Which build overall gets the most reliable melee dmg. per turn?

[samcifer]

So I'm looking over melee-focused classes and trying to find the best reliable damage output per turn, but feel a little lost. If I want to go this route, what classes/subclasses and/or feats would I want? Looking for single-target damage, btw. I'd be starting with lv. 10 for the character, from the looks of things so far in my current campaign.

[Nidgit]

Fighter goes all day, every day. Level 10 is a relative low point, but 11 puts you right back at the top of at-will damage. Of the subclasses, Champion is a bit dull but has no resource limiters and ends up quite strong, Battle Master is wonderfully versatile with excellent damage, and Eldritch Knight can make for strong offense or defense. Samurai is also quite good at higher levels when you can frequently get 4-5 attacks per turn, with advantage.

As far as non-Fighters go, Barbarian is also tanky and powerful. Zealot would be my top choice for damage- Berserker can outpower it in bursts but at the cost of Exhaustion.

Oh, and Great Weapon Mastery is your best friend for extra damage.

[Millface]

So I'm looking over melee-focused classes and trying to find the best reliable damage output per turn, but feel a little lost. If I want to go this route, what classes/subclasses and/or feats would I want? Looking for single-target damage, btw. I'd be starting with lv. 10 for the character, from the looks of things so far in my current campaign.

Consistently high DPR that starts ungodly huge and then levels out (but stays mid to top tier) around level 11 would be Bear Totem Barbarian that always attacks recklessly and takes the GWM feat. You can go straight up for brutal criticals and more rages/rage damage or swap to fighter after level 5 so that at 16 you get an extra attack + either battle master maneuvers or improved crit from champion. It's easy, only resource is rage, and it's steady. Resistance to all damage but psychic also make it a great tank.


For the best Nova? Hexblade/Paladin combination to about 10, making sure you get the paladin's Aura of Protection and extra attack at least, then Sorcerer for the second half. Smites for days, but more complicated because unlike the previous build you CAN run out of resource very quickly while doing your damage. Best way to play is save smites for critical hits only and you should make it through the day.

Once you decide between the two you can ask for more in depth but simply put those are the top dogs of melee damage, the competition has alot of trouble getting anywhere near their effectiveness. Straight rogues and fighters are viable, certainly, but being able to use the -5/+10 with GWM with a 75% chance to hit (reckless attack) adds so much damage it's silly, especially if you take Pole Arm mastery for the bonus attack. V Human Barbarian can have both feats online by level 4. Nobody, and I mean nobody can outdo that damage until level 11ish. And we all know Gish Pally/Sorcs are top tier, not much needs to be said there.

[LudicSavant]

One of the most common fallacies I see in these sorts of discussions is one I'll call the Resourceless Champion Fallacy. This fallacy can be used with classes and archetypes other than the Champion Fighter, but I see it most frequently used with regards to them.

The Resourceless Champion Fallacy basically claims that, well, Champions don't use up any resources, and are equally effective no matter how many encounters they've fought during the day.


Fighter goes all day

Champion is a bit dull but has no resource limiters

No, no they don't. All of the fighters have rest-limited resources, even the Champion. Action Surge, Second Wind, and Indomitable are all limited in their uses per rest. Not only that, but in a real game hit points are a very real limiting resource. If you get low on hit points, then someone in the party needs to spend resources to recover them or rest just as surely as a spellcaster who ran low on spell slots. And no, it doesn't count as your character being more resource efficient if someone else pays the resources for you.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons that "going nova" can sometimes be more resource-efficient than not doing so. If an enemy has less turns to do harmful things to you, you spend less resources undoing the effects that they inflicted on you.

I'll also add that in practical terms, reliability means more than just your ability to reliably hit an immobile training dummy who doesn't fight back. It also means that you will be able to attack in the first place reliably. That means, for example, that you are difficult to kite, lock down, or otherwise prevent from getting in and doing your melee thing in the first place. How well you can deal with things like enemies being ethereal, resistant, fast, flying, using CC, and so on and so forth is a measure of your reliability as a melee fighter in a real game.

[Skyblaze]

No, no they don't. All of the fighters have rest-limited resources, even the Champion. Action Surge, Second Wind, and Indomitable are all limited in their uses per rest. Not only that, but in a real game hit points are a very real limiting resource. If you get low on hit points, then someone in the party needs to spend resources to recover them or rest just as surely as a spellcaster who ran low on spell slots. And no, it doesn't count as your character being more resource efficient if someone else pays the resources for you.


I think he means in terms of their main attack. Not so much having unlimited everything...

[Nidgit]

One of the most common fallacies I see in these sorts of discussions is one I'll call the Resourceless Champion Fallacy. This fallacy can be used with classes and archetypes other than the Champion Fighter, but I see it most frequently used with regards to them.

The Resourceless Champion Fallacy basically claims that, well, Champions don't use up any resources, and are equally effective no matter how many encounters they've fought during the day.




No, no they don't. All of the fighters have rest-limited resources, even the Champion. Action Surge, Second Wind, and Indomitable are all limited in their uses per rest. Not only that, but in a real game hit points are a very real limiting resource. If you get low on hit points, then someone in the party needs to spend resources to recover them or rest just as surely as a spellcaster who ran low on spell slots. And no, it doesn't count as your character being more resource efficient if someone else pays the resources for you.

Incidentally, this is one of the reasons that "going nova" can sometimes be more resource-efficient than not doing so. If an enemy has less turns to do harmful things to you, you spend less resources undoing the effects that they inflicted on you.

I'll also add that in practical terms, reliability means more than just your ability to reliably hit an immobile training dummy who doesn't fight back. It also means that you will be able to attack in the first place reliably. That means, for example, that you are difficult to kite, lock down, or otherwise prevent from getting in and doing your melee thing in the first place. How well you can deal with things like enemies being ethereal, resistant, fast, flying, using CC, and so on and so forth is a measure of your reliability as a melee fighter in a real game.
What a nice, helpful, friendly answer. "Without allies, no character is capable of dealing high DPR consistently because they'll die." How useful! I'm glad you answered the original question.

The most resource-free PCs in 5e are some subclasses of Rogue, which rely on a number of other circumstances to put out high DPR. While that's fairly consistent, it's not guaranteed and eventually falls behind more front-line oriented classes like Fighter and Barbarian. I don't think that's what OP is looking for.

Every class needs some way to mitigate damage and those are all resource-dependent, so I think those essentially cancel out. At most levels, Fighters have the highest at-will damage and can do so without expending offensive resources if they so choose. Action Surge is an excellent ability on top of that, but it's also a scarce nova ability that shouldn't factor into DPR. And of the Fighter subclasses, Champion achieves the highest average DPR without expending additional resources. Others can surpass it but can't do so all the time. That's what I and everyone else say when the Champion is reliable and relatively independent of resources. It's shorthand. It's not a fallacy.

[LudicSavant]

What a nice, helpful, friendly answer. Why thank you. Though I get the sneaking suspicion you're being sarcastic, and taking disagreeing with your opinion and providing reasons why as rudeness. All I can tell you is that you are inferring a tone which isn't there.


"Without allies, no character is capable of dealing high DPR consistently because they'll die." How useful! Please do not put words in my mouth. That is neither what I said nor what I meant.

[samcifer]

Please stop. I want answers, not a flame war. Thanks to those who have offered helpful advice so far as well as in the future. 😊

[Derpaligtr]

I would say Strength Arcane Trickster Rogue with shield mastery. Maybe 3 levels of champion in white room scenario.

Being able to use expertise to drop pretty much anything not immune to the ground so that you get advantage on the attack is amazing as a bonus action.

Enemies don't get advantage against me like with the barbarian, they can't use the same tactics against me (expertise laughs), they can't run away, and by the time I get to higher levels I will have the Owl familiar to give me advantage when I'm not tripping an enemy.

I can also grab invisibility or other spells but I don't really need to.

Uncanny Dodge means that I'm not getting hurt as much when my target strikes back.

I can run away or get close to almost any enemy with onpy the monk giving me a run for my money.

