Players being pickpocketed

[Julio]

Hey everyone,
I'm Julio, I'm new here. I tried to post a hello but the introduce yourself thread seemed to be closed, so: hello 😃

I have been playing D&D for quite a while and acting mostly as a DM. But right now I need a forum to discuss rules and situations away from the prying eyes of my group so I registered here 😎

Well my first question has to do with the pickpocket skill. My group will be in a huge harvest festival in our next game and I'm planning lots of roleplay and interesting interactions. That icludes the risk of being pickpocketed by clever rogues in the area. You know, large gatherings of drunk people and stuff.

So thing is, the skill rules just say if you succeed on a DC 20 pickpocket test, you are able to take an item from the victim. And the victim makes a spot check with the DC of the rogue's pickpocket test to detect they were being robbed. Both things can happen - you can succeed AND be detected if both tests were high enough, for instance.

But one of my players once just said that they were stuffing their gold and everything inside their backpacks so they weren't stolen out of their pockets. But am I right to think this wouldn't be enough to make you immune to pickpocketing because a skilled rogue could just snatch your amulet without you seeing it, for example, or cut your backpack and take something from inside? Would this preventive action from the PCs make for a higher DC (assuming the DC 20 is for picking pockets only?)? And if the rogue NPC succeeds in pickpocketing them, how do I determine what was stolen? I wanted this to be a minor nuisance, not ripping them off their main magical items. Any suggestions?
This seems the type of situation in which when the PC uses their skill, they really want a reward; and I think they have the right of it, but when it comes to them being stolen, they will really try to discuss every detail why they wouldn't be so - a clear case of double standards. Have you dealt with this before?
Thanks a lot 👍🏽

[Darth Ultron]

In general, there is a simple rule that says if a character takes a smart or clever action, you simply give them a +2 circumstance bonus on the roll. And it works just fine for hiding valuables.

A thief could grab anything, anytime...but often go for easy targets. Jewelry that is out in the open is a good one, as is a coin pouch/wallet/purse.

Though, in general, I do recommend just skipping this type of fun. You roll some dice and steal something from the players....and at best slow the game down, and at worst, just make the player mad or unhappy.

[EldritchWeaver]

That is the first time I actually agree with Darth Ultron. Did hell freeze over? Or was the real one replaced by an alien body snatcher? I'll never know!

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Generally pickpocketing means grabbing things that are accessible; this could mean pockets, pouches, jewelry, etc. An item can be made nearly impossible to pickpocket by say putting it inside your backpack and under several layers of spare clothes and such. However this gold is now also inaccessible to the player character.

Anyone protecting their gold by keeping in in a nonmagical inaccessible space has to deal with their gold being inaccessible. The best solution in my experience is having a money pouch with only their walking around money say 2d10 sp and 2d10 cp maybe a few go at higher levels. Otherwise the character is opening their backpack for every purchase of ale or roast nuts. If someone insisted on using the backpack all the time they'll soon be targeted and followed after flashing their bag o' gold and pickpocketed while making their next purchase.

[Fizban]

The best place to hide your gold is a hidden pocket. Can't steal what you can't find, and you can't find the contents of a hidden pocket without searching the correct place. Which is the inside of clothes someone is wearing, or the inside of the bag that they're carrying. Even just a buttoned jacket with an not-officially-hidden inner pocket is essentially proof, let alone the 'ol wallet strapped to your inner thigh. A common one in the Wheel of Time series was taking out only a small purse, worn tied around the neck hanging down the shirt/dress/etc. Once again, unless you're wearing a fairly open top, that's not gonna just fall out without you knowing someone went in there, and it's quite easily accessible too.

Ultimately, pickpocketing only works on people who aren't actually trying to guard their "pockets" (note that this includes most modern people, who might go their entire lives without ever seeing the deed done firsthand). Any serious attempt at preventing it should automatically succeed, unless the PCs are being stalked by PC-tier thieves on a mission to steal from the PCs specifically, who thus know exactly how they're hiding their valuables and have extraordinary and magical resources to distract and pilfer them. Cutting off pouches or snatching backpacks can still be done by anyone, resulting in an automatic chase through crowded streets, much more interesting.


Also, don't forget that little insignificant minor detail: the one thing that will unite any group of players and send them on an absolute rampage towards one specific goal, is stealing their stuff. Slaughter a village and you'll be lucky if anyone even notices. Steal an apple and they will hound that thief to the ends of the earth, kill him, his family, his dog, and sell the bodies to a necromancer.

[Krobar]

Here's how I would handle that. If your characters are taking active steps to prevent pickpockets from getting their valuables, those actions will be noticed. Most pickpockets like easy targets, and will likely move on to easier prey rather than chance being caught and a fight breaking out.

[Elkad]

You could slit a pack and pick small items out of it. It's not in close body contact, and it's behind the wearer, so it's probably not a lot more difficult than cutting purse strings. Later that night you unroll your bedroll, only to discover it's full of holes and the potions you had rolled up in it are all gone.

The problem with Slight of Hand is the table is barely even a table.

It needs scaling (or lots of big circumstance adjustments).

Something like:
DC 15 for an exposed belt pouch.
DC 20 for a wallet in a pocket
DC 25 for a bracelet
DC 30 for a ring.
DC 60 for a toe ring inside a boot.


And of course pickpockets at a festival have extra advantages. Heavy crowds alone should give a circumstance bonus, nevermind dedicated distractions who are in on the game with Aid Another checks.
Even if you spot the success, the second slight-of-hand check to hand the stolen item off to yet another companion is MUCH easier. So you Spot the urchin lifting your purse, but you don't get the purse back anyway, because any one of the 7 other urchins already has it, and they are moving 8 directions.

Plus ways to make chasing the thief almost impossible. Look at the videos from the 2016 Summer Olympics, or any other major event with a street crime problem. Stroll up to a stopped vehicle, snatch an item from inside it (often right out of the owner's hand) and just run away.
A D&D character could just shoot the thief (either lethally, or with a disabling effect), but the thief usually has friends who can continue with the item. And if you get out of your carriage to pursue, you are exposing yourself to attack, leaving your vehicle and contents unattended, etc.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Ultimately, pickpocketing only works on people who aren't actually trying to guard their "pockets" (note that this includes most modern people, who might go their entire lives without ever seeing the deed done firsthand). Any serious attempt at preventing it should automatically succeed, unless the PCs are being stalked by PC-tier thieves on a mission to steal from the PCs specifically, who thus know exactly how they're hiding their valuables and have extraordinary and magical resources to distract and pilfer them. Cutting off pouches or snatching backpacks can still be done by anyone, resulting in an automatic chase through crowded streets, much more interesting.

This. Any halfway competent pickpocket knows how to tell a good target from a bad one. They go after careless, wealthy merchants and nobles, not heavily armed murderhobos.
The only actual pickpockets high level PCs should have to deal with are stupid and desperate ones, and then only for a somewhat plot-relevant reason, not just because.
A hungry beggar kid who doesn't know any better might try to steal a few coins if they're carried in an accessible place, but unless nobody put any ranks in spot that's a roleplay opportunity and maybe a plot hook, not a serious threat of theft.

If you as a DM want to introduce pickpockets into your campaign you should think through why they'd take the risk to steal from the PCs. And have a plan for them in mind beyond "they try to steal from the PCs". Otherwise it's just an annoyance that adds nothing to your game.

[SangoProduction]

Unless you're trying to get rid of an item, in which case, I would probably talk to the player first, there's only one way I would handle NPCs pickpocketing a PC.
That is...it happens, and they notice it. "You hear a snip as the weight of your coin pouch falls off your arm. Then the greedy, gleeful laugh of [person] as their footsteps are hastily running in [that direction]. (And if needed:) You could go and catch them." And it probably wouldn't be a totally random, nameless thief either. Nothing too in depth, but give it some meaning. Best of all is if it worked in to your larger narrative about the king's crackdown on guilds forcing once-honest adventurers in to crime.

I mean, this adds an interaction that the player can take an active role in. Succeeding/failing based on perception check is just something that happens to them, which isn't very engaging (and for some players, it can actually be rather frustrating to know you just failed a perception check, and now have no money, and have to just let them go because they didn't notice).

[Deophaun]

Technically, Sleight of Hand can be defeated by Sleight of Hand. After all, how can you steal what you cannot find? And finding something hidden via Sleight of Hand will require a Search check involving frisking, which is not exactly subtle. Also, hiding something on your body is the one usage of Sleight of Hand that can be done while untrained.

[Yuki Akuma]

Searching through a full backpack for valuables requires at least a Full Round action and if you don't know where everything is possibly even a Search check. Unless you just steal the whole backpack but that's kinda easy to spot.

Complete Scoundrel also has rules for hidden compartments - you can put one in a backpack, for instance, for the cost of 1 GP, cutting the carrying capacity of the backpack by 10% but giving about 5% of that back in a hidden space that requires a DC 20 Search check to even find.

Or you can sew a pocket onto the inside of a set of clothes for 2 GP, which has a Search check DC of 15 or the result of your SoH check, whichever's higher.

For 20 gold pieces, you can add a hiden compartment to your boot heel - it's pretty small and takes a full round to retrieve anything, but the Search DC is 25.

[Psyren]

This seems the type of situation in which when the PC uses their skill, they really want a reward; and I think they have the right of it, but when it comes to them being stolen, they will really try to discuss every detail why they wouldn't be so - a clear case of double standards.

Of course it's a double-standard. The PCs are heroes and thus innately exceptional. You shouldn't be treating them like any old easy mark for pickpocketing, like a foppish NPC noble or a distracted NPC merchant. It's the same reason stuff like Diplomacy and Perform shouldn't be used to influence them either.

But your biggest concern should be what happens after you use this. Do you really want your players to be clutching their purses as they go down every city street from then on? That's going to be the real result - "I check the crowd for pickpockets" in every city, in every system, for the rest of your gaming career. Worth it for one gotcha moment? I would say no, but that's my opinion.

[Yuki Akuma]

Of course it's a double-standard. The PCs are heroes and thus innately exceptional. You shouldn't be treating them like any old easy mark for pickpocketing, like a foppish NPC noble or a distracted NPC merchant. It's the same reason stuff like Diplomacy and Perform shouldn't be used to influence them either.

+1

The PCs are badass semi-superheroes. No matter what the system is, but especially in games like D&D. Early-mid level D&D player characters make SEAL Team 6 looks like amateurs when they concentrate.

[Reversefigure4]

"Where, specifically, on your person are your valuables?" is the kind of thing that's usually in the basket of much-too-detailed minutae.

Most games don't bother to keep track of the weight of gold, so PCs can routinely be walking around with 20,000 gold on their equipment list. Where and what is that gold? Is it small gems (good value-to-weight ratio?) What happens when a PC wants to buy 1 copper piece worth of apple? The apple merchant might not be able to make change for a gold piece. Are you bothering to track such tiny expenses and actually making sure the player pays for their daily meals, or is it just handwaved? Can the PCs keep part of their money in a bank, like most modern people do, or concealed somewhere in their house? Must they travel with the entire hoard in their pocket.

If you want PCs to get pickpocketed, I'd suggest a simple Perception check vs the Sleight of Hand. If failed, "later on, Bob, you notice that several of the more easily accessible coins in your pocket have been lifted. Lose 1d10 gold" (or some negligible amount). But doing it at all - particularly if you actually steal a valuable amount - is just a recipe to make the players paranoid enough to describe endlessly how they've protected their coin and how they're staying away from thieves. (As you might expect, really. I imagine most of us here don't sweat walking around with a wallet in our pocket expecting robbery, but would be a lot more nervous walking around with the entire value of every single dollar and asset you possess in your pocket.

[PunBlake]

Stealing from PCs is generally not recommended unless its for a plot hook. The only time I've done it myself as DM is as a low-level, rolled random encounter with halfling thieves when camping outside of a town, with the appropriate chance for it to devolve into combat without civilians involved. If the PCs on watch miss all their checks and someone has their backpack stolen, it derails your campaign until someone tracks the thieves and gives them whatever the murderhobos du jour consider "justice." It can be fun, but no one likes being robbed, even if you explain OOC that they all failed 5+ spot and listen checks.

EDIT: To be more relevant to the topic of the thread, I'll suggest how I'd use pickpocketing as a plot hook in the OP's scenario.
1) A thief or group of them will case the crowd before trying to lift anything. Consider using the Assess Opponent rules for Sense Motive (CAdv) to pick out rich-looking but easy targets.
1a) Maybe with a decent DC spot check, this can be noticed. Suspicious movements in a crowd.
2) Have the PCs notice some NPC being robbed, and have some vague plans based on who it is and how everyone involved may react.
2a) If the PCs don't notice, maybe the rich NPC target, on noticing they've been robbed, accuse the PCs (or some other random NPC) of the theft. Now, we have a mystery to solve!
3) Let the dice fall as they may. Be prepared to ad-lib. Only do light prep for each scenario you think can happen.

Maybe the thieves botch the Assess Opponent check and try to rob PCs (note: this should fail). Maybe the PCs decide to help the guards for the possibility of reward, and maybe they chase the thief to their lair... or maybe they get lost in the crowd.

[Theobod]

+1

The PCs are badass semi-superheroes. No matter what the system is, but especially in games like D&D. Early-mid level D&D player characters make SEAL Team 6 looks like amateurs when they concentrate.

Clearly never played Cyberpunk 2020 ;)

[Psyren]

Clearly never played Cyberpunk 2020 ;)

Or Call of C'thulhu. Yeah, the PCs aren't always superheroes, but in D&D they very much are.

[Bronk]

Hey everyone,
I'm Julio, I'm new here. I tried to post a hello but the introduce yourself thread seemed to be closed, so: hello 😃

Hi!



Well my first question has to do with the pickpocket skill. My group will be in a huge harvest festival in our next game and I'm planning lots of roleplay and interesting interactions. That icludes the risk of being pickpocketed by clever rogues in the area. You know, large gatherings of drunk people and stuff.

Normally I'd agree with the others that this would be a huge hassle, but it sounds like you know what you're doing.




But one of my players once just said that they were stuffing their gold and everything inside their backpacks so they weren't stolen out of their pockets. But am I right to think this wouldn't be enough to make you immune to pickpocketing because a skilled rogue could just snatch your amulet without you seeing it, for example, or cut your backpack and take something from inside?

I totally agree with Darth Ultron... they took some precautions, so give them a circumstance bonus, but that's it. My reasoning is this: This isn't actually the pickpocket skill, it's the Sleight of Hand skill. It doesn't matter if their items are literally in their pockets or not, you can make a base DC20 check to 'lift a small object from a person', and the check would include getting through whatever they did to their backpacks to close them up. I mean, they're still just backpacks, not Fort Knox.

I do disagree with some of the others who said that they wouldn't be targeted by pickpockets just because they were Adventurers, because with high risk comes high reward. They could be targeted by a team of pickpockets, or a high level rogue, or heck, even Erbin the Beggar God!
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020406a

Personally, I wouldn't actually cut their equipment, but I guess it depends on what they did to close their packs up. If they just tied it up really well, I'd just specify that the laces were cut, or something like that.

So, yeah, I say give them a +2 circumstance bonus to their Spot checks if you think they did a good job with their preparations, and maybe another +2 if they say they're looking out for each other, and so on. However, also give the pickpockets circumstance bonuses based on distractions, bluff checks, working as a team, and how crowded the area is at any given time! You can turn it into a skill check minigame based on the PCs originality.

Now, if they go above and beyond, roll with it. Maybe one of them tied a bell in their pack as an extra alert! Or maybe a rogue put a trap in there, or a wizard is keeping his poisonous familiar in there or started storing decoy items with explosive runes on them. That kind of thing should be rewarded... or punished, if it endangers the crowd.

