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View Full Version : DM Help Need some advice after a partial TPK (long post)



KillianHawkeye
2018-08-24, 04:46 PM
Okay, so first things first, I am running an adventure using Pathfinder rules (although the specifics of the game system aren't important to this issue) which I've done a basic outline for but I am essentially writing the specifics of each session as I go. As we take turns DMing in my group, I run my game roughly once a month.

So in the previous session, the party had been in the midst of infiltrating a dragon's lair (although despite some hinting, they didn't know precisely what they were getting into). They ventured into the depths of the cave and met the dragon, offering it some meat and trying to stay on its good side. At the back, there was an evil goblin priest performing some dark rituals over the princess that the party was supposed to be saving.

Anyway, due to some unexpected player absences, the PCs were a bit undermanned to face off against the dragon. This was a high CR encounter designed to be a big boss battle for them. Now due to their previous actions, the nearby goblin camp had been alerted to their presence and had them more or less pinned inside the dragon's cave. This was partially my own error in having too many wyvern-riding goblins harrying them at the cave's entrance when there could have been fewer on account of the smaller group size. So despite having a chance to escape the situation, the players decided to stay and thus got trapped between a rock and a hard place.

One thing led to another, and the party attacked the dragon. I really did give them every chance to back out and face the goblins and wyverns instead, but I have to let the players do what they want to do. Even with a couple of missing players, they almost succeeded in defeating it. And they did kill the goblin priest when he came too close, thereby stopping the evil demon possession ritual he was trying to do. However, the dragon got his fire breath back and the party happened to be clustered together, and I rolled extremely well on the damage, and the result was a TPK.

Maybe I could have fudged it, and maybe I should have, but I didn't. I don't usually DM that way. My normal method of encounter design for a really challenging battle, after DMing for this group for several years now, is to really crank the difficulty more than I think is necessary and see what they do to win because anything less than that will just get steamrolled by a summoned giant crocodile or something. And they really would have been fine if not for the missing characters.

I want to quickly note that the two absences were both "day of game" notices. I couldn't possibly have had time to re-stat the dragon, so they were stuck fighting a battle that was meant to challenge the whole party. And while I'm not rooting for the players to fail, I truly believe that it's important for them to feel like failure is a possible outcome. Also, most of my encounters are not designed to be difficult challenges, but the ones that are have to really be difficult or they won't be difficult at all.

Now technically, most of the party was merely KO'ed by the dragon, and I made a deal with the one who was straight up dead to put him at unconscious but stable. I was expecting the next session would be to get the missing players to come through for a timely rescue, but it looks like that might not happen. I don't want to get into details, but for the purposes of this thread let's assume that the two remaining living PCs are also going to miss the next session of the game. Let's also assume that I don't delay my game until they're available because I don't want to inconvenience the other DMs.

So going by those assumptions, the only idea I have for salvaging the game is for the dragon to keep these unconscious heroes alive, giving them over to the goblins to imprison. This is something that's certainly possible as the goblin cleric had a healing wand that the dragon could conceivably use. As a worst case scenario, the PCs all wake up in chains in the goblin camp.



Here is where I need some advice from the playground.

If there's no outside help coming in the form of other PCs who weren't present for the battle against the dragon, how do I have the PCs escape their imprisonment and achieve victory over the goblins, go back and re-fight the dragon, and rescue the princess? There's only the smallest possibility of help from NPCs, as they mostly aren't on the same level as the player characters.

I suppose that I've already introduced a couple of divination-related fortune teller type characters, and it's technically possible that one of them could have arranged for a rescue party to save the day here. I don't see that as being the most ideal solution story-wise, since the PCs are supposed to be the heroes and they just got in over their head, but it's a possibility. But it would also mean that I have to probably stat out a bunch of dwarven gunslingers way earlier than I was planning to.

I also suppose that, as I am writing the adventure and, in fact, have created at least the outlines of the entire world that it's happening in, I do have the power to have just about anything happen in order to set things right. But right now, my mind is trapped within the story as I've expected it to go, and getting lost in the maze of possibilities now that I have to invent something that I didn't already plan for.