So, you want reliable damage? Rogue.

[CTurbo]

Level 10 Dex Champion with Archery AND Dueling or TWF would be great in melee or ranged.

Level 10 Swashbuckler should be able to pull off 7d6+dex every single turn all day every day

Level 10 Half-Orc Barbarian with GWM and Greataxe would be great too. Make it champion 3/Barb 7 would be even better.

Draconic Sorcerer 1/swashbuckler 9 that goes unarmored and spams Booming Blade every turn would be awesome.

[Derpaligtr]

Level 10 Dex Champion with Archery AND Dueling or TWF would be great in melee or ranged.

Level 10 Swashbuckler should be able to pull off 7d6+dex every single turn all day every day

Level 10 Half-Orc Barbarian with GWM and Greataxe would be great too. Make it champion 3/Barb 7 would be even better.

Draconic Sorcerer 1/swashbuckler 9 that goes unarmored and spams Booming Blade every turn would be awesome.

When DM'ed correctly, Archery style isn't really a straight up +2.

Cover
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.


Tables seem to always ignore this. If a table is ignoring this, they should remove the Archery style too.

So, if being legit, Archery isn't more accurate than melee. Melee is more accurate as you won't usually have to even think about cover.

[ImproperJustice]

An earlier poster mentioned that Champions run out of hit points, without mentioning their built in hp regeneration at level 17, which is ultimately what makes that Subclass so strong in the late game.

But I hear that we don’t need a flame war.

To answer your post best:

Fighters generally excell at consistant damage with good defense and are just solid all around.

Barbarians when raging are better than fighter at tanking and hurting, but slightly fall behind when that resource gets low.

Monks can shell out a lot of hurt with some good control and fancy moves, but need to stay mobile or they run the risk of getting drilled.

Paladins and Rangers rely on spell slots to do amazing nova type strikes (Paladins) or consistant steady damage (hunters mark, hail of thorns, colossus slayer or horde breaker, snake pet).

I think Fighter or Barbarian is going to get you closest to what you want.

[samcifer]

Level 10 Half-Orc Barbarian with GWM and Greataxe would be great too. Make it champion 3/Barb 7 would be even better.

Our group has a player running this build as champion 3, bear totem barb 5 as we're all currently at lv. 8

[samcifer]

Monks can shell out a lot of hurt with some good control and fancy moves, but need to stay mobile or they run the risk of getting drilled.

I've considered playing a monk with 3 lv. of Bear Totem barb for added defenses and a bit of extra hp.

Another idea was 3 lv. of swashbuckler rogue for a graceful (as well as relatively painless) escape.

[Blood of Gaea]

Brute Fighter if UA is allowed, otherwise I would go with Battlemaster, assuming short rests can be acquired.

Once you get a decent amount of rages per long rest, any Barbarian will also be very consistent, especially with PAM. I'd probably go Zealot for the extra damage once per turn and being able to continue putting damage out after "death".

A dual wielding Swashbuckler can also be pretty consistent as well.

[Citan]

So I'm looking over melee-focused classes and trying to find the best reliable damage output per turn, but feel a little lost. If I want to go this route, what classes/subclasses and/or feats would I want? Looking for single-target damage, btw. I'd be starting with lv. 10 for the character, from the looks of things so far in my current campaign.
Hi!
If you want a character that...
1. Needs as little as possible action-economy wise to reach maximum potential as fast as possible in fight...
2. Can sustain this all day, every day...
For a level 10 character...

Your best shot is Hexblade Warlock 1 / Arcane Trickster 9.
Start as an Half-Elf with 17 CHA, pick Elven Accuracy and either Grappler or Shield Master depending on whether your DM
- would allow bonus action attack when spending Attack action on a grapple (-> Grappler if yes, otherwise no),
- would allow Shield Master's bonus action to be taken before Attack (RAW, not RAI per Crawford)
- and whether you have other friends that would profit from prone advantage (advantage Shield Master) or in contrary would hamper them because they use ranged (advantage Grappler).

The idea here is to take advantage (duh) of Rogue's Expertise in Athletics to use Grapple or Shove to generate advantage.
Then, thanks to Elven Accuracy stack and Hexblade's "use CHA for attacks", you'll sure-hit anything below AC 20 at your level, and still decent chance to hit AC above.

This is the best ever option you could ever find, because there is no action economy cost nor resource cost involved.
It also scales up to a decent point since you can Enlarge yourself if needed to still grapple/shove one size bigger.
The only thing it requires to work with is either a RAW (for Shield Master) or lenient (Grappler) DM.

Also, neither feat is really necessary if you plan on teamworking with another melee guy: have one Shove prone, the next Grapple, now the enemy is stuck until it dies. :) It does require some coordination, and added tactical thinking because you don't want the target creature to get its turn between you, but it frees up how you make your character. :)
Best partner for that would obviously be a Wolf Barbarian (except if you're the below-mentioned Devil Sight+Darkness Warlock). ^^

---
If none is an option then...
A/ replace Rogue 9 by Swords or Whispers Bard 9.
Both get Expertise, both can get Haste on next level through Magic Secrets, and Swords Bard gets built-in Extra Attack while Whispers get "similar to SA" damage on the way there so you can definitely make a big dent into enemies.

B/ replace Rogue 9 by Rogue 1 / Divine Soul Sorcerer 8, with Grappler feat and Quicken metamagic.

The idea both cases is finding a way to allow a grapple/shove first thing you do in turn to limit the action economy loss you'd incur otherwise.
But we already enter the "resource-using" ideas here, although those are fairly sustainable for a level 10 character.

--------
And when you enter this realm, it's honestly hard to beat any build relying on a Warlock 3 / whatever 7 with the Devil's Sight + Darkness + Elven Accuracy combo. It's reliable, and sustainable enough for most days especially if someone in party has Rope Trick / Catnap / Leomun's Tiny Hut.

In particular, a Warlock 3 / Fighter 2 / Devotion Paladin 5 (or Warlock 4 / Paladin 6 if you don't care about spending first turn on using Channel Divinity) would be a monster offense-wise: stacking Sacred Weapon on top of already maxed stat (since the same) means at level 10 you'd get a +14 to hit. Before anything else like Bless/Elemental Weapon or advantage.
Edit: missed your bit about single-target damage: replace Devotion by Vengeance, even better for you.

You could also go for a Warlock 2 / Bard 1 / Divine Soul Sorcerer 7 instead: using a Quickened Faerie Fire to open encounter (advantage for everyone without risk of bothering with Darkness) then follow with Elven Accuracy.
This is another fairly sustainable trick (one 1st level slot and 2 SP per encounter) that does not harm your action economy too much (thanks to Quicken).

And finally, if you don't care about resource consumption neither action economy, then the best would obviously be...
Warlock 1 / Devotion Paladin 3 stacked with Elven Accuracy and whatever way of generating advantage you fancy (with an obvious good choice being Warlock 7 for Greater Invisibility, so it's viable as a level 10 character plus you're totally a short-rest guy, next best being Sorcerer so at least you "only" spend one turn getting ready -Sacred Weapon as action, Greater Invisibility Quickened).

Final disclaimer: for a level 10 character, you can count on tactics using up to 2nd level spells to be sustainable in general. So while I didn't read the thread (yet), I'm sure there are plenty ideas that while consuming resources are perfectly valid suggestions. :)

When DM'ed correctly, Archery style isn't really a straight up +2.

Cover
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.


Tables seem to always ignore this. If a table is ignoring this, they should remove the Archery style too.

So, if being legit, Archery isn't more accurate than melee. Melee is more accurate as you won't usually have to even think about cover.
I'm sorry but both statements you made are inaccurate.

First, whether DM applies "creatures as cover" properly or not, Archery is still a +2 bonus. You can turn it as "it just means that it is enough to offset a malus that the player would have otherwise suffered" but it still ends as a better bonus to hit than if player rolled without the style.

