What will we learn in the astral plane?

[ouras]

Well, here comes some godly exposition. What will Thor clue us in on that relates to the astral plane?

A) Lore which raises the already high stakes for the fate of the world?
B) helpful knowledge necessary to tackling the Snarl problem?
C) the nature of the planet within the rift?

Admittedly I'm not an expert on the astral plane, but whatever we are about to learn concerns the snarl and the gods, i.e. Big lore moment which could only come from the gods at the heart of our conflict.

Could this be information Redcloak or Xykon do not know about? The dark one doesn't know everything about the snarl, thus redcloak may be operating under incomplete information. Xykon spent more time in the astral plane and might know a bit more, considering Thor is taking us there to make sense of his favor, but he may not understand it or know much. This information may blindside even Team Evil.

Let's compare crazy theories here, I'm curious what y'all think it may be.


My theory concerns the planet(s) in the gate. It may be the same planet from separate vantage points, or multiple planets, we don't know.

In 275 the lore of the sapphire guard tells us the clever gods built their prison in all possible coterminous dimensions to seal him away. V simplifies that "our world is but the padlock on the jailhouse door of reality."

I've pondered what this may mean, theorizing the possibility that there are countless worlds parallel the Prime, possibly with civilizations on them. The Prime happens to be super important because if the snarl breaks out, he could have a nice buffet on thousands of planets. Perhaps we may see this linkage from the astral plane, which is a layer between the Material plane(s) and the outer planes of the gods.

Will Thor ramp up how important we consider this mission to be? Or could it be something else. What do you think?

[Aveline]

Hopefully we learn something that contextualizes the Monster in the Darkness. He's been there somehow, after all.

[martianmister]

True story of creation.

[kraitmarais]

Hopefully we learn something that contextualizes the Monster in the Darkness. He's been there somehow, after all.

This was my first thought!

[Synesthesy]

As it's clear that Thor reads this forum, I think that he'll show us something that will cut some of the worst theory out there.

1) something that makes it clear that the Eastern Gods are actually dead
2) something about the fact that something that became a God doesn't automatically get a vote on what to do with the world and the snarl (it's about the Dark One, but Thor will think about Banjo)
3) A terrasque, and Thor will mention the fact that they can't be hidden inside magical darkness
4) Thor will also said that Xykon owns no object that makes him cast spell above his level; so if he cast something, he's powerfull enough (read: high level enough) to do this.

[Auguries]

As it's clear that Thor reads this forum, I think that he'll show us something that will cut some of the worst theory out there.

1) something that makes it clear that the Eastern Gods are actually dead
2) something about the fact that something that became a God doesn't automatically get a vote on what to do with the world and the snarl (it's about the Dark One, but Thor will think about Banjo)
3) A terrasque, and Thor will mention the fact that they can't be hidden inside magical darkness
4) Thor will also said that Xykon owns no object that makes him cast spell above his level; so if he cast something, he's powerfull enough (read: high level enough) to do this.

I'm going to take a wild guess that you've spent an inordinate amount of time trying to slap some sense into people.:smallwink:

[Lathund]

Hopefully we learn something that contextualizes the Monster in the Darkness. He's been there somehow, after all.

Has he? Was that mentioned in one of the bonus books or was it mentioned in a strip I forgot about?

[PontificatusRex]

This was my first thought!

Me too. Suddenly seems a lot more likely he's related to the Snarl in some way.

[Crusher]

Has he? Was that mentioned in one of the bonus books or was it mentioned in a strip I forgot about?

Near the end of... Don’t Split the Party, I think, as Team Evil was about to go, Xykon mentioned needing to swing by his fortress in the Astral plane (on the way to Girard’s gate) for Redcloak to cast some defensive spells there. Xykon opened a portal to the Astral plane and MitD immediately recognized it and thought he’s been there in the past. No specifics.

[Anymage]

Near the end of... Don’t Split the Party, I think, as Team Evil was about to go, Xykon mentioned needing to swing by his fortress in the Astral plane (on the way to Girard’s gate) for Redcloak to cast some defensive spells there. Xykon opened a portal to the Astral plane and MitD immediately recognized it and thought he’s been there in the past. No specifics.

833 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html), specifically.

And still well within BRitF.

[SirKazum]

Thor just said "there's something I want to show you that'll help things make more sense". Besides, why would they need to actually go to the Astral Plane for whatever exposition comes next? Because, at least in what concerns the Astral Plane, it's going to be more "show" than "tell". So, my guess? There's going to be some sign of the Snarl's prison and/or the "world within a world" (e.g. there are planar "fault lines" you can see, there's a vantage point where you can actually see part of the prison's structure from, etc.) and, of course, it's going to be something that changes our perception of the Snarl's situation again (just like Blackwing's "world within a world" discovery). Hopefully, something that helps us understand the whole thing better.

