Is this use of Craft and Profession Legal?

[gogogome]

I have a player that wants to do Craft:Substitute Material Components and Profession:Substitute Material Component Gathering.

So basically he wants to spend a week using Profession to gather something and then use a craft check to turn that something into a different thing that can be used to replace both negligible and costly material components of spells.

I can see why he wants to do this. He wants to be able to cast his precious stoneskin without resupplying in a town but instead resupplying by gathering and crafting a different thing in the wilderness.

is this legal? Or is this homebrew? If this is homebrew is there a way to modify this so it's not? I don't want to be that guy but I have a 0 tolerance for homebrew for this specific game I'm dming right now.

He also wants to do the same for magic item crafting supplies. Profession check to grab some gp worth of raw materials and then use a craft check to turn it into magic item crafting materials.

[Deophaun]

If he wants to waste his skillpoints doing that, there's no reason not to let him. It's not like he's building ships with a thousand hirelings.

[BRKNdevil]

Wouldn't his Profession Checks and Craft Checks just be using the normal "i'm making this much in raw materials thingy?" Its like half your Profession Check per Week of Work in Gold
I guess he could have Gemcrafting instead for the raw Diamond of at least 1000gp worth by using Profession to get raw materials. Pay 1/3 raw materials cost (10,000sp so... 3,333sp and change) Lets say High Quality item so DC 15. After that he Roles Craft, if he exceeds 15 he Multiplies his Result by the DC for the amount of work he does in a Week. so... a cumulative roll of 667 over several weeks of work for one damn diamond

[BRKNdevil]

Leadership and he Runs a Massive Store Chain whose profits go into his Component Costs. Its the only logical way to go about it

[inuyasha]

That's a pretty niche skill, so I'd allow it on the condition that he comes up with a proper name and explanation for it in-game. "Substitute Material Component Gatherer" is a pretty lame job title.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Alternative spell components existing at DM discretion is RAW, I've never seen a hard rule on how to identify them as a character. I would assume it would just be a spell craft check to ask.

The profession check to get inconsequential materials is a waste as they are generally assumed to be refreshed unless the party is in a truly baren environment. Craft alternative components for the costly ones is silly and would grant disjointed and diverse abilities; carving, sculpting, cooking, taxedermy, etc exclusively for useful spell components. There are suggestions for themed casting in the DMG which open the door to having all components coming from a single craft skill for a particular caster. Dibs on basket mage.

Either nix alternative components or allow them to exist and be identified through spellcraft this can include crafted items.

[gogogome]

Alternative spell components existing at DM discretion is RAW, I've never seen a hard rule on how to identify them as a character. I would assume it would just be a spell craft check to ask.

Where is this RAW? I'd like to give it a read.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There is already something like that: Primal Essence (CM).
It's basically a universal material component that can replace any other material component, though only in 100cp increments.
Iirc it's gathered on the ethereal plane, so if he wants to he could plane shift there and go look, which would probably be a survival, know:arcana or spellcraft check. Or several of those together, who knows?

Alternatively tell him to learn Heart of Earth (CM) and to stop wasting gold on casting Stoneskin.

[Nifft]

I have a player that wants to do Craft:Substitute Material Components and Profession:Substitute Material Component Gathering.

So basically he wants to spend a week using Profession to gather something and then use a craft check to turn that something into a different thing that can be used to replace both negligible and costly material components of spells.

I can see why he wants to do this. He wants to be able to cast his precious stoneskin without resupplying in a town but instead resupplying by gathering and crafting a different thing in the wilderness.

is this legal? Or is this homebrew? If this is homebrew is there a way to modify this so it's not? I don't want to be that guy but I have a 0 tolerance for homebrew for this specific game I'm dming right now.

He also wants to do the same for magic item crafting supplies. Profession check to grab some gp worth of raw materials and then use a craft check to turn it into magic item crafting materials.

That's not even as high as homebrew, it's just plain illegal -- and also kinda dumb.

At the level where stoneskin should be a daily tactic, 100 gp isn't that much gold. The PC needs to stock up in town. Between towns, the PC might be able to lesser planar bind some kind of earth elemental critter to go find diamonds, then grind them up -- paying the critter roughly the value of the diamonds in some currency that's relatively more valuable for the critter, perhaps something like delicious magical steel.

It's especially dumb if you as the DM allow the heart of earth spell, which is 100% official and provides a no-cost low-duration stoneskin effect on demand.