Second, cover applies *also* on melee weapon attacks, although obviously situations where someone is beyond a cover are usually more limited, especially covers generated by creatures (however tables/chairs/half-walls are fair game, yet I see even less people respect it in games than covers "for arrows" ^^).

So, there will be situations in which archery is still more accurate than melee, simply because while in both cases environment sets up a malus for you, archers do have an option to reduce their magnitude.
(And when you in addition to that pick Sharpshooter, then it's a straight up big win for archery ;))


I've considered playing a monk with 3 lv. of Bear Totem barb for added defenses and a bit of extra hp.

Another idea was 3 lv. of swashbuckler rogue for a graceful (as well as relatively painless) escape.
Well, confer my point above, if you don't mind spending some resources for that, a Monk with Elven Accuracy and Mobile would certainly be someone to be feared, if/when/once you apply Stunning Strike.
Kensei's 11th feature boost accuracy by a very nice amount.
Open Hand with one Rogue for Expertise could start with a Shove then pummel at ease.
4E's Fangs of Fire Snake let you hit without risking OA in the first place.
And you could trade "close to 11th feature" to instead grab one level of Druid or Cleric for added goodies.

[Derpaligtr]

Hi!
If you want a character that...
1. Needs as little as possible action-economy wise to reach maximum potential as fast as possible in fight...
2. Can sustain this all day, every day...
For a level 10 character...

Your best shot is Hexblade Warlock 1 / Arcane Trickster 9.
Start as an Half-Elf with 17 CHA, pick Elven Accuracy and either Grappler or Shield Master depending on whether your DM
- would allow bonus action attack when spending Attack action on a grapple (-> Grappler if yes, otherwise no),
- would allow Shield Master's bonus action to be taken before Attack (RAW, not RAI per Crawford)
- and whether you have other friends that would profit from prone advantage (advantage Shield Master) or in contrary would hamper them because they use ranged (advantage Grappler).

The idea here is to take advantage (duh) of Rogue's Expertise in Athletics to use Grapple or Shove to generate advantage.
Then, thanks to Elven Accuracy stack and Hexblade's "use CHA for attacks", you'll sure-hit anything below AC 20 at your level, and still decent chance to hit AC above.

This is the best ever option you could ever find, because there is no action economy cost nor resource cost involved.
It also scales up to a decent point since you can Enlarge yourself if needed to still grapple/shove one size bigger.
The only thing it requires to work with is either a RAW (for Shield Master) or lenient (Grappler) DM.

Also, neither feat is really necessary if you plan on teamworking with another melee guy: have one Shove prone, the next Grapple, now the enemy is stuck until it dies. :) It does require some coordination, and added tactical thinking because you don't want the target creature to get its turn between you, but it frees up how you make your character. :)
Best partner for that would obviously be a Wolf Barbarian (except if you're the below-mentioned Devil Sight+Darkness Warlock). ^^

---
If none is an option then...
A/ replace Rogue 9 by Swords or Whispers Bard 9.
Both get Expertise, both can get Haste on next level through Magic Secrets, and Swords Bard gets built-in Extra Attack while Whispers get "similar to SA" damage on the way there so you can definitely make a big dent into enemies.

B/ replace Rogue 9 by Rogue 1 / Divine Soul Sorcerer 8, with Grappler feat and Quicken metamagic.

The idea both cases is finding a way to allow a grapple/shove first thing you do in turn to limit the action economy loss you'd incur otherwise.
But we already enter the "resource-using" ideas here, although those are fairly sustainable for a level 10 character.

--------
And when you enter this realm, it's honestly hard to beat any build relying on a Warlock 3 / whatever 7 with the Devil's Sight + Darkness + Elven Accuracy combo. It's reliable, and sustainable enough for most days especially if someone in party has Rope Trick / Catnap / Leomun's Tiny Hut.

In particular, a Warlock 3 / Fighter 2 / Devotion Paladin 5 (or Warlock 4 / Paladin 6 if you don't care about spending first turn on using Channel Divinity) would be a monster offense-wise: stacking Sacred Weapon on top of already maxed stat (since the same) means at level 10 you'd get a +14 to hit. Before anything else like Bless/Elemental Weapon or advantage.
Edit: missed your bit about single-target damage: replace Devotion by Vengeance, even better for you.

You could also go for a Warlock 2 / Bard 1 / Divine Soul Sorcerer 7 instead: using a Quickened Faerie Fire to open encounter (advantage for everyone without risk of bothering with Darkness) then follow with Elven Accuracy.
This is another fairly sustainable trick (one 1st level slot and 2 SP per encounter) that does not harm your action economy too much (thanks to Quicken).

And finally, if you don't care about resource consumption neither action economy, then the best would obviously be...
Warlock 1 / Devotion Paladin 3 stacked with Elven Accuracy and whatever way of generating advantage you fancy (with an obvious good choice being Warlock 7 for Greater Invisibility, so it's viable as a level 10 character plus you're totally a short-rest guy, next best being Sorcerer so at least you "only" spend one turn getting ready -Sacred Weapon as action, Greater Invisibility Quickened).

Final disclaimer: for a level 10 character, you can count on tactics using up to 2nd level spells to be sustainable in general. So while I didn't read the thread (yet), I'm sure there are plenty ideas that while consuming resources are perfectly valid suggestions. :)

I'm sorry but both statements you made are inaccurate.

First, whether DM applies "creatures as cover" properly or not, Archery is still a +2 bonus. You can turn it as "it just means that it is enough to offset a malus that the player would have otherwise suffered" but it still ends as a better bonus to hit than if player rolled without the style.

Second, cover applies *also* on melee weapon attacks, although obviously situations where someone is beyond a cover are usually more limited, especially covers generated by creatures (however tables/chairs/half-walls are fair game, yet I see even less people respect it in games than covers "for arrows" ^^).

So, there will be situations in which archery is still more accurate than melee, simply because while in both cases environment sets up a malus for you, archers do have an option to reduce their magnitude.
(And when you in addition to that pick Sharpshooter, then it's a straight up big win for archery ;))


Well, confer my point above, if you don't mind spending some resources for that, a Monk with Elven Accuracy and Mobile would certainly be someone to be feared, if/when/once you apply Stunning Strike.
Kensei's 11th feature boost accuracy by a very nice amount.
Open Hand with one Rogue for Expertise could start with a Shove then pummel at ease.
4E's Fangs of Fire Snake let you hit without risking OA in the first place.
And you could trade "close to 11th feature" to instead grab one level of Druid or Cleric for added goodies.

Nothing I said was innacurate. If you want to not use the Rules of thr game, that's fine, but Archery style is specifically there to counter the +2 a lot of creatures will have from friends and foes.

There used to be a -2 penalty to shooting into melee, they turned it into a +2 AC.

Many many many DMs ignore the cover rules, so they should remove archery fighting style as well.

Play with houserules all tou want, but you should at least make it fair.

[Daphne]

I'd recommed the Samurai from Xanathar's Guide: at level 10 you can use Fighting Spirit at least once every fight and you also have tons of temporary HP. The proficiency on Wisdom saves is great too. Fighters also get Extra Attack (2) on level 11, which is a big increase in DPR.

Go either Half-Orc with Great Weapon Fighting Style and Great Weapon Master feat or Wood Elf with Archery Style and Sharpshooter feat (and maybe Crossbow Expert too).

[bid]

Nothing I said was innacurate. If you want to not use the Rules of thr game, that's fine, but Archery style is specifically there to counter the +2 a lot of creatures will have from friends and foes.
Except a Str champion will use archery when nobody can reach melee. Which make the -2 inoperative.
And saying that "not getting a -2" is not the same as "getting a +2" is nitpicking with a microscope.

Fairness is not a one-way street, contrary to your belief.

[BoxANT]

Fighter or Barbarian with Polearm Master & Great Weapon Fighter.

However, if you want something a little different...

Fighter (Eldritch Knight) human (v)
S20, D8, C14, I10, W12, A14
1. Magic Initiate (warlock : Hex, Eldritch Blast & Friends)
4. War Caster
6. +2 Str
8. +2 Str

For EK spells take: Find Familiar, Shield, Absorb Elements, and eventually Blur.

