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View Full Version : Durkon, Hilgya, Hel and the future



sage12
2018-08-23, 09:53 PM
So let's assume the current arc ends somewhat the way most people seem to expect it now - that being, Durkon comes back as entirely Durkon and none of the relevant personae dies (Durkon, Hilgya, Kudzu, potentially Durkon's mother):
HOW will Durkon and Hilgya deal with their newfound common responsibility for little Kudzu? Hilgya has so far been setting him up on a course that not only is contrary to everything Durkon believes in, but also potentially sets him up for an eternity in Hel's clutches. Unless her convinced, but not entirely convincing trust in a god of trickery is justified, that is. What will Durkon do about this? Saving people from Hel through personal sacrifice is one dilemma - saving them (potentially) against the wishes of their mother an entirely different one. And that's without considering Kudzu's afterlife even if he dies with honor - Hilgya does straddle the line between chaotic neutral and chaotic evil, according to most opinions here. What will he do? How will this work out?

In a related matter: Assuming the Giant has the story end with the dwarfs relieved of the grossly unjust rule on their afterlife (which is another question of its own), could they resolve their alignment differences and raise Kudzu together, as amiably separated parents? Hilgya may be irredeemably chaotic, but not irredeemably evil(ish). Durkon has himself gained appreciation for chaotic characters like Elan (and seemed to get along well with cousin Logann and uncle Thirden, both of which strike me as somewhat similar characters). Might it be that beyond proving the value of his character as it is and was, he will also grow in understanding the flaws of dwarven society amd allowing for more freedom-loving, chaotic dwarfs?

Rrmcklin
2018-08-23, 10:02 PM
You're asking a question none of us can even begin to answer. Questions of joint parenting are complicated enough in real-life, let alone in a story like this.

And family members potentially going to different afterlives is just a feature of this world, nothing can really be done about that.

But as far as the Dwarves situation changing by the end of this, I take as a given the same way I take the Goblinoids lot in life changing as a given. Rich just isn't the type of writer who would highlight these kinds of injustices and end his story with the status quo intact.

Peelee
2018-08-23, 11:17 PM
You're asking a question none of us can even begin to answer.

You underestimate my ego!

...i got nothin', though.

Rrmcklin
2018-08-23, 11:51 PM
But if I may posit something anyway, I think it's fairly likely Hilgya's opinion of Durkon will change for the better.

I doubt they'll ever see eye-to-eye on which gods are worth worshipping and things like that, but they'll be amicable enough that Durkon and his family will have a comfortable place in Kudzu's life.

Beyond that though, I got nothing.

Peelee
2018-08-24, 12:00 AM
I dunno, she seems pretty dead set on vilifying Durkon, and even if she is able to have an actual heart-to-heart with him, their value systems seem too radically different to really reconcile. The honor-bound, Good dwarf who is so honorably Good that he defeated the vampire at his own game is a far cry from the woman who is so distrustful and vengeful that she insists on bringing her own baby to a fight with a vampire army. At the very least until they interact again, I don't see any way they can bridge the massive chasm that separates them.

Rrmcklin
2018-08-24, 12:08 AM
Well, I don't imagine she'll ever like Durkon. But unless Hilgya dies or something, I don't see her leaving Kudzu's life, and I don't see Durkon not being in it either, so a compromise will have to be met.

Peelee
2018-08-24, 12:27 AM
Hilgya does not seem like the compromising type, is the thing.

Ruck
2018-08-24, 12:39 AM
I feel pretty confident Durkon, or the rest or the Order, or both, will be able to shift Hilgya's view on him.1 After all, it wasn't their alignment differences that drove them apart the first time; it was Durkon's discovery that Hilgya already had a husband. With that no longer being the case, and with Durkon indeed now being the father of Hilgya's child, he would, I assume, be much more amenable to having some kind of positive relationship with her (even if they don't "get back together," for lack of a better term). And given how quickly Hilgya's opinions of Durkon have flipped in the past, I could certainly see that happening again here.

(1 - The Doylist perspective being, of course, that they'll have to, because Durkon's not not going to be in his son's life, but he's not going to murder Hilgya to get custody, either. For many reasons I can't imagine we're going to see him sue for custody.)

The Pilgrim
2018-08-24, 05:30 AM
Durkon's problem with Hylgia was that she was married. Hylgia is now legally divorced. End of the problem.

Rrmcklin
2018-08-24, 06:27 AM
It really isn't though. The two are fundamentally incompatible in a number of areas. The marriage thing was just the first thing to highlight it.

Kish
2018-08-24, 07:29 AM
Lo those many years ago, Rich was willing to write Durkon as Lawful Crazy enough to fixate on "you're married!" and ignore both "to a man you describe as horribly abusive" and "you tried to poison him."

Him treating Durkon's moral sense as a joke now seems far less likely. "Hilgya is no longer married" will not be what determines his primary response here.

drazen
2018-08-24, 07:42 AM
My guess is that Hilgya may end up making some sort of Heroic Sacrifice in the final boss battle against the Exarch, thus causing the situation to resolve itself.

Or I guess she could end up siding with the Exarch, because she hates Durkon and the dwarves. The only ways to resurrect Durkon that we know about are either Hilgya doing it, or if the Order was able to get back the Resurrection scroll he was saving and gets someone to cast it (but who? it's divine magic).

Mandor
2018-08-24, 07:59 AM
Durkon's problem with Hylgia was that she was married. Hylgia is now legally divorced. End of the problem.

End of Durkon's problem with Hilgya's status, sure.
End of Hilgya's problem with Durkon, by no means sure.

I don't know that I actually expect a resolution to occur on-screen. Or if it's really something that we'll just know that Durkon is going to try, AFTER the world is saved.

Mandor
2018-08-24, 08:01 AM
My guess is that Hilgya may end up making some sort of Heroic Sacrifice in the final boss battle against the Exarch, thus causing the situation to resolve itself.

Or I guess she could end up siding with the Exarch, because she hates Durkon and the dwarves. The only ways to resurrect Durkon that we know about are either Hilgya doing it, or if the Order was able to get back the Resurrection scroll he was saving and gets someone to cast it (but who? it's divine magic).

I believe Thor himself is probably capable of casting a rez directly.
Especially in his own temple, especially with Greg out of the picture. (and thus no longer technically a cleric-vs-cleric contest / anything that might threaten treaties/agreements among the gods.)

hroþila
2018-08-24, 08:02 AM
Or I guess she could end up siding with the Exarch, because she hates Durkon and the dwarves.
Hilgya is a cleric of Loki. She's probably not going to go against her god without a very, very, VERY good reason.

Also, while Hilgya dislikes the traditional dwarven way of life, she still came back to her home because she missed it. And she's the mother of a dwarf. She's not going to doom her son and her whole species to Hel that easily, even if she believes she can weasel out of that doom herself (although her theory to escape Hel rests on her following Loki's teachings, and if she stops following Loki's teachings and fights against the will of her god, does that still apply because betraying Loki is even more Loki-like, or does her whole scheme [that is not even confirmed to work in the first place] go out of the window?).

Kish
2018-08-24, 08:06 AM
I believe Thor himself is probably capable of casting a rez directly.
Especially in his own temple, especially with [...] out of the picture. (and thus no longer technically a cleric-vs-cleric contest / anything that might threaten treaties/agreements among the gods.)
1) They're not in Thor's temple.
2) "Thor can resurrect Durkon without anyone casting the spell" would be a literal deus ex something, and would raise the question of why Hel can't simply take a comparable action before Thor does, and make Greg stand back up as a vampire again, as many times as it takes for her to win.

Rrmcklin
2018-08-24, 08:11 AM
Well, Greg didn't really have a body himself, he was highjacking Durkon's. If Thor was to hypothetically resurrected Durkon directly, I doubt Hel could just put another vampire spirit in him (or someone else) or just make them bodies of their own.

On Hilgya, she hates Dwarven customs, but not Dwarvenkind. Part of her stated reason for following Loki is so that she can show other dwarves there's a different way to live. She probably sees (most of them) trapped in the same way she eventually came to see Ivan (or whatever his name) as trapped in their marriage just as she was.

Kish
2018-08-24, 08:14 AM
Well, Greg didn't really have a body himself, he was highjacking Durkon's. If Thor was to hypothetically resurrected Durkon directly, I doubt Hel could just put another vampire spirit in him (or someone else) or just make them bodies of their own.
My point is that at that point you're saying: Thor can intervene directly on the Prime Material Plane in a huge way, Hel has nothing comparable. It would be as big a ripoff as someone's earlier proposal that Odin would just say "I'm declaring that every dwarven death caused by the world being destroyed counts as a death in honorable combat against the Snarl."

Jaxzan Proditor
2018-08-24, 11:03 AM
Well, they’ll certainly have to work through the fact that Hilgya wants to kill Durkon. Perhaps she’ll feel mollified now that he’s died once? Beyond that, I can’t see Hilgya and Durkon getting back together or anything, so I’d go with amicibale separated parents for my guess.

wumpus
2018-08-24, 12:17 PM
End of Durkon's problem with Hilgya's status, sure.
End of Hilgya's problem with Durkon, by no means sure.

I don't know that I actually expect a resolution to occur on-screen. Or if it's really something that we'll just know that Durkon is going to try, AFTER the world is saved.


Hilgya doesn't appear to be interested in anyone interfering in her life, and is unlikely to want Durkon "inflicting" dwarven morals on Kudzu. I also don't see any difference with her motives to kill Durkon when she met the order and her motives to [re]kill the "real" Durkon now.

Same old Durkon. It isn't clear if Hilgya wants a daddy for Kudzu, but I can't see her accepting Durkon. She's easily as chaotic crazy as Durkon is lawful steadfast (unless of course her side of all the stories are completely true. Odds of extrordinary claims being true that are coming from a priestess of Loki appear unlikely).

Themrys
2018-08-24, 12:58 PM
Durkon's problem with Hylgia was that she was married. Hylgia is now legally divorced. End of the problem.

Only that there's lots of places where the man who is married to the mother of a baby is automatically the father, legally, because there was no way to prove otherwise for most of human history.

I strongly suspect similar laws to be in place in OOTS-verse

Durkon gave up any and all rights to Kudzu the moment he told Hilgya to go back to her husband (instead of asking her if she was on contraception and begging her to get a divorce). Her ex-husband is now very likely legally the father of Kudzu, and the one who could sue for rights to see the kid.

Perhaps Hilgya will be sufficiently impressed with Durkon's heroism to let him see the kid, but as of now, Durkon is just a sperm donor, and one who might not even be able to prove the kid is his - depending on whether there's a spell for it in a D&D rulebook somewhere.
(I only believe that Durkon is Kudzu's father because of story-logic ... Elan is usually right about such things.)

Peelee
2018-08-24, 01:07 PM
Only that there's lots of places where the man who is married to the mother of a baby is automatically the father, legally, because there was no way to prove otherwise for most of human history.

I strongly suspect similar laws to be in place in OOTS-verse

Bet taken.

Rrmcklin
2018-08-24, 02:52 PM
Only that there's lots of places where the man who is married to the mother of a baby is automatically the father, legally, because there was no way to prove otherwise for most of human history.

I strongly suspect similar laws to be in place in OOTS-verse

Durkon gave up any and all rights to Kudzu the moment he told Hilgya to go back to her husband (instead of asking her if she was on contraception and begging her to get a divorce). Her ex-husband is now very likely legally the father of Kudzu, and the one who could sue for rights to see the kid.

Perhaps Hilgya will be sufficiently impressed with Durkon's heroism to let him see the kid, but as of now, Durkon is just a sperm donor, and one who might not even be able to prove the kid is his - depending on whether there's a spell for it in a D&D rulebook somewhere.
(I only believe that Durkon is Kudzu's father because of story-logic ... Elan is usually right about such things.)

And you're basing this on what, exactly? Because I'm sorry to say that OOTS (and fiction in general) only follows human history when it wants to, and there's no indication this would be a situation like that. When Hilgya returned Ivan was too stupid to even realize she was pregnant, and it doesn't seem like she wasted any time bankrupting her clan, of which Ivan's clan didn't even contest the divorce.

Nothing about the situation suggests that Ivan will be involved in either Hilgya's or Kudzu's life anymore.

Emanick
2018-08-24, 03:41 PM
Lo those many years ago, Rich was willing to write Durkon as Lawful Crazy enough to fixate on "you're married!" and ignore both "to a man you describe as horribly abusive" and "you tried to poison him."

Him treating Durkon's moral sense as a joke now seems far less likely. "Hilgya is no longer married" will not be what determines his primary response here.

I dunno, marriage is a Big Deal to a lot of people, especially very Lawful ones, and especially when it comes to adultery. Durkon's obliviousness to Ivan's alleged abusiveness and Hilgya's attempt to poison him may have been played for laughs, but I don't think "modern" Durkon would be fine with deliberately cuckolding someone, either - un-fine with it enough to "fixate" on it, even.

