Should I allow Ur-Priests into my game?

[gogogome]

I had it banned originally, but now I think that was a mistake.

As long as I ban all creatures that have wish as an SLA, I don't think Ur-Priests are that big of a deal. Early accesss to 9th level spells was what initially got it banned but seeing how it's only 1/day forever, I think it's not a big deal.

A lot of people tout "dual 9ths make it broken", but that's only at level 20, and i'm thinking having both arcane and divine 9th level spells doesn't matter because you can only cast one spell at a time, and you're going to have less 9th level spells than a normal spellcaster.

Is there an abuse I'm not seeing here?

[noob]

I had it banned originally, but now I think that was a mistake.

As long as I ban all creatures that have wish as an SLA, I don't think Ur-Priests are that big of a deal. Early accesss to 9th level spells was what initially got it banned but seeing how it's only 1/day forever, I think it's not a big deal.

A lot of people tout "dual 9ths make it broken", but that's only at level 20, and i'm thinking having both arcane and divine 9th level spells doesn't matter because you can only cast one spell at a time, and you're going to have less 9th level spells than a normal spellcaster.

Is there an abuse I'm not seeing here?

You still get bonus slots so it is 2 level 9 spells per day unless you somehow have less than 28 in your ur priest casting stat.
Also you get two level 9 spell at level 14 with the normal entry(and even earlier if you retrain) and then a third one at level 15.(siphon spell power is quite awesome)
In fact with steal spell like ability if you steal from the right creature(that you trap) you can get time stop which while not being wish level of breaking is more or less one bonus level 9 spell.
Basically people who use ur priest for double ninths is not getting that much more than someone doing ur priest as early as possible.
With siphon spell power it also means that if you wait multiple days without re-preparing spells you can store up more ninth level spell.

[ColorBlindNinja]

How high powered is the game you're running? Casting a single 9th level spell can break a game.

[gogogome]

You still get bonus slots so it is 2 level 9 spells per day unless you somehow have less than 28 in your ur priest casting stat.
Also you get two level 9 spell at level 14 with the normal entry(and even earlier if you retrain) and then a third one at level 15.(siphon spell power is quite awesome)
In fact with steal spell like ability if you steal from the right creature(that you trap) you can get time stop which while not being wish level of breaking is more or less one bonus level 9 spell.
Basically people who use ur priest for double ninths is not getting that much more than someone doing ur priest as early as possible.
With siphon spell power it also means that if you wait multiple days without re-preparing spells you can store up more ninth level spell.

I'll have to look into siphon spell power but if this is all the ur-priest can do then I think my table can handle it.


How high powered is the game you're running? Casting a single 9th level spell can break a game.

I have never seen a 9th level spell break the game in combat, though I have seen spells break the game with loops or some other down time thing.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I have never seen a 9th level spell break the game in combat,

How would you define "break" in this instance? If you mean outright end a battle, Gate and Shades (emulating Trap the Soul) can both do the job.


though I have seen spells break the game with loops or some other down time thing.

To be certain. Ice Assassin is probably the worst offender in this regard, but Implore is pretty bad, too.

[gogogome]

How would you define "break" in this instance? If you mean outright end a battle, Gate and Shades (emulating Trap the Soul) can both do the job.



To be certain. Ice Assassin is probably the worst offender in this regard, but Implore is pretty bad, too.

if a spell outright ends an encounter then I think the fault is on me for not designing a proper encounter. I no longer do 4v1 encounters. It seems there's nothing that can challenge a Gated Solar though, but i'm fine with that, 1,000xp to skip one encounter. And my players seem to avoid that spell because it does make the game a bit boring.

Ice Assassin is banned at my table for obvious reasons. That spell is seriously whack.

[Silva Stormrage]

Ur Priest isn't particularly much stronger than a regular tier 1 spellcaster. It's steal SLA type abilities may seem scary but often times if PC's have access to mind control or planar binding to get those monsters under their control if they truly want it.

In general I have seen Ur Priest is most commonly used as a way to use dual progression PRC's like mystic theurge more effectively. I don't think it's ban worthy anymore than wizard is.

[ColorBlindNinja]

if a spell outright ends an encounter then I think the fault is on me for not designing a proper encounter.

I see.


It seems there's nothing that can challenge a Gated Solar though, but i'm fine with that, 1,000xp to skip one encounter. And my players seem to avoid that spell because it does make the game a bit boring.

In that case, your players are unlikely to abuse spells like Implore.


Ice Assassin is banned at my table for obvious reasons. That spell is seriously whack.

Yep, it's one of the few spells in 3.5 that breaks the game if you try to use it at all.

[DeTess]

Provided you're playing a fairly high-op game, and don't allow an early-entry shenanigan, I don't think it's going to be a massive issue.

[OgresAreCute]

Provided you're playing a fairly high-op game, and don't allow an early-entry shenanigan, I don't think it's going to be a massive issue.

Is it possible to enter ur-priest early at all? I was under the impression that skill ranks can't be spoofed. Only thing I can think of is play something with lower ECL than RHD.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Is it possible to enter ur-priest early at all? I was under the impression that skill ranks can't be spoofed. Only thing I can think of is play something with lower ECL than RHD.

The highest skill rank you need is 8, so you can enter at level 5 at the earliest, yes?

[OgresAreCute]

The highest skill rank you need is 8, so you can enter at level 5 at the earliest, yes?

While that is "early", it's still the intended entry point. By entering early I (and presumably the poster I was quoting) meant entering before the intended entry point (for example using various feat combinations to spoof 3rd level spells at level 1 to enter Rainbow Servant at level 2).

[ColorBlindNinja]

While that is "early", it's still the intended entry point. By entering early I (and presumably the poster I was quoting) meant entering before the intended entry point (for example using various feat combinations to spoof 3rd level spells at level 1 to enter Rainbow Servant at level 2).

I figured, but you couldn't do that because you wouldn't have the required skills?

[Ramza00]

Ur-Priests can be nasty, but the get less spell slots per day and Cleric 9s is less good than Wizard 9s before you add "cleric domains" to Ur-Priest via PRCs really the only super broken spell at character level 14 is Gate, but Gate is kind of broken at any level. Miracle, Mass Heal, Energy Drain, Astral Projection are all great but they are not the insanity of Gate or some of the other Wizard 9 spells.

----

One Option you could do as DM is you get the higher level spell slots per the Ur Priest, but you can only gain spells known of LvL 1 Spells at Level 1 HD, Level 3 Spells at Level 5 HD, and so on and so on with Level 9 Spells at HD 17, Level 8 Spells at 15 HD, and Level 7 Spells at 13 HD.

But you still get the empty spell slots. Thus an Ur Priest can prepare 7th level spells into an 9th slot, or he can do metamagic to occupy his 9th level spell slots he gets at ECL 14.

----

If we are judging a dual progression prestige class Level 14 build of an Ur Priest gets 9th level Cleric Spell Slots but no domains, and he is roughly 3 levels behind with Wizard so 6th level Wizard Spells.

Compare that to an Atlas Human (LA+1 race, but you can buy back that +1 race for 3,000 XP) Atlas Human gives 3 Psionic Powers due to race (1 1st level, 1 2nd level, 1 3rd Level, plus some bonus power points). We are using this race to do early entry into Cerbremancer.

Wizard 4/ Telepath Psion 1/ Cerbremancer 9 has 13 levels of Wizard (7th level spells) and 10 levels of Telepath. He thus can do Schism and Synchronicity Shenanigans and Linked Power + Synchronicity Shenigans for extra actions in combat. At level 15 you get 11 levels into Telepath open up Temporal Acceleration the psionic version of Time Stop (Effectively a great 9th level slot in a 6th level package.) Effectively you are using 3,000 XP and 1 level behind in Wizard Spells (and the opportunity cost of giving up another wizard PRC) to have awesome amount of extra actions in combat starting level 11 (when Schism comes on line.) There are lots of great psionic powers as well for example Time Hop and Glyph Of Warding Psionic (no material component, you can set up wards of any 3rd level spell that last forever until activated.)

[OgresAreCute]

I figured, but you couldn't do that because you wouldn't have the required skills?

Indeed, skill ranks are hard-capped by your HD and I don't know of any way to break that cap.

[noob]

Indeed, skill ranks are hard-capped by your HD and I don't know of any way to break that cap.

There is a feat that allows to go one point above that cap for one skill(but only for one level)
So unless you use dark chaos shuffle you can not acquire twice that feat at level four to get one level earlier in ur priest.
However you could become a were flesh raker at level 2 then train the appropriate skills then get cured then take levels in ur priest.

[ViperMagnum357]

Indeed, skill ranks are hard-capped by your HD and I don't know of any way to break that cap.

No, it is possible, though very difficult. The Primary Contact feat from Cityscape provides 1 skill point rank that can exceed your maximum. There is the Laborious Training feat from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, which increases you skill rank cap to Character level +5 for all Intelligence based skills. There is also Illithid Savant, but that requires building around it entirely. The Codex Anathema from LOM and Yenejg Togan's Planar Syllabus from Dungeon 88 provide permanent skill ranks in certain Knowledge skills.

[ColorBlindNinja]

There is the Laborious Training feat from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, which increases you skill rank cap to Character level +5 for all Intelligence based skills.

Ravenloft: Legacy of Blood... Is that book first party?

[Kish]

It's a d20 book rather than a D&D book, published by White Wolf's Arthaus imprint when they owned the rights to Ravenloft.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's a d20 book rather than a D&D book, published by White Wolf's Arthaus imprint when they owned the rights to Ravenloft.

I see, thank you for answering my question.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The basic double-9s build is Savage Bard 5/ Ur-priest 2/ Mystic theurge 3/ Sublime Chord 1/ Mystic Theurge +5/ Sublime Chord +4 for casting as bard/sublime chord 18 and ur-priest 19 (arguably) for CL with 9ths coming in at ECL 15 for ur-priest and ECL 19 for SC. This is the cleanest way to pull double 9s.

MT and arcane hierophant can be used to accomplish it with much greater variety but you're locked into either druid, elf, or spirit folk to get the necessary trackless step (the last of which is questionable since it's a racial feature instead of a class feature) and it requires early entry shenanigans.

[Quertus]

Indeed, skill ranks are hard-capped by your HD and I don't know of any way to break that cap.

I know or have heard tell of numerous ways around this. Having more HD than levels (Incarnate Construct being my personal favorite), feats, and supposedly lycanthropy is somehow beneficial? Or, if, for the campaign, you've got to have monster HD anyway, it makes Ur-Priest potentially much more appealing than a more traditional caster.

Still, I don't consider it inherently campaign breaking. I could break campaigns with it (and a few other tricks) - but why would I?


There is also Illithid Savant, but that requires building around it

I love Illithid Savant. I really do. But how does my beloved Illithid Savant possibly make anything fast?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I love Illithid Savant. I really do. But how does my beloved Illithid Savant possibly make anything fast?

Eat an Ur-Priest brain and skip taking levels in it?

[Quertus]

Eat an Ur-Priest brain and skip taking levels in it?

I mean, sure, at level 5455858563757657, that works fine, but that kinda defeats the whole "early access" draw...

EDIT: in other words, I'm missing a) how this gets you access to anything early, and b) why an Illithid Savant would choose to eat an Ur-Priest instead of, say, some other tasty tier 1 brain.

[Celestia]

I know or have heard tell of numerous ways around this. Having more HD than levels (Incarnate Construct being my personal favorite), feats, and supposedly lycanthropy is somehow beneficial? Or, if, for the campaign, you've got to have monster HD anyway, it makes Ur-Priest potentially much more appealing than a more traditional caster.

Still, I don't consider it inherently campaign breaking. I could break campaigns with it (and a few other tricks) - but why would I?



I love Illithid Savant. I really do. But how does my beloved Illithid Savant possibly make anything fast?
Step 1: Get infected with lycanthropy.
Step 2: Use your new HDs and skill ranks to qualify for the prestige class you want.
Step 3: Take a level in that class.
Step 4: Cure your lycanthropy to eliminate your RHD and LA, leaving you with as a level 2 character with a prestige class.