Fighting style Duelist, with 20 Str & Hex, does good damage, and have a 20 AC. Allows for ranged damage with Eldritch Blast & Hex

[Deathtongue]

One aspect of 'most reliable melee damage' that gets overlooked in this discussion is how often they get to even apply their melee damage. Having 80 round-by-round DPR is all well and good, but if you can't even hit your opponent (because they're invisible, or they're behind an obstacle, or they have an aura of fear, or they're flying) then you can't really say that the damage is reliable, now can you? 5E D&D, especially in the later levels, loves giving monsters ways to throw monkey wrenches into your plan to wail on them with melee attacks.

To that end, I'm going to have to say that at around level 7 or so, Bladesinger has the most reliable melee damage. They have a number of ways to bypass or shut out game effects that would stop other melee buttkickers cold, whether we're talking about damage immunity, closing the distance, tearing down obstacles, pinpointing annoying enemies, or just being able to fly. Their numbers short of Simulacrum aren't going to impress a crowd who views GMW Polearm Master Barbarians as the baseline, but they'll have more situations -- especially as the game goes on -- where they actually get to do damage under their own power.

[bid]

Fighter or Barbarian with Polearm Master & Great Weapon Fighter.
4. War Caster
Warcaster is mostly pointless with 2H weapons.

[BoxANT]

Warcaster is mostly pointless with 2H weapons.

War Caster was for the 2nd build, an Eldritch Knight with Sword & Board.

That being said, a 2H does not allow for spell casting (unless it has versatile property), not all DMs care, but it is RAW.

[LudicSavant]

One aspect of 'most reliable melee damage' that gets overlooked in this discussion is how often they get to even apply their melee damage. Having 80 round-by-round DPR is all well and good, but if you can't even hit your opponent (because they're invisible, or they're behind an obstacle, or they have an aura of fear, or they're flying) then you can't really say that the damage is reliable, now can you? 5E D&D, especially in the later levels, loves giving monsters ways to throw monkey wrenches into your plan to wail on them with melee attacks.

To that end, I'm going to have to say that at around level 7 or so, Bladesinger has the most reliable melee damage. They have a number of ways to bypass or shut out game effects that would stop other melee buttkickers cold, whether we're talking about damage immunity, closing the distance, tearing down obstacles, pinpointing annoying enemies, or just being able to fly. Their numbers short of Simulacrum aren't going to impress a crowd who views GMW Polearm Master Barbarians as the baseline, but they'll have more situations -- especially as the game goes on -- where they actually get to do damage under their own power.

This is a very important point to bring up. In the past I have tracked total damage contributions of party members over the course of sessions at various tables, and I noticed one of the biggest factors that was making certain characters unreliable damage dealers.

While these characters were, in theory, among the highest regular Damage Per Turn dealers against training dummies... they had trouble actually getting in to deal DPR in some situations, which led to them falling behind in contribution overall. They would be spending turns having to Dash, or being stuck in CC or difficult terrain, or having their movement interrupted, or being unable to locate a hidden enemy, or even just getting less turns relative to Team Monster due to a lower initiative roll. Even if this only happens occasionally, it still works out to a huge loss in party contribution.

So, when building a melee character who not just can do high melee damage but can do it reliably, you should ask yourself:
- What do I do if my enemy is fast, and chooses to move backwards and shoot me?
- What do I do if the combat starts with the enemy more than 50 feet away? Can I still get into range and do my thing on round 1?
- How high is my initiative?
- How able am I to get surprise, or get surprised?
- How able am I to counter major no-sell effects, such as various defensive spells, or Polearm Sentinels interrupting my movement?
- How easy is it to debuff me in such a way that my damage combo stops working well?

[Hooligan]

Nothing I said was innacurate. If you want to not use the Rules of thr game, that's fine, but Archery style is specifically there to counter the +2 a lot of creatures will have from friends and foes.

There used to be a -2 penalty to shooting into melee, they turned it into a +2 AC.

Many many many DMs ignore the cover rules, so they should remove archery fighting style as well.

Play with houserules all tou want, but you should at least make it fair.

Cover is entirely at DM discretion while the archery bonus is always active.

Nowhere is it explicitly stated that the bonus of the archery fighting style is meant to offset anything. Advocating for the removal of the latter if the former is ignored/deemphasized is flim-flam.

[CTurbo]

Any high Dex character capable of switching in between ranged and melee is going to be able pull off very consistently dpr under most conditions. Characters that can get archery + dueling or TWF are even more consistent whether you are a Champion or a Fighter/ Ranger multiclass.

Highly mobile Str characters like Barbs with Mobile can make up the lack of ranged options to an extent.

Rogues who dip Fighter or Ranger for Archey are especially consistent. Non Swashbuckler Archer Rogues should easily be able to get sneak attack most rounds.

I actually think Monks are under-rated in the dpr department. Being able to pull off 3-4 attacks per round all day every day as early as level 5 is great. Especially once Dex is maxed.

[bid]

War Caster was for the 2nd build, an Eldritch Knight with Sword & Board.
Right, sorry.


That being said, a 2H does not allow for spell casting (unless it has versatile property), not all DMs care, but it is RAW.
It does, as per errata.
Two-Handed (p. 147). This property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it.

[Citan]

One aspect of 'most reliable melee damage' that gets overlooked in this discussion is how often they get to even apply their melee damage. Having 80 round-by-round DPR is all well and good, but if you can't even hit your opponent (because they're invisible, or they're behind an obstacle, or they have an aura of fear, or they're flying) then you can't really say that the damage is reliable, now can you? 5E D&D, especially in the later levels, loves giving monsters ways to throw monkey wrenches into your plan to wail on them with melee attacks.

To that end, I'm going to have to say that at around level 7 or so, Bladesinger has the most reliable melee damage. They have a number of ways to bypass or shut out game effects that would stop other melee buttkickers cold, whether we're talking about damage immunity, closing the distance, tearing down obstacles, pinpointing annoying enemies, or just being able to fly. Their numbers short of Simulacrum aren't going to impress a crowd who views GMW Polearm Master Barbarians as the baseline, but they'll have more situations -- especially as the game goes on -- where they actually get to do damage under their own power.


This is a very important point to bring up. In the past I have tracked total damage contributions of party members over the course of sessions at various tables, and I noticed one of the biggest factors that was making certain characters unreliable damage dealers.

While these characters were, in theory, among the highest regular Damage Per Turn dealers against training dummies... they had trouble actually getting in to deal DPR in some situations, which led to them falling behind in contribution overall. They would be spending turns having to Dash, or being stuck in CC or difficult terrain, or having their movement interrupted, or being unable to locate a hidden enemy, or even just getting less turns relative to Team Monster due to a lower initiative roll. Even if this only happens occasionally, it still works out to a huge loss in party contribution.

So, when building a melee character who not just can do high melee damage but can do it reliably, you should ask yourself:
- What do I do if my enemy is fast, and chooses to move backwards and shoot me?
- What do I do if the combat starts with the enemy more than 50 feet away? Can I still get into range and do my thing on round 1?
- How high is my initiative?
- How able am I to get surprise, or get surprised?
- How able am I to counter major no-sell effects, such as various defensive spells, or Polearm Sentinels interrupting my movement?
- How easy is it to debuff me in such a way that my damage combo stops working well?
Very true, thanks for pointing that out (I usually bring
the topic when discussing melee, but too hasty to answer in this thread).
Sadly this extremely important factor is rarely taken into account when discussing builds around here. ^^

It's one of the reasons that make any "built-in gish" as the suggested Bladesinger shine. Wonder how I could forget that one although I love it so much? ^^
Also why Monk get much better in later levels than other martials, especially 4E, once again because of mobility.

In both cases though, this particular efficiency rely on resources that are limited in amount. In case of spells, there is also the matter of keeping concentration. Which leads in turn to more investment.
Can definitely be worth it though.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one around here loving a Rogue 2(later 3) (Expertise in Grappling + Cunning Action) / Bladesinger 7+. ;)

And also one of the reasons for a STR-based martial character to go dual-wielding style except if Monk (just too redondant in melee) and Fighter (rules about drawing will undermine you after level 11, even with the related feat). Ability to seamlessly switch between melee and ranged (although very short unless Sharpshooter) is of considerable value.

[BoxANT]

It does, as per errata.
Two-Handed (p. 147). This property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it.

Good to know, but if you're an Eldritch Knight with a 2H, and are attacking, to cast Shield, War Caster is useful.

[Xetheral]

So I'm looking over melee-focused classes and trying to find the best reliable damage output per turn, but feel a little lost. If I want to go this route, what classes/subclasses and/or feats would I want? Looking for single-target damage, btw. I'd be starting with lv. 10 for the character, from the looks of things so far in my current campaign.

Can you please clarify what you mean by "reliable"? Do you want the highest average damage? The highest minimum damage? The highest chance of doing at least X damage? The maximum damage that has minimal variation?

For example, which do you consider to have more "reliable" damage:

Two 84% chances of dealing 9-16 damage. (Avg 21, low variance)
Three 35% chances of doing 16-27 damage. (Avg 23, high variance)

[bid]

Good to know, but if you're an Eldritch Knight with a 2H, and are attacking, to cast Shield, War Caster is useful.
Erm, yeah.
I've never seen a creature with sentinel, nor a DM that uses it as an interrupt.

I'll take my chances and grab skilled. Hopefully I'll get more use out of it.

[Sigreid]

Depends on a lot of factors. If you are likely to have a magic weapon with a damage rider (+ to damage, Flametongue, etc.) fighters will start making much better use of it as they start getting more attacks than everyone else. people sometimes overlook that the champion fighter's improved crit sets the crit range lower and a crit is always a hit.

In the end, if I'm only worrying about damage output in melee, I'm probably going to multi-class barbarian and champion fighter.

[nickl_2000]

Consistent and reliable? I would say a fighter archer with SS and XBE. At all levels you will be making a lot of attacks with a +2 to hit and you can drop some serious damage with sharphooter. It's consistent, pretty easy to hit almost all the time, and pretty darn easy to set up.

[samcifer]

Can you please clarify what you mean by "reliable"?

Consistent damage and accuracy is what I mean. Hitting as much as I can while not sacrificing too mch damage for the sake of accuracy

[Legendairy]

Consistent and reliable? I would say a fighter archer with SS and XBE. At all levels you will be making a lot of attacks with a +2 to hit and you can drop some serious damage with sharphooter. It's consistent, pretty easy to hit almost all the time, and pretty darn easy to set up.

Not exactly a melee build as the OP asked tho :-P

[stoutstien]

Boring but champion fighter would fit the bill. Extended crit= extended hit so there's that plus four attacks or five if you use Pam or crit with gwm (which you will....alot) heck why not both you can cap out on strength get Wis save and still pick up both those feats.

[samcifer]

Level 10 Swashbuckler should be able to pull off 7d6+dex every single turn all day every day

I think you mean 5d6 + 1d(weapon die)+dex. Not sure where you're getting 7d6 from because SA damage at lv. 10 rogue is only 5d6

[tieren]

Cover is entirely at DM discretion while the archery bonus is always active.

Nowhere is it explicitly stated that the bonus of the archery fighting style is meant to offset anything. Advocating for the removal of the latter if the former is ignored/deemphasized is flim-flam.

You both miss the point, archers take sharpshooter feat which allows them to disregard cover and always get the +2.

[Blood of Gaea]

I think you mean 5d6 + 1d(weapon die)+dex. Not sure where you're getting 7d6 from because SA damage at lv. 10 rogue is only 5d6
2d6 from dual wielded short swords?

[samcifer]

2d6 from dual wielded short swords?

Oh, okay. Hadn't considered dw.

[samcifer]

Oh, okay. Hadn't considered dw.

Actually, if I go swashbuckler 8 / Ranger 2, I can dual wield 2 rapiers (with the dw feat) for 1d8+dex+4d6 Sa, then another 1d8+dex (or add the SA to the second one if the first attack misses, and I could still walk away from them via swashbuckler without worry of having used up my bonus action for the second attack. I kind of like that route as well as that it also gives me two spells to use, such as for Hunter's Mark and Goodberry.

[Blood of Gaea]

Actually, if I go swashbuckler 8 / Ranger 2, I can dual wield 2 rapiers (with the dw feat) for 1d8+dex+4d6 Sa, then another 1d8+dex (or add the SA to the second one if the first attack misses, and I could still walk away from them via swashbuckler without worry of having used up my bonus action for the second attack. I kind of like that route as well as that it also gives me two spells to use, such as for Hunter's Mark and Goodberry.
If you're taking 2 Ranger I would strongly suggest thinking about taking a 3rd, some of the abilities can be rather useful.

[samcifer]

If you're taking 2 Ranger I would strongly suggest thinking about taking a 3rd, some of the abilities can be rather useful.

I'd most likely do so at lv. 11. Not sure which ranger subclass would be best for this build, though...


Edit: Well... Hunter for Colossus Slayer would be a great add-on to the second DW attack. All in all, though, I'd probably only go to Ranger 5 and the rest as Swashbuckler.

[samcifer]

Another way I could do it would be to start off with Ranger and go Hunter 5, selecting Colossus Slayer and DW fighting style (with the DW feat so I can DW a pair of rapiers) so I can get 2 attacks per turn as well as the DW bonus action attack. Then from lvs 6 - 10, I'd go Swashbuckler Rogue to get up to 3d6 sneak attack dice. This would give me 3 attacks per turn with rapiers for:

1d8+dex (x3) + 1d8 CS dmg + 3d6 SA dmg (and +1d6 Hunter's Mark dmg. to boot) per turn. This would be a bare minimum of 23 dmg per turn with a +5 dex mod and assuming I rolled a 1 on every die. If I get half the max per die, that'd equal around 43 dmg per turn, which with a smiting paladin using GWM, 2 attacks and 2 lv. 1 spell slots would average less than 5 less dmg per turn.

[CTurbo]

Another way I could do it would be to start off with Ranger and go Hunter 5, selecting Colossus Slayer and DW fighting style (with the DW feat so I can DW a pair of rapiers) so I can get 2 attacks per turn as well as the DW bonus action attack. Then from lvs 6 - 10, I'd go Swashbuckler Rogue to get up to 3d6 sneak attack dice. This would give me 3 attacks per turn with rapiers for:

1d8+dex (x3) + 1d8 CS dmg + 3d6 SA dmg (and +1d6 Hunter's Mark dmg. to boot) per turn. This would be a bare minimum of 23 dmg per turn with a +5 dex mod and assuming I rolled a 1 on every die. If I get half the max per die, that'd equal around 43 dmg per turn, which with a smiting paladin using GWM, 2 attacks and 2 lv. 1 spell slots would average less than 5 less dmg per turn.

Great build

[samcifer]

Great build

And this build would end up doing higher damage than a smite-based GWM build because of the potential to get up to 8d6 SA damage if I went Hunter 5 / Swashbuckler 15.

I think that with max dex, 2 +3 Rapiers, Hunter's Mark activated on a previous turn, Colossus Slayer on the second or third attack and 8d6 SA damage, I'd be looking at (assuming I rolled an average of 3 on d6s and 4 on d8s, I'd be doing an average of 73 damage per turn, assuming all three attacks hit.

[samcifer]

Draconic Sorcerer 1/swashbuckler 9 that goes unarmored and spams Booming Blade every turn would be awesome.

I looked into that, but the SCAG cantrips don't really seem to add that much damage because GFB transfers the extra damage to another target within 5ft., which isn't likely to happen often, and the BB damage can be negated by switching to a ranged attack while holding still. Neither seem worth the effort to me, which is why I looked until I discovered the Hunter/rouge combo.

[GlenSmash!]

I'd say a level 14+ Raging and Recklessly Attacking Zealot has a great shot.

