Brainstorming Shifter Totemist Substitution Levels, Accepting Alternate Suggestions

[PhantasyPen]

(So I'm not actually sure if this particular thread belongs here or in the homebrew forum, since this is meant to be more of an information gathering thread rather than the real thing. I ultimately decided to put the initial post here because it gets more traffic.)
So after going through the MoI for the umpteenth time and being on a major Shifter kick lately I thought I might try my hand at introducing these two things together and see how it turns out. Honestly I'm surprised that there isn't already a set of official shifter substitution levels for the totemist considering just how well their fluff matches up.


Currenty my write-up is as follows:

Shifter totemists gain full BAB, rather than 3/4th's BAB, so beyond first level, all the substitution levels are on dead levels.
At first level, you lost Wild Empathy, but now Essentia and Incarnum feats count as Shifter feats for the purpose of determining the duration of your shifting and the number of times per day you can shift.
At fourth level, while you are shifting, you gain temporary bonus Essentia equal to the number of Shifter feats you have. (Essentia and Incarnum feats don't count towards this bonus essentia as explained above.)
Now, seventh level is still where I'm getting stuck, I'm torn between giving the shifter totemist the ability to invest essentia into their shifting, thereby increasing the number of rounds they can shift (and possibly the benefits of their primary shifter trait, does anyone think getting both of these benefits would be too much?) or giving the shifter totemist the ability to increase their totem chakra's essentia capacity at a rate of +1/2 shifter feats.

[Glimbur]

What are you planning to trade out for the substitutions? They seem like thematic abilities and also stronger than the current class. Full BAB is a nice bonus but totemist does not really need it.
Counting [incarnum] feats as shifter feats is a nice buff to two sets of mediocre feats so I like it.
Extra essential for shifter feats when shifting sounds good except it is too good in conjunction with the first substitution. You end up with a lot more essentia than a normal totemist.
9th level... the clear theme is that you get better at incarnum by shifting. Maybe add a few new soulmelds? Or shape another meld only when you shift? Another bind when shifting might be too much.
You could substitute out some essentia for these features, spend some feats and you end up with more in combat and less out of combat. You don't have enough to trade for full BAB though, I would drop that idea and have 5th and 9th level cost 1 essentia to take. 1st level can be free.

[PhantasyPen]

I actually forgot I posted this here, oops. Anyways, in the homebrew thread I got a bunch of suggestions and currently this is where the substitution levels stand:


Shifter totemists gain full BAB, rather than 3/4th's BAB, so beyond first level, all the substitution levels are on dead levels.
At first level, you lost Wild Empathy, but now Essentia and Incarnum feats count as Shifter feats for the purpose of determining the duration of your shifting and the number of times per day you can shift.
At fourth level, while you are shifting, you gain temporary bonus Essentia equal to the number of Shifter feats you have. (Essentia and Incarnum feats don't count towards this bonus essentia as explained above.)
Now, seventh level is still where I'm getting stuck, I'm torn between giving the shifter totemist the ability to invest essentia into their shifting, thereby increasing the number of rounds they can shift (and possibly the benefits of their primary shifter trait, does anyone think getting both of these benefits would be too much?) or giving the shifter totemist the ability to increase their totem chakra's essentia capacity at a rate of +1/2 shifter feats.

[eggynack]

The abilities seem okay, maybe a bit weak (that obviously depends on what they're traded for, but, I dunno, I'd think you'd want something a bit splashier), but I don't love the full BAB thing. Not just for strength reasons, but because it doesn't strike me as all that thematic. Are shifters really full BAB types? Neither their stat mods nor their favored class give the impression that they're these amazing bruisers. They strike me as a lot like totemists, really, which should constitute no change in this regard.

[Cosi]

Totemist is a melee class. It should have been full BAB to begin with. The optimal solution is to give the benefit to everyone, but just Shifters having it is probably better than no one getting it.

[PhantasyPen]

The abilities seem okay, maybe a bit weak (that obviously depends on what they're traded for, but, I dunno, I'd think you'd want something a bit splashier), but I don't love the full BAB thing. Not just for strength reasons, but because it doesn't strike me as all that thematic. Are shifters really full BAB types? Neither their stat mods nor their favored class give the impression that they're these amazing bruisers. They strike me as a lot like totemists, really, which should constitute no change in this regard.

Allow me to explain!


Totemist is a melee class. It should have been full BAB to begin with. .

As Cosi said. But also because the Totemist is supposed to emulate Magical Beasts, and what do magical beasts have?


Features: A magical beast has the following features.
—10-sided Hit Dice.
—Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
—Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.

Now I can see why they didn't give the Totemist Full BAB and a d10 hitdie, but I really feel that they should have given them one or the other. Plus having a higher BAB opens up more attacks and options.

[Nifft]

Now I can see why they didn't give the Totemist Full BAB and a d10 hitdie, but I really feel that they should have given them one or the other. Plus having a higher BAB opens up more attacks and options.

I love the idea of using Magical Beast HD features to beef up the lackluster Totemist chassis.

You would need to find something else to give Shifters, of course.

[eggynack]

As Cosi said. But also because the Totemist is supposed to emulate Magical Beasts, and what do magical beasts have?

Now I can see why they didn't give the Totemist Full BAB and a d10 hitdie, but I really feel that they should have given them one or the other. Plus having a higher BAB opens up more attacks and options.
Full BAB on totemists isn't a ridiculous thing to have. I just see no reason why shifter would be the thing that grants it. Chassis changes are relatively rare on sub levels, as I recall, and they're usually pretty thematic. This strikes me as rather arbitrary. Not crazy, but arbitrary.

[PhantasyPen]

Full BAB on totemists isn't a ridiculous thing to have. I just see no reason why shifter would be the thing that grants it. Chassis changes are relatively rare on sub levels, as I recall, and they're usually pretty thematic. This strikes me as rather arbitrary. Not crazy, but arbitrary.

It seemed to be as good an opportunity as any to try out the change. If it pans out I can then afford to look into implementing it as a more general alteration. If it doesn't, then well, it's only a substitution level, and a homebrewed one at that, so it's much easier to fix.