Creating one nation under force! (Artificer/Construct Army)

[Armyguyclaude]

Hi,

ArmyGuyClaude here. I've made a couple posts in the past trying to learn more about the game since I am new, but I have a new problem I would love help as. I am currently in a campaign where I play a level 5 Artificer. I've worked it out with the DM already that I will eventually try and take over the world without becoming evil. My idea is to create a neutral alignment force that will protect everyone that will sign my peace treaty. The world this campaign is in is struggling with different wars, evil menaces, and dark shadow wars that normal folks are unaware of. My idea is to go to all races/nations and use diplomacy to get them to sign a peace treaty. This peace treaty basically states you cannot attack anyone else on this peace treaty. Should you ever become assaulted by a force this neutral army will protect you. If you are on the peace treaty and disobey the first rule you are no longer on the peace treaty. Overall trying to create world peace through force. This army will mainly be made up of constructs and small party's of all nations/races that have signed the peace treaty. Since it will be mainly constructs I'm going to be creating the vast majority of them. Hopefully only at first.

I've read a bunch of other threads and ideas from different forums and have run the majority of the ideas past my DM, but thus far most of the ideas I've brought to him would be considering breaking the game. While he isn't apposed to any game breaking ideas he is of the mind he will make it as difficult as possible if I go that route. So far I'm starting small things like creating magic merchants within major cities. Our party has gained the camaraderie of a neutral fortress in a key position of the world map, giving us a home to call base of operations. I'm slowly trying to send people/troops/merchants to build up this home fortress of ours, but like all things it is slow going. Good thing I am patient.

Trouble I currently am running into is;
1) If I am going to be creating the vast majority of these constructs I realize I will need a large income. Extremely large income. Looking at Effigy's, Golems, Generic Constructs, Magical Animation of Inanimate Objects, and Clockwerk creations they are all extremely expensive. If I am going to need all this money, what other ways can I look to increase my income besides creating Magic Merchant shops in major cities, hopefully gaining a persistent income from this fortress our party is building, and general adventuring.

2) What would be the best Constructs/Golems/Effigies/Clockwerk creations to make an all powerful force not really having any general weaknesses and possibly having strengths against any nation/race we would have to face in the field of battle. I realize anything of this magnitude will only increase my expenses, but from what I've been seeing throughout other threads/forums there is no clear winner since each type have their own strengths and weaknesses. I am currently thinking of doing basic Effigies and eventually going into stronger Golems, but I don't know if this is the best in terms of raw strength and customization for putting other magically effects to give my army advantages no matter who they face. If creating a cheaper army would be better since numbers can count for something what would that be?

3) What would be some feats I should be looking at attaining since if I only go 20 levels into Human/Artificer (And this will be a long term campaign. The DM has already made this clear not only with basic conversation, but reviving the entire party after we party wiped) will be 8 generic feats (Human, levels) 5 Bonus feats from Artificer itself, and pretty much every crafting feat in the game (excluding some more focused feats) just through the Artificer class. I've looked at pretty much every Meta Magic Feat in the game and wow are there a lot, but since I am new to the game, I don't know what Meta Magic Feats or other Feats would be more efficient in an idea such as this.

Overall I know this is a lot to ask of people and I am sure many of you might think either, "Do it yourself", or, "Refer to X/Y Forum/Thread again", but I was hoping with a more focused idea we as a group might be able to come up with a more focused plan. Thank you all for any help you may give or questions you might pose as anything is more than I currently have.

Sincerely,
ArmyGuyClaude

EDIT:
I just saw the The Legitimately Playable Construct Master thread by someonenoone11 as many of the Threads I've read up to this point were older posts.

What I've landed on: (Unless better ideas come along)
XP: Using Planar Bind on a Succubus to make use of xp loss along side of Thought Jar so XP costs won't be as much of a threat in the long run. Or, Possibly using Scrolls of Permanency of 4,500 xp and using Retain Essence from Artificer's to have an endless supply of XP to use. (As I am new will need to spend time trying to figure out how this is even possibly and what a scroll of x of x xp even means. As per The Legitimately Playable Construct Master thread by someonenoone11)
Crafting Ingredients: DM has made it known in the campaign we are in there already is an area with all the resources I will need. He just need to be higher level to finish that quest line and have to find it.
Invevitables: The DM and I are working on a way to allow me to travel to the Mech Plane and find a way to learn how to either gain the ability to construct Inevitables or allow me to employ them. Mainly using them a mobile police force. (Think Beat cops).
Idea from Noob Grisgol's: Possible idea of convincing people to become Liches aligned to my cause so I can have an endless supply of Phylacteries to create a Grisgol army, or possibly an assassin force?