[samcifer]

I'd say a level 14+ Raging and Recklessly Attacking Zealot has a great shot.

Well, that'd be 2x str+1d10 or 2d6 with a -5 penalty. You'd do an average of 30 (10+10+5x2)+5 or 6+1d6+7per turn, so that'd be only 42 or 43 dmg per turn assuming that you don't roll any crits.

A Hunter5/rogue 9 with FW would be doing 1d8+dex x3+1d8+5d6 (and+3d6 with Hunter's Mark) for am average of 15 (+5 dex mod x 3)+12+4+9+9 for a total of 40 or 49 per turn, so the HM would make this one do more damage, so I can see your point.

These calculations are both assuming that you're not using and weapons that give a damage bonus of their own, in which case the Hunter/rogue build would edge the barbarian out by +1 to +3 more dmg per turn.

I'm also assuming your reason for going lv. 14 on the zealot is only to protect against dying, right?

[samcifer]

However, a Vengeance pal 6/Hexblade 4 with the Pact of the Blade gets 8 spell slots for smiting (4 each of lvs 1 and 2). If you go GWM with a Great Axe if you make it your pact weapon, you can get:

1d12+cha(5)+10 x2 + 2d8 or 3d8 smite dmg. per attack + 20 (GWM) + 10 (cha x2) + 8 or 12)(smite) dmg. for 40 to 44 dmg per turn; 46/50 if you cast Hex on them first. The downside is that you have to use up spell slots and take +5 to your attack rolls to get the extra +20 dmg. True you could go elf or half-elf for Elven Accuracy and hit them with Enmity to get 3d20 per attack roll, which isn't too bad.

Edit: Oh man, I then considered adding in 3 levels of Sorcerer to get Quickened metamagic and using Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blase for a potential extra 39 force dmg on average as a bonus action in the same turn (Hex having been cast on a previous turn).

Edit #2: Oops! Forgot about the extra dmg from hexblade curse. At lv. 10, that'll be an extra +4 dmg per hit, so that'd actually be 50/56 dmg from the above combo and if I did the quickened EB, that'd be another +12 dmg. for an average of 51dmg. extra.

[MeeposFire]

You both miss the point, archers take sharpshooter feat which allows them to disregard cover and always get the +2.

Actually I was going to mention this but it actually supports Hooligans point because that feat eliminates cover bonuses with archery and if the archery fighter style was designed specifically to eliminate cover then the feat would not need to do that.

From my position it looks more like the designers wanted to make a fighting style with a very broad benefit and that it overcomes cover but is not really designed specifically to do that. Sharpshooter on the other hand is specifically designed to eliminate cover as one of its core functions and on top of that was designed specifically to work in tandem with the archery style which tells me that the designers certainly did not see archery style as being specifically for eliminating cover.

As for SCAG cantrips I would only recommend them in this idea (going more reliable) if you take 7 levels of EK fighter since then you can make an attack as a bonus action which means you can get a second chance at sneak attack. With only one attack via cantrip your damage if you hit will be high (remember SCAG cantrips give bonus damage on the initial hit along with the bonus conditional damage) but you will usually only have one attack so it is all or nothing which is not what I would call reliable. Having a second attempt at getting good damage out sounds much more reliable to me.

[CTurbo]

I looked into that, but the SCAG cantrips don't really seem to add that much damage because GFB transfers the extra damage to another target within 5ft., which isn't likely to happen often, and the BB damage can be negated by switching to a ranged attack while holding still. Neither seem worth the effort to me, which is why I looked until I discovered the Hunter/rouge combo.


Well I have played this build and I can tell you is will reliably put out some very consistent damage.

At level 11, with a Rapier, Booming Blade does 3d8+Dex damage by itself even if the enemy doesn't move. Add in another 3d8 damage if they do move. With a really high INT, you're likely to be going first more times than not. Run up and hit an enemy with Booming Blade, and then dash back to safety. Most of the time they do end up moving. Add on 6d6 sneak damage every single time too. Grab Sentinel and you can somewhat reliably pull off sneak damage with your reaction too. Hit the enemy and then retreat back and stand next to your tank buddy that's already engaged with his own enemy.

So at level 11, a common turn would be 3d8+6d6+Dex and a good turn would be 6d8+6d6+Dex

[Citan]

I'd say a level 14+ Raging and Recklessly Attacking Zealot has a great shot.


Well, that'd be 2x str+1d10 or 2d6 with a -5 penalty. You'd do an average of 30 (10+10+5x2)+5 or 6+1d6+7per turn, so that'd be only 42 or 43 dmg per turn assuming that you don't roll any crits.

A Hunter5/rogue 9 with FW would be doing 1d8+dex x3+1d8+5d6 (and+3d6 with Hunter's Mark) for am average of 15 (+5 dex mod x 3)+12+4+9+9 for a total of 40 or 49 per turn, so the HM would make this one do more damage, so I can see your point.

These calculations are both assuming that you're not using and weapons that give a damage bonus of their own, in which case the Hunter/rogue build would edge the barbarian out by +1 to +3 more dmg per turn.

I'm also assuming your reason for going lv. 14 on the zealot is only to protect against dying, right?
Hmm...
You dismiss his proposal quite fast.
FAR too fast actually, you didn't take the time to properly think it through.

Barbarian means at the very least 2 attacks with STR AND Rage modifier, which is a +3 at level 14.
So we are looking at the very least at 2(1d8+5+3).
Then Barbarian can dual-wield for another weapon attack, since Reckless Attack doesn't need an action or bonus action.
So you can add retrieve 2 points of average (reduced die size on main weapon due to requirement) to add another 1d6+3.
And then you add Zealot's offensive feature which is 1d6+half level, so here 1d6+7.

TOTAL (dual-wielding): 2(1d6+5+3) + (1d6+3) + (1d6+7)
(average rounded down for conservative projection) = 2*(3 + 5 + 3) + (3+3) + (3+7)
= 22 + 6 + 10 = 38. (Or 40 if rounded up).
WITHOUT taking into account critical hits on which Barbarian would add 2 additional die.

Or, if Barbarian prefers going with heavy weapon with GWM, while not using the -5+10 feature unless chance to hit is still great...
2(2d6+5+3)+(1d6+7) = 38 (rounded down) or 40 (rounded up) on normal attacks.
Or 58 / 60 with extra damage from GWM active.

Conversely, you see that when chance to hit or distance are not a concern, if you just look at probabilities, there is no reason to dual-wield. :) However in a fight, things may not happen as we like. When dealing damage matters, the extra try is good. And considering Zealot gets a pretty decent added damage built-in, *that is also triggered on ranged weapon attacks*, it is worth keeping dual-wielding weapons or at least a few thrown weapons for cases when melee is not a (good) option.
You can do both anyways since dual-wielding requires no investment. ^^


I looked into that, but the SCAG cantrips don't really seem to add that much damage because GFB transfers the extra damage to another target within 5ft., which isn't likely to happen often, and the BB damage can be negated by switching to a ranged attack while holding still. Neither seem worth the effort to me, which is why I looked until I discovered the Hunter/rouge combo.
Hmmm.
While I'm often annoyed when people see Booming Blade's rider going off or getting a shot at two close creatures granted (which happen too often to my taste around here), I think you underestimate their value a bit. :)

Booming Blade
Without the rider, it makes the cantrip worth taking if it's built-in (aka AT) but not worth investing otherwise. So you need to make the creature move. The good news is, you have ways to do that.

1. Be very close to it (Booming Blade with shortsword) and display a relative damage to its health that makes it understand "I'm dead if I stay here". It will think to Disengage (first win, action on this instead of attacking) but unless it knows about the spell it will necessarily move away and trigger.

2. Make it move "willingly" (you or an ally): Command, Dissonant Whispers, Confusion, Fear, Antipathy/Sympathy, and I certainly forget a few others: all "force willing move" so will trigger effect even by RAI.