[Bphill561]

I never saw the Ur-Priest to be that much of a problem on it's own. Early access to 9th level spells was only really a problem in games that were going to level 20. If you could not handle one 9th level spell a day at 15th, you probably were in for trouble when your players got to 17-18th. Also as stated above, dual caster builds are possible but can be achieved with other classes that have less alignment restrictions.

I am actually playing an Ur-Priest now in a forgotten realms game that is pretending to be a cleric of Lolth. I am drow and it takes place during Lolth's silence when her clerics have lost all their spell casting, so clearly I am the chosen one. We are level 20 and I am not outstripping the other casters who have more spells, but I did not dual caster (just Spell dancer madness).

[Fizban]

Those citing it as one 9th level spell per day should remember that char-op never lets a bonus spell slip by. If you can reach the +9 ability mod threshold by ECL 14, you have your one 9th level spell at 14th, or if you hit it any time after that you'll have two.

If your Ur-Priests are Ur-Priests, they're probably fine. If your Ur-Priests are *some ridiculous combo build,* you know what to look at to answer the question.

[Cosi]

I don't see any real benefit to adding Ur Priests. It's not like the Chameleon, which is potentially interesting because it encourages people to use a novel set of spells due to it's facility for dumpster diving. It's not like the Sublime Chord, which provides a viable extension to a class that tends to fall behind at high levels. It's just an accelerated progression casting class. It doesn't do anything new or different -- it casts Cleric spells, and the Spellthief does it's SLA stealing. It's either broken (with Theurges), or uninteresting (without them). It's better to just like people take Cleric levels and get their divine spells by robbing the gods if that's what they want to do. That captures the concept of the Ur Priest without the mechanical baggage.

[Quertus]

I don't see any real benefit to adding Ur Priests. It's better to just like people take Cleric levels and get their divine spells by robbing the gods if that's what they want to do. That captures the concept of the Ur Priest without the mechanical baggage.

See, back in 2e, some liked the idea of "pirate" or "gladiator" having some mechanical differentiation from Fighter, "ninja" or "spy" having some mechanical differentiation from Thief. That official stamp of approval that refluffing actually means something matters to some people. 2e kits, weak as they were, have that sense that flavor actually touched mechanics.

That, more than anything, is the benefit of the Ur-Priest class - it legitimizes hating the gods enough to steal power from them into a Cleric-like chassis.

Yes, I would have preferred it as a 20- level base class, on par with Cleric, but Ur-Priest is better than nothing.

[lbuttitta]

I second the advice appearing in this thread. It's definitely Tier 1, but if your table is reasonably optimized, it's not game-breaking. Admittedly, almost any form of spell-like ability theft or creation is dangerous, in terms of game balance, for players to have (since monsters were designed with respect to challenging the party and not to providing PC abilities), but it's better than other, similar effects, like Dweomerkeeper, or Archmage.

[Ramza00]

I don't see any real benefit to adding Ur Priests. It's not like the Chameleon, which is potentially interesting because it encourages people to use a novel set of spells due to it's facility for dumpster diving. It's not like the Sublime Chord, which provides a viable extension to a class that tends to fall behind at high levels. It's just an accelerated progression casting class. It doesn't do anything new or different -- it casts Cleric spells, and the Spellthief does it's SLA stealing. It's either broken (with Theurges), or uninteresting (without them). It's better to just like people take Cleric levels and get their divine spells by robbing the gods if that's what they want to do. That captures the concept of the Ur Priest without the mechanical baggage.

I 100% agree. But what is done is done.

A 20 level kit version of Cleric that is an Ur Priest would be someone who does not get domain spells but get cleric casting and then has some form of spell-thief / master spell-thief mechanic.

[Nifft]

I feel like Ur-Priest is an NPC-targeted class for monsters which you want to be emphatically in the EEEEEEEEVULZ zone.

As a tool for PCs it might have a place in an evil campaign, where you start off with several racial HD and some LA because you're so evil that you need a mechanical disadvantage... er, because you're so much more powerful than a mere human.

[Erit]

I feel like Ur-Priest is an NPC-targeted class for monsters which you want to be emphatically in the EEEEEEEEVULZ zone.

