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View Full Version : DM Help New^3: New to P&P-RPGs, new DM, new players. Advice?



terodil
2018-08-23, 08:33 AM
Good folks of the playground,

I'm in a bit of a pickle and would respectfully request aid from experienced RPG experts. What systems/games should I look at, and how can I minimise the chance of failure?

1. The Group: Tiny, complete newbies.
As a tiny group of friends (two, plus me), we've decided to try and get into pen&paper RPs. Thing is: for various IRL reasons, neither of us is able to benefit from basically great ideas such as 'join a local RP group and get some experience there'. The only one with some basic understanding of RP and RPGs is me through various PC adaptations of D&D and free-style RP in MMOs, and so I accepted the mantle of organiser/GM. I'm prepared to put substantial time into reading, learning, and set-up, though of course none of it will make up for the massive lack of experience generally expected from a GM, so any extra safety wheels on the bike would be welcome, for now at least. I'll probably be a terrible GM, I know.

2. The Setting: Not too dark, a bit humorous, preferably not too "out there", well-rounded.
As a starter setting, I'd be looking for something down-to-earth, since neither of my friends feel particularly at home in fantasy or scifi-settings (yet? both want to try). One of them is easily scared, so Lovecraftian horror is obviously out. They both like crime investigations, and I suppose some sort of modern-day city adventure with slight fantasy/scifi themes could work well. Some humour in the setting would be very welcome, though I personally would prefer it to function more as a relief, less than a leitmotif. As for the combat/social scale, I'd like to try something in the middle to see how everyone likes it: some combat, some social interaction.

3. The ruleset: Preferably easy but expandable.
I personally love complicated rules but my two friends don't have my patience, so I'd have to ease them into the system. D&D in its 3.x iteration is probably far too complicated (though I personally love it). I don't want to completely freestyle it either; there should be some sort of character creation, attributes, and dice rolls. It's supposed to be a game, after all, and not a pure 'let's tell a story together and sing kumbaya' thing.

4. Preparation
We've set a date for Christmas this year which will be our first session. I have until then to prepare. Currently my efforts have been spread all over the place, watching youtube videos from famous DMs/RP groups (Critical Role etc.), and reading GM help resources (e.g. this site, The Alexandrian). But at the moment I'm still system/setting agnostic as I don't know if we'll use some type of D&D (I suppose 3.xe is out because too complicated for beginners, maybe 5e?) or something else (I've read about some good 'generalist' systems ('Fudge'?)) and I feel I should try to start to focus.

So, dear playground, any advice? I'd be grateful for anything ranging from advice for a contains-100%-pure-noobs-group to concrete system/setting&story/media recommendations.

Thank you for your time,
T.

Geddy2112
2018-08-23, 09:29 AM
I would probably run D&D 5th edition. Classic enough to be an RPG, but very newbie friendly for those who have never touched a d20. Not too terribly hard to DM either, at least relative to 3.X. It also allows a lot of setting customization and has generic enough worlds in adventure paths.

Your friends are probably at least somewhat familiar with lord of the rings, which is a pretty good low fantasy setting. Enough to have magic and magical creatures, but nothing insane. I am not saying to run LotR word for word, but a general setting of civilized lands with some dangerous wilds. Supernatural creatures and wizards exist, but encountering them is uncommon and usually a big deal.

Stick to a general low fantasy plot, even if it is tropes on tropes. Say for instance some people have gone missing from the village along the road to other place. Players investigate, orcs and or goblins are involved, they are pawns of big bag of choice. You can cut that to a one shot if you remove the big bad and the players save the day in a session, or make it the call to adventure leading them into as deep as you wanna go. As for the tone, I would lean towards the noble and bright aspects of tone vs grim and dark. The noble/grim scale is a measure of agency; noble being one mortal can change the world and grim being that nothing you do will ever change anything. Bright vs dark has to do with the state of the world(and in visual media the literal light and darkness); in the brightest settings people rarely die of anything but old age and few things are dangerous where in the darkest entire galaxies worth of life are extinguished on the reg. Lord of the Rings is typically characterized as Noble Dark-the world is dangerous and scary but heroic action has incredible impact.

Keep in mind that in a lot of systems, level 1(or the equivalent) can be VERY swingy, meaning a single good roll can kill a PC or swing combat against their favor. Consider toning down your initial couple encounters to the point of almost impossible to be hurt by. Emaciated or insane orcs with improvised weapons and virtually no tactics, hungry dogs that will flee after a couple hits, etc. A couple of these are also good to have your players gain experience of how to combat. Make skill challenges with similar difficulty at least for the first few.

Most important is to remember to have fun. Even if you are a bad DM your friends have no point of reference, and being newbies does not mean that you all suck.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-08-23, 09:54 AM
System: D&D 5e makes a good place to start. It's simple, but more importantly it's forgiving of mistakes. 2 players is doable, but you will either have to make adjustments to the standard balance points (they're set for 4-5 players) or include a few faceless, nameless NPC followers to pad the numbers.

Suggested first campaign: The beginner box adventure (Lost Mines of Phandelver) is very well regarded and is a great place to start. You may have to tone down a few adventures (since it's sized for 4-5 players).

If you're going to home-brew a setting: Keep it simple, keep it small. You can expand later, but there's a real danger to biting off more than you can chew. 5e D&D doesn't require any particular magic items for balance.

Kyrell1978
2018-08-23, 10:02 AM
When people are first starting out as a dm, I always give them this advice "Use the published modules first." Everyone seems to want to make their own grand adventure right away and they are generally overwhelmed by the task. Run modules for a couple months first and see how that goes. Another thing that I would highly suggest is to go on Youtube and watch the "being a better dm" and the "being a better player" playlists on Dawnforgedcast. While your on Youtube, hit up Matthew Colville's "running the game" playlist. Every video in all of those is worth a watch whenever you get to them.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-08-23, 11:52 AM
I'm going to suggest Monster of the Week.

It's a game that draws inspirations from shows like Buffy. Monsters are real and you're a crew of assorted modern day odd balls that hunts them down and slays them to protect the world from their nefarious ways. It's a nice mixture between the investigation part, figuring out what the heck the monster is, what its weaknesses are, where you can find it, tracking it down, and then putting all that information to use in killing it. The mechanics are fairly easy, you roll 2d6+the appropriate mod for everything. 10+ is a success, 7-9 is a partial success, 6- is a failure and the GM does a bad thing to you.

terodil
2018-08-23, 01:52 PM
Geddy2112, PhoenixPyre, Kyrell1978, Koo: Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, I have got some very good leads and tips from what you have written. I've got a long list of stuff to read and think through now. I think I might actually head towards D&D 5e, since I'm at least a bit familiar with that system, which thankfully reduces the immensely daunting task of wrangling a campaign with no experience whatsoever at the table. I'll still have a look at what you suggested, Koo -- it's still a while till December, so plenty of time to look around.

Thanks again!

Anonymouswizard
2018-08-23, 06:08 PM
Seconding Monster of the Week.

If you're willing to go more serious, more weird, and more deadly you also can't go wrong with checking out Unknown Armies. It uses a really simple d% system and had a DIY skill system (the current edition has your core capabilities determined by the game's sanity meters, which actually works great, with skills then replacing them when appropriate). Instead of having seperate unarmed combat, investigation, comforting grieving family members, and patroling skills you can just have one Police Constable skill.

But note that while there is a lot of humour in the setting (impossible to avoid when you have cliché wizards butting heads against people channeling the power of The Woman Everybody Can Have But You) a lot of if is very serious, especially the structure and size of the Occult Underground (100 members to your organisation is considered too big to be effective, and the entire Underground realises that they have nowhere near the numbers to win if the cast gets out of the bag).

On the downside combat is deadly, especially one people start carrying firearms (one lucky hit can kill a character, and even without guns there's a 1% chance for an instant kill with every attack*), to the point that multiple spells exist with the sole purpose of reducing damage (off the top of my head Epideromancers have Still Pond, Videomancers have Laff Riot, Cinemancers have Stormtrooper Combat Training, I think Vestamancers get an 'instant Kevlar vest' spell, high level Avatars of the Mother and the Warrior can be impossible to kill in certain situations, and Avatars of the Masterlass Man have supernatural toughness as their most basic power). None of them do it in the same way, of course, because magick is very specialised and thematic, and it's usually best to just avoid fights. Don't even bother with trying to make a combat wizard, magic isn't set up for it (you might get two attack spells, which depending on your School of Adept magick range from the Cameraturge's 'I burnt your picture's eyes out, note you hurt' to the Urbanomancer's 'next time you cross the road you get hit by a bus) and unless you're packing serious, serious mojo a gun is more convenient and probably just better.

* It can just knock out a character, but only if using your bare hands.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-08-24, 12:31 PM
How 'bout the Dresden Files Accelerated Edition (https://www.amazon.com/Evil-Hat-Productions-Dresden-Accelerated/dp/1613171331)? I've used the original version of the RPG several times and greatly enjoyed it, and the Accelerated Edition has newer, more streamlined rules to be friendlier to new players.

Nifft
2018-08-24, 12:50 PM
Generic new DM advice: The PCs are going to win. Your monsters are going to die in fun ways. Losing to the PCs is fun. Believe this. You are the ultimate power, and yet you are going to mostly lose. You're like a hybrid between a god and a cheerleader.

Think like an author who is torturing your characters, where your characters are the NPCs that the PCs are going to beat. The PCs are more like a natural disaster -- nothing can be done to alter their course, and very little can stand in their way.

On the other hand, you also want to relentlessly apply the easily-foreseeable consequences of the PCs' own actions. Doing that has earned me more player engagement than any of my own original plots.

Don't prepare plot outcomes -- prepare NPC motivations, and a few actions which each of the NPCs plan to take. Then expect that the actions will get disrupted by the PCs. Don't spend too much time planning specific contingencies -- just prep NPC motivations, and some reasonable resources. When the PCs do something unexpected (which will happen often), let the NPCs react according to their motivations & available resources.


Engage your players in building your setting or populating the local corner of the published setting you're using. The Dresden Files RPG mentioned above has a "city building session" chapter which I've stole and applied to basically every system over the last 10 years or so. It's very useful as both inspiration and a hook for initial player engagement.

Lapak
2018-08-24, 01:37 PM
I actually like Dungeon World for newbie groups. It has a stripped-down mechanical side that gets people started easily but still has some satisfying tactical options, which is nice, but the big thing for me that helps in new-to-RPG groups is that it has rules for basic concepts that promote good play.

Bonds, for example: part of character creation is picking another PC and defining your existing relationship - "I trust CHARNAME because they saved my life in a bandit raid," or "I am concerned that WIZARD'S meddling with forces man was not meant to understand will lead us to grief" or "I first encountered RANGER when I was in the shape of a deer and he was out hunting, which makes us both edgy about where we stand." Making sure the party has reasons to BE a party is one of the things that helps a game last, but few games have mechanics and rewards for it.

Anonymouswizard
2018-08-24, 03:04 PM
Going through my RPG collection, another game that might fit.

Victoriana: Do you like steampunk, magic, or intrigue? It's essentially 'D&D-style fantasy, but in Victorian England' and works really well. Bare in mind that the setting has a split between subspecies/ethnicity/class, the most respected combination being the Eldren (elf) English Nobility, with 'not from around here' being an actual disadvantage you can take (unless you're an orc, they all have it). Both steampunk technology and magic exist, but on a lower level than many fantasy settings (think early D&D spell levels). The core system is fairly simple, roll (stat+skill) d6s counting every 1 or 6 as a success with 6s exploding (letting you roll another die), generally two successes to do whatever you were trying to do (just one for some things like combat). Modifiers never reduce your dice pool, positive modifiers add normal dice while anything that makes it harder adds 'black' dice which subtract successes on a 1 or 6.

Other subsystems are relatively normal for the industry.

It's a great system and setting for both police investigations (one of the suggested PC organisations is the magic-focused branch of the Metropolitan Police) and high society intrigue. Potentially both at once.

Lacco
2018-08-24, 03:37 PM
I will not suggest a system - mostly because the system I prefer is quite rules-heavy and unless you love realistic combat, there is not much speaking for its use. Although, you not being used to D&D-like systems would most probably be able to get into it (if you want to try, here are the quickstart rules (https://web.archive.org/web/20130524120628/http://www.driftwoodpublishing.com/support/trosqs.zip)).

What I will suggest is: keep it simple. For your first game, enclosed area is your friend. Prepare a situation, in which the players don't really have the freedom to go anywhere and have to solve the issues you set for them before they can leave.

An abandoned (?) cabin in the woods during snowstorm.

A moving train.

Hotel complex under siege.

Abandoned wayside inn during a heavy storm.

Normally I give the players as much freedom as possible, but for first game - before I know the system and am familiar with its use - I always keep the players confined. That way I can really focus on details, descriptions, rules and prepare everything I know they will need without fear of them just going somewhere else (which may happen easily if you give the a city to explore...).

It makes preparations easier.

EDIT: also, welcome among the GMs! :smallsmile:

terodil
2018-08-24, 08:40 PM
Wow, so much input, muchas gracias to everybody!


Seconding Monster of the Week.

If you're willing to go more serious, more weird, and more deadly you also can't go wrong with checking out Unknown Armies. [...] On the downside combat is deadly [...]

Monster of the Week is definitely on the Plan B list. Unknown armies... I'm not sure. It seems to be very unforgiving in one of the areas that I did want to include, and might therefore also be better on list B or possibly C.


Victoriana: Do you like steampunk, magic, or intrigue? [...] It's a great system and setting for both police investigations (one of the suggested PC organisations is the magic-focused branch of the Metropolitan Police) and high society intrigue. Potentially both at once.

This sounds great! I'll definitely look into this as this might be just up our alley, thematically at least. Unfortunately there's always the complication of trying to find that stuff in our language as I'm the only one comfortable enough with English =/ (WTB Babelfish)


I actually like Dungeon World for newbie groups. It has a stripped-down mechanical side that gets people started easily but still has some satisfying tactical options, which is nice, but the big thing for me that helps in new-to-RPG groups is that it has rules for basic concepts that promote good play. [...]

Thank you for this tip, as well. I'm currently compiling a list of dos, don'ts and best practices, and as you say, this applies to pretty much every RPG. I'm going to have a look, but even if we don't pick this system, there's bound to be plenty of advice for my group and me to avoid common beginner pitfalls.


Generic new DM advice: The PCs are going to win. Your monsters are going to die in fun ways. Losing to the PCs is fun. Believe this. You are the ultimate power, and yet you are going to mostly lose. You're like a hybrid between a god and a cheerleader. [...] The PCs are more like a natural disaster [...]

Haha, Nifft, this was brilliant. Thank you for your post! I like your motivation-based approach a lot, but I'm a bit scared that it'll take a fair bit of practice on my part to work well. The thing that has me worried most is probably the danger of becoming an overbearing GM when it comes to 'easily-foreseeable consequences of the PC's own actions', as you write. This forum especially seems to view such stuff terribly harshly; a recent example was the thread where a GM had a player fight an entire viking village after said player demanded far more than their fair share of loot and headbutted the village chieftain... that sounded like something I would probably have done, too, because it seems intrinsically consistent to me... but people here called thunder and plague down on the GM for ruining player agency... (?!)


[...] What I will suggest is: keep it simple. For your first game, enclosed area is your friend. Prepare a situation, in which the players don't really have the freedom to go anywhere and have to solve the issues you set for them before they can leave. [...]

This sounds like very good advice, thank you also for the examples. I'm currently tempted to just run an example module before coming up with my own, but for said christmas session I'm probably going to have exactly such a setting to ease us all into whatever system we settle on.


EDIT: also, welcome among the GMs! :smallsmile:

Thank you! I'm slightly less terrified now, though I cannot shake the feeling that this just means I'll get my head bitten off all the faster...

Mechalich
2018-08-24, 10:11 PM
1. The Group: Tiny, complete newbies.
As a tiny group of friends (two, plus me),

Two players is a very small group. It makes things more difficult in general, especially when the players are new. D&D, and combat-heavy RPGs generally, have problems with particularly small groups due to the way the action economy works, making this particularly problematic there, but it can be trouble in any system. I'd suggest adding some NPC support in order to mitigate this issue (in D&D style games a taciturn cleric to serve as a healbot is ideal). Also, be prepared to talk a bunch and have to fill the silence with only two players.

Knaight
2018-08-24, 11:34 PM
2. The Setting: Not too dark, a bit humorous, preferably not too "out there", well-rounded.
As a starter setting, I'd be looking for something down-to-earth, since neither of my friends feel particularly at home in fantasy or scifi-settings (yet? both want to try). One of them is easily scared, so Lovecraftian horror is obviously out. They both like crime investigations, and I suppose some sort of modern-day city adventure with slight fantasy/scifi themes could work well.

How do you like pulp action? Think Indiana Jones, King Kong, The Mummy, Zorro - do any of these appeal?

If so I've got a system for you. It has some fantasy elements, but it's toned down compared to something like D&D, and being set in and around the 1930's adds to the familiarity - and mechanically it's a very solid but not particularly showy system, that just quietly works without being too complicated, but without a great deal of mechanical flash (though the way it quietly works does impart flash to the in game fiction). There's also a set of four starter modules that can feed into each other, which is enough material to get into the swing of things.

Take a look at Hollow Earth Expedition (https://www.exilegames.com/index.php/products/product/17-hollow-earth-expedition-core-rulebook-6-x9). The description front loads the weirder parts of the setting, but you can absolutely use it for the much more conventional, which the four module book (https://www.exilegames.com/index.php/products/product/4-perils-of-the-surface-world) does.


Two players is a very small group. It makes things more difficult in general, especially when the players are new. D&D, and combat-heavy RPGs generally, have problems with particularly small groups due to the way the action economy works, making this particularly problematic there, but it can be trouble in any system.

I'd actually push back on this - plenty of systems work exceptionally well with smaller groups, and there's a lot of material that a group of two players can cover that doesn't translate up well, genre wise. There's buddy cop games (always fun), master and apprentice games, romances (though this is playing with fire), etc.

Nifft
2018-08-25, 10:47 AM
Haha, Nifft, this was brilliant. Thank you for your post! I like your motivation-based approach a lot, but I'm a bit scared that it'll take a fair bit of practice on my part to work well. The thing that has me worried most is probably the danger of becoming an overbearing GM when it comes to 'easily-foreseeable consequences of the PC's own actions', as you write. This forum especially seems to view such stuff terribly harshly; a recent example was the thread where a GM had a player fight an entire viking village after said player demanded far more than their fair share of loot and headbutted the village chieftain... that sounded like something I would probably have done, too, because it seems intrinsically consistent to me... but people here called thunder and plague down on the GM for ruining player agency... (?!)

Over-preparation is an excellent way to compensate for inexperience -- so when you over-prepare, just also prep motivations, and if your other preparations turn out to be invalid, at least you'll have a foundation to improvise upon. Eventually you may get to the point that you mostly improvise, and at that point I expect the habit of prepping motivations will serve you well -- but it's useful even when you don't expect to need it.

I guess the other part is to never rely on PCs to do any particular thing. If you've got a plot which starts with "the PC does X, and..." then re-think that plot. That sort of thing works in books and movies because movies and books aren't improv.


Regarding "easily-foreseeable consequences": as long as you're doing the other stuff that I discuss, including coming at the PCs from the perspective of a hybrid God-Cheerleader abomination, and as long as you're fairly arbitrating the results of their actions (both positive and negative), then there's no conflict between agency and consequences. I'd even argue that removing consequences also removes agency. The PCs experiencing trouble that the players created with their own hands is 100% player agency.

The universe must behave in plausible ways. That's an absolute requirement for the game to happen. So don't be vindictive when the PCs derail your plots, but also don't be merciful when the PCs step in liquid magma. Be relentlessly fair. The verisimilitude that is the bedrock of the universe demands relentless fairness.


Oh, and one extra thing: don't leave your players in a narrative desert. Players must be informed or they're not making informed choices.


"You're in a dark wasteland. There's nothing around you. Which way do you go?" <-- bad

That's not a player choice. It's technically a free choice for the PC, but there's not enough information provided to make any sort of reasoned decision. Players forced to make that choice might as well just roll dice.


"You're on a broad dirt road running east-west through a dark wasteland. Towards the east you see a bird gliding high before diving down. Perhaps there's water in that direction. Towards the west you see three spires of smoke rising, bent like reeds by the wind before being torn into cottony shreds. Perhaps there's a settlement in that direction. To the north stand mountains, bright peaks shining white at the horizon. To the south there's nothing but sage brush and occasional animal tracks. Which way do you go?" <-- not bad

The choices are not fully informed, but that's okay. There's enough to make an informed decision. Players will often be forced to act on partial information. As long as you're fair, this is okay.


Anyway, hope your group enjoys good games.

terodil
2018-08-31, 07:45 AM
Hi again, folks. Thank you all again for your valuable input! Unfortunately, the language seems to be a bigger obstacle than I anticipated (I really would not have thought that so few of the English materials would make it to the German market...), so a few of the very interesting suggestions you made unfortunately had to be tossed out for now, though I'm sure I'll revisit them once we get a bit of experience under our belts and basic game mechanics are nailed down.

I've used the time to go through the Phandelver starter set. I like most of the ideas in there, at least to get our toes wet, although the material is quite messy in places and could do with a make-over to bring more structure into it (especially the rules part is all over the place. Attack rolls and damage rolls in different chapters?!).

One thing I'd like to request (ideally concrete) guidance for: As you know, our group will be very small compared to the target group this module was designed for (2 complete newbies vs. a group of 4-5 players), and for our first adventure I definitely want to reduce the chance of a TPK to near-zero ("story-mode"). With some circum- and introspection I have come up with a few ways to achieve this: Which would you choose? Or would you do something else?

1- Nerf NPCs: Lower their attributes and special abilities, though by how much I have no idea. I don't really like this option as I believe something called a spade should be a spade and not a transmogrified toothpick (for example, I'm uncomfortable with nerfing the beholder to an oversized football, but unnerfed and with bad luck I'm looking at a possible TPK in round 1 -- never mind diplomatic/tricky solutions, this is just an example). Thinning the enemy herds is not a big issue for me, but some enemies are too much all by themselves already.

2- Buff PCs: Increase their attributes and special abilities. I have the same reservations about this as about nerfing NPCs, except if I do this via an item I need to find a backstory for (maybe a "belt of from zero to hero" or something suchlike). Again, though, I have no idea by how much numerically. How would I go about finding out? Sit down and create a simulation spreadsheet for a few encounters?

3- Add a PC that I'll be playing more or less as pure support. Given the adventure, I was thinking possibly the BBEG's LE drow cleric mistress who he screwed over and left for dead, who is now hel(l)-bent on destroying her uppity minion, but cannot communicate with my heroes due to the language barrier. I have to admit I'm kinda partial to this one, especially if none of my players picks the premade cleric. Whip to disarm (not documented in my starter set, is this feature even in 5e?), darkness, the odd heal and a summon monster/animate dead will probably take a lot of heat off the heroes especially in those situations where they are massively outnumbered. The danger: stealing the spotlight; she should help but not carry the group (at least it should not feel that way to them).

4- Fudge dice rolls -- no.

5- Any other ideas? I can and will make a few goblins sick, without a doubt, or drunk, or give them broken armor, but I can't tweak encounters this way too much either or it becomes a farce...

Thanks again!

Edit/PS: Assuming I do use the Drow Cleric idea, can I RP her heals as feeling slightly uncomfortable or nauseating to players (like how I imagine the Star Wars Sith Sorcerer heals ('corruption' discipline) would feel)? Or are healing spells always drawn from the power of pink unicorns eating chocolate-sprinkled donuts?

PhoenixPhyre
2018-08-31, 09:09 AM
For a group of 2, I'd add an NPC. Life Cleric makes a decent support that's simple to play and won't hog the glory. I'd have them basically be faceless/nameless/silent unless asked for their opinion.

You can fluff the healing however you wish, but I recommend doing it with visuals, not telling people how their characters feel. Some people strongly don't like being told about emotions (figuring that they're in charge of that). Tell them what they see/hear/sense, not how they feel about it.