There are a lot of variables in play here, so I certainly won't attempt to guess which one will determine Durkon's "primary response" to Hilgya now. But if he has even a shred of interest in striking up a relationship with her again - which I don't take as a given - I expect him to behave differently towards her than he would if she were still married.

Kish
2018-08-24, 04:01 PM
While I confess I am entirely unsuited for understanding a Lawful mindset, I will maintain nonetheless, whether I know what I am talking about or not, that relatively few people in the real world would rank "you're married" as more alarming than "you tried to kill your husband."

(More who would rank "you're married" above "your husband is an abusive monster," I recognize, but I am nevertheless confident Rich won't put that viewpoint in the mouth of one of someone who he described as "unimpeachably Lawful Good.")

woweedd
2018-08-24, 04:02 PM
Given that i'm pretty sure Dwarves don't have social services..I'm not sure. Then again, they have pensions. ALso, vis-a-vis the marriage issue, I doubt that's Durkon's biggest issue here, and, even if his main problem was H being married, given how she got out, he'd probably be pretty pissed.

SlashDash
2018-08-25, 01:37 PM
I do need to point out that just because someone said, thought or acted in a certain way - doesn't mean they don't change their minds in this comics.

You realize that's part of the reason why people like this comics? Characters aren't flat and they manage to develop.

Remember how much Crystal hated Haley? She was talked into potentially making peace of sorts with her, turning her back on Bozok and then talking to Haley about potentially leaving her alone for a while.

Why do people think neither Durkon or Hilga can't change is beyond me.


My guess is that Hilgya may end up making some sort of Heroic Sacrifice in the final boss battle against the Exarch, thus causing the situation to resolve itself.

Or I guess she could end up siding with the Exarch, because she hates Durkon and the dwarves. The only ways to resurrect Durkon that we know about are either Hilgya doing it, or if the Order was able to get back the Resurrection scroll he was saving and gets someone to cast it (but who? it's divine magic).
Absolutely no on the second part. Loki is against Hel. Clerics never go against their gods.

The first part is plausible. It doesn't have to be heroic, she could die by a sneak attack (not mechanically) or something during a future encounter with the Exarch.

Because unless she is killed here, I don't see any reason why she won't join the order. Loki wants the mortals to stop Xykon. She can't really go against that assuming the order tells her that - and she's powerful enough as a cleric to be extremely useful to the party.


On the other hand, the odds of Hilga joining them is pretty much 0. There is no way we'll rehash the same tactics as before and there's no reason why Hilga won't use the same tactics because they are so incredibly efficient, like sending the dire giraffes.

And the Giant has to force V out of so many fights, forcing Hilga as well will get troublesome and boring.


I believe Thor himself is probably capable of casting a rez directly.
Especially in his own temple, especially with Greg out of the picture. (and thus no longer technically a cleric-vs-cleric contest / anything that might threaten treaties/agreements among the gods.)
Umm... No. If that was the case, the Dark One would resurrect all the goblins in gobtopia - and Jirix in particular.

Why do you need such a deus-ex-machina in the first place? We were already told Durkon's ashes are enough and Hilga is obviously high level enough to do it.

Rrmcklin
2018-08-25, 02:30 PM
My guess is that Hilgya may end up making some sort of Heroic Sacrifice in the final boss battle against the Exarch, thus causing the situation to resolve itself.

Or I guess she could end up siding with the Exarch, because she hates Durkon and the dwarves. The only ways to resurrect Durkon that we know about are either Hilgya doing it, or if the Order was able to get back the Resurrection scroll he was saving and gets someone to cast it (but who? it's divine magic).

There's not gonna be a "final boss battle" against the Exarch. We've already done that, with Greg. The Exarch might still be "alive" and carrying out the plans, but he has neither the power no resources to be a final boss.

And Hilgya dying doesn't resolve the situation; that just means that the parent Kudzu grows up without is different from the one Durkon did.

Hilgya doesn't hate the dwarves as a whole, just some of the way their society is built. And she certainly isn't going to turn on her god.

And "Hilgya or resurrection scroll" aren't the only options. They might be the least troublesome and most likely, but I can envision some other fairly plausible scenarios.

Angrith
2018-08-25, 07:25 PM
What I see happening is Durkon talking things over with Hilgya (fighting/friendly I don't know) and then going to save the world before trying to raise Kudzu. Durkon is wise enough to see that the best "Dad move" here is to make sure his kid has a plane to live on. Whether we see the final resolution depends on if the Giant does an epilogue I think.

SlashDash
2018-08-26, 05:57 AM
There's not gonna be a "final boss battle" against the Exarch. We've already done that, with Greg. The Exarch might still be "alive" and carrying out the plans, but he has neither the power no resources to be a final boss.

He doesn't have much resources, but neither does the order. They lost a lot of their spell slots in the battles to get here as well as their potion. Some of them might even be drained (depending on Hilga's memorized spell slots).

He could get another army of lackeys he dominates by now.



Also, final boss doesn't have to be a physical struggle, it could be a diplomatic one. We still have no idea what his plans for the council are. People assume domination, but we don't know that for a fact.



I do agree that another battle is less likely, as it could get boring to have a repeating of last time.



Hilgya doesn't hate the dwarves as a whole

Absolutely, in fact she even tells Elan that if she spreads the word of Loki she helps protect dwarves from Hel. That's part of her goal.

woweedd
2018-08-26, 11:41 AM
He doesn't have much resources, but neither does the order. They lost a lot of their spell slots in the battles to get here as well as their potion. Some of them might even be drained (depending on Hilga's memorized spell slots).

He could get another army of lackeys he dominates by now.



Also, final boss doesn't have to be a physical struggle, it could be a diplomatic one. We still have no idea what his plans for the council are. People assume domination, but we don't know that for a fact.



I do agree that another battle is less likely, as it could get boring to have a repeating of last time.


Absolutely, in fact she even tells Elan that if she spreads the word of Loki she helps protect dwarves from Hel. That's part of her goal.
Um, the Exarch specifically said Dominating the council is the plan.

SlashDash
2018-08-27, 03:13 AM
Um, the Exarch specifically said Dominating the council is the plan.

Where? All I see in 1111 is they are talking about "preparations" for the vote. The word dominating isn't mentioned.

SlashDash
2018-08-27, 03:24 AM
Where? All I see in 1111 is they are talking about "preparations" for the vote. The word dominating isn't mentioned.

I went even further back.

In 1084, Greg tells Hel all preparations are going well, yet they haven't reached the council yet - The word domination isn't mentioned at all.

Later on he mentions that there are several contingencies in play - Implying that even if domination is the plan, it's not the only plan.

Then at the end of the strip, there is an interference with the communication preventing us from hearing exactly what they were doing -

Which is Tarquin's rule about characters never talk about stuff the audience isn't aware of yet.


Just seems like it's clear that there's going to be another twist here and not something as simple as dominating the council.






It would be insanely dumb if domination would be the plan, considering that's not just a vampire thing and wizards, clerics and demons cast it in the comics all the time and could have tampered in the vote whenever they wanted.



EDIT :
Nevermind... Found it. It's in 1016.

Exarch says they'll dominate the elders. My guess however based on the above is that it won't work but we'll see one of those mysterious contingencies in play.

Ruck
2018-08-27, 01:20 PM
It would be insanely dumb if domination would be the plan, considering that's not just a vampire thing and wizards, clerics and demons cast it in the comics all the time and could have tampered in the vote whenever they wanted.
I don't think your "considering" follows as a logical explanation for your initial statement.

woweedd
2018-08-27, 03:07 PM
I don't think your "considering" follows as a logical explanation for your initial statement.
I think h'es saying it would be insanely dumb that nobody tried that before. Of course, we don't know how often the Council even gets involved, other then "at least once." It's very possible either no one tried, or it just didn't come up, since, as we saw, it requires a two-way tie for it to matter.

Rrmcklin
2018-08-27, 03:16 PM
People seem to be forgetting that the Dwarven Council of Clans is both separate from the Godsmoot and not even the dwarves official parliament.

It hardly even gets any use. As for its own internal rules, we see the Exarch memorize all of them so any questions you have will likely be addressed.

Ruck
2018-08-27, 03:23 PM
I think h'es saying it would be insanely dumb that nobody tried that before. Of course, we don't know how often the Council even gets involved, other then "at least once." It's very possible either no one tried, or it just didn't come up, since, as we saw, it requires a two-way tie for it to matter.


People seem to be forgetting that the Dwarven Council of Clans is both separate from the Godsmoot and not even the dwarves official parliament.

It hardly even gets any use. As for its own internal rules, we see the Exarch memorize all of them so any questions you have will likely be addressed.

Yeah, I think it's rather likely that it's never come up before, and if it has, that no one has been as strongly motivated to rig the results as Hel is.

axus
2018-08-27, 03:52 PM
Yeah, I think it's rather likely that it's never come up before, and if it has, that no one has been as strongly motivated to rig the results as Hel is.

A while back, The Giant implied that this obviously unfair domination plan might not be accepted, even though it was "lawfully" executed.

Kish
2018-08-27, 04:04 PM
Where?

I would find it...surprising...if he implied "the threat the Order is racing to stop is a paper tiger."

AutomatedTeller
2018-08-27, 04:39 PM
I dunno why Thor couldn't raise Durkon. I mean, he's the source for all spells for his clerics, including Resurrection.

Only thing stopping him would be an agreement among the Gods to not to do that, which might be well exist.

Kish
2018-08-27, 04:57 PM
If the gods can resurrect their clerics whenever they want, why do any clerics ever die?

Fyraltari
2018-08-27, 04:57 PM
I dunno why Thor couldn't raise Durkon. I mean, he's the source for all spells for his clerics, including Resurrection.

Only thing stopping him would be an agreement among the Gods to not to do that, which might be well exist.

So you know why he couldn't, then?

:smallconfused:

Grey_Wolf_c
2018-08-27, 06:20 PM
If the gods can resurrect their clerics whenever they want, why do any clerics ever die?

Especially Hel's ones, which she has explicitly complained about losing to adventurers?

Grey Wolf

Rrmcklin
2018-08-27, 07:41 PM
Hel has no living clerics to raise. That's one of the major ways she's been screwed over by the bet.

Benjamin Vazque
2018-08-27, 08:34 PM
Hel has no living clerics to raise. That's one of the major ways she's been screwed over by the bet.

True, but if we're imagining a world in which the actions of Gods in the world aren't limited by spell descriptions, then there's no reason she couldn't simply raise (or reactivate, if you prefer) the undead clerics over and over and over.

Enjoy,
Benjamin A. Vazquez, U.E.

Rrmcklin
2018-08-28, 12:37 AM
Maybe, but those clerics wouldn't be high level. We're told outright whenever she endowed an undead with clerical powers they would also end up getting slayed as the low level boss of a dungeon.

woweedd
2018-08-28, 01:01 AM
Maybe, but those clerics wouldn't be high level. We're told outright whenever she endowed an undead with clerical powers they would also end up getting slayed as the low level boss of a dungeon.
No, what Kish is saying is that, if the gods can resurrect anyone they want whenever they feel like, why would Clerics ever stay dead, ever? Thus, we can conclude that there's something preventing them from doing so, most likely something similar to the Domain Agreement. Point is, Thor can't just Ressercut anyone he feels like. He has access to the spells his Clerics use, but he's limited in using them himself. Otherwise, he'd have no need for Clerics.

Rrmcklin
2018-08-28, 01:34 AM
I understood Kish's point, I'm saying that for Hel it doesn't matter either way. And I'm doing so because Grey Wolf mentioned it as if the gods being able to directly raise their clerics whenever they wanted would actually improve Hel's situation.

woweedd
2018-08-28, 01:47 AM
I understood Kish's point, I'm saying that for Hel it doesn't matter either way. And I'm doing so because Grey Wolf mentioned it as if the gods being able to directly raise their clerics whenever they wanted would actually improve Hel's situation.
It would. She could just bring back, say,a vampire if said vampire, hypothetically, failed in their mission to dominate a Dwarven council, thus subverting a vote in Hel's favor. Hypothetically.:smallbiggrin:

Rrmcklin
2018-08-28, 01:58 AM
I know that's a joke about the situation, but I don't think it follows. If you can't revive undead anyway, then that means nothing to Hel.

Her situation is uniquely terrible.

woweedd
2018-08-28, 04:38 AM
I know that's a joke about the situation, but I don't think it follows. If you can't revive undead anyway, then that means nothing to Hel.

Her situation is uniquely terrible.
No, but you can CREATE undead.

Kish
2018-08-28, 08:00 AM
If, as AutomatedTeller suggested, gods being able to cast all the cleric spells whenever they want is implied by them being the source of spells for their followers, that would mean Hel can cast Create Greater Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createGreaterUndead.htm) whenever she wants. Devourers everywhere.

Mind, I see no actual reason to believe that the gods can cast any spell, even Create Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createWater.htm), on the Prime Material Plane, rather than needing someone (a cleric) to act for them.

hamishspence
2018-08-28, 08:13 AM
If, as AutomatedTeller suggested, gods being able to cast all the cleric spells whenever they want is implied by them being the source of spells for their followers, that would mean Hel can cast Create Greater Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createGreaterUndead.htm) whenever she wants. Devourers everywhere.

Being able to cast create greater undead whenever they want, would be standard for a deity with the Death domain - a deity gains all their domain spells as at-will spell-like abilities:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#spellLikeAbilities

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities

Maybe the domain agreement is a reason why she doesn't do so.

Grey_Wolf_c
2018-08-28, 08:28 AM
I understood Kish's point, I'm saying that for Hel it doesn't matter either way. And I'm doing so because Grey Wolf mentioned it as if the gods being able to directly raise their clerics whenever they wanted would actually improve Hel's situation.

It would, because she'd just keep bringing back her own undead clerics until they gained enough levels to vote for her in the moots. Unless you argument is that "gods can only cast one spell in the material plane, resurrection, and only on their dead clerics", which is such a specific loophole that I simply don't buy it at all.

Grey Wolf

hamishspence
2018-08-28, 09:47 AM
"Bringing slain undead back to unlife" is a non-core spell.

It may not exist in OOTS, or if it does, Hel for some reason may not have access to it.

Perhaps she has no levels in the relevant spellcasting class, or only has levels in a spontaneous-casting class like Sorcerer, and has not learned it.

Dion
2018-08-28, 01:35 PM
Mind, I see no actual reason to believe that the gods can cast any spell, even Create Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createWater.htm), on the Prime Material Plane, rather than needing someone (a cleric) to act for them.

Yes. Gods don’t act on the Prime Material plane, except in extraordinary circumstances. And even then, their powers are limited to only those that add dramatic tension to the story. They don’t solve problems for the protagonists.

If Thor or Banjo or whoever could just pop in and start casting spells, there wouldn’t be a point to any of this. They would have just snuffed out Xykon as soon as he started threatening the gates, and have been done with it all.

Fyraltari
2018-08-28, 02:10 PM
If, as AutomatedTeller suggested, gods being able to cast all the cleric spells whenever they want is implied by them being the source of spells for their followers, that would mean Hel can cast Create Greater Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createGreaterUndead.htm) whenever she wants. Devourers everywhere.
I would also mean that Thor would be able to zap each of those into oblivion (or just Heal them).
So assuming it's both possible and allowed you'd still have a stalemate. One that Hel would probably loose since she's weaker than Thor. So we don't need "the Gods are unable to cast the spells they themself create" to explain the lack of Devourers everywhere.


Mind, I see no actual reason to believe that the gods can cast any spell, even Create Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createWater.htm), on the Prime Material Plane, rather than needing someone (a cleric) to act for them.
Thor did create a storm the minute the Mechane entered the North, though, so they don't need Clerics for everything.

Rrmcklin
2018-08-28, 02:34 PM
No, but you can CREATE undead.

And Hel can already do that. Again, nothing changed. Unless you're assuming Hel creating an entirely new vampire would retain all of Durkon's class levels or whatever. I see no reason to believe that, though.


It would, because she'd just keep bringing back her own undead clerics until they gained enough levels to vote for her in the moots. Unless you argument is that "gods can only cast one spell in the material plane, resurrection, and only on their dead clerics", which is such a specific loophole that I simply don't buy it at all

No, the argument is that it wouldn't matter how many times she brought them back (assuming she could) if they'd just keep meeting the same fate.

I'm really not sure what's hard to understand about this, Hel's problem before was that all her low-level clerics kept getting slain before they could become high-level. If there are circumstances that lead that to keep happening, which there are, then just bringing them back low-level does not help her.

She would need something to address the adventuring parties that were preventing them from getting high-level in the first place. That's the part you aren't addressing. It doesn't matter how many times she can do something if the reasons it keeps needing to be done are unaccounted for.

Fyraltari
2018-08-28, 02:49 PM
She would need something to address the adventuring parties that were preventing them from getting high-level in the first place. That's the part you aren't addressing. It doesn't matter how many times she can do something if the reasons it keeps needing to be done are unaccounted for.

But they're not reaching high levels because they're dead. If she could bring them back as soon as their killers are gone then they just got a time out and could continue level-grinding until epic levels like everybody else.

Kish
2018-08-28, 02:58 PM
And Hel can already do that. Again, nothing changed.
A great deal changed if gods can do anything that involves casting a cleric spell at will: there's no reason for a dead body to ever remain a dead body for half an hour instead of either getting resurrected (if a friendly god gets to it first) or becoming a devourer (if Hel does).

Not comparable to "oh, the gods of storms said there would be a storm there."

Fyraltari
2018-08-28, 03:08 PM
A great deal changed if gods can do anything that involves casting a cleric spell at will: there's no reason for a dead body to ever remain a dead body for half an hour instead of either getting resurrected (if a friendly god gets to it first) or becoming a devourer (if Hel does).

Not comparable to "oh, the gods of storms said there would be a storm there."

Agreed which is why I think using spells, on the Material Plane, would be resticted by their agreement, lest it all devolves into a free-for-all and a second Snarl (or worse) is birthed.

Mandor
2018-08-28, 09:50 PM
Agreed which is why I think using spells, on the Material Plane, would be resticted by their agreement, lest it all devolves into a free-for-all and a second Snarl (or worse) is birthed.

I could certainly see that being the case.
I do wonder though, if they're allowed to act in a temple devoted to them.

Now, i fully admit, I'm saying this in part because I'd love to see Thor directly rez Durkon. But it does seem to me that restoring one of their dead followers in their own temple, might be sufficiently restrictive to pass muster. It would after all make their own temples pretty tough bulwarks against anyone trying to desecrate them. And while Durkon's body is not right now lying in Thor's temple, it's not like it's impossibly far for his body to be dragged once Roy + Co wake up.

Mostly though, I just a) am sure Durkon is getting a rez, and b) am sure Hilgya would choke on it before providing him one. So that says to me SOMEONE else, is going to have to cast it. Now, maybe a prophecy-giving high lvl cleric of Odin will just happen to wander by now that the battles done. Or something far more mundane. But one way or another a raise or a rez is forthcoming.

woweedd
2018-08-28, 10:36 PM
I could certainly see that being the case.
I do wonder though, if they're allowed to act in a temple devoted to them.

Now, i fully admit, I'm saying this in part because I'd love to see Thor directly rez Durkon. But it does seem to me that restoring one of their dead followers in their own temple, might be sufficiently restrictive to pass muster. It would after all make their own temples pretty tough bulwarks against anyone trying to desecrate them. And while Durkon's body is not right now lying in Thor's temple, it's not like it's impossibly far for his body to be dragged once Roy + Co wake up.

Mostly though, I just a) am sure Durkon is getting a rez, and b) am sure Hilgya would choke on it before providing him one. So that says to me SOMEONE else, is going to have to cast it. Now, maybe a prophecy-giving high lvl cleric of Odin will just happen to wander by now that the battles done. Or something far more mundane. But one way or another a raise or a rez is forthcoming.
I'm fairly certain we know who's' providing the money. Durkon has 5 people who love him dearly, and owe his mother for a very similar favor, if you catch my meaning.

Emanick
2018-08-29, 07:45 AM
I'm fairly certain we know who's' providing the money. Durkon has 5 people who love him dearly, and owe his mother for a very similar favor, if you catch my meaning.

It’s a nice idea, but I doubt his friends are that rich. Could be wrong, of course.

Grey_Wolf_c
2018-08-29, 07:56 AM
It’s a nice idea, but I doubt his friends are that rich. Could be wrong, of course.

One of them owns silver mines, after she sued the owners of the mines where they died into oblivion.

Grey Wolf

Kish
2018-08-29, 08:35 AM
I could certainly see that being the case.
I do wonder though, if they're allowed to act in a temple devoted to them.

Now, i fully admit, I'm saying this in part because I'd love to see Thor directly rez Durkon. But it does seem to me that restoring one of their dead followers in their own temple, might be sufficiently restrictive to pass muster. It would after all make their own temples pretty tough bulwarks against anyone trying to desecrate them. And while Durkon's body is not right now lying in Thor's temple, it's not like it's impossibly far for his body to be dragged once Roy + Co wake up.
In which case, it would be standard procedure for every worshiper of Thor, or more likely considering his feud with Hel, every worshiper of Thor or dwarf who died dishonorably regardless of god, who died anywhere near his temple to be brought to it and resurrected. The memory Durkon used to overwhelm Greg would never have happened that way because the priests of Thor would have brought all the dead miners to the temple, where they all would have returned to life without anyone needing to pay for it.