Thought Experiment A Dragonfire Adept in A Song of Ice and Fire"

[GrayDeath]

The Title says it all..

The Facts are as follows: You are a Human Dragonfire Adept, no other CLasses, no cheese, no magical Equipment whatsoever except the one you have when you start (with Level 4) your "Dance with Dragons", no D&Desque "RAW Arguments" or "But there is nothing in the rules against..." stuff (Examples include using COrpses or Cheap loot for crafting expenses, and similar stuff, no way to access any other planes etc while there.

Addendum: Of course anything requiring specific Places, Organizations, Gods etc not present in ASoIaF does NOT work either.

You enter the World knowing the common language spoken in Westeros, that it will be impossible to get out for quite some time, and knowing it is lower magic than your world.
You get a very short History summarization.
Nothing else.

You are Level 4 when you enter. Facing CHallenges gives X normally, XP Costs stay the same.

You enter 1d3+2 Weeks before King Roberts Arrival at Winterfell at a random Place between Kings Landing and Winterfell.

All Official Sources are in, but see above. ^^

WHat does a Dragonfire Adept need to do/Skill/avoid and how high Level does he need to be to completely dominate Westeros up until (and ideally beyond) facing The Others"?

WHat would you do right after arriving/when Stuff happens" and why?


Discuss!

[PhantasyPen]

Well for a start, cheesing your diplomancy skills and invocations seems critical, however you'll need to make sure that if you use magic you leave No Witnesses(tm) I would think...

[Segev]

The Humanoid Form Invocation would be amazing in this setting. Be anybody!

[One Step Two]

If there's only 1 magic item that could be taken, I would doubly recommend a Ring of Sustenance. It's not the most powerful magic item, but it's the most practical, only having to sleep for 2 hours a day can be a lifesaver. However, a Healing belt is well within WBL for a 4th level character as well.

If the build has some room to be customization, the following feats are a must:
City Slicker (Races of destiny): Adding Gather information, Disguise and Forgery to the class list
Ancestral Relic: This will help offset the lack of magic items.
And if possible, because all sources are on the table, Item familiar at 3rd, cheese at it's finest.

Using Beguiling Influence and draconic knowledge, it's time to put those social graces to work to get the lay of the land. Due to knowing only a general history, and not what's coming forwards, the first thing to do is make my way to Old Town, show off my talent for a keen mind and great charisma, and a forged Writ of Endorsement from a noble house of choice, to start consuming all of their lore to become a Maester.

Once the word of Real Dragons actually appearing is the moment I take a ship and ride across the Narrow sea, and impress the Mother of Dragons with my wit, knowledge, and my ability to charm her dragons (Between Beguiling Influence and Dragonkin, having a +10 to dealing with Dragons means I would make a pretty good dragon trainer, and one could argue Danerys has the Dragonblood subtype as well).

From here on out, it's time to play the role of adviser and bodyguard.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I know little to nothing of ASoIaF, but if I were to be sent to such a world with those restrictions, I'd definitely be doing this:


Since you're going in on a powerhouse game and need some feats, try Landlord, from Arms & Equipment Guide Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. Construct a tinfoil hat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?129012-How-Many-Uses-for-a-Tinfoil-Hat) large enough to fit inside, and use it for your stronghold. Start adding Landlord's resources to it in the form of magic item enhancements. Enhance it as a weapon, with morphing and sizing (and metalline, eager, and warning), so it can shift forms as a multi-use tool you can use in combat. Once you get enough effective money available, enhance it as a psychoactive skin of proteus in such a way that the above weapon effects affect your natural weapons (via the necklace of natural weapons from Savage Species, if nothing else). Then do something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook/page11&p=23285432#post23285432) with it. Add the effects of several metamagic rods, maybe some rings of wizardry -- whatever floats your boat, really.

Why a weapon, followed by the psychoactive skin and the metalline necklace of natural weapons? Imagine if your entire body counts as living adamantine. That hardness is sweeeet.Definitely adding a ring of sustenance and a Heward's fortifying bedroll to that one.

[One Step Two]

I know little to nothing of ASoIaF, but if I were to be sent to such a world with those restrictions, I'd definitely be doing this:

Definitely adding a ring of sustenance and a Heward's fortifying bedroll to that one.

Shiny! Turn that badboy skin into an Item Familiar, and the circle of cheese would be complete.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Shiny! Turn that badboy skin into an Item Familiar, and the circle of cheese would be complete.Remember, you're using Landlord to put 800,000 gp into it for free at level 20, plus whatever you put in of your own moneys.

Very, very tasty.

[One Step Two]

Remember, you're using Landlord to put 800,000 gp into it for free at level 20, plus whatever you put in of your own moneys.

Very, very tasty.