3. Entice the target to move another way: here comes the greatness of Sorcerer and/or Warlock: with Quickened (or after an off-turn Warcaster's Booming Blade), you can either bring target in reach of Booming Blade then move away, or simply pull/push it the target however you want with Thorns Wnip, Lighting Lure, Repelling/Hadar's Eldricht Blast, Gust. Or Quicken Booming Blade after/before casting a leveled spell with similar effect (or a prone effect, since standing up technically consumes movement speed so would -imo- trigger effect).
- push a caster inside a Fog Cloud / Darkness (inability to cast most spells -> useless -> he'll want to move: note though that casters may know about BB and find other ways to get out, like Misty Step).
- push a martial inside a Fog Cloud / Darkness: no OA, attacks at disadvantage, it may be enough to move.
- push a martial inside a lasting AOE: Web, Stinking Cloud, Spike Growth, Moonbeam, Earth Tremor, Plant Growth, etc... If creature has decent ranged attacks and does not get damage automatically (like Spike Growth), it may stay still. In other cases, it will want to move.

Green-Flame Blade
IMX having two targets close to one another is in fact common enough.
It was, by the way, probably so for designers too considering they created several features relying on this assumption (Rogue's Sneak Attack without advantage, Wolf Barbarian, Sentinel, Drunken Master's redirect, Horde Breaker, Protection, Ice Knife, Lightning Arrow, Thunderclap, etc).

I mean, if you as a party tend to focus fire on enemies, why wouldn't enemy party?
If your group tend to take cover and as a consequence gets clustered sometimes, it's something enemy party could be to.

And if really you have trouble setting up a good situation for GreenFlame Blade, then everything said above for BB is still working.
Even more, many people have easy ways to bring people into position because here you don't care about movement being unwilling or not: so martials could simply grapple targets or push some whenever there is only 5-10 feet putting an enemy apart from another.

[GlenSmash!]

Well, that'd be 2x str+1d10 or 2d6 with a -5 penalty. You'd do an average of 30 (10+10+5x2)+5 or 6+1d6+7per turn, so that'd be only 42 or 43 dmg per turn assuming that you don't roll any crits.

A Hunter5/rogue 9 with FW would be doing 1d8+dex x3+1d8+5d6 (and+3d6 with Hunter's Mark) for am average of 15 (+5 dex mod x 3)+12+4+9+9 for a total of 40 or 49 per turn, so the HM would make this one do more damage, so I can see your point.

These calculations are both assuming that you're not using and weapons that give a damage bonus of their own, in which case the Hunter/rogue build would edge the barbarian out by +1 to +3 more dmg per turn.

I'm also assuming your reason for going lv. 14 on the zealot is only to protect against dying, right?

Yup, my thoughts being the Zealot will still be doing reliable damage when someone else would be dead in the same circumstance.

Of course that does make it very circumstantial.

[samcifer]

So you can add retrieve 2 points of average (reduced die size on main weapon due to requirement) to add another 1d6+3.

I don't understand what you mean. What is this and where is it coming from?

[GlenSmash!]

And considering Zealot gets a pretty decent added damage built-in, *that is also triggered on ranged weapon attacks*

Woah I never noticed that. Pretty useful since I always have at least 14 dex on my Barbs, and like to have a Longbow as a backup.

[samcifer]

Hmmm.
While I'm often annoyed when people see Booming Blade's rider going off or getting a shot at two close creatures granted (which happen too often to my taste around here), I think you underestimate their value a bit. :)

Booming Blade
Without the rider, it makes the cantrip worth taking if it's built-in (aka AT) but not worth investing otherwise. So you need to make the creature move. The good news is, you have ways to do that.

1. Be very close to it (Booming Blade with shortsword) and display a relative damage to its health that makes it understand "I'm dead if I stay here". It will think to Disengage (first win, action on this instead of attacking) but unless it knows about the spell it will necessarily move away and trigger.

2. Make it move "willingly" (you or an ally): Command, Dissonant Whispers, Confusion, Fear, Antipathy/Sympathy, and I certainly forget a few others: all "force willing move" so will trigger effect even by RAI.

3. Entice the target to move another way: here comes the greatness of Sorcerer and/or Warlock: with Quickened (or after an off-turn Warcaster's Booming Blade), you can either bring target in reach of Booming Blade then move away, or simply pull/push it the target however you want with Thorns Wnip, Lighting Lure, Repelling/Hadar's Eldricht Blast, Gust. Or Quicken Booming Blade after/before casting a leveled spell with similar effect (or a prone effect, since standing up technically consumes movement speed so would -imo- trigger effect).
- push a caster inside a Fog Cloud / Darkness (inability to cast most spells -> useless -> he'll want to move: note though that casters may know about BB and find other ways to get out, like Misty Step).
- push a martial inside a Fog Cloud / Darkness: no OA, attacks at disadvantage, it may be enough to move.
- push a martial inside a lasting AOE: Web, Stinking Cloud, Spike Growth, Moonbeam, Earth Tremor, Plant Growth, etc... If creature has decent ranged attacks and does not get damage automatically (like Spike Growth), it may stay still. In other cases, it will want to move.

Green-Flame Blade
IMX having two targets close to one another is in fact common enough.
It was, by the way, probably so for designers too considering they created several features relying on this assumption (Rogue's Sneak Attack without advantage, Wolf Barbarian, Sentinel, Drunken Master's redirect, Horde Breaker, Protection, Ice Knife, Lightning Arrow, Thunderclap, etc).

I mean, if you as a party tend to focus fire on enemies, why wouldn't enemy party?
If your group tend to take cover and as a consequence gets clustered sometimes, it's something enemy party could be to.

And if really you have trouble setting up a good situation for GreenFlame Blade, then everything said above for BB is still working.
Even more, many people have easy ways to bring people into position because here you don't care about movement being unwilling or not: so martials could simply grapple targets or push some whenever there is only 5-10 feet putting an enemy apart from another.

Part of it, for me at least, is how confusing these are. I mean they sound as if you do the weapon attack dmg to a target, then either another trgt takes dmg (gfb) or they take special dmg if the move (bb). If you're only doing a weapon attack and possible dmg, they don't really sound useful at all to me if that's the case.

[Blood of Gaea]

Part of it, for me at least, is how confusing these are. I mean they sound as if you do the weapon attack dmg to a target, then either another trgt takes dmg (gfb) or they take special dmg if the move (bb). If you're only doing a weapon attack and possible dmg, they don't really sound useful at all to me if that's the case.
They add damage directly to the attack after 5th level, and then the secondary damage may or may not trigger.

[Citan]

I don't understand what you mean. What is this and where is it coming from?
Sorry, it's because of my lazyness of the time.
It is because of RAW rules applying to dual-weapon fighting when you have neither related feat nor fighting style.
1. You need to wield weapons that are both "light" in hands.
2. You need to make a weapon attack with Attack action (but it's explicitely allowed to make a ranged weapon attack with a throwable).

And as far as I remember, there is no "light" weapon which die goes beyond 1d6, but I could obviously be mistaken.
So I made the assumption that when a Barbarian wants to dual-wield he uses two short swords or light hammers or the like (1d6).

Part of it, for me at least, is how confusing these are. I mean they sound as if you do the weapon attack dmg to a target, then either another trgt takes dmg (gfb) or they take special dmg if the move (bb). If you're only doing a weapon attack and possible dmg, they don't really sound useful at all to me if that's the case.


They add damage directly to the attack after 5th level, and then the secondary damage may or may not trigger.
This, as well as everything I said in previous post.
If you tried them but didn't see them as useful, no problem, they may just not fit your taste, or your party composition, or the kind of enemy party you face the most often. :)

If you never used because it seems not worth the try to you, then I'd really advise you give them a shot, possibly coordinating with someone else if you're afraid otherwise their secondary effect would be too rare.