[Arbane]

Plus ways to make chasing the thief almost impossible. Look at the videos from the 2016 Summer Olympics, or any other major event with a street crime problem. Stroll up to a stopped vehicle, snatch an item from inside it (often right out of the owner's hand) and just run away.
A D&D character could just shoot the thief (either lethally, or with a disabling effect), but the thief usually has friends who can continue with the item. And if you get out of your carriage to pursue, you are exposing yourself to attack, leaving your vehicle and contents unattended, etc.

The PCs will burn the entire town down over that missing 2d6 GP.

[Fizban]

Rules Compendium makes it clear that there are limits to what you can Sleight of Hand

The DM is free to limit what you can take in this manner- coin purses and tiny weapons are fair game, but securely worn items, such as bracers of armor, are not. If the creature you're taking something from knows you're trying to do so, it can resist, forcing you to use the disarm or grapple rules rather than these.

And as previously mentioned, retrieving something from a backpack is a full round action, not a sleight of hand action.

For stealing things out of backpacks, magic still has the last word, thanks to extradimensional spaces. Bags of Holding and Handy Haversacks hold even more than a normal backpack, removing any vestige of a claim that fast retrieval is possible. The Handy Haversack's auto-sort only functions for the wearer. And if necessary, the Belt of Many Pockets just straight up says only the wearer can retrieve a stored item at all.

Of course if you store all your important stuff in an extradimensional space and a pickpocket tries to slit your bag. . . foomp, all gone. Those are actually terrible places to put anything important.

[Nifft]

Would the pick-pocketing lead to something fun?

I've used a pick-pocket against PCs before. The Wizard PC immediately noticed that his expensive wand was missing, and chased down the young street urchin who had palmed it. That began a city chase scene between a child and an adult who could cast fly and fireball.

When the PC caught the kid, there wasn't even a fight.

The PC saw the desperation and squalor -- and opened an orphanage. Got some cleaning staff & apprentices out of the deal, eventually, and inadvertently started a competing thieve's guild (since the kid was a Rogue). It was a character-building experience, and gave the party new contacts on the under-side of town.

-----

If the PC hadn't immediately noticed, then I expect he'd have used a spell like locate object to track down the wand later, and a similar chase scene would have occurred (with a mild delay). He absolutely would have noticed by evening when he put his gear away.

[Bronk]

Rules Compendium makes it clear that there are limits to what you can Sleight of Hand

The only limits are those determined by the DM, so Julio is all set there.



And as previously mentioned, retrieving something from a backpack is a full round action, not a sleight of hand action.

The Rules Compendium says it's a move action, and in any event this isn't a careful retrieval of a specific item, it's a theft, possibly of a random item.



Of course if you store all your important stuff in an extradimensional space and a pickpocket tries to slit your bag. . . foomp, all gone. Those are actually terrible places to put anything important.

On the other hand, if they have an extra dimensional space of their own, and are dexterous enough to turn their mark's bag inside out so that it's contents spill out, and they were to catch them all... the weight of the original bag wouldn't change, and they could walk away with the entire contents with the mark none the wiser.


Would the pick-pocketing lead to something fun?

That all sounds pretty awesome.

[Julio]

Hey everyone!!! :biggrin:

Thanks heaps for all the insightful answers, questions, considerations and general advice given. I really appreciated all of it.

I'm sorry I didn't return to this post. I though I'd receive an e-mail notification once someone answered, but I failed to see I had left the notification option through the control panel, only and not instant e-mail notifications - here's MY failed perception test! haha :smallwink:

Ok, so I hadn't explained everything I intended with the pickpocketing thing (ok, sleight of hand thing - gives another meaning when you see it this way, yes!). There are two things I considered before bringing this into my game:

1) The PCs are now in 7-8 lvl, but some of them - the bard and the rogue - have MUCH more gold than they should have by this level, like double the amount!!! They have actively looked for opportunities to make money, including gambling, risky break-in quests, smart commerce opportunities and some bluffing and forgery too, so I see it as a big part of the fun they have using these high-carisma and connected characters and we have a lot of fun with it.