Does it count as armor to attached the "Called" property to it, so even if (somehow) stolen, you can summon it back to you?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Does it count as armor to attached the "Called" property to it, so even if (somehow) stolen, you can summon it back to you?Well, the original version calls for it to be grafted onto you as an illithid humanoid skin graft, so that's probably not necessary?

How often do people get flayed alive in ASoIaF, exactly?

Either way, pay the markup as per the rules in the MIC, and sure.

[One Step Two]

How often do people get flayed alive in ASoIaF, exactly?

There's a noble house who has a Flayed Man as their symbol that use said tactic in the book, and I imagine others would do so as well it's a brutal setting.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's a noble house who has a Flayed Man as their symbol that use said tactic in the book, and I imagine others would do so as well it's a brutal setting.Point taken.

[GrayDeath]

Guys, guys, as funny as some of the ideas are, you are overlooking the No CHeese and No WBL/Magic Items after Entry into the world limitations. ;)

Otherwise, keep it coming!

[Troacctid]

Isn't there an ASOIAF d20 system? If not, there's an issue of Dragon Magazine that covers the setting. I'm sure you could play this scenario out in a campaign.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Guys, guys, as funny as some of the ideas are, you are overlooking the No CHeese and No WBL/Magic Items after Entry into the world limitations. ;)

Otherwise, keep it coming!I'm being thrown into a potentially dangerous world with no foreknowledge and little in the way of defensive ability. This isn't cheese, it's practicality.

[Nifft]

Isn't there an ASOIAF d20 system? If not, there's an issue of Dragon Magazine that covers the setting. I'm sure you could play this scenario out in a campaign.

There is at least one! The one I know best is a lovely hardcover from Guardians of Order with a d20 system and a non-d20 system (tristat?).

The d20 system wasn't great, but the illustrations were amazing, and the non-d20 might have been good (or might not, I didn't play it).

So yeah, using the d20 version is probably viable, and the DFA is probably going to dominate the setting (as one would expect) since the d20 version is notably low-power.

[GrayDeath]

I'm being thrown into a potentially dangerous world with no foreknowledge and little in the way of defensive ability. This isn't cheese, it's practicality.


Nope; Cheese is cheese and remains Cheese. Especially if it is using stuff that DOES NOT REMAIN TRUE after being dropped (like Gold/WBL and shenannigans with it).

Now if you manage to get 800000 GP from anywhere in World. REAL GOld that is, be my guest and use that strange trick. ^^

YOu can do a LOT with regular optimization and the fact you, as a DFA, are far more supernatural than the setting. The rest has to come from brains, isntinct and luck, not using loopholes. ^^

As for the D0 Adaption: Hmmm, amy be usable, but for this exercise (if using that system) assume that nothing in the setting aside from the Others goes above Level 6ish (ergo the World is E6, you are not).

Please continue. :)

[noob]

Now if you manage to get 800000 GP from anywhere in World. REAL GOld that is, be my guest and use that strange trick. ^^
anything with a value is allowed for components for item crafting.
yes even if you started picking up corpses and souls and houses and grinding them for creating magical items it would be rules legal.

[GrayDeath]

In a D&D World, with a GM saying yes to cheese, of course.

Not in this particular case though.

To avoid such arguments I specifically called out No Cheese, no regular WBl progression and no "RAW only" Arguments int he OP.
Bolded it for Emphasis now.

[One Step Two]

In a D&D World, with a GM saying yes to cheese, of course.

Not in this particular case though.

To avoid such arguments I specifically called out No Cheese, no regular WBl progression and no "RAW only" Arguments int he OP.
Bolded it for Emphasis now.

Could you clarify the following line please:


...no magical Equipment whatsoever except the one you have when you start (with Level 4) your "Dance with Dragons".

As my post took this to interpret it as a single magical item affordable by WBL. Or is it just standard gear? And on that topic, WBL as a progression is a DMG recommendation for what an X lvl character should have. If in the course of play they dont pick up loot, or go out of their way to make more money by crafting and professions, that's a possibility too.

An entirely reasonable means to survive in an unknown land is to take those ranks in Craft (basketweaver), and sell some fine quality baskets to make your way. A character needs to eat after all.

[GrayDeath]

This means you get what youc an reasonably afford at Level 4, be it one, 2 or 7 Items.

And from your entry onward, there is nothing Guaranteed": WBL, Magic Gear or otherwise that you do not "Conquer", steal, borrow, trade or make yourself.
And again, if you do make more money or gear, no Cheese at all. So on general you WILL be underequiped. which is one of the reasons I chose Dragonfire Adept.

[noob]

This means you get what youc an reasonably afford at Level 4, be it one, 2 or 7 Items.

And from your entry onward, there is nothing Guaranteed": WBL, Magic Gear or otherwise that you do not "Conquer", steal, borrow, trade or make yourself.
And again, if you do make more money or gear, no Cheese at all. So on general you WILL be underequiped. which is one of the reasons I chose Dragonfire Adept.

I think druid is one of the classes that works the best when underequipped.
But if you think otherwise.

[GrayDeath]

I think noob wants to troll me, but if you think otherwise?

:smallannoyed:




Seriously though, whats your problem? If you do not want to contribute, dont?


To make it clear for everybody (not that I think it necessary, but it seems Iw as wrong with that already...):

A Druid is a full caster and so even without much OP WILL dominate the world, period.

Which is another obvious reason for me choosing DFA, high floor, little Item dependancy, reliably powerful, thematically fitting, not flexible Classes are rare after all.

Now could we please get back on the topic of noncheesy "What would you do/would a DFA need to do to prosper"? THanks!

[Kyrell1978]

Isn't there an ASOIAF d20 system? If not, there's an issue of Dragon Magazine that covers the setting. I'm sure you could play this scenario out in a campaign.

There is an officially licensed game, but it's a dice pool game.

[One Step Two]

Now could we please get back on the topic of noncheesy "What would you do/would a DFA need to do to prosper"? THanks!

Well, my initial post mentioned taking Item Familiar, it's a relatively well known feat that is abuse-able, so if that is considered too much cheese, drop that. Ancestral Relic is a simple way of having a moderately useful magic item you can customise with wealth, which again, if considered abuse, can be dropped too.

The rest of my post about how to do and act in ASOIF is pretty much the same, the low level invocations do a lot of heavy lifting, social grace helps a lot. And as EXP is accrued, you can put points into Speak language (A class skill for DFA!) And become a translator as well.

[iTreeby]

For the one breath effect, pick electric as it works on fire dragons and frosty undead. For feats it's hard not to justify leadership to pick up some awesome follower(s) unless it's banned. You are probably going to want to conceal your natural armor as people will assume that you have greyscale and nobody wants that. Remember to pick up some of westeroses green alchemist fire as it is probably an upgrade to the standard alchemist fire. Inevitably a red priest of rhalor will decide that you are the chosen one of prophesy, don't let them cast any spells that use your life essence as fuel but feel free to take advantage of the free resurrections if it comes up. Mercenary work is great when you can find it as it skips lots of the pesky oaths nobles will ask for. Be prepared for changeling assassins to come after you if you start rocking the boat.

[GrayDeath]

Well, my initial post mentioned taking Item Familiar, it's a relatively well known feat that is abuse-able, so if that is considered too much cheese, drop that. Ancestral Relic is a simple way of having a moderately useful magic item you can customise with wealth, which again, if considered abuse, can be dropped too.

The rest of my post about how to do and act in ASOIF is pretty much the same, the low level invocations do a lot of heavy lifting, social grace helps a lot. And as EXP is accrued, you can put points into Speak language (A class skill for DFA!) And become a translator as well.

Item Familiar would likely dance the edge of too cheesy, depending on the specifics. Ancestral Relic would not.

However, the "in Game Customization, unless the Relic itself provides that ability (dont have my books here) will not work in the World of ASoIaF, as youa rethe only thing working as D&D Rules say.

[Knaight]

There is an officially licensed game, but it's a dice pool game.

There are at least two.

That said, even if there is a d20 version that doesn't mean that the characters transfer directly. The meaning of the numbers can shift from d20 game to d20 game, as Mutants and Masterminds well shows.

[One Step Two]

Item Familiar would likely dance the edge of too cheesy, depending on the specifics. Ancestral Relic would not.

However, the "in Game Customization, unless the Relic itself provides that ability (dont have my books here) will not work in the World of ASoIaF, as youa rethe only thing working as D&D Rules say.

Ancestral Relic probably wont work, as there's not likely to be any real Hallowed or Consecrated area to use it in. But, as I said not of consequence, it and Item familiar were meant to help offset the lack of items, even without them, the aforementioned WBL appropriate items of A Ring of Sustenance, and a Healing Belt is all the DFA needs. The rest of my post still stands for what would likely be best for the DFA to do.

[Albions_Angel]

A thought.

In ASoIaF, people die easily. Single stab wounds, single arrows, single criticals, single doses of weak poisons, etc. Even major characters suffer from this. A FEW of those characters (John Snow) seem to have the Die Hard feat, but even they fall over to single or minimal wounds.

Some of them are powerful, but in a D&D context, they are all level 1. Generally they are all level 1 nobles, warriors, maybe fighters or clerics.

A level 4 DFA has 4d8 HP and a breath weapon every round. He doesnt mess around with 3 day rituals to create a shadowy assassin. He doesnt need to spend a year learning to change his face, suffering blindness in the process. He doesnt need a bunch of spies working for years.

What he NEEDS is protection from arrows somehow, because more or less anything else he is already immune to, or can survive long enough to kill everyone.

Lets put him in the situation where:

he replaces John Snow at the wall when he is betrayed. Stab one goes in. It hurts. Thats like 1d8+1 damage. Oh no! Breath weapon, cone, probably fire because nearly no one is immune in this world, ALL ATTACKERS DEAD OR FLEEING. Well that was easy.

Getting in the middle of a battle wont go well, because of arrow fire, but one on one, even the Mountain is only a level 1 barbarian. Or he was. Now hes a Corpse Creature Barbarian. Kite and breath.

People he needs to watch out for.

Arya - Arguably a level 2 or 3 Rogue. Sneak attack damage will hurt.
Deny - Shes only a noble but shes also the only char with fire resist. And she has 3 DRAKE (lets not kid ourselves that those things are dragons) companions. But you are probably allies with her anyway.
Bran - No idea what he is. A thrallherd? He seems as level 1 as everyone else physically, but he is clearly boasting level 10 abilities in divination and mind control. Stay away.

Now all of those can be dealt with but will take some thought.

People that pose a REAL threat.

The Alchemist (from the final book). He has the ability to teleport, sink people into stone, impersonate them, etc. We dont know his motives, nor the full extent of his powers. STAY AWAY.
The White Walkers. They are clearly Winterhaunts from Frostburn. That means they are at least level 15, divine spell casters, and elemental in type. Now your firebreath is useful BUT you only have 4d8 HP to their 15dWhatever. BUT in this world they have a fatal flaw. Dragonglass. Avoid for now. Later on, you can turn your attention to them.
The Children of the Forest. Gone for centuries, but clearly still around. The Old Gods. We no next to nothing about them. They worry me.

[Troacctid]

Some of them are powerful, but in a D&D context, they are all level 1. Generally they are all level 1 nobles, warriors, maybe fighters or clerics.
Most of the major characters as of the third book are statted out in Dragon Magazine, and they're not 1st level. There's even a prestige class for Ranger of the Night's Watch.


The Alchemist (from the final book). He has the ability to teleport, sink people into stone, impersonate them, etc. We dont know his motives, nor the full extent of his powers. STAY AWAY.
We do know he's Jaqen H'garr. That's something.

[Knaight]

Most of the major characters as of the third book are statted out in Dragon Magazine, and they're not 1st level. There's even a prestige class for Ranger of the Night's Watch.

You can model these chararacters as D&D characters a bunch of different ways, and all of them fail miserably somewhere (on account of them fundamentally not being D&D characters). The argument from hit points and injury supports the 1st level character hypothesis, but the idea that Jaime Lannister or Barristan Selmy are reasonably modeled as warriors by getting one attack per six seconds and +1 BAB is downright ridiculous, and they're just particularly notable examples out of lots and lots of characters where that flatly doesn't fit.

[Albions_Angel]

Nah, those 2 are Fighters with Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave and a Masterwork Weapon, dealing a potentially killing blow every 6 seconds ON AVERAGE during a fight.

The Unsullied are all warrior 1s with Weapon Focus and Phalanx Fighting.

Many of the lords are Warriors

Most of the soldiers are little more than Commoners. They have 10 Dex. They have roughly 12-15 AC. Jamie hits and kills them roughly half the time based on those numbers, which from the series, seems to be about right. These arnt level 4+ heros from DnD, capable of killing entire armies man by man, with little threat to themselves. These are regular well known soldiers who kill 10 people per battle, and who's real achievement is not dying.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I recall the more notorious warriors in the story performing some mid-level fighter feats.

But there's always the "they die like normal people, so they must all be lv 1" guy that part of the system is abstraction.

I'd absolutely get a Healing Belt as healing is hella rare in the setting, and can be crucial not only for you but also for allies.

[iTreeby]

I recall the more notorious warriors in the story performing some mid-level fighter feats.

But there's always the "they die like normal people, so they must all be lv 1" guy that part of the system is abstraction.

I'd absolutely get a Healing Belt as healing is hella rare in the setting, and can be crucial not only for you but also for allies.

Running HP as stamina solves lots of these issues but isn't really supported by things like injury poison(which exists in game of thrones).

[Nifft]

Running HP as stamina solves lots of these issues but isn't really supported by things like injury poison(which exists in game of thrones).

Wound / Vitality could model that reasonably well.

There are a number of mechanics which bypass Vitality in most systems -- for example, sometimes a critical hit is a hit which deals normal VP damage + WP damage, and a Sneak Attack may also mean VP + WP are both affected.

Then to mitigate the poison nerf (since most attacks will only hit VP and thus not apply poison damage), make it so poison remains on the weapon until something happens that could remove it -- for example: falling into water, or being subject to the intense heat of dragonfire, or being thrust right through the torso of a Dornishman.