At level 11, riders of both cantrips are more or less equal to an average weapon attack, if that can make you help figure out why others like them. :)

[samcifer]

Well, while going over various combinations, I think I hit on the ultimate damage output per turn, but it's ranged instead of melee:

Total character level = 17+, Hexblade 2+, Fighter 2+, Sorcerer 3+

Hexblade for Eldritch blast, Hexblade Curse, Hex, and Agonizing Blast and for advantage, Darkness + Devil's Sight (combined with Elf/half-elf and Elven Accuracy for maximum chance to crit)

Fighter for Action Surge

Sorcerer for Quickened Metamagic.

nn previous turns activate Hex and Hexblade's Curse on target, then on a turn fire 4 EB, then Quicken EB for another 4 shots, then Action Surge for yet another 4 for a total of 12 EBs.

1d10 + 5(max charisma mod) + 6 (Hexblade's Curse) + average of 3 for Hex for an average of 24 dmg per hit x 12 = 288 possible average dmg if all 12 connect during the same turn. Without Action Surge, you'd do around 192 dmg during a single turn if they all hit.

Removing Hex would lower the dmg, so on a turn without Action Surge or Hex, you'd still do an average of 168 dmg per turn, 252 with AS.

The trick, of course, to get all 8 / 12 EBs to hit.

[MeeposFire]

I am surprised you are looking into that sort of build since that is more of a NOVA build where you can put out a lot of damage all at once which to me is not how I would view reliable. It does work of course in that regard though how do you feel about the rounds where you are not unleashing all of your resources at once?


For a build that is built for more sustain but less NOVA you could go fighter(EK) 7or8/warlock2/rogue10or11.

This allows you to keep a very nice EB+bonus action weapon attack+sneak attack. If you pick up crossbow expert as a feat EB can be used in melee or you can pick up booming blade and use that (you can also drop the warlock levels and pick up 2 more levels of rogue and use booming blade full time and get some more sneak attack). You also gain action surge so you can use another cantrip on your turn.

Essentially the difference between what you have and this is that you do not get bonus action spell use and less casting in general while the rogue version gets more sustained damage via war magic and sneak attack and you also get some nice rogue special defenses and abilities (evasion and uncanny dodge are fantastic for you as is cunning action). Also the rogue version has an easy to use level progression as you are never behind at anytime. You start off as a fighter which in those early levels is very strong and you just improve from there you never feel like you are behind the major curve like so many multiclass builds where you do not get 3rd level spells or extra attack by level 5.

[samcifer]

I am surprised you are looking into that sort of build since that is more of a NOVA build where you can put out a lot of damage all at once which to me is not how I would view reliable. It does work of course in that regard though how do you feel about the rounds where you are not unleashing all of your resources at once?


For a build that is built for more sustain but less NOVA you could go fighter(EK) 7or8/warlock2/rogue10or11.

This allows you to keep a very nice EB+bonus action weapon attack+sneak attack. If you pick up crossbow expert as a feat EB can be used in melee or you can pick up booming blade and use that (you can also drop the warlock levels and pick up 2 more levels of rogue and use booming blade full time and get some more sneak attack). You also gain action surge so you can use another cantrip on your turn.

Essentially the difference between what you have and this is that you do not get bonus action spell use and less casting in general while the rogue version gets more sustained damage via war magic and sneak attack and you also get some nice rogue special defenses and abilities (evasion and uncanny dodge are fantastic for you as is cunning action). Also the rogue version has an easy to use level progression as you are never behind at anytime. You start off as a fighter which in those early levels is very strong and you just improve from there you never feel like you are behind the major curve like so many multiclass builds where you do not get 3rd level spells or extra attack by level 5.

another route that would do consistent okay damage with potential for more at later levels would be monk (kensei) + hexblade. Hexblade's curse at lv. 9 *our current level in thos campaign) would grant +4 dmg to every attack. That'd be 3 or 4 attacks per turn, two at 1d10 (longsword) + dex (5) + 4 and one or two at 1d6 + dex + 4. I could do around 50 damage per turn, more if I crit (I'd play an elf with elven accuracy to combine with the hexblade curse's critting on 19 or 20). Later on with warlock I could gain the ability to smite, even though it would only be one or two times per battle.

[samcifer]

But one build I keep going back to is a vengeance paladin hexblade with Pact of the Blade, focusing on CHA for my attack stat with GWM. I figure that the best version of this would be a halberd + polearm mastery for 3 attacks per turn. If I can get to lv. 12 (pal 8 / warlock 4) to get 3 feats, I could go with GWM, Polearm Master and Elven Accuracy with Vow of Enmity, I could try for the extra +10 dmg. 3 times per turn. With that and Hexblade Curse granting me +4 extra dmg. per hit along with smite dmg., I'd be doing 19 (10GWM + 5CHA + 4HC) + 1d10 before smite, which would add another +8 to 12 dmg. two times, then 19 + 1d4 with a third possible smite for around 93 dmg. on a single turn if everything hets and that's at character lv. 12 for a nova turn or an average of 69 dmg without siting at all, which sounds pretty good.

[samcifer]

I know that this thread is a bit old, but Since I began this thread, my group began a new campaign at total character lv. 11, I've been playing an Assimar (fallen) Devotion pal (5 lv.) / Divine Soul Sorc (lv. 6, about to hit 7th lv.) with GWM and Polemarm Master. with max CHA and max STR. He's been doing really great on melee damage so far as the +5 CHA mod from the Sacred Weapon feature perfectly counters the +5 to hit with my glaive via GWM, so with smites thrown on when I hit, I've really been packing on the damage pretty well so far.

[samcifer]

I know that this thread is a bit old, but Since I began this thread, my group began a new campaign at at total character lv. 11, I've been playing an Assimar (fallen) Devotion pal (5 lv.) / Divine Soul Sorc (lv. 6, about to hit 7th lv.) with GWM and Polemarm Master. with max CHA and max STR. He's been doing really great on melee damage so far as the +5 CHA mod from the Sacred Weapon feature perfectly counters the +5 to hit with my glaive via GWM, so with smites thrown on when I hit, I've really been packing on the damage pretty well so far.

[samcifer]

I know that this thread is a bit old, but Since I began this thread, my group began a new campaign at at total character lv. 11, I've been playing an Assimar (fallen) Devotion pal (5 lv.) / Divine Soul Sorc (lv. 6, about to hit 7th lv.) with GWM and Polemarm Master. with max CHA and max STR. He's been doing really great on melee damage so far as the +5 CHA mod from the Sacred Weapon feature perfectly counters the +5 to hit with my glaive via GWM, so with smites thrown on when I hit, I've really been packing on the damage pretty well so far.

[samcifer]

I know that this thread is a bit old, but Since I began this thread, my group began a new campaign at total character lv. 11, I've been playing an Assimar (fallen) Devotion pal (5 lv.) / Divine Soul Sorc (lv. 6, about to hit 7th lv.) with GWM and Polemarm Master. with max CHA and max STR. He's been doing really great on melee damage so far as the +5 CHA mod from the Sacred Weapon feature perfectly counters the +5 to hit with my glaive via GWM, so with smites thrown on when I hit, I've really been packing on the damage pretty well so far.

[bid]

Woah, stuttersplosion!

[Citan]

Wow that multiattack! XD

I'll bet Samcifer was traveling when writing this or having otherwise troublesome internet so felt delays when hitting the submit button.
He probably never even realized what really happened...

I'm impatient to see his reaction when coming back on this thread seeing new posts have been made... :smallbiggrin:

[samcifer]

Wow that multiattack! XD

I'll bet Samcifer was traveling when writing this or having otherwise troublesome internet so felt delays when hitting the submit button.
He probably never even realized what really happened...

I'm impatient to see his reaction when coming back on this thread seeing new posts have been made... :smallbiggrin:

I wrote that at work and the internet was acting up. Sorry for the repeat.

*frog-like* Repeat-repeat

[1ring42]

2 levels of fighter go the rest of the way as a monk take great weapon as your fighting style and use a quarterstaff, only wield it 2 handed. You attack twice with 1d8+mod damage for the quarterstaff and a bonus 1d6+mod unarmed strike that goes up to 4 1d8 attacks if you action surge and 2 unarmed strikes if you use flurry of blows which you can do pretty consistently as you'll have 8 ki points to spend which you can regain during a short rest.