I'm really curious to hear what other DMs might do in a similar sort of situation. I need a push. I need an idea that has enough depth to be justified (or at least explained after the fact), that doesn't cheapen the efforts of the player characters, and that isn't just a lame deus ex machina.

So, if anyone's managed to get all the way to end of my trail of rambling thoughts, what would YOU do?

Koo Rehtorb
2018-08-24, 05:01 PM
At this point? I'd kill them. Unless there's a real convincing IC reason not to anyway.

KillianHawkeye
2018-08-24, 05:27 PM
At this point? I'd kill them. Unless there's a real convincing IC reason not to anyway.

How about, because the adventure would be over? Because the DM doesn't normally want the players to lose? :smallconfused:

Sapphire Guard
2018-08-24, 06:06 PM
Make the other PCs NPCs temporarily? You'd have to be careful not to kill them without their players, so maybe after the rescue they have to do some offscreen ish sidequest- ie holding off the goblins or the princess while the others go after the dragon, or they do something that distracts the goblin wyverns enough that they can get out of the cave.

Maybe make it an extraction rather than a dragon slaying, where they have to get the Princess out alive without engaging the Dragon if possible, since he's proven too powerful to take directly.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-08-24, 06:18 PM
How about, because the adventure would be over? Because the DM doesn't normally want the players to lose? :smallconfused:

Neither of those things are IC reasons. It sounds like these PCs earned their deaths and it would be poor form not to give it to them.

Edit for more content. The GM shouldn't want any particular outcome. The GM's job is to impartially portray the world and if what makes sense in the world is that a dragon eats the party then that's what should happen. Winning is meaningless if you lack the ability to lose.

Mordar
2018-08-24, 06:46 PM
The obligatory "you shoulda"...if you really wanted to "allow" the dragon fight you shoulda just done a quick-and-dirty nerf, even if only on the defenses and HPs side of things.

But that's the past. So a couple of choices present themselves immediately. PCs awaken as prisoners of the goblins or as prisoners of the dragon.

The goblins have to have a reason not to kill the PCs out of hand. They are clearly dark nasty goblins, affiliated with demons and what not. And the demon isn't happy it didn't get its princess. So...use that angle. Options include:

Demon spirit escaped the summoning process, can temporarily inhabit other bodies. It takes a PC at some point and provides power to free the others...maybe the PC knows, maybe they don't. Good thread for later pulling.
Same idea, but demon takes a goblin. Wants to get to an inhabited area/city, so frees the PCs as a "friendly goblin" and leads an escape. Maybe saving the princess along the way will earn the goblin extra "good guy" cred.
Demon is owed compensation by the goblins, comes to visit, goblins plan to offer up the PCs. They have time to try to engineer a jail break.
Goblins hated the demon priest, but know the demon is coming. Secures PCs aid to fight off the demon in exchange for their freedom.


As far as the dragon goes...well, dragons always want something. The PCs cut a deal and can leave with the princess...but boy do they owe for all the damage they caused.

That's just of the top of the head.

Could be fun!

- M

Epimethee
2018-08-24, 07:08 PM
One solution I could see would be to subvert the trope of the princess. It could be that she has a certain amount of influence on the dragon and begged for their mercy. She could be an amazing woman, able to make even a dragon doubt of his actions. She could also help the group and offer them the keys to defeat the dragon.

Then I would read some of my old books, like the famous Sigurd/Siegfried and the many ways he would trap dragons.

Between that, I have a great new character, a certain amount of coherency for why they were not killed by the dragon and a path to victory if they can follow the fiery spirit of the Princess.

Darth Ultron
2018-08-24, 07:17 PM
Well, the simple waking up in a cell works just fine. The bad guys can have tons of reasons for keeping them alive. So then you just have a basic escape adventure.

It's not such a big deal to introduce a character to help save them. Someone to pop in and help. It's not such a big deal to let the character help, and then kill them off.