[noob]

Simply make a construct of infinite cr but very limited strength(for example an effigy of a theoretical level infinity fighter: the effigy will have only one hit dice and nearly nothing else but be of infinite cr).
Then make constructs with a level adjustement and make them fight that construct of infinite cr.
Those constructs wins the fight and wins an infinity of levels.
Whatever they were before no longer actually matters.
Oh and you got yourself to infinite level the same way probably.
And if you are not in abusing class level and crs just make a grisgol army. (basically the only construct that can possibly participate when the other countries starts using adventurers)
For that you will need to encourage people to become a lich for the good of the kingdom.

[Armyguyclaude]

Simply make a construct of infinite cr but very limited strength(for example an effigy of a theoretical level infinity fighter: the effigy will have only one hit dice and nearly nothing else but be of infinite cr).
Then make constructs with a level adjustement and make them fight that construct of infinite cr.
Those constructs wins the fight and wins an infinity of levels.
Whatever they were before no longer actually matters.
Oh and you got yourself to infinite level the same way probably.
And if you are not in abusing class level and crs just make a grisgol army. (basically the only construct that can possibly participate when the other countries starts using adventurers)
For that you will need to encourage people to become a lich for the good of the kingdom.

I'm unfamiliar on how to create an infinite cr effigy. Would you mind explaining the process of something like this?

Grisgol army... Google here I come xD.

EDIT:
Also I'm confused on what you mean by creating a construct with a level adjustment. Does that mean a construct that can gain xp? How do you do that besides making the construct intelligent?

Wow! Grisgol's seem stronk! Thanks for the tips. Also seem really difficult to make if there aren't many liches around :p

[noob]

Invevitables: The DM and I are working on a way to allow me to travel to the Mech Plane and find a way to learn how to either gain the ability to construct Inevitables or allow me to employ them.

I still think searching how to make grisgols is a good idea since they have any spell you want as a sla(one per level of spell they can use once per day).
I do not know any inevitable that is cool enough for being a serious threat to shape-change abusing wizards that are immune to damage then cast gate to gate in an outsider that can gate in another outsider and so on.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040905a&page=4
for grisgols stats.

Effigy is a template that can be applied to any creature including fictive ones such as a level infinity fighter.
But since an effigy does not gets the hd based on class but still have the cr of the base creature + 1 or 2(I forgot which) then the effigy only have one hit dice.
An effigy have a crafting cost based only on its actual hd and size.

[Armyguyclaude]

I still think searching how to make grisgols is a good idea since they have any spell you want as a sla(one per level of spell they can use once per day).
I do not know any inevitable that is cool enough for being a serious threat to shape-change abusing wizards that are immune to damage then cast gate to gate in an outsider that can gate in another outsider and so on.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040905a&page=4
for grisgols stats.

Well as far as I know the biggest difference between the two is the Phylactery. If there aren't an overabundance of Liches in the world our campaign is in might be difficult to create an army composed of them.

My main goal in using Inevitables isn't for use in the neutral army force, but really to keep minor things at bay like oath breaking, and liches xD.

Also it Inevitables are Intelligent free thinking constructs, while it seems Grisgol's are normal unintelligent constructs that are only able to act if commanded.

[noob]

Well as far as I know the biggest difference between the two is the Phylactery. If there aren't an overabundance of Liches in the world our campaign is in might be difficult to create an army composed of them.

My main goal in using Inevitables isn't for use in the neutral army force, but really to keep minor things at bay like oath breaking, and liches xD.

Also it Inevitables are Intelligent free thinking constructs, while it seems Grisgol's are normal unintelligent constructs that are only able to act if commanded.

Which is why I mentioned encouraging people to becomes liches for helping their country.
Furthermore if you use patriotic liches ready to do everything for you(including being trapped in a grisgol) as grisgol components once the grisgol die you do have way less problems with the freed liches.

[Armyguyclaude]

Which is why I mentioned encouraging people to becomes liches for helping their country.

Lol! Missed that. As awesome as that would be I doubt my party would allow or accept that idea. I've been fighting the entire group just to try creating a flesh golem to "Practice" my creative skills for future construct ideas. I've been dumping points into diplomacy since that conversation began xD.

Maybe I could do something like behind the scenes in later levels as I am thinking off possibly turning my campaign into a more neutral aligned group as I'm the only one in the group not "Good".

[noob]

If you learn to create inevitable how much control will you have over them?
Will they enforce the laws of mechanus or will they obey you and your laws?

[Armyguyclaude]

If you learn to create inevitable how much control will you have over them?
Will they enforce the laws of mechanus or will they obey you and your laws?

Honestly my Goals align with the Goals of each specific Inevitable's own Goals. So regardless of who they obey as a master, I am thinking of implementing them and introducing them into my prime world campaign for the Inevitables own self goals.

I.E.
Finding and distributing Justice to Oath Breakers. (Kolyaruts)

I.E.
Searching out and eliminating creatures trying to prolong their life. (Lich Killers) (Maruts)

I.E.
Seeking out creatures that would deny justice. (Zelekhuts)

The Oath Breakers are mainly to help enforce the Peace Treaty I am creating and Lich Killers mainly for the use to keep down power sources that may try to rise up and siege power for themselves, and Justice seekers for just that, maintaining peace on a small scale.

[noob]

The Runic Guardian and Juggernaut are quite good constructs.(the former for a 75% shield other and the latter for at will forcecage)
Do not forget if your gm allows Sacred Guardian then use it as much as possible(template that makes a construct intelligent).
Spell Clock are very abusable constructs.
Umbral Spy is a construct that can get mindsight and once you have a construct with mindsight and which is good at hiding it can help a lot at stealth operations.

[iTreeby]

The tippy verse uses shadesteel golem for some reason as it's endgame policeforce, there may be a reason for that. The tippy verse assumes a lot of things though. Reseting spell traps are one. I'm not familiar enough to give more specifics.

[noob]

The tippy verse uses shadesteel golem for some reason as it's endgame policeforce, there may be a reason for that. The tippy verse assumes a lot of things though. Reseting spell traps are one. I'm not familiar enough to give more specifics.

One of the main reasons is that they are medium sized and one of the main concerns is undead that contaminate people and so something medium sized that can go everywhere a wight can go is helpful.

[Armyguyclaude]

Do not forget if your gm allows Sacred Guardian then use it as much as possible(template that makes a construct intelligent).


I can't find the Sacred Guardian Template anywhere in Google. I can find references to it, but not the template itself.

Also do you mind answering the confusion I had a previous post you had,
"Also I'm confused on what you mean by creating a construct with a level adjustment. Does that mean a construct that can gain xp? How do you do that besides making the construct intelligent?"

[unseenmage]

I can't find the Sacred Guardian Template anywhere in Google. I can find references to it, but not the template itself.

Also do you mind answering the confusion I had a previous post you had,
"Also I'm confused on what you mean by creating a construct with a level adjustment. Does that mean a construct that can gain xp? How do you do that besides making the construct intelligent?"

Sacred Guardian is in Bestiary of Krynn Revised.

Resetting Magic Traps of Minor Servitor from Savage Species, Awaken Sand from Sandstorm, and Create Crawling Claw from Monstrous Compendium: Monsters of Faerun will just keep making Constructs for you.

Mineralize Warrior from Underdark - or - Greater Humanoid Essence from Races of Faerun plus Monstrous Thrall or Dominate will allow you to control the normally free willed Mimor Servitors and Awakened Sands.

I recommend Obdurium from Stronghold Builders Guide for the Minor Servitors, Shapesand for the Awakened Sands, and the Crawling Claws can be severed hands from statues if actual severed hands are too grisly.

Magic resetting traps of True Creation can make the materials too.

Still expensive, still time consuming, but ultimately a very efficient method for world domination.

[Goaty14]

The tippy verse uses shadesteel golem for some reason as it's endgame policeforce, there may be a reason for that. The tippy verse assumes a lot of things though. Reseting spell traps are one. I'm not familiar enough to give more specifics.

Tippyverse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy) (only read the first post because the thread devolves into "weeell, you're cities aren't immune to attack if I use THIS method": Basically assumes
1) There is no sensible DM around to ban/nerf OP stuff
2) Everything is assumed to be Rules-As-Written (RAW). This technically means that Pun-Pun can (and probably will) exist.
3) Epic Magic doesn't exist (though this also implies epic characters can exist)
4) The deities are really famous, but don't make public appearances... at all. (For the same reason epic magic doesn't exist, reforming reality can be a real game changer)
5) Teleportation Circles are invented, which massively changes the world.
5a) Like, enemy nations teleport their entire army in front of the palace of the opposing king, because they can. Now the world consists of city-states that have their entire army in the same city. (and the aforementioned golems going around with high-level wizards acting as police)
5b) Actually carting around goods is irrelevant (for obvious reasons), instead you have a mob of people continuously running through the teleportation circles. Now any village/hamlet (and the wilds in general) that isn't an aforementioned city-state is run over by high-CR monsters.
6) Anything that is WotC 1st-party, goes, even obscure web articles.
7) Because of #6 and #1, things like self-resetting spell traps (spell clocks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a), spell turrets (DMG II)) of important stuff (create food & water, Wish (to create nonmagical stuff to inflate the market), etc) become a thing, further increasing the reliance on high-level magic.
8) Currency (as described in the thread)... actually isn't too inflated. Instead of using CP/SP/GP/PP, Tippyverse uses the Drake(=CP), Scepter(=SP) and Soverign(=GP), which are actually little magic items that can be created via wish traps, crafting, or slaying monsters.
Shadowsteel Golems (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?320604-What-is-so-great-about-the-shadesteel-golem) (The Relevant Post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16637717&postcount=11))

[RoboEmperor]

If you're using Thought Bottles then any level of cheese is allowed. SO...

1. Get a dose of Liquid Pain (substitutes 2xp for crafting)
2. Cast fabricate on it to triple your amount. You need to be able to hit a Craft Alchemy DC of 25.
3. Repeat 2 twenty times and you will have 3,486,784,401xp.
4. Use those Liquid Pain doses to create scrolls of wish.
5. Constructs are magic items, so to create one with wish is 5,000xp + Xp cost to create that construct x 2. So a Shadesteel golem will cost 5000 +4800 x2 = 14600xp with wish. So create a scroll of wish with 14,600xp and cast it to make a Shadesteel Golem instantly with no craft time or gp cost other than the cost of the scroll.

As for best construct, Shadesteel Golem has everything covered. Flight, Healing, etc. but it's not amazing in damage.
Hellfire Engine has a 20d10 breath attack that is unresistable. No amount of energy resistance or immunity will stop its damage. Awaken it to give it feats that reduce breath weapon cooldown.
Take a look at the mechonomicon, look up every monster and their stats/abilities, and pick the one you want.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18109.0

If you're dead set on the level drain loop, you got it wrong. You don't use thought bottles.
1. Summon a Wight via summon undead V.
2. Have it hit you, wait 24 hours, and intentionally fail the saving throw.
3. Use your xp to craft stuff, and craft a scroll of restoration.
4. Use the scroll to restore your level.
5. repeat 1-4 infinitely.

As an artificer you can just craft scrolls of permanency to store xp, and then add all that xp to your craft reserve.

[unseenmage]

A word of warning, Awakening the Construct gives it free will.
The Sacred Guardian template or Rudimentary Intelligence from Dragon 327 grants it intelligence without free will.

[noob]

I can't find the Sacred Guardian Template anywhere in Google. I can find references to it, but not the template itself.

Also do you mind answering the confusion I had a previous post you had,
"Also I'm confused on what you mean by creating a construct with a level adjustment. Does that mean a construct that can gain xp? How do you do that besides making the construct intelligent?"

Check the level adjustment line.
If there is a number and not a _ then it means that the rate at which the construct gains xp is defined otherwise the equivalent character level of the construct is not defined.
Also sorry but I made a mistake with the effigy trick you only gain one level at each time(there is a cap to how many levels someone can gain from an encounter) but it still is a really fast way to train.

[thethird]

A word of warning, Awakening the Construct gives it free will.
The Sacred Guardian template or Rudimentary Intelligence from Dragon 327 grants it intelligence without free will.

The sacred guardian (3rd party) and rudimentary intelligