Paladin with 19 INT?

[bengrue]

So, through shenanigans my weird Paladin (in service to the Goddess of Trade, Waukeen) got weirder: now wearing a Headband of Intellect, his former dump stat of INT got pumped to 19.

(Our primary spellcasters are a Druid and a Sorcerer, and I was failing a lot of Religion checks, so the team actually voted it to me (shrug).)

Anyways, other than suddenly being +4 to History and Religion... what is there I could do that's fun with this? Are there any tangible benefits to getting to Level 6 Paladin and switching to Wizard that usually would be ignored because it'd require Too Many Attributes but suddenly I got'm?

(It's my first 5e game and... I hadn't played D&D since the 90's prior. So I'm relatively novice here.)

[AttilatheYeon]

Go abjurer for arcane ward. Abuse the hell outa shield and absorb elements.

[CTurbo]

That is weird for sure lol

I would not multiclass because of some magic item, but I could see possibly taking Magic Initiative: Wizard for some fun spells. A ranged attack cantrip would be good as would Green Flame Blade, and of course Find Familiar

Other than that, nah I can't really think of anything fun mechanically speaking

[CTurbo]

Go abjurer for arcane ward. Abuse the hell outa shield and absorb elements.


Paladin 6/ Abjurer 14 would be pretty ridiculous I have to admit lol

A 2 level dip in Diviner would be fun, but I stick to not multiclassing over a magic item

[Unoriginal]

You can't multiclass using a temporary stat boost provided by an item.

It's not a tome of stat augmentation.

[Blood of Gaea]

Perhaps you could look into the ritual caster feat? It could be thematic if nothing else.

Note that your normal Int needs to reach the requirment.

[leogobsin]

Note that your normal Int needs to reach the requirment.

For what it's worth, I don't know that this is actually true. The description of feats doesn't say anything that would prevent you from taking a feat that you only meet the prerequisites for because of a magic item (but if you stopped being attuned to the item you'd lose the benefits of the feat until you met the prerequisites again.)


You can't multiclass using a temporary stat boost provided by an item.

It's not a tome of stat augmentation.

Same thing with this; might be RAI but RAW nothing says an ability score increase from a magic item doesn't qualify you for multiclassing.

[bengrue]

Ah, I didnt know about the minimum "natural" stat reqs for these cases. Where's that listed?

Yeah, no. This boy's got a natural 10 INT. Quite a shock to nearly double his clock speed, I warrant.

[leogobsin]

Ah, I didnt know about the minimum "natural" stat reqs for these cases. Where's that listed?

Yeah, no. This boy's got a natural 10 INT. Quite a shock to nearly double his clock speed, I warrant.

Like I said above, I don't think its actually listed anywhere. It certainly makes sense that it could be true, but nothing anywhere explicitly says it is. I'd probably check with your DM to see how they feel on the matter.

[bengrue]

I'd probably check with your DM to see how they feel on the matter.

The golden rule!

Also, it feels like a giddy DM thing to allow it, get the artifact broken/stolen, and then whoops you don't have access to those levels/feats while you're under the minimum or some such...

[leogobsin]

The golden rule!

Also, it feels like a giddy DM thing to allow it, get the artifact broken/stolen, and then whoops you don't have access to those levels/feats while you're under the minimum or some such...

Probably how I'd rule for multiclassing is you wouldn't lose the benefits of any levels if you lost the headband (though if you were multiclassed into a Wizard as a result of Headband of Intellect you'd obviously take a hit on spells prepared/save DC/etc.) but if you gained a new level while you didn't have the headband that level couldn't be in Wizard. 5e doesn't have level drain, hacking it in as a result of an edge case magic item interaction feels cheap and like not a great idea.

[Aaron Underhand]

As noted INT was a dump stat, and so multiclassing wizard is out. I would guess feats are precious as well.

What you might consider is multiclassing lore bard. This would allow you to pick up skills and expertise. Investigate on a paladin could be scary, and arcana as well .. the role play options look a lot of fun, but that depends on you and the group you play in...

Paladin 6-8 Bard 14-12.. synergist, and a lot of fun with great skills...

[Lvl 2 Expert]

You could start spouting questions about the nature of life and the universe, start studying the weather, the world and the stars, have a crisis of faith about how all that can ever be honored and respected by the mere rituals of your religion, fall back on your wisdom to through intense meditation reunite your new view of the world with the values you've held since you were young and come out a stronger and even more determined individual.

I mean, there's something to be said for the roleplaying opportunities in the situation isn't there?

Kidding aside, depending on your DM you might get some use out of general intelligence rolls for insight every now and then. "Given the layout of the land, if the rogue circles around, would that surprise the goblins? No? Okay, new plan."

[DeTess]

I'd be careful basing any decisions on the assumption you'll always be attuned to the headband. If your DM is very stingy with magic items you might get away with it, but if he's more generous then you might reach a point where you'd really like to use that atunement slot for something else, but if your wizardness is based on this item, you won't be able to.

[Spiritchaser]

You can't multiclass using a temporary stat boost provided by an item.

It's not a tome of stat augmentation.