[Celestia]

I bet Thor just knows a really good githyanki bar and wants to have a few cold ones with his pal, Durkon.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

My best guess is that there's something about the Snarl that is best visible from the Astral Plane that Thor wants Durkon to see. Maybe something like the Snarl trying to break free into the Astral plane as well? Or a better vantage point for what we saw in #945?

I am, additionally, hoping that the MitD might pop up somehow as well, but I think it's pretty unlikely to happen.

[jwhouk]

My best guess is that there's something about the Snarl that is best visible from the Astral Plane that Thor wants Durkon to see. Maybe something like the Snarl trying to break free into the Astral plane as well? Or a better vantage point for what we saw in #945?

Oh. Oh my. Would it be that on the Astral plane, you can see just what the Snarl really is?

[Celestia]

I highly doubt that the Snarl is visible on the astral plane. If it were, more people would surely know about it.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I highly doubt that the Snarl is visible on the astral plane. If it were, more people would surely know about it.

You say that but we don't actually know how The Order of the Scribble learned all they did about the Snarl. We know how they first encountered it but the explanation given by Shojo (supposedly passed on from Soon) is filled with information that had to have come from somewhere.

[Celestia]

You say that but we don't actually know how The Order of the Scribble learned all they did about the Snarl. We know how they first encountered it but the explanation given by Shojo (supposedly passed on from Soon) is filled with information that had to have come from somewhere.
They rolled really well on their Knowledge (God-Killing Abomination) check.

But seriously, they had a divine caster, and the gods' rules only forbid them from talking about the Snarl with mortals who don't know about it. They also had a wizard who we know did some magic research in his time. Presumably, they could have figured something out between the two of them.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I highly doubt that the Snarl is visible on the astral plane. If it were, more people would surely know about it.

Not if, perhaps, it only recently became visible. And if in addition it’s only visible from a certain region of the astral plane, the odds of someone stumbling upon it might make it much less likely to be discovered.

[RatElemental]

Admittedly I'm not an expert on the astral plane, but whatever we are about to learn concerns the snarl and the gods, i.e. Big lore moment which could only come from the gods at the heart of our conflict.


Well, explaining the Astral is something worth doing, so why not. The Astral plane is the plane that's sorta "in between" all the others. It's the one that connects everything to everything else, and what makes teleportation magic possible. If you wander it long enough, you can find portals to any other plane. All planar travel goes through the astral at some point in the process, even instantaneous teleportation spells and ones that go from one point in a plane to another point in the same plane.

Other than that, gravity is subjective. IE, 'down' is wherever you think it is at the moment. With practice you can use this to 'fly' by falling in the direction you want to go. You also don't age, or need to eat sleep or drink while there, and spells cast are enhanced with the 'quicken spell' feat.

[The Pilgrim]

My bet is that they are going to the Astral Plane because it is the closest place they can get to the Material Plane. God's rules probably forbid any God from manifestating directly on the Material Plane, and Durkon&Minrah are spirits and can't manifest on the Material plane without an anchor (like Eugene and the Greenhilt Sword).

[The MunchKING]

My bet is that they are going to the Astral Plane because it is the closest place they can get to the Material Plane. God's rules probably forbid any God from manifestating directly on the Material Plane, and Durkon&Minrah are spirits and can't manifest on the Material plane without an anchor (like Eugene and the Greenhilt Sword).

Thor showed up on the Prime Material to battle Surtur that one time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html).

[Goblin_Priest]

Another vote for MitD info from me.


Thor showed up on the Prime Material to battle Surtur that one time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html).

I see no evidence of this being the Prime Material plane.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

My bet is that they are going to the Astral Plane because it is the closest place they can get to the Material Plane. God's rules probably forbid any God from manifestating directly on the Material Plane, and Durkon&Minrah are spirits and can't manifest on the Material plane without an anchor (like Eugene and the Greenhilt Sword).

This theory also makes sense, although I feel like there must still be some deeper reasoning for why Thor needs to get close to the material plane rather than just scry the situation for Durkon and Minrah. Unless he just thinks the news will be more impresssive in person, I suppose.

[The Pilgrim]

This theory also makes sense, although I feel like there must still be some deeper reasoning for why Thor needs to get close to the material plane rather than just scry the situation for Durkon and Minrah. Unless he just thinks the news will be more impresssive in person, I suppose.

Also probably because he wants a less crowded place to discuss the issue than the entrance of Mount Celestia.

[dtilque]

Isn't the astral plane the vehicle that the baseball team from Houston travels to away games on? What's so special about that?

[The MunchKING]

I see no evidence of this being the Prime Material plane.

given the lush green rolling hills and people to be eaten, I don't see any evidence for anywhere ELSE.

[Goblin_Priest]

given the lush green rolling hills and people to be eaten, I don't see any evidence for anywhere ELSE.

That description fits about half of the planes in the D&D cosmology.

Plus the rule gods have about acting directly on the prime material plane...

[PontificatusRex]

That description fits about half of the planes in the D&D cosmology.


Yeah, most of the Outer Planes are described in such a way that they could very easily be on the Prime plane - just somewhat different monsters. And not even that different a lot of times..."Oh look, it's a like a centaur, but with goat parts."

[The MunchKING]

That description fits about half of the planes in the D&D cosmology.

Really? Elemental planes are super that element. Everything on fire in the Elemental Plane of Fire, or whatever. Celestia is a big mountain on a fluffy cloud heaven, the nether realms are big fiery cave-pits, etc. We haven't seen any planes (aside from alternate realities in non-canon sources), that look like the Prime Material and have people.

The second part is also important, because while you could see some rolling hills somewhere on some of the afterlife planes, the people there are angels, and wouldn't just casually get eaten like that (also they wouldn't look like people, they would have wings and halos and such).

Also I can't really imagine an assault on one of the primal planes of Good by one of the Big Bad Gods would warrant no-one other than Thor paying attention to it.

[PontificatusRex]

With a few exceptions, the Outer Planes are described as being very similar to the Prime Material, especially the nicer ones. There are Earthly landscapes, towns, villages, commerce, and creatures that are just the modified-by-alignment version of their regular type. In the 3.5 DM's guide you had Mt. Clangeddin, a dwarf citadel that seems exactly like you'd imagine a great dwarven city on the prime plane, except the dwarves are celestial dwarves. Carceri has a big ruined city covered by sand and filled with desert-themed monsters and mummies and lots of hidden treasure for adventurers to loot.

Michael Moorcock created all sorts of equally weird and weirder settings in his Multiverse novels, and they were mostly what would be regarded in game terms as different versions of the Prime Material. When there was travel to a plane actually dominated by chaos or an element things were really really different - you weren't going to be able to find a tavern to spend your universally accepted gold pieces (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html).

[Goblin_Priest]

Really? Elemental planes are super that element. Everything on fire in the Elemental Plane of Fire, or whatever. Celestia is a big mountain on a fluffy cloud heaven, the nether realms are big fiery cave-pits, etc. We haven't seen any planes (aside from alternate realities in non-canon sources), that look like the Prime Material and have people.

The second part is also important, because while you could see some rolling hills somewhere on some of the afterlife planes, the people there are angels, and wouldn't just casually get eaten like that (also they wouldn't look like people, they would have wings and halos and such).

Also I can't really imagine an assault on one of the primal planes of Good by one of the Big Bad Gods would warrant no-one other than Thor paying attention to it.

There has really be no reason for Rich, either in-story or elsewhere, to elaborate much on his world's planar cosmology. It's typically fair to assume that it just follows the standard 3.5 cosmology, with a few name tweaks when IP rights apply.

That world is filled with outer planes that can greatly resemble at least parts of the prime material plane. Pretty much all planes have inhabitants, which make villages. There's also infinite demi-plane possibilities. Not all planes have an alignment affiliation. As for the inhabitants, they could be: outsiders (they don't all have wings and halos and such), petitioners (dead souls, technically outsiders as well), or mortal immigrants.

[Roland Itiative]

My first thought was... well, it was Xykon's fortress. Then Thor debunked it immediately, and my second thought was that he was just going to show the inside of a rift to Durkon (and presumably explain the world within the rifts, possibly also give a more detailed version of the Scribble story), and since Durkon is dead, they're going to use the Astral plane for that, since it overlaps with the Material plane.

The OotS world (probably the entirety of the Material plane, but it's possible it's just the planet itself) is the prison keeping the Snarl at bay, it's unlikely there's any Snarl-y things going on in other planes while the prison is still working.

[Gift Jeraff]

My first thought was... well, it was Xykon's fortress. Then Thor debunked it immediately, and my second thought was that he was just going to show the inside of a rift to Durkon (and presumably explain the world within the rifts, possibly also give a more detailed version of the Scribble story), and since Durkon is dead, they're going to use the Astral plane for that, since it overlaps with the Material plane.

The OotS world (probably the entirety of the Material plane, but it's possible it's just the planet itself) is the prison keeping the Snarl at bay, it's unlikely there's any Snarl-y things going on in other planes while the prison is still working.

All interplanar travel and some forms of intraplanar teleportation interacts with the Astral Plane, if I understand correctly, so since the Snarl's prison has been described as a demiplane, I think that might mean the Rifts are constantly intersecting with the Astral Plane.

[Rotipher]

Besides, why would they need to actually go to the Astral Plane for whatever exposition comes next?

Well, there's one thing that can sometimes be encountered on the Astral Plane and nowhere else, AFAIK, and that's the petrified remains of dead gods. Now, who were the Snarl's very first victims? The entire Greek pantheon.

If you ask me, Thor's bringing them to the petrified remains of Zeus, and intends to have a little posthumous chat with whatever's left of his fellow lightning/thunder god. Who, if any memories yet linger inside his huge stone head, will reveal something important about how his extended family of Olympians died.

[Finagle]

I don't get Thor's hint about Xykon's fortress. There's literally nothing of value in it. It has the fake Phylactery which means nothing to anyone. Might as well be a cheap plastic imitation of the Amulet of Yendor. Why would Thor want for OOTS to go there? Or even be aware it exists? It's just a red herring.

[Emanick]

I don't get Thor's hint about Xykon's fortress. There's literally nothing of value in it. It has the fake Phylactery which means nothing to anyone. Might as well be a cheap plastic imitation of the Amulet of Yendor. Why would Thor want for OOTS to go there? Or even be aware it exists? It's just a red herring.

I don’t think it was a hint at all, just a slip of the tongue.

[dtilque]

I don't get Thor's hint about Xykon's fortress.

Possibly just to suppress wild speculation on these boards and elsewhere. It's nice of Burlew to be so considerate.

[The Pilgrim]

All interplanar travel and some forms of intraplanar teleportation interacts with the Astral Plane, if I understand correctly, so since the Snarl's prison has been described as a demiplane, I think that might mean the Rifts are constantly intersecting with the Astral Plane.

I agree. As the Astral is the Plane that connects all other planes (including, in some D&D editions, the Inner Planes), then maybe it also connects the Material Plane to the Snarl's Prison Demiplane. Meaning that either there may be portals from the Astral to the Snar's, or maybe, as you stated, the rifts on the Material Plane intersect with the Astral Plane. And those intersections would be a convenient observation point for Thor as peeking through them he doesn't risks being attacked by the Snarl through the Rifts. (Plus, as already stated, he cant enter the Material Plane withoug breaking too many rules).

Those intersections could also be related to why and how the Ritual can move the Rifts. Or, maybe, be related to why the Ritual CAN'T move the Rifts. Meaning that... perhaps the Dark One's Plan was to just get the World Destroyed all along? Duhn duhn duhn...

This is of course open wild speculation (VERY open and VERY wild), as we lack concrete information on how the planar cosmology truly works on the OOTS verse. We only know that such cosmology ultimately serves the narrative. And, now that I think about it, The Giant could be taking the opportunity provided by this scene to explain in-comic some basic planar cosmology for the readers not familiarized with D&D.

[Goblin_Priest]

Possibly just to suppress wild speculation on these boards and elsewhere. It's nice of Burlew to be so considerate.

Seems plausible to me.

[blackwindbears]

Really? Elemental planes are super that element. Everything on fire in the Elemental Plane of Fire, or whatever. Celestia is a big mountain on a fluffy cloud heaven, the nether realms are big fiery cave-pits, etc. We haven't seen any planes (aside from alternate realities in non-canon sources), that look like the Prime Material and have people.

The second part is also important, because while you could see some rolling hills somewhere on some of the afterlife planes, the people there are angels, and wouldn't just casually get eaten like that (also they wouldn't look like people, they would have wings and halos and such).

Also I can't really imagine an assault on one of the primal planes of Good by one of the Big Bad Gods would warrant no-one other than Thor paying attention to it.

Well, let's bust out the Manual of the Planes, after a brief review, I'm betting The Heroic Domains of Ysgard. There are a number of other outer planes that fit the description, but most of the Norse gods live there on the first layer also named Ysgard (some sources have Gladsheim instead). Surtur lives in the second layer Musphelheim. Parts of Ysgard have oceans and continents, much like the material planes. There are cities and villages.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, let's bust out the Manual of the Planes, after a brief review, I'm betting The Heroic Domains of Ysgard. There are a number of other outer planes that fit the description, but most of the Norse gods live there on the first layer also named Ysgard (some sources have Gladsheim instead). Surtur lives in the second layer Musphelheim. Parts of Ysgard have oceans and continents, much like the material planes. There are cities and villages.

Yea, that would have been my first pick as well.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Oh, dream weaver Lord Thor ...


Fly me high through the starry skies
Maybe to an astral plane
Cross the highways of fantasy
Help me to forget today's pain