As a tool for PCs it might have a place in an evil campaign, where you start off with several racial HD and some LA because you're so evil that you need a mechanical disadvantage... er, because you're so much more powerful than a mere human.

Going off of how the Book of Vile Darkness is structured, nothing in it was actually conceived for the direct benefit of PCs. In fact I can think of very little Evil-exclusive material that is in 3.X, and most of that seemed to be on sufferance, like WoTC just caved and said "Fiiiiiiine. Play your stinkin' bad guys already."

But that's never stopped anything printed from entering PC hands anyway.

[Cosi]

I 100% agree. But what is done is done.

A 20 level kit version of Cleric that is an Ur Priest would be someone who does not get domain spells but get cleric casting and then has some form of spell-thief / master spell-thief mechanic.

I mean, couldn't you just say "Cleric, except you trade Turning and Domains for Sneak Attack and Steal Spell"? That preserves the flavor, but doesn't have the balance problems with Theurges or early entry.

[Celestia]

Going off of how the Book of Vile Darkness is structured, nothing in it was actually conceived for the direct benefit of PCs. In fact I can think of very little Evil-exclusive material that is in 3.X, and most of that seemed to be on sufferance, like WoTC just caved and said "Fiiiiiiine. Play your stinkin' bad guys already."

But that's never stopped anything printed from entering PC hands anyway.
I feel like the evil paladins in UA are possibly designed for players. I can't think of anything else, though.

[Nifft]

Going off of how the Book of Vile Darkness is structured, nothing in it was actually conceived for the direct benefit of PCs. In fact I can think of very little Evil-exclusive material that is in 3.X, and most of that seemed to be on sufferance, like WoTC just caved and said "Fiiiiiiine. Play your stinkin' bad guys already."

But that's never stopped anything printed from entering PC hands anyway.

Warlocks must be Evil or Chaotic, and they're firmly player-oriented.

The best Dragonfire Adept breath effect practically requires that you play Evil, and DFA is player-oriented.

Incarnate (from Magic of Incarnum) presents Evil as one of the four player-oriented alignment options.

Back in 3.0e, Rangers got special treatment when Evil (they were allowed to pick their own type as a Favored Enemy).

There are PrCs like Ordained Champion which require either LG or LE; there are plenty of classes & PrCs which require "non-good".

[Ramza00]

I mean, couldn't you just say "Cleric, except you trade Turning and Domains for Sneak Attack and Steal Spell"? That preserves the flavor, but doesn't have the balance problems with Theurges or early entry.

(throwing spaghetti at the build idea)

Rogue 1/ Spellthief 1/ Cleric 18 with Sacred Outlaw feat and a houseruled divine version of Master Spellthief. What is that? 19 levels of Rogue Sneak Attack (10d6) + 1 level of Spellthief Sneak Attack for 11d6 total and 10d6 if you were stealing spells. Sidenote I wished someone saved the Ordained Champion of Keli build that Logicninja Made (I am becoming death) unfortunately it did not survive the purge of the wizard of the coast forum but it was a great twf build without using sneak attack and had 9th level cleric spells. TWF blender or something was another part of its name.

Dragon 311 had the aspirant as a cleric kit which was not about serving the gods but about becomming like the gods. It did not get domains but once a day (later 5 times a day, every 4 levels) yo ucould swap a cleric spell of a spell of the same level or lower spontaneously. Furthermore you get an ac bonus that scales per levels and a weak counter spell ability. This will reflavor nicely into an Ur Priest type character.

[Telonius]

Going off of how the Book of Vile Darkness is structured, nothing in it was actually conceived for the direct benefit of PCs. In fact I can think of very little Evil-exclusive material that is in 3.X, and most of that seemed to be on sufferance, like WoTC just caved and said "Fiiiiiiine. Play your stinkin' bad guys already."

But that's never stopped anything printed from entering PC hands anyway.

That's pretty accurate. There were some good (corporate) reasons for it. I get the sense that it's kind of fading from gaming memory now, but the whole "D&D murders" and BADD lawsuit controversies in the late 80s had been a gigantic headache for both TSR and WotC, and they didn't want a repeat performance. Playing Evil characters is mainstream enough now that it seems ridiculous to be worried about it, but it wasn't always that way.