For another half plot twist...you could have a bad guy, the Starscream type, that ''saves" the PCs to use them. Again, if you really don't want to do this plot...it's easy enough to have the Starscream found out and killed.

Divine help is also a nice thing to do. Add in something sent to help, but help only a little.

Another twist, might just be for the bad guys to leave the PCs for dead.

Lapak
2018-08-24, 07:26 PM
Man, I want to tell you to have them roll up new characters who are the friends/family/lovers of the TPK'd party members, on a quest to get revenge against the so-called friends who abandoned their loved ones in the hour of need. Then make the PCs who were absent the antagonists they seek to defeat.

But instead: dragons are both magical and greedy, and the PCs slew a valuable servant. I might have the dragon offer the captive PCs their freedom if they submit to a Geas, have it give them a quest to retrieve some item held by people they'd rather not fight, and OOC encourage them to look for loopholes. (For example, snatching the princess on the pretext of needing her as step one in a heist that depends on them being seen as the heroes.)

kitanas
2018-08-24, 07:34 PM
Why does evil have to be one happy family? Maybe the PC's weakened the dragon enough that the goblins could take it on, albeit with heavy enough casualties that the survivors have to flee. Ultimately, you are the dm. You can tweak the world as needed to justify your desired end goal.

Thrudd
2018-08-24, 07:43 PM
The DM may not want them to lose, but they did. It's not a big deal. Roll up new characters and keep playing. You don't need to feel bad about it.

exelsisxax
2018-08-24, 08:05 PM
They're dead. You have a new campaign to plan. The hard part is probably going to be explaining to the players who missed the session how their PC's not being there to support the party led to them dying in dragonfire.

I don't think you did anything wrong, including keeping the encounter as difficult as it was. Fair - but you lose, you lose.

GunDragon
2018-08-24, 09:54 PM
Do the goblins like entertainment? Perhaps the goblins capture the unconscious players, and make them fight in an arena against each other, Mortal Kombat style. The one who survives and wins the tournament gets to walk free, but stripped of all equipment. Just have him/her put in a large net and have the dragon carry that net and fly them into the middle of nowhere and drop them.

Chad Hooper
2018-08-24, 10:17 PM
My DM style differs from most posters above.

I usually require an up-to-date copy of each PC to be left with me (for prep reference). If a player has to cancel on short notice, they understand that someone else will take the helm of their PC for that game session. That said, we're a small group, only 3 players and myself the DM. If two players cancel, we reschedule for another week.

Tangent aside, back to OP's original issue: barring having the missing players' characters as NPCs controlled by another player/players, I would have A: diverted the PCs away from the dragon via red herrings (e.g., a lot of trapped doors leading nowhere (and away from the dragon) rather than to the expected treasure), B: Fudged the dragon's damage roll (that's one of the reasons I have a screen, right?), or C: Thrown in a third party inimical to all, say Ogres or Trolls, to distract everyone from everyone else.

Some will say A and C are inelegant or lacking style. Others will say B isn't "fair". IMO (and IMC), the point of play is to collectively tell a story everyone at the table enjoys putting together.

Nobody enjoys their characters dying, but almost everyone enjoys their character(s) barely pulling out of a close scrape.

IMO, and YMMV as always

MrSandman
2018-08-25, 02:39 AM
As already said by many others, rpgs needn't be "win or die." The dragon can simply take them as hostages and ask someone for a ransom. That would be simple and go well with the dragon's greediness. Then the characters can negotiate some sort of deal or something like that.

KillianHawkeye
2018-08-25, 11:03 AM
Okay, I'll start by saying that I understand all the "should've done X" comments. I know I could have, but I didn't, and I don't want to hit the undo button because that feels really cheap to me. But yes, maybe I'll remember this in the future and do something different next time.




The GM shouldn't want any particular outcome. The GM's job is to impartially portray the world and if what makes sense in the world is that a dragon eats the party then that's what should happen. Winning is meaningless if you lack the ability to lose.

Yes, I agree completely. That's why I didn't pull my punches.