[gogogome]

There is already something like that: Primal Essence (CM).
It's basically a universal material component that can replace any other material component, though only in 100cp increments.
Iirc it's gathered on the ethereal plane, so if he wants to he could plane shift there and go look, which would probably be a survival, know:arcana or spellcraft check. Or several of those together, who knows?

Alternatively tell him to learn Heart of Earth (CM) and to stop wasting gold on casting Stoneskin.

Ok, this is enough for me to say no on the matter.

I will let him get profession:primal essence gatherer and use it on the ethereal plane if he can get there but that's as far as I'll allow it.

As for magic item creation, the only profession and craft check i will allow is scribe scroll because it explicitly states you just need choice writing materials, which are mundane. All other magical items say you need a supply of materials, which are probably magical in nature.

[zlefin]

Those don't seem like appropriate subcategories for craft/profession; but I'd be fine with someone doing stuff like that in general, using suitable subcategories. The rate at which those skills can accumulate the requisite materials is quite weak, so I'm not sure it'd be all that helpful unless you have tons of downtime.

[Deophaun]

As for magic item creation, the only profession and craft check i will allow is scribe scroll because it explicitly states you just need choice writing materials, which are mundane. All other magical items say you need a supply of materials, which are probably magical in nature.
Today's word of the day is fungible


Definition of fungible
1 : being something (such as money or a commodity) of such a nature that one part or quantity may be replaced by another equal part or quantity in paying a debt or settling an account Oil, wheat, and lumber are fungible commodities. fungible goods
2 : capable of mutual substitution : interchangeable
… the court's postulate that male and female jurors must be regarded as fungible —George Will
3 : readily changeable to adapt to new situations : flexible
Gold made with Craft (Whatever) is just as valuable and usable as gold made with Craft (Whatsits).

"But, Deophaun," the voice in my head says, "don't you lose gold if you have to sell what you make instead of using it directly?"

No, voice in my head; not if you pick a craft skill that makes art objects or trade goods, such as gemcutting, sculpture, or composition. Because art objects trade at full value. If you craft 1650 gp of gems and want to use that to buy some masterwork full-plate, you trade that in on a 1:1 basis because gems, being art objects, are as good as gold. It's as if you crafted 1650 gp of armor in that time.

Because of this, there is zero reason to limit choices when it comes to the Craft skill, because in truth there are really only two choices: sculpture and composition. Composition grants you the highest single-check rate of return due to not using the 1/3rd material rule, while sculpture lets you build the Colossus of Rhodes, using as many hirelings as you want to Aid Another and boost your DC into the stratosphere for breaking WBL. Anything else is taken for RP purposes only (or because of some PrC prerequisite; no, making golems falls under RP).

[daremetoidareyo]

Because of this, there is zero reason to limit choices when it comes to the Craft skill, because in truth there are really only two choices: sculpture and composition. Composition grants you the highest single-check rate of return due to not using the 1/3rd material rule, while sculpture lets you build the Colossus of Rhodes, using as many hirelings as you want to Aid Another and boost your DC into the stratosphere for breaking WBL. Anything else is taken for RP purposes only (or because of some PrC prerequisite; no, making golems falls under RP).

You got references for those?

[Nifft]

I can see why he wants to do this. He wants to be able to cast his precious stoneskin without resupplying in a town but instead resupplying by gathering and crafting a different thing in the wilderness.


Today's word of the day is fungible


Gold made with Craft (Whatever) is just as valuable and usable as gold made with Craft (Whatsits).

"But, Deophaun," the voice in my head says, "don't you lose gold if you have to sell what you make instead of using it directly?"

No, voice in my head; not if you pick a craft skill that makes art objects or trade goods, such as gemcutting, sculpture, or composition. Because art objects trade at full value. If you craft 1650 gp of gems and want to use that to buy some masterwork full-plate, you trade that in on a 1:1 basis because gems, being art objects, are as good as gold. It's as if you crafted 1650 gp of armor in that time.

Because of this, there is zero reason to limit choices when it comes to the Craft skill, because in truth there are really only two choices: sculpture and composition. Composition grants you the highest single-check rate of return due to not using the 1/3rd material rule, while sculpture lets you build the Colossus of Rhodes, using as many hirelings as you want to Aid Another and boost your DC into the stratosphere for breaking WBL. Anything else is taken for RP purposes only (or because of some PrC prerequisite; no, making golems falls under RP).

@Deophaun -- all of what you say is contingent upon GP being fungible relative to components that are priced in GP.

In other words, you require that the PC exist in a situation whereby gold can be exchanged for good and services, and that's not the situation under debate.

So even if you were correct -- and when real DMs are relevant, you're not correct -- what you're saying would still be inapplicable to the discussion.

[Deophaun]

You got references for those?
For what? Sculpture is core. Composition is Races of Stone.

In other words, you require that the PC exist in a situation whereby gold can be exchanged for good and services, and that's not the situation under debate.
The situation is asking for legality. If the conditions that you lay out are not part of the discussion, then the legality should also not be under discussion. Hence, it is the situation under debate.

So even if you were correct -- and when real DMs are relevant, you're not correct -- what you're saying would still be inapplicable to the discussion.
Troll is on page 247 of the MM.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Where is this RAW? I'd like to give it a read.

If you're still interested I'll bring books to work tomorrow and try to find a reference.

[Nifft]

For what? Sculpture is core. Composition is Races of Stone.

The situation is asking for legality. If the conditions that you lay out are not part of the discussion, then the legality should also not be under discussion. Hence, it is the situation under debate.

Troll is on page 247 of the MM.

Again, this is specifically for not-in-town, not-able-to-funge GP situations. What you're discussing requires exchanging GP for components, which makes your advice irrelevant (even if it were legal).

Also, note that calling someone a troll is a major infraction (under "Flaming") in the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1). The fact that you're wrong is not an excuse to violate the forum rules.

[RoboEmperor]

As for magic item creation, the only profession and craft check i will allow is scribe scroll because it explicitly states you just need choice writing materials, which are mundane. All other magical items say you need a supply of materials, which are probably magical in nature.

That is... reasonable... hmm...

I think I might do that in this character i'm building. Profession:Raw Material Gatherer, Craft:Paper, and Craft:Ink

[gogogome]

If you're still interested I'll bring books to work tomorrow and try to find a reference.

I am interested and I would like that. Thanks.

[gogogome]

That is... reasonable... hmm...

I think I might do that in this character i'm building. Profession:Raw Material Gatherer, Craft:Paper, and Craft:Ink

Phantom Ink and Vanishing Ink are made by Craft Alchemy so normal ink should be too.

[Deophaun]

Again, this is specifically for not-in-town, not-able-to-funge GP situations.
We are talking about Craft (Craft Wondrous Items/Craft Magic Arms and Armor/Craft Ring). Not Craft (Material Components). The timescale to generate enough gold to make even 1st-level wands is measured in months. By the time you have enough ranks to do that in weeks, you can teleport.

Now, stop being wrong.

[gogogome]

We are talking about Craft (Craft Wondrous Items/Craft Magic Arms and Armor/Craft Ring). Not Craft (Material Components). The timescale to generate enough gold to make even 1st-level wands is measured in months. By the time you have enough ranks to do that in weeks, you can teleport.

Now, stop being wrong.

He's not wrong. This player wants to create material components and magic items all in the wild with 0 interaction with civilization.

[Mike Miller]

There are also power components (I think that is what they are called). Various items replace expensive material components and xp. Dragon magazine has at least one article for replacing components with other things. I remember one article is all about dragon parts. I feel like another article had a variety of things like demon parts.

[Segev]

Yeah, lesser planar binding should be able to call up beings that are willing and able to do your shopping for you if you can't be bothered/can't make it. A Lantern Archon is particularly good for this, as long as you supply it with a satchel to store stuff in; it has greater teleport (self only) at will. You can even streamline it if you treat it well and develop a working relationship so that it's willing to be called by name and agree to a fairly standard "do my shopping, here's a list" binding in return for reasonable compensation. It essentially becomes an ally you call up regularly, and who might occasionally ask you for help with some things in return. Extremely reasonable use of that spell, and good RP to boot.

Also, the comments on craft:gemcutting makes me realize that you get a 10,000 gp gem by starting with one that's worth approximately 3,333 gp and using your Craft skill on it!

[sleepyphoenixx]

Also, the comments on craft:gemcutting makes me realize that you get a 10,000 gp gem by starting with one that's worth approximately 3,333 gp and using your Craft skill on it!
Which sounds really broken until you realize that it'll take even an optimized crafter several months to actually do it.
Well, unless you're using Fabricate, but even then it's no more broken than Wall of Salt/Iron.

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah, lesser planar binding should be able to call up beings that are willing and able to do your shopping for you if you can't be bothered/can't make it. A Lantern Archon is particularly good for this, as long as you supply it with a satchel to store stuff in; it has greater teleport (self only) at will. You can even streamline it if you treat it well and develop a working relationship so that it's willing to be called by name and agree to a fairly standard "do my shopping, here's a list" binding in return for reasonable compensation. It essentially becomes an ally you call up regularly, and who might occasionally ask you for help with some things in return. Extremely reasonable use of that spell, and good RP to boot.

Also, the comments on craft:gemcutting makes me realize that you get a 10,000 gp gem by starting with one that's worth approximately 3,333 gp and using your Craft skill on it!

I always thought the Mercane was the best outsider for this, but I think you proved me wrong.

Don't do the gem thing. "I cast fabricate on this 1gp gem to create a 3gp gem. I cast fabricate on this 3gp gem to create a 9gp gem. I cast fabricate on this 9gp gem to create a 27gp gem" ... "I cast fabricate on this 531,441gp gem to create a 1,594,323gp gem. Now I sell it for 2 rods of excellent magic!"

[Deophaun]

He's not wrong. This player wants to create material components and magic items all in the wild with 0 interaction with civilization.
He is wrong, because of this:

Anything else is taken for RP purposes only (or because of some PrC prerequisite; no, making golems falls under RP).
The player is taking this for RP purposes. Or are you imposing the "cannot go to civilization at any point for decades" rule on the character to make this worthwhile?

[gogogome]

He is wrong, because of this:

The player is taking this for RP purposes. Or are you imposing the "cannot go to civilization at any point for decades" rule on the character to make this worthwhile?

He wants the option to be able to craft items if for some reason he is cut off of civilization like being dropped in the middle of the abyss or he's an internationally wanted criminal, or he wants to be some kind of mysterious man in the woods who crafts powerful magic weapons. So i guess it is RP purpose.

[daremetoidareyo]

I know that this sounds like a lot of work, but magic item Creation in 2nd edition, in the dungeon Master's handbook, had a big write-up about magic item creation. It had all sorts of weird requirements that would require adventuring to assemble the component pieces to make magic items with.

It seems like your player wants an item crafting mini game. I would ask the playground where they can find the power component rules because I forget. The player can use his profession skill to find or identify opportunities to harvest those.

You can make a small chart with GP costs and use the craft skill to add rider benefits to them.

Then, for magic item creation, steal those 2nd Edition rules. If he wants to make a dragon Bane sword he has to quench that blade in Dragon blood during the forging process. Queue dragonslaying miniquest. Satisfying those requirements could be treated as crafting costs. He can use his profession skill to research and identify what the questlike ingredients are to make a specific item. Sometimes an ingredient will be to find and bottle without harming, a butterfly in the winter (item of endure elements) and sometimes it will be a ritual of calm with fey spirits.

And if you leave the quests a little bit cryptic, sometimes the players will be really creative to satisfy them in the most simple way. "you said feather of a flying horse, a slowly levitating polymorphed into a bird horse totally counts!" Touche, player.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think it's completely reasonable to let Survival, Profession (Arcane Laborant), Craft (Alchemy) and so on produce the materials you need for casting spells and crafting magic items. The amount of time it takes to gather the thousand GP it takes to craft a +1 sword would be quite big, so I'm not sure why you'd want to, but I'd allow it. It's exactly the same as using any other Craft or Profession skill to earn GP, i.e. a total waste of time, but great fluff.

For reference, you earn money at the following rates:
Craft: One-half your check result in GP per week, working eight hours a day. With a +10 bonus to Craft, you can earn 10 gp per week, extending the usual crafting time of a +1 sword from two days to a cool four years. But it's free!
Profession: One-half your check result in GP per week, working eight hours a day.
Survival: Usually, none, but if you make, say, a DC 20 check, you provide enough food for six people, and you might be able to sell the surplus. A day's worth of common-quality food costs 3 sp (poor quality: 1 sp, good quality: 5 sp), so assuming you run a food store, you'd earn 15 sp per day for a DC 20 check, or 10.5 gp per week, which is nicely in line with DC 20 Craft/Profession checks. It's nice when the numbers work out.

Allowing Survival to gather components is a nod to the many strange and wonderful bugs, fungi, rocks, roots, and so on that could be used in spellcasting and magic item crafting.