Is that actually a rule? (I’m afraid I’ve loaned my PHB to a player for a few days) I can’t say I remember it.

I can certainly see it being the more reasonable ruling, and possibly the one I’d make if for no other reason than that if you allow the MC you have more work to do, but I don’t see it as the only valid way to go with this...

[ImproperJustice]

War Wizard could net you arcane deflection (+4 reaction to a save or +2 AC), and a nice +4 to initiative.

As mentioned, you would get Absorb Elements, Shield, and a few other great picks like Thunderwave, Expeditious Retreat, and Misty Step.
All the benefits of an early EK on a Paladin chassie.

[Snowbluff]

I'd be careful basing any decisions on the assumption you'll always be attuned to the headband. If your DM is very stingy with magic items you might get away with it, but if he's more generous then you might reach a point where you'd really like to use that atunement slot for something else, but if your wizardness is based on this item, you won't be able to.

The good new is if you lose the headband, you do not lose the ability to take more wizard levels.

[DeTess]

The good new is if you lose the headband, you do not lose the ability to take more wizard levels.

That's true, but your wizard levels become significantly worse than they where before, unless you chose your spells and the like to work even with int 10.

[Vogie]

While you wouldn't be able to MC into Wizard, without getting your base Int to 13 - probably 2 ASIs or an ASI & a feat (DM fiat nonwithstanding) - anything else that gives wizard-y powers will work:
A Couple Levels into EK or AT
Magic Initiate: Wizard for offensive, rather than Utility Cantrips

[Snowbluff]

That's true, but your wizard levels become significantly worse than they where before, unless you chose your spells and the like to work even with int 10.

I think there are enough good, int-free spells (Shield, Absorb Elements), combined with arcane recovery and more slots in general for smites, school class features, that even if you're not working with a full stack of prepped spells it's a good improvement.

[tieren]

Personally I would stick with feats instead of multiclassing, unless you already had a different vision for how your paladin would progress.

Magic initiate could give you a couple of nice ranged options you don't have now. Ritual caster might be an interesting way to show a focused new interest in magical learning (get you a familiar, unseen servant squire, etc...)

You might even want to think about the skilled feat to grab some int skill proficiencies you probably didn't focus on when it was your dump stat.

[Arial Black]

Ah, I didnt know about the minimum "natural" stat reqs for these cases. Where's that listed?

It isn't listed because there is no such rule. Similar rules existed in previous editions, and some players wrongly assume it to be true in 5e, but it just isn't.

What the rule actually is in relation to the minimum stats for multi-classing is:-

"To qualify for a new class, you must meet the ability score prerequisites for both your current class and your new one (as shown in the table)...

...Without the full training that a beginning character receives, you must be a quick study in your new class, having a natural aptitude that is reflected by higher-than-average ability scores."

So, RAW, you must meet the prerequisites as you level up and decide to multi-class into a class you don't already have levels in. What your ability scores were before you did this are irrelevant. What your scores are after you do this are irrelevant: you will not lose your access to your wizard abilities if your Int score later drops below 13, and even with an Int of 10 you can still gain wizard levels as long as you already have at least one wizard level already.

Ah, but does the Headband of Intellect give you that 'natural aptitude' of having an ability score of at least 13? Let's look at the magic item description and find out:-

"Your Intelligence IS 19 while you wear this headband"!!! Of course, since it requires attunement then you have to be attuned to it for it to make your Int score 19.

Could this be abused? Could a party, over a period of days, let each PC qualify for a wizard MC, take that option, and then pass the headband on and revert to their normal Int? Yes. Now you have a party who each have one or more levels of wizard, and who each have 12 or lower Int (except one PC with 19 from the headband). I don't think DMs will be quaking in their boots.


Yeah, no. This boy's got a natural 10 INT. Quite a shock to nearly double his clock speed, I warrant.

One cool way to play this sudden massive increase is like the film (and TV series) Limitless. Choose to attempt every Int check, and you'll make plenty with your +4 modifier, and explain it as your brain making subconscious connections.

[Vogie]

It isn't listed because there is no such rule. Similar rules existed in previous editions, and some players wrongly assume it to be true in 5e, but it just isn't.



The intent is that your base score, not a temporary score, has to meet a multiclassing prerequisite.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/07/multiclass-temporary-stat-prerequisite/

[SirGraystone]

Like many thing this fall in a grey area, so first ask your DM if you can multiclass to wizard with the headband of intellect.

For my group I would let someone multiclass with it, but if the PC intelligence get under 13 he can't use wizard spell. Because I know player who will multiclass for some spells that doesnt need a saving throws, then get rid of the headband to free an attunement slot.

[DeTess]

Like many thing this fall in a grey area, so first ask your DM if you can multiclass to wizard with the headband of intellect.

For my group I would let someone multiclass with it, but if the PC intelligence get under 13 he can't use wizard spell. Because I know player who will multiclass for some spells that doesnt need a saving throws, then get rid of the headband to free an attunement slot.

But isn't it odd that a single-class wizard could get to wizard 20 and cast 9th level spells without ever getting 13 INT?

[Spiritchaser]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/07/multiclass-temporary-stat-prerequisite/

So RAI it won’t work, but RAW, it’s open to interpretation.

To be honest, I’d almost be inclined to allow it. I think it could be quite entertaining to play a character like that.

Though I’ll grant it certainly doesn’t “feel” right at first glance, it might be fun enough to be worth a shot.

I don’t really see a min max issue, you probably can’t do much you couldn’t already do by dumping CON with an amulet of health.

[SirGraystone]

But isn't it odd that a single-class wizard could get to wizard 20 and cast 9th level spells without ever getting 13 INT?

True by the rules you could make a wizard with 8 intelligence if you wanted but no one does, many things are odd in any game rules. Some previous version of AD&D had minimum level of intelligence to use spells like at 12 to cast 6th level spells and 18 to cast 9th level spells.

http://ancientscrossroads.com/adnd_tools/int_table.htm

[mormon_soldier]

For role playing this, you could channel "Flowers For Algernon." A janitor at a labratory is asked to participate in a drug trial because of his low IQ. The drug quickly gives him almost supernatural intelligence and he struggles with the way this changes his relationship with the people and the world around him.

[Blood of Gaea]

As DM, I would probably give a plot hook to allow the Paladin to go on a quest to "fuse" with the headband, permanently giving him 19 Int, but also permanently filling an attunement slot.

[Willie the Duck]

Anyways, other than suddenly being +4 to History and Religion... what is there I could do that's fun with this? Are there any tangible benefits to getting to Level 6 Paladin and switching to Wizard that usually would be ignored because it'd require Too Many Attributes but suddenly I got'm?

Honestly, if you had a 13 Wisdom, I would dip 1-2 levels in knowledge domain cleric (Waukeen is knowledge/trickery, right?) and rock that impossible knowledge checks. After that, Magic Initiate (wizard) for cantrips and find familar would be fun. If I were to multiclass to an Int-using class, I'd go with Eldritch Knight, not wizard. As much fun as getting full-caster slots to boost your smite, if you'd wanted to go the super-nova route, you probably would have already gone sorcadin.

[Lycan999]

Not really a mechanical option but since your paladin serves Waukeen he may take this newly increased cognitive capability as a sign to start studying economics (or have them revealed to him) in order to start manipulating markets a la Spice and Wolf. Why fight the BBEG directly when you can conspire with the local trade and merchant guilds to have his entire operation collapse financially?

[Arial Black]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/07/multiclass-temporary-stat-prerequisite/

"The intent is that your base score, not a temporary score, has to meet a multiclassing prerequisite."

Thank you for supporting my point. The rule is that your Int (or whatever stat) needs to be 13+ at the moment you take your first level in a new (multi-)class. The intent might be different, but we are discussing what the rules say.

If it were an actual rule, then the Sage Advice would be, "The rule is that your base score has to meet a multiclassing prerequisite", but it doesn't say that because it isn't true.

[Particle_Man]

What is your character’s background? Would a high int make you better at it?

[MaxWilson]

"The intent is that your base score, not a temporary score, has to meet a multiclassing prerequisite."

Thank you for supporting my point. The rule is that your Int (or whatever stat) needs to be 13+ at the moment you take your first level in a new (multi-)class. The intent might be different, but we are discussing what the rules say.

If it were an actual rule, then the Sage Advice would be, "The rule is that your base score has to meet a multiclassing prerequisite", but it doesn't say that because it isn't true.

It's not even unreasonable from a gameworld standpoint. Whatever Int it takes to go to wizard school/whatever and learn spellcasting, the Paladin has got it. He wouldn't still have it if he lost the headband, and it might be reasonable for a DM to rule that his wizard abilities decay or something over time, but he clearly has what it takes right now.

Corollary: it would be pretty silly for a DM to rule that a Feebleminded PC can multiclass to wizard despite having Int 1, just because his regular, base Int score is 13+.

[bengrue]

What is your character’s background? Would a high int make you better at it?

I've been playing him almost like a Paladin Devil? His word is his bond once he agrees to something... but he actually draws up a contract. So. The Int should help with that I think!

[bengrue]

Not really a mechanical option but since your paladin serves Waukeen he may take this newly increased cognitive capability as a sign to start studying economics (or have them revealed to him) in order to start manipulating markets a la Spice and Wolf. Why fight the BBEG directly when you can conspire with the local trade and merchant guilds to have his entire operation collapse financially?

I can't express how much I like this idea. However our campaign is still in the discovery phase so there really isnt a BBEG yet that we know of. Although basically half of the Lord Alliance in Neverwinter is acting really suspiciously right now, so building up a trade empire to attack the weird ones' interests could be a fun (and kinda un-D&D) way to win?

[Particle_Man]

I've been playing him almost like a Paladin Devil? His word is his bond once he agrees to something... but he actually draws up a contract. So. The Int should help with that I think!

Oh, well there are plenty of heroic lawyers. Matlock to the rescue!

Probably you would be good at diffusing disputes in civilized areas because you could point to the appropriate legal way to resolve things.