Still, it's better to have the story continue if at all possible. Losing doesn't always have to mean dying.


One solution I could see would be to subvert the trope of the princess. It could be that she has a certain amount of influence on the dragon and begged for their mercy. She could be an amazing woman, able to make even a dragon doubt of his actions.

This could work. The princess has been kidnapped long enough that she probably knows the dragon fairly well by now.


Well, the simple waking up in a cell works just fine. The bad guys can have tons of reasons for keeping them alive. So then you just have a basic escape adventure.

Yes, but part of my issue is that I don't really know how a "basic escape adventure" is run. Never done it before.


It's not such a big deal to introduce a character to help save them. Someone to pop in and help. It's not such a big deal to let the character help, and then kill them off.

For another half plot twist...you could have a bad guy, the Starscream type, that ''saves" the PCs to use them. Again, if you really don't want to do this plot...it's easy enough to have the Starscream found out and killed.

Divine help is also a nice thing to do. Add in something sent to help, but help only a little.

Some interesting possibilities here. Maybe....


The DM may not want them to lose, but they did. It's not a big deal. Roll up new characters and keep playing. You don't need to feel bad about it.

I don't feel bad, I'm just not sure what to do next.


They're dead. You have a new campaign to plan. The hard part is probably going to be explaining to the players who missed the session how their PC's not being there to support the party led to them dying in dragonfire.

I don't think you did anything wrong, including keeping the encounter as difficult as it was. Fair - but you lose, you lose.

Okay, but this is like literally the worst cast scenario.

What I'm looking for is a good way for the players to lose without it just being the end of the campaign. It happens lots of times in stories.


Do the goblins like entertainment? Perhaps the goblins capture the unconscious players, and make them fight in an arena against each other, Mortal Kombat style. The one who survives and wins the tournament gets to walk free, but stripped of all equipment. Just have him/her put in a large net and have the dragon carry that net and fly them into the middle of nowhere and drop them.

This certainly sounds like something that goblins might do. I like it!


As already said by many others, rpgs needn't be "win or die." The dragon can simply take them as hostages and ask someone for a ransom. That would be simple and go well with the dragon's greediness. Then the characters can negotiate some sort of deal or something like that.

Well it's true they're worth more alive than dead, at the very least as an information source. And actually, since the goblins and dragon have been camped out in the wilderness for a while, it would be smart of them to try to get some intel on what's been going on since they attacked the castle.



Okay, well I have a couple of things now that could be developed into something interesting for the next session, so thanks for everyone's input so far. I wouldn't turn down more ideas if anyone else has any thoughts about the situation, though. :smallsmile:

Altair_the_Vexed
2018-08-25, 12:05 PM
I've blogged on this one (http://running-the-game.blogspot.com/2013/04/after-heroes-are-dead.html), years ago now - and everyone here has pretty well made all the suggestions I came up with in that blog.

All I can add is that the OP seems to be leaning toward the "Captured" scenario - so that's how I'm going to try to help.

You've got a bunch of goblins, the dragon has handed the players over to them for some reason - so you need to decide what that reason is. Someone already suggested that the princess might be able to influence this - which I like. It could also be a good idea to strengthen her role as an NPC - she's been kidnapped and subjected to a dark ritual because she's important.

So, let's say the dragon & goblin priest want to mind-bend her in some way to make her do terrible things to the kingdom (gaining power over the kingdom for the bad guys in the process). Princess is no dummy - she's figured this out, and is using her high charisma to bluff that she's actually weakening her resolve and will go along with their evil plan without the rituals (whatever system you're playing, a princess should be charismatic, no matter what the stat is called).

So she demands that the PCs are spared, so now you have all the PCs in a cell. Princess has persuaded the dragon and goblin priest to anoint her with the PCs' blood, instead of sacrificing her. But let the PCs stay put in the cell for at least as long as it'll take them to heal enough so they won't be instantly killed by the first goblin who pokes them with a pointy stick.
For drama, you could have Princess's persuasion play out in front of the PCs in the cell. Let the PCs detect that she's planning something else - the goblins can't tell when she's lying so easily, as she's not a goblinoid.

From there, you need to get them out of the cell - so Princess demands to go see them face to face, so she can pick which one must be sacrificed. She goes there with the goblin priest and some jailer, where she helps the party escape by getting the cell opened up, and then hands over at least one weapon that she's hidden on her to the toughest looking PC, and anything else that might be useful.

If you can time it right so that the goblin priest doesn't have all his spells, that be helpful.

Now you've got your PCs stealing goblin weapons for the moment, and getting out of there. Essentially, you have a dungeon crawl in reverse - the PCs need to find their gear, and get out. Princess can tell them where their gear is - it should be guarded, but not so strongly guarded that they'll not dare to try getting it back (that happened in a game I ran ages ago - the party teleported away rather than trying to get their gear back, because they thought that the risk was too high).

Concentrate on getting out for now - your PCs are weak, they won't want to go up against the dragon again. They should be pleased enough at escaping, and taking out the priest, and getting the Princess out.

Darth Ultron
2018-08-25, 12:24 PM
Yes, but part of my issue is that I don't really know how a "basic escape adventure" is run. Never done it before.


Well, just about any movie or TV with a jail bit where the main characters are caught is a good example. It does depend on how active your players like to be.

You want to avoid the 'time stopped force cage of power' cell that is inescapable, and make it more of a place with old, rusted bars and a poor lock.

At one extreme, you could have some elven writing in the cell that says 'escape tunnel' and sure enough points to a hidden escape tunnel.

Dumb guards are a classic. Have them hang the cell key right outside the cell....or do the classic 'take a nap right next to the cell'.

The classic of having someone pretend to be sick to get the guards to open the door or bribing them with information.

The Starscream(aka, the second in command) lets the characters out with the plan of ''kill my leader so I can take over". It's possible the (smart) Starscream will keep his word...but often they will just betray the characters. For another classic is to have a fool (Jar Jar Goblin) do it....like the other goblins laugh and call him names, so he gets them back by opening the cell door.

In general, you want a quick like ten minute event.

Minty
2018-08-25, 12:31 PM
Neither of those things are IC reasons. It sounds like these PCs earned their deaths and it would be poor form not to give it to them.

Edit for more content. The GM shouldn't want any particular outcome. The GM's job is to impartially portray the world and if what makes sense in the world is that a dragon eats the party then that's what should happen. Winning is meaningless if you lack the ability to lose.

I don't agree with that at all. The GM's job is not mindless simulationism. The outcome that the GM should want is that everyone at the table is having fun. Killing a game that everyone is enjoying and invested in because of a bad dice roll or badly balanced encounter is just silly, not to mention no fun for anyone.

Pelle
2018-08-25, 01:20 PM
What do the players want? If they understand their characters should rightfully be dead, they might not find it fun either to survive by fiat either. They might prefer to just make new characters, or start a new game. If they survive here, they will anyways know it was you who let them, so you might just as well have an open discussion with them, and ask them for suggestions on why they might be spared etc...

Altair_the_Vexed
2018-08-28, 05:56 AM
What do the players want? If they understand their characters should rightfully be dead, they might not find it fun either to survive by fiat either. They might prefer to just make new characters, or start a new game. If they survive here, they will anyways know it was you who let them, so you might just as well have an open discussion with them, and ask them for suggestions on why they might be spared etc...

^ THIS!

I've quit out of games where I was let off my character's death because it didn't fit the GM's idea of what should have happened.

So most importantly, check what the players want.

Do some light prep to get the original party back in the game if they want, but also do some prep for a new party in the same setting. The players might prefer that.

KillianHawkeye
2018-08-29, 07:25 PM
Hey everyone!

I just wanted to thank everyone for the advice and let you all know that the group has decided to postpone the game session a week so that the missing characters will be available to try and save the day. They all seem to want the game to continue, and I think I can do it properly now thanks to some of the ideas I've gotten from this thread.


Cheers! :smallsmile: