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Yora
2018-08-25, 03:50 PM
The main meat of Dark Souls and Bloodborn is their very particular action-game combat. But while I think that part is fun, the true popularity and praise of the series probably comes from its combination with the level design, exploration elements, and setting. For the most part they are Metroidvania megadungeons and those elements should be very well suited to being carried over into exploration campaigns.

The question is how? One really odd thing the games are doing is to give players small scraps of information about the world in the description of items. Which just doesn't simulate anything within the imaginary world happening. It's just knowledge that pops into the mind of the character. Or maybe the character knew all along but the player didn't? In either case, while I think what is primarily a combat game can get away with this, this approach can't be carried over into a campaign. And leaving lots of notes lying around all over the place isn't going to feel very believable either.
Instead, I think a dungeon (for lack of a better term) needs to communicates its information entirely through non-written means. Either material evidence found scattered in the environment or something that NPCs can tell the players. Perhaps scattering material evidence could be approached like placing clues for solving a mystery, but without any narrative need to find the correct answer. The players ending up without a clear answer or believing in a wrong answer shouldn't interfere with them successfully pursuing their goal.

Haldir
2018-08-26, 12:28 AM
I think it's easier to work from the back to the front- figure out what you want to say and then design the dungeon to say it. Working the other way- thinking about how a dungeon can say something- is going to be a lot harder.

Florian
2018-08-26, 11:51 AM
PC/console games canīt be directly translated to TTRPG games.

1) "Metroidvania"-styles levels: This is actually done to reuse maps (more than once), to a) cut down on the coding and graphics necessary and b) give the player a feeling of accomplishment when he now has a new ability and can reach the hidden goodies.

2) If you're not one of those lazy and boring "not from around here" types, to play a character that is actually part of the setting, you must know at least the basics of the setting before play. For stuff like WoW, Dark Souls, Fallout, etc., this is not necessary to play the actual game, itīs just an additional layer to be engaged with.

Pleh
2018-08-27, 05:14 AM
PC/console games canīt be directly translated to TTRPG games.

That depends on what you mean by, "directly."

A lot of video game elements translate to TTRPG just fine, but the common pitfall is to overlook what exactly makes the elements of each type of game work. A good rule of thumb is to say TTRPGs aren't good at real time skill challenges or conveying game information visually the way Video games do.

Heck, a lot of video games (especially RPGs) borrow TTRPG tricks to supplement what video games don't do well (e.g. communicating smell or taste information to the player).


1) "Metroidvania"-styles levels: This is actually done to reuse maps (more than once), to a) cut down on the coding and graphics necessary and b) give the player a feeling of accomplishment when he now has a new ability and can reach the hidden goodies.

This can be done in TTRPGs for much the same reason. Mapping is a lot of work and the ability to revisit areas not only means getting the most out of your maps, but it can also communicate to players how much they've grown since they left, or even what kind of impact their last visit had upon the area.


2) If you're not one of those lazy and boring "not from around here" types, to play a character that is actually part of the setting, you must know at least the basics of the setting before play. For stuff like WoW, Dark Souls, Fallout, etc., this is not necessary to play the actual game, itīs just an additional layer to be engaged with.

This feels more like personal bias than fact.

First off, WoW, Dark Souls (lords of fire/cinder legends), and Fallout (war never changes) all start the game by giving players the basics of the setting (usually through cinematic opening cutscenes), so I don't feel it's fair to say one game benefits from setting exposition and another doesn't. Next, "lazy and boring" is clearly formed from your experiences, but doesn't necessarily apply to other cases.

Now, it is true that playing a game about culture and society requires information to choose which factions you'll start from as part of character creation, but dark souls and metroidvania are primarily games about exploring ruins and dungeons. The point is that civilized people don't live in this area (it's all monsters and crazy people with occasional shop keepers, quest givers, etc), so there's not much use for social setting information because it's irrelevant to the dungeon.

You play "someone not from around here" because no one is actually "from around here." Metroidvania dungeons are classic D&D dungeons occupied almost exclusively with monsters in minimal society with one another. Plus, being a game about exploration, discovering details about the dungeon along the way is half the fun.

The presumption that you're supposed to understand the setting to make your character and all else is lazy and boring is overreaching and unjustified. It only matters in games like L5R where the social aspect of the game is strong.

Anonymouswizard
2018-08-27, 06:47 AM
Yeah, the first bit of Dark Souls is that it's a megadungeon, just with added shops and 'inns' (bonfires). Althouth each game show have a hub it's downplayed in the original DS, and different games seperate the different 'areas' more or less (with Demons' Souls doing so the most).

The key things that make Dark Souls are the variety of the locations (Undead Burg is different to Blighttown witch is different to Anor London), the way they seem to logically transition from one to another, and the way the lore is revealed piecemeal (after the opening's basic information). There's a sense of the being a lot more to the world than what your character is doing, but figuring out what isn't easy. Since bits of lore are only indirectly revealed, such as humanity being descended from the Furtive Pygmy.

The ideal way to replicate item descriptions would be with the layers finding documents they can choose to read, but they'd have to be on a material that wouldn't have decayed.

Douche
2018-08-27, 06:23 PM
Are you talking about level design or lore?

Cuz the reason Dark Souls lore works is because the story is minimalist, and it's a one way communication. In a TTRPG if you decided to give one sentence lore snippets then it wouldn't be a very satisfying interaction. In fact, I feel like it'd be almost punishing the player for showing interest in your world. They'd be all "Woah, who are the Drakeblood Knights? They sound cool" and you'd be all "ALL YOU KNOW IS WHAT I WROTE IN THAT ONE SENTENCE SNIPPET, PUNK! READ BETWEEN THE LINES!". Point being, the way Dark Souls delivers it's lore isn't conducive to a two-way communication. TTRPGs imo are meant to engage the player(s) on their terms. If your player wants to learn more about a certain aspect of the lore, then you should try to give them something more for showing interest... because as we all know, most players don't even care about the lore and just want to be murderhobos.

As far as the way that the world itself tells a story - yeah, Dark Souls players spend way too long analyzing statues and whatnot. But I don't think that's just a Dark Souls thing. Giving exposition through the environment is just a part of good game design. I remember this one part in Fallout 4 - if you read the emails on the computers, this guy says something along the lines of "If Cheryl comes here one more time and asks me to buy her daughters girl scout cookies, I'm going to drive a pen through her ****ing skull". Later on, you find a skeleton stuffed in a closet, with a pen inside her eye socket.

I found that funny, it's a small story but it is shown through the environment. It's funny and rewarding if you're actually paying attention.

Regardless, there are plenty of tools you can use that aren't just notes. Paintings, statues - just decoration in general. If you're exploring a home and find a bunch of stuffed wolves and a bearskin rug, then you can assume that the person living there is a hunter. Then when you go through his cabinets and find a nicely crafted crossbow, you know why he has it.

Perch
2018-08-27, 08:59 PM
Add interesting stuff to the setting.

Don't explain stuff, let the players come up with their conclusions.

I remmber playing the tower of the stargazer, and in a dungeon cell there was a skeleton with fifteen arms locked away in chains.

We all came up with wild theories of what it was and why it was there, some said it was a wizard's experiemt gone wrong, other said it was the remains of a extra dimensional creature or maybe even a dead god.

The DM never said anything.

My curiosity was such that after the adventure was over I bougth the book just to check what it said... And there was nothing it was just a set peice to make the pcs interested.

So yeah add stuff but don't explain.