need help with rules.

[wolfboy_forever]

so as the title says, i need help on a few rules.

when playing last night, the party ran into a few issues.

so im a melee warlock, i use green flame blade with a whip and have spell sniper, which means i get to hit people 10 feet away with the cantrip, the issue we are having is, the other part of spell sniper says that "Your ranged spell attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover."
as i read it, green flame blade is a "ranged spell" (5 feet normally, 10 feet with spell sniper) but the party says it isnt, so therefore i can hide behind someone and use my cantrip without giving the enemy half cover.
they keep saying that "spell sniper says attack roll, and green flame blade says melee attack roll, and since its different it doesnt work for that"

second thing, i can cast darkness, and when im in it, i can see out, but enemies cant see in/out unless they have an ability to do so.
the party is saying that even if you are in darkness/cant see, you still know if someone is next to you or what direction they are without making perception checks, and that being in darkness or not being able to see only gives disadvantage on attacks. which doesnt make sense, you try knowing where someone is in battle while hearing others clashing weapons and yelling without trying to perceive where they are...

and lastly, ioun stone of reserve, i cant see anywhere that says you cant have multiple of these, so as a warlock in darkness, i could have 2 or more ioun stones of reserve filled with shield spells ready to be casted, and yes i know they take an action each to throw.


if anyone could help clarify these issues, and show me sources that properly explain the rules, id be very happy :)

thanks for reading/helping!

[nickl_2000]

so as the title says, i need help on a few rules.

when playing last night, the party ran into a few issues.

so im a melee warlock, i use green flame blade with a whip and have spell sniper, which means i get to hit people 10 feet away with the cantrip, the issue we are having is, the other part of spell sniper says that "Your ranged spell attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover."
as i read it, green flame blade is a "ranged spell" (5 feet normally, 10 feet with spell sniper) but the party says it isnt, so therefore i can hide behind someone and use my cantrip without giving the enemy half cover.
they keep saying that "spell sniper says attack roll, and green flame blade says melee attack roll, and since its different it doesnt work for that"


The attack part of Green Flame Blade would not ignore cover because it isn't a ranged spell attack. The wording on the spell is


Make a melee attack with a weapon. On hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects and fire leaps to a different creature you can see within 5 feet of the original target. The fire's damage equals your spellcasting ability modifier.

At 5th level, the attack deals an extra 1d8 fire damage, and the flame deals 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. Both dice increase at 11th and 17th level.

See the bolded text here. You are making a melee attack and not a ranged spell attack to hit the person. The party is right about this.



I'll let other weigh in on the other two since those aren't as clear to me.

[leogobsin]

So as for the Green-Flame Blade/Spell Sniper interaction: attacks in 5e are categorized by two criteria: ranged vs melee and spell vs weapon. In general melee attacks are against targets close to you and ranged attacks are against targets further away and weapon attacks are anything where a physical object is doing damage (a sword, an arrow, a claw, etc) whereas spell attacks are anything where that's not the case. There are some general rules about what the difference is, but there's also exceptions (for instance melee attacks generally have a range of 5 or 10 feet, but Thorn Whip has a range of 30 feet and is a melee spell attack); but basically an effect tells you what kind of attack it is. Green Flame Blade calls for you to make a melee weapon attack, not a ranged spell attack, so it doesn't benefit from the ignoring cover feature of Spell Sniper.

As for the Darkness, quite frankly this is one of the areas where there seems to be the most argument in 5e and I don't know that I can give a definite answer.

For the Ioun stones, you could have more than one, but since all Ioun stones require attunement you could only have three at a time (and then couldn't be attuned to any other magic items).

[DeTess]

Regarding your second question ,going by pure RAW, you're not hidden unless you've taken the hide action, but they'd still be rolling with disadvantage to hit you.

You can also have multiple Ioun stones of atunement in the way you describe, but they require atunement, so you can never have more than 3 in sue at a time, and that would mean you can't atune any other magic items. They're also rare magic items, and therefore its usually difficult to get even one, let alone multiple.

Edit: shadow-monk'd. Also, regarding not being auto-hidden, this is indeed a contentious issue. I've presented the pure RAW reading as I know it, but its fine for a DM to rule it however they want. You should know that devils sight+Darkness is quite a cheesy combo (and downright broken if no one could target you with attacks at all), so it shouldn't come as much of a surprise that your table is less than happy about it.

[wolfboy_forever]

The attack part of Green Flame Blade would not ignore cover because it isn't a ranged spell attack. The wording on the spell is



See the bolded text here. You are making a melee attack and not a ranged spell attack to hit the person. The party is right about this.



I'll let other weigh in on the other two since those aren't as clear to me.




so green flame blade says this:

As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting modifier.

it says i am casting this spell, which is ranged i also make a melee attack, so normally if i made a melee attack behind someone the enemy would have cover, but since im casting this ranged spell that has me make an melee attack its giving me the benefit of ignoring half and three quarter cover.

[PhoenixPhyre]

1) ranged attack =/= attack at range > 5 feet. It's a specific thing, called out in the ability. So spell sniper extends the range but it's still a melee attack. Just like a giant's club (reach 10 feet) is still a melee attack.

2) by default, all darkness does is impose disadvantage on attack rolls against people you can't see. Of course, attacks against people who can't see you have advantage, so the two often cancel (that is, if both you and your opponent can't see through the darkness, you attack normally). If one of the two can see, they attack the other at advantage and are attacked at disadvantage.

Generally, to make someone lose track of you while in combat, you must take the Hide action (as an Action or a Bonus action depending on if you're a rogue or not) and succeed on the opposed stealth/perception check. Yes, this includes invisibility. Out of combat is another can of worms I have no intention of opening right now.

3) Yes, but...
3a) each is rare, meaning you're unlikely to find multiple of them. By default there is no magic mart you can buy items at.
3b) Even if you do, they're attunement-only, so you can have max 3 if you have no other attuned items.
3c) And as a warlock, you can only put spells in them up to character level 6 (since a 4th level slot won't fit and you don't have any lower ones). You'd need to have a friendly wizard/sorcerer willing to fill you up with slots.

[leogobsin]

so green flame blade says this:

As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting modifier.

it says i am casting this spell, which is ranged i also make a melee attack, so normally if i made a melee attack behind someone the enemy would have cover, but since im casting this ranged spell that has me make an melee attack its giving me the benefit of ignoring half and three quarter cover.

Just because you're casting a spell doesn't mean it's a spell attack. A spells description tells you what kind of attack roll, if any, you make. In this case it's a melee weapon attack, and Spell Sniper only ignores cover for ranged spell attacks.

[nickl_2000]

so green flame blade says this:

As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting modifier.

it says i am casting this spell, which is ranged i also make a melee attack, so normally if i made a melee attack behind someone the enemy would have cover, but since im casting this ranged spell that has me make an melee attack its giving me the benefit of ignoring half and three quarter cover.

Correct, you do cast a spell. However, the text of the spell clearly states to hit someone with it you are making a melee weapon attack (this is important because it allows for weapon damage to be added and sneak attacks to happen). The fact that there is a range on it is there to limit you to using non-reach weapons unless you have taken the Spell Sniper feat.

I get that you want it there, and if you DM agrees to it go for it. Sadly though, that is not how the spell in the book reads.

[wolfboy_forever]

ok makes sense about the ioun stones and attunment, the reason why i want multiple is that the game we are doing is a endless dungeon so fighting happens everyroom, and when you get to the next floor you can buy anything you have money for.

the darkness and devils sight is cheesy, but again its because we are fighting in every room and we need to cheese things for the enemies we are fighting, we would have wiped is it wasnt for me being able to attack in darkness in the last room. ( also fought a enemy who had darkness + devils sight combo, so dm is fine with the idea, atleast to throw at us)

[nickl_2000]

so green flame blade says this:

As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell’s range, otherwise the spell fails. On a hit, the target suffers the attack’s normal effects, and green fire leaps from the target to a different creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of it. The second creature takes fire damage equal to your spellcasting modifier.

it says i am casting this spell, which is ranged i also make a melee attack, so normally if i made a melee attack behind someone the enemy would have cover, but since im casting this ranged spell that has me make an melee attack its giving me the benefit of ignoring half and three quarter cover.

Also, let's make a comparison here.

Take Ray of Frost for example


Evocation cantrip
Casting Time 1 action
Range 60 feet
Components V S
Duration Instantaneous
Make a ranged spell attack. On hit, the target takes 1d8 cold damage, and its speed is reduced by 10 feet until the start of your next turn.

The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th, 11th, and 17th level.

In this is states it's a ranged spell attack specifically. So, ignoring the cover it applies.


Another example: Thorn Whip

Casting Time 1 action
Range 30 feet
Components V S M (Stem of a thorned plant)
Duration Instantaneous
Make a melee spell attack. On hit, the target takes 1d6 piercing damage, and if it's Large or smaller, you pull it up to 10 feet closer to you.

The damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th, 11th, and 17th level.

This spell, despite having a range of 30 feet makes a melee spell attack. Thus you don't ignore cover.



In all three cases here (Green Flame Blade, Thorn Whip, and Ray of Frost) the book specifically spells out whether it's a Ranged Spell attack, Melee Attack, or Melee Spell Attack. Unless the spell specifically says "ranged spell attack" you do not get to ignore cover.

[wolfboy_forever]

Correct, you do cast a spell. However, the text of the spell clearly states to hit someone with it you are making a melee weapon attack (this is important because it allows for weapon damage to be added and sneak attacks to happen). The fact that there is a range on it is there to limit you to using non-reach weapons unless you have taken the Spell Sniper feat.

I get that you want it there, and if you DM agrees to it go for it. Sadly though, that is not how the spell in the book reads.

well if that is the case i feel the wording should have been writen better, they should actually write "attack type: melee or spell ranged" so theres no confusion... oh well thanks for the help

[NaughtyTiger]

Unseen attackers and targets says
When you attack a target that you can't see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you're guessing the target's location or you're targeting a creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn't in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the GM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you guessed the target's location correctly.

So if they are within 5ft of you, they can hear your location: disadvantage
If it is further away or stealth... maybe they can't hear you... they pick a square... if you are in it, disadvantage
Otherwise... miss