagger of Venom
Potion of Poison

Need I go on? Because there are more.

Also worth noting that the Paladin doesn't just cure poison, but diseases too, such as from gas spores, death dogs, or otyughs.

Your forgetting the slaad.

[Bloodcloud]

I've been considering a Cowboy/sheriff-inspired build that has a paladin dip... they use their lay on hands to slap people sober.

Now that is a cool idea... Never forget alcohol is poison!

[Throne12]

I'd hazard a guess that if a different DM don't use poison against the paladin, it's more likely because the DM didn't look at the character sheet for abilities, and rather played creatures that were natural opponents for the context.

If a player of mine has an ability to do with sharks, and the players decide to go to the mountains, I am not spiting the player for not having any shark encounters. Should you engineer encounters to let people use niche abilities? Some players like it, but some hate it as well.

So you never heard of the waterfall shark or the creekbed nerve shark. Or the winged cloud shark.

[LudicSavant]

Your forgetting the slaad.

And the Erinyes. And the Pit Fiend, and the....


Need I go on? Because there are more.

Needless to say, the OP is overlooking more than a few sources of poison with duration. There are lots and lots in the Monster Manual and the Dungeon Master's Guide.

[ciarannihill]

I'd hazard a guess that if a different DM don't use poison against the paladin, it's more likely because the DM didn't look at the character sheet for abilities, and rather played creatures that were natural opponents for the context.

If a player of mine has an ability to do with sharks, and the players decide to go to the mountains, I am not spiting the player for not having any shark encounters. Should you engineer encounters to let people use niche abilities? Some players like it, but some hate it as well.

Seems a bit straw-man to me, since as evidenced above there are monsters that use poison and disease that are appropriate for nearly every environmental/campaign/narrative context -- not to mention his point wasn't that you should undermine the setting for the sake of allowing the player to use niche mechanics, but that mechanics that seem niche coming up is a great feeling for a player and you shouldn't avoid letting players experience that because it's not a challenging experience: "Poison is trivial because Paladin means I shouldn't bother with Poison" is a bad mindset to be in.

When appropriate/possible you should allow your players to make use of their whole sheet, IMO. Obviously this has the overriding condition of not undermining the overall campaign/adventure/story/etc.

[Pelle]

"Poison is trivial because Paladin means I shouldn't bother with Poison" is a bad mindset to be in.


I agree about this. My point was that if you don't see any poison as a paladin, you don't need to assume that the DM has this mindset. You can just as well assume that the DM is not tailoring encounters at all, neither favorably nor unfavorably towards the PCs. I don't think it is more common among DMs to tailor unfavorably. If there's a lack of favorable tailoring, I think it's more likely to just not be tailored.

[LudicSavant]

Okay, so I just went through the MM, and there are no less than 43 monster stat blocks that have the ability to induce poison or disease with duration which is removed by the Paladin's Lay on Hands ability. More if you count indirect sources (such as the ability to summon creatures with such abilities).

43. That's a lot, and that's just the very first Monster Manual.

On top of that, it also handles a variety of dungeon hazards like yellow mold and dart traps (which give poisons with durations), all diseases and most of the poisons in the DMG, and various effects from magic items. That's another big pile of stuff.

The supplements add significantly more (For example, Volo's raises that number to around 74 (or 59 if you don't count all the Grung variants), *plus* has sections in the lore about gnolls spreading disease, kobolds using disease-covered spikes in their traps, etc etc).

If you're not running into anything with duration poisons/diseases, it's not for a lack of material in the rules. As Ciarannihill says, there are sources of poison and disease for pretty much every environment.

[Chaelos]

When you fight a sibriex, trust me, a paladin's ability to cure any poison is going to be huge.

[MrStabby]

The paladin in my games has met some pretty nasty homebrew creatures with mean poison effects (such as paralysis and turn after turn damage as well as the poisoned condition). He knows they are "poison" because as a dwarf he had advantage on the save but never used lay on hands to clear them up. I gave the opportunity, ensured that there was enough evidence it was poison but it is not my job to play my players characters for them.

[Ding]

It really just depends on whether or not lingering poisons and/or disease are a mechanic your DM likes to use to screw with the party. My group has had exactly one disease, which was magical in nature, and one case of lingering poison over the last 2-3 years of playing. Needless to say, my Paladin hasn't gotten much use out of that aspect of Lay on Hands. I've talked with others who have poisons and diseases come up much more regularly, however. Plus there are a decent amount of monsters that can poison in such a way.

I just view the ability to cure poison as something that's nice to have around, just in case, like immunity to disease. It may well dissuade the DM from throwing poisons and/or diseases at the party in the first place. He/she knows it probably will just serve as a tax on your healing pool.

