Level 20 Wizard Prestige Class Levels 6-9?

[thedarkcrash]

I am building a level 20 wizard right now and have a pretty solid idea what I want for my classes, except for levels 6-9. Domain Transmutation Wizard 5/ ??? 4/ Initiative of the Sevenfold 7/ Archmage 4
What is a 4 level dip I can take that doesn't lose me any arcane caster levels? My build is around polymorphing things.

[PhantasyPen]

Master Specialist?

[Zaq]

Master Specialist isn’t always a crazy power boost, but it almost never makes you worse (it even has a lower-than-average opportunity cost). It won’t be the centerpiece, but it’s serviceable filler.

Ruathar, similarly, will get you better skills for 3 levels and has basically zero prereqs other than “be level 6.” Never the centerpiece, but fine as filler.

[Jack_Simth]

Ruathar, similarly, will get you better skills for 3 levels and has basically zero prereqs other than “be level 6.” Never the centerpiece, but fine as filler.
Well, it also has some RP requirements.... but yeah. And, of course, there's always "Wizard".

A one level dip in Mindbender is usually useful (requires nongood, some skill ranks [cross-class OK, as they're that low], and charm person). Telepathy is useful, and it shores up your Fort save a bit.

[ViperMagnum357]

The OP is a Transmutation Domain Wizard, which means Domain Wizard and Generalist. I second some above suggestions: Mindbender 1 at level 6, Ruathar 1 at level 7, and Fatespinner 2 at levels 8 and 9 would be a quick and dirty build.

[thedarkcrash]

The OP is a Transmutation Domain Wizard, which means Domain Wizard and Generalist. I second some above suggestions: Mindbender 1 at level 6, Ruathar 1 at level 7, and Fatespinner 2 at levels 8 and 9 would be a quick and dirty build.

For the Mindbender do I bite the 2 skill points for 1 rank bullet? or am I missing something.

[Ramza00]

For the Mindbender do I bite the 2 skill points for 1 rank bullet? or am I missing something.

Telepathy is just that good, even for lost skill points. Plus it actually makes sense for a polymorph / transmutation wizard for it allows you to communicate easily in a form where you may not speak very well due to the shapechange effect.

Also it is useful for role playing in non combat situations. And in combat situations (Silence Effect, remember that silence its an automatic counterspell if readied against a spell that has verbal components.)

And it gets even more obscene when you take that feat that allows you to see people due to Telepathy (Mindsight, you sense anything with Int 1 or higher similar to blindsense.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Incantatrix 4 (PGtF) is the bee's knees, despite the loss of a school of magic. Being able to make a Spellcraft check (which you can take ten on) to add Persistent Spell to one of your current buffs after it's been cast is nothing short of amazing. It's pretty easy to get a high enough Spellcraft check to always succeed at doing this with even your highest level spells, especially if you take Item Familiar. You can even get its Iron Will prerequisite from the Otyugh Hole in CS.

Paragnostic Apostle (CC) is fantastic for using a few levels to fill out a build. Spatial Awareness and Mind Over Matter are probably the two most useful for a Wizard, but several others can be worthwhile depending on what your character does.

Mindbender 1 (CA) has been mentioned, and it's absolutely one of the best dips you can take on a nongood character. Pick up the feat Mindsight (LoM p126) and you've basically got Blindsense for non-mindless creatures out to the range of your Telepathy (100 ft.), which can also automatically detect their creature type and Intelligence score. It's especially useful if you've got Ray of Stupidity (SC) with metamagic like Split Ray.

[ViperMagnum357]

For the Mindbender do I bite the 2 skill points for 1 rank bullet? or am I missing something.

Ruathar get Diplomacy and Sense Motive, so you can take that at 6 and Mindbender at 7. If you are really bent out of shape over the lost skill points, you can burn feats on Versatile from OA or Cosmopolitan from FRCS. The Filidh Wizard variant from Dragon 324 is presumably a deal breaker, as it replaces Domain Wizard.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This is related to the character you're building, rather than the question posed in the initial post, but you should probably consider doing something like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23316548&postcount=2). Even if you don't use the Landlord feat to get yourself a psychoactive skin of proteus, you should still get one at your earliest opportunity to allow you to polymorph/metamorphosis at will without expending daily resources to do so.

Also, you might want to consider a dip into warshaper and/or master transmogrifist to give you additional versatility to your shapeshifting. Possibly a 3-level dip in illithid savant (using shapechanging magic to qualify) to get a class capstone... You'll be giving up a few CLs, but sometimes the added bennies are worth it for a true specialist, especially if that's what you really care about above everything else, and the game isn't that highly optimized.

[Zaq]

Wizard gets Bluff; get Diplomacy and Sense Motive, so you can take that at 6 and Mindbender at 7. If you are really bent out of shape over the 4 lost skill points, you can burn feats on Versatile from OA or Cosmopolitan from FRCS. The Filidh Wizard variant from Dragon 324 is presumably a deal breaker, as it replaces Domain Wizard.

I don’t think Wizard gets Bluff. At least not without variants that don’t seem to be in play here.

[ViperMagnum357]

I don’t think Wizard gets Bluff. At least not without variants that don’t seem to be in play here.

oops, I mentally tangled that with the Sorcerer. Need to find some Bluff, then.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's also the Geometer. Entering is relatively painless (just 9 ranks in Decipher Script and 4 cross-class ranks each in Disable Device and Search).
It's nothing quite as earthshaking as Incantatrix, but the Book of Geometry can save you a lot of gold if you're the type to collect spells.
Spellglyph is a cheap one-shot Silent Spell you can apply spontaneously, it can be useful if you're silenced or need to be quiet.
I've also gotten good use out of the Sigilsight ability, but that's very campaign-dependant.

All in all it's not exactly gamebreaking, but you get a bunch of neat abilities and it costs you very little.

[noob]

There's also the Geometer. Entering is relatively painless (just 9 ranks in Decipher Script and 4 cross-class ranks each in Disable Device and Search).
It's nothing quite as earthshaking as Incantatrix, but the Book of Geometry can save you a lot of gold if you're the type to collect spells.
Spellglyph is a cheap one-shot Silent Spell you can apply spontaneously, it can be useful if you're silenced or need to be quiet.
I've also gotten good use out of the Sigilsight ability, but that's very campaign-dependant.

All in all it's not exactly gamebreaking, but you get a bunch of neat abilities and it costs you very little.

Book of geometry do not reduce the ink cost.
It only reduce the number of pages taken.
So the saved money is not gigantic.
in fact due to still playing the ink cost you will probably still want boccop blessed book and then it is no longer really useful to take less pages unless you want to collect more than a hundred spells.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Mage of the Arcane Order? The only real requirement is Cooperative Spell (Knowledge Arcana and the other metamagic you probably have anyway, and the cash barely matters), which gets replaced by the quick bonus metamagic anyway. And 4 levels would be enough to get Spellpool 2 (up to 6th level spells), which is pretty nice.

[Mike Miller]

If you aren't 100% set on domain wizard, consider Transmuter. A specialist wizard is pretty good and Master Specialist requirements help you transition to Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. It is worth looking into.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Book of geometry do not reduce the ink cost.
It only reduce the number of pages taken.
So the saved money is not gigantic.
in fact due to still playing the ink cost you will probably still want boccop blessed book and then it is no longer really useful to take less pages unless you want to collect more than a hundred spells.

Sure, it's not much unless you're scribing a lot of spells, but it can add up.
And a Blessed Book isn't exactly cheap. You could afford one at level 8, but it's still almost half your WBL at that point so you probably won't. Or at least i wouldn't.
And with Book of Geometry you likely won't need one - you'd need to scribe 125 spells before it gets cost effective, which is probably more than most people will scribe unless it's a really long campaign.
It gets a lot more useful if you need to worry about having your spellbook stolen and want to use spell tattoos.

Sure, it's not on the level of Incantatrix. But it's a decent enough pick if you don't want to go for the gamebreaking power option.
Or need to deal with a lot of magic traps, because getting your CL to your search check is very helpful in that case.


If you aren't 100% set on domain wizard, consider Transmuter. A specialist wizard is pretty good and Master Specialist requirements help you transition to Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. It is worth looking into.
IotSV needs SF + GSF:Abjuration, so being a Master Transmuter doesn't help much. You're pretty much taking SF:Transmutation to get SF:Spellcraft for free, so you're not saving any feats.
And most of the good transmutation spells are buffs, so SF won't even help you much.
And the Minor School Esoterica isn't much of a selling point either.

[Cosi]

For what it's worth, Incantatrix 4 is pretty much the standard for filling in those levels in this kind of build. Making your buffs Persistent for free is pretty crazy good.

[Mike Miller]

IotSV needs SF + GSF:Abjuration, so being a Master Transmuter doesn't help much. You're pretty much taking SF:Transmutation to get SF:Spellcraft for free, so you're not saving any feats.
And most of the good transmutation spells are buffs, so SF won't even help you much.
And the Minor School Esoterica isn't much of a selling point either.

:palmface: I knew it was abjuration, why was I thinking transmutation? Just a brainfart, I suppose.

[Nifft]

Incantatrix 4 has already been mentioned. If it's legal in your game, it can be amazing. But it does cost you a school.

Blood Magus 4 isn't nearly as amazing, but it does get you access to Bluff and Heal as class skills, the latter of which is nice if you want Graft Flesh later. Costs two feats to get in, pays you back with two effective Item Creation feats -- though you need to ask your DM if they count for the purpose of meeting prereqs. Costs zero caster levels if you stop at 4.

Malconvoker 4 (with an option on more later) fits nicely, though you may find it more interesting to continue Malconvoker than branch into Archmage after Iot7V. Costs you one spellcasting level to get in.


If you're in Eberron or have access to Eberron content...

Escalation Mage 4 (and then +2 levels later) gets you some good stuff, arguably better than 2 levels of Archmage.

Recaster 5 (you want all 5 levels) costs you one spellcasting level to get in, but gives back significantly. You must be a Changeling, but they're cool so this isn't necessarily a bad deal.

[thedarkcrash]

For what it's worth, Incantatrix 4 is pretty much the standard for filling in those levels in this kind of build. Making your buffs Persistent for free is pretty crazy good.

How can they make buffs cheaper/free?

[Jack_Simth]

How can they make buffs cheaper/free?

Incantatrix-3 (Player's Guide to Faerun version) grants Metamagic Effect (Su) to apply metamagic to spells already in effect with a Spellcraft check 3+Int mod times per day. Add Persistent Spell, and now your buffs last all day at no additional cost. Cooperative Metamagic (Su) at 2nd lets the Incantatrix apply apply metamagic to spells other casters are currently casting (again, with a Spellcraft check) 3+Int mod times per day. In general, you use Metamagic Effect on spells you cast, Cooperative Metamagic on those cast by others.

So at the beginning of the day, you have the Cleric cast Mass Vigor (or Mass Lesser Vigor, or Vigorous Circle, depending on level) while you Persist it. That covers the out of combat healing needs of the party. You do the same for such useful spells as Recitation, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, and any other buffs you'd like - using Metamagic Effect for any spells you cast, and Cooperative Metamagic for any spells others cast. You want to make sure to save at least half (possibly 2/3rds) of your uses for both, and double up (or triple up) on preparing all spells involved, as your DM WILL be throwing dispels at you in very short order.

I'm not sure why Incantatrix-4, other than the bonus metmamagic feat (which is useful if you're looking for some fill levels).

[sleepyphoenixx]

I'm not sure why Incantatrix-4, other than the bonus metmamagic feat (which is useful if you're looking for some fill levels).

That's pretty much it. A bonus feat is pretty good after all. You could go for the Mindbender dip, but that only works if you're non-good and take the skills cross-class.
And it's really only worth it if Mindsight is allowed, otherwise telepathy isn't that great imo.

[Jack_Simth]

That's pretty much it. A bonus feat is pretty good after all. You could go for the Mindbender dip, but that only works if you're non-good and take the skills cross-class.
And it's really only worth it if Mindsight is allowed, otherwise telepathy isn't that great imo.
... I'm guessing you've never needed to discuss tactics in a fight with creatures who know the language? Or needed to interrogate a prisoner that doesn't? Or wanted to hold a conversation while sneaking?

Sure, there's other spells for that (Tongues, Comprehend Languages, Telepathic Bond, et cetera), but it's handy.

[Cosi]

Incantatrix 4 is there for the bonus feat. It means that the class is net-neutral on feats (I recommend Extend, Persistent, and Chain as your metamagic feats), and it's better than most 1 level dips you can grab. Mindbender is alright too.

[sleepyphoenixx]

... I'm guessing you've never needed to discuss tactics in a fight with creatures who know the language? Or needed to interrogate a prisoner that doesn't? Or wanted to hold a conversation while sneaking?

Sure, there's other spells for that (Tongues, Comprehend Languages, Telepathic Bond, et cetera), but it's handy.

I'm not saying it's useless. Sure it's handy, but is it worth more than an extra metamagic feat? That's something everyone has to decide for themselves, but my answer would be no.
One of my reasons being that you can get very similar benefits (and quite a few on top of that) very cheaply with a Communication Companion Spirit (DMG2).
And since it only has one contender (the Magical Storage one, arguably, but i like Communication better anyway) you're not giving up anything for it except a minimal amount of gold and some XP.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Incantatrix 4 is there for the bonus feat. It means that the class is net-neutral on feats (I recommend Extend, Persistent, and Chain as your metamagic feats), and it's better than most 1 level dips you can grab. Mindbender is alright too.

You can use the Otyugh Hole (CS) to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it, so the only feat it costs to take Incantatrix is a metamagic feat you probably would have already taken.

Incantatrix (PGtF is the current version) is worth taking for its 3rd level ability Metamagic Effect. You can make a Spellcraft check (and take ten on that check) to apply a metamagic feat to a spell after it's cast. So cast Shield, then make a Spellcraft check to make it Persistent. Cast Expeditious Retreat, make a Spellcraft check to make it Persistent. Cast Swift Fly, make a Spellcraft check to make it Persistent. Cast Magic Circle Against Evil, make a Spellcraft check to make it Persistent. It's better than Divine Metamagic if you pump your Spellcraft check, which is fairly easy to do.

Its 2nd level ability Cooperative Metamagic is also pretty good. Party Cleric is casting Bless on the party, make a Spellcraft check to make it Persistent. Party Cleric is casting Mass Lesser Vigor on the party, make a Spellcraft check to make it Persistent. This ability can technically even be used on your own spells when not in combat, since the action economy system only exists during initiative/combat. But you probably have sufficient uses of Metamagic Effect to persist all the spells you'll need, so it's often unnecessary to argue for this use of Cooperative Metamagic.