[Nifft]

He's not wrong. This player wants to create material components and magic items all in the wild with 0 interaction with civilization.


He is wrong, because of this:

The player is taking this for RP purposes. Or are you imposing the "cannot go to civilization at any point for decades" rule on the character to make this worthwhile?

Deophaun, when the thread's OP tells you that you're wrong about what the OP means, then you might want to listen.

Denial of reality has rhetorical limits, and I'm afraid you've just smacked into one.



And if you leave the quests a little bit cryptic, sometimes the players will be really creative to satisfy them in the most simple way. "you said feather of a flying horse, a slowly levitating polymorphed into a bird horse totally counts!" Touche, player. D&D casters have a wide array of buttons which they can press to win scenarios.

The idea of obscure components is to force the players to stop navel-gazing and interact with the world to get those obscure components.

Your "creative" example is just a player mashing one of the well-worn buttons instead of interacting with the world -- it's sort of a screw-you bird-flip to the idea of caring about the world at all, since the Wizard is entirely self-sufficient.

Honestly I'd call that reductive rather than creative, since it reduces the DM's new scenario to a well-known solution.



I think it's completely reasonable to let Survival, Profession (Arcane Laborant), Craft (Alchemy) and so on produce the materials you need for casting spells and crafting magic items. The amount of time it takes to gather the thousand GP it takes to craft a +1 sword would be quite big, so I'm not sure why you'd want to, but I'd allow it. It's exactly the same as using any other Craft or Profession skill to earn GP, i.e. a total waste of time, but great fluff.
(...)
Allowing Survival to gather components is a nod to the many strange and wonderful bugs, fungi, rocks, roots, and so on that could be used in spellcasting and magic item crafting. For magic items which have no specific components, that seems like it could be viable, though I think there are better solutions -- magical locations and monster-parts-as-loot being the two main ones I've seen elsewhere.

But speaking to the topic of the thread, how many mushrooms do you need to replicate 100 gp of diamond dust (a specific spell component for stoneskin)?

[blackwindbears]

I have a player that wants to do Craft:Substitute Material Components and Profession:Substitute Material Component Gathering.

So basically he wants to spend a week using Profession to gather something and then use a craft check to turn that something into a different thing that can be used to replace both negligible and costly material components of spells.

I can see why he wants to do this. He wants to be able to cast his precious stoneskin without resupplying in a town but instead resupplying by gathering and crafting a different thing in the wilderness.

is this legal? Or is this homebrew? If this is homebrew is there a way to modify this so it's not? I don't want to be that guy but I have a 0 tolerance for homebrew for this specific game I'm dming right now.

He also wants to do the same for magic item crafting supplies. Profession check to grab some gp worth of raw materials and then use a craft check to turn it into magic item crafting materials.

Well, honestly, sounds fun. But the amount of downtime required is really significant. Look up the crafting rules, it'd take friggin' forever.

You need 250 gp of diamond dust for stoneskin. So let's say you get 2/3rds off. Let's say the DC is 15 and the typical check result is 30. It'd take like 5-6 *weeks* to finish. Once every month and a half he gets to cast stoneskin for cheap. Someone call the balance police.

Maybe if he starts asking for items that give him big bonuses to the check or something weird. I don't know, if he's interested and a sorcerer just hand him Eschew materials, doesn't work for expensive material components but it ain't gonna wreck your game.

Is he some kind of crazy optimizer? Is he always trying to get into prestige classes early with BS entries?

If not he probably just thinks he's creating a fun minigame for himself, lean into it. It'll be fun. I probably wouldn't make him waste skill points on the gather material components, just throw them up when he makes search checks from time to time.

[Fouredged Sword]

Why not just carry 1 diamond and cast fabricate to turn it into 2 diamonds. Start with a 1gp diamond and cast fabricate until it is the required value. Then cast fabricate to duplicate it.

Just cast skill boosting spells to get the craft check requirements.

[RoboEmperor]

Why not just carry 1 diamond and cast fabricate to turn it into 2 diamonds. Start with a 1gp diamond and cast fabricate until it is the required value. Then cast fabricate to duplicate it.

Just cast skill boosting spells to get the craft check requirements.

That use of fabricate is RAW abuse and it breaks wealth by level which breaks the game which is why virtually all DMs in their right mind would never allow that use of fabricate.