[MaxWilson]

Agreed.

It came up recently when we did battle with a Green Dragon in it’s lair.
It used a wide variety of environmental effects and it’s breath / bite to spread the posion condition and wear us down.

Do note that vanilla MM Green Dragons do not inflict the Poisoned condition with their bites or breath weapons--but I am totally going to steal that idea from your DM because by vanilla Green Dragons are the most boring dragons there is. (Subjective judgment on my part. Something about them just bores me.)

[LudicSavant]

Do note that vanilla MM Green Dragons do not inflict the Poisoned condition with their bites or breath weapons--but I am totally going to steal that idea from your DM because by vanilla Green Dragons are the most boring dragons there is. (Subjective judgment on my part. Something about them just bores me.)

Yeah. Green Dragons don't grant the Poisoned condition. There's only one dragon that does so (beyond stuff like adding spellcasting), and that's a Red Dragon in its lair.


Volcanic gases form a cloud in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point the dragon can see within 120 feet of it. The sphere spreads a round corners, and its area is lightly obscured. It lasts until initiative count 20 on the next round. Each creature that starts its turn in the cloud must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or be poisoned until the end of its turn. While poisoned in this way, a creature is incapacitated.

[ImproperJustice]

Do note that vanilla MM Green Dragons do not inflict the Poisoned condition with their bites or breath weapons--but I am totally going to steal that idea from your DM because by vanilla Green Dragons are the most boring dragons there is. (Subjective judgment on my part. Something about them just bores me.)

Hmmm. Interesting. Our GM may have just raised the bar to test us. But yeah. We had to fight it inside a giant Hedge Maze. He kept sprouting posionous bramble walls to divide us as he ran from us the entire fight. He like to tail whallol us as we came around blind coreners. The hedges greatly impeded us but did nothing to keep him from blasting his breath weapon through it.
He also had some minor illusions as well just to make things more difficult. It was tough and satisfying.

In all fairness though. There was nothing that required us to fight this crafty beast. We went out of our way to seek it out and challenge it in it’s lair. Beyond that it had been terrorizing the locals for some time.

In the end, we had to spread out, and one PC feigned succumbing to posion so that it would strike him down and we were able to sorta “contain it” into a straight fight.

[Arkhios]

Technically, alcohol is poison too. I'd say that especially Oath of the Ancients paladin, if they lived by their tenets, will need the ability to cure poison (or disease, if you catch my drift) after a long night in a tavern or two :smalltongue:

[Angelalex242]

Any Oath of anything Paladin doesn't need to cure disease in himself.

Only pre oath paladins have to worry about that.

Disease proof comes online at level 3.

[Arkhios]

Any Oath of anything Paladin doesn't need to cure disease in himself.

Only pre oath paladins have to worry about that.

Disease proof comes online at level 3.

Why so serious? ..
besides, ime, quite a few paladin players decide their oath already at the first level.

[Clistenes]

The very first character I got to play, even if for a single session, was a Paladin.
The party had to figure out why the town's mayor wasn't getting better, even though there was someone taking care of them. The town healers couldn't figure out what disease was so nasty it wouldn't be healed. The Cleric and Sorcerer had a look to identify the disease.

My Paladin goes up to the mayor, says "We don't have time to muck around like this", and uses Lay on Hands to purge poison/disease. Turns out they were being poisoned, by the one that was ostensibly taking care of them.

The DM kinda forgot Pally had that ability.

I wonder... if there is a some plague or pox outbreak, and a paladin, cleric, bard or druid uses spellcasting to fight against it... Do you think a cured patient should become immunized, just as if they had beaten the disease naturally, or should they remain vulnerable to it?

It would make a huge difference... I mean, if patients become immunized, they would eventually defeat the plague forever... if not, the cleric or paladin would have to spend the rest of their life curing people everyday...

[DeTess]

I wonder... if there is a some plague or pox outbreak, and a paladin, cleric, bard or druid uses spellcasting to fight against it... Do you think a cured patient should become immunized, just as if they had beaten the disease naturally, or should they remain vulnerable to it?

It would make a huge difference... I mean, if patients become immunized, they would eventually defeat the plague forever... if not, the cleric or paladin would have to spend the rest of their life curing people everyday...

I'd say they wouldn't be immunized, but any trace of the disease would be removed from their bodies, so magical disease control is a bit more involved than sending in a high-level cleric or two. You could stille beat a disease, but you'd need to employ quarantine and other measures to keep people from being re-infected.

[Th0ven]

On the early stages of OotA, it's come in handy against the drow sleeping poison.