But well, before the festival they were all cocky and willing to show off and to spend all their money - they want to buy magical items, make bets, definitely will be walking around with valuable stuff, buying girls drinks, etc. - I thought this would definitely get the attention of pickpockets in the area, but since they are obviously adventurers, most pickpockets woukd look for more easy prey, but a confident and skilled one could think it would be a good opportunity to snatch something valuable. It would be like an obvious consequence of them acting this way - not like a punishment, so I wouldn't take something essential, but they were the ones acting all boasty...

Which brings us to point 2) I wanted to introduce an NPC to the party. He's a chaotic neutral duskblade with a couple of rogue levels, a gispy-type with connections everywhere and a hatred for wizards and sorcerers. He knows about the wizards in the region and hate them. Thing is, the PCs came to the festival looking for info about this big bad sorcerer guy who is a Zenth and is causing an uproar in the region. He is the boss of this evil group who is using fake quest ads to lure low level adventurers to these apparently super exciting quests, but once they hit the road the bad guys kidnap the poor newbies for their experiments!!! This evil group whom this sorcerer belongs to is actually bringing some "shadow plagues" - parasites from the plane of shadow - into Faerûn (yes, I borrowed it from the Las Plagas from RE4 :smallyuk: ).

So basically my idea is that the gipsy guy would be a dubious type, he has information the PCs need on the sorcerer but he's also a smart ass who would definitely profit from that - I thought he might try to pickpocket something and if he gets caught by the PCs, they would probably argue and somehow eventually find out they have common interests. So would they be willing to forget his theft if he gives them information on the evil sorcerer? Would they trust him? Or even ask him to work with them? Would he join the group for a sorcerer chase?

I thought it would be interesting to have a mysterious, double-edged NPC for them to deal with - who is not necessarily a villain himself, might help the PCs somehow but also is not entirely trustworthy because well, a cliché-gipsy type CN duskblade/rogue lol. This is because in our previous campaing, which is a crossover to this one, they played epic champions of righteousness, everything was so easily-perceveid, black/white, friend or foe... but in our current game, I'm enjoying throwing the PCs into morally grey areas so they have a really different feel, and it makes it specially interesting that they are going through these situations in the exact same events they played with the champions of good in the prevous campaing, such as this festival. It's like they are revisiting the same story but from a whole another perspective, seeing their previous PCs as NPCs and having to deal with the consequences of their previous character's choices during these events. Craaaazzyyy stuff!

Well, I specially liked Fizban's point that they would get crazy if they were actually stolen and this would make the group unite after a goal - in this campaing, because it's not as straightforward as our previous one, we are having problems tieing the group together and this seems like an awesome suggestion haha :smallbiggrin:

I also really enjoyed Elkad's and Yuki's mechanichs suggestions and Nifft's and PunBlake's plot ideas which helped me refine my thinking, and overall all replies were useful somehow! And I was thinking no one had replied and decided to log in tonight for bumping my question to the top again to see if it raised any interest and found all this engangement here :smalltongue: :smallsmile:

[farothel]

Now, if they go above and beyond, roll with it. Maybe one of them tied a bell in their pack as an extra alert! Or maybe a rogue put a trap in there, or a wizard is keeping his poisonous familiar in there or started storing decoy items with explosive runes on them. That kind of thing should be rewarded... or punished, if it endangers the crowd.

I know have a vision of someone lifting an item of V and going back to their den, looking at it and seeing 'I prepared explosive runes today' written on it.

Anyway, as it has been said before, PCs will often do a lot of crazy stuff to get even a few gold back, so if you do go forward with it, make sure you are prepared for this. And as others said, criminals mostly go after the easy targets, which even mid-level D&D PCs should not be (or at least look like they're not).

A way to do this would be that one of their enemies has requested the local thieves to specifically rob the PCs. That way you can make it plot related and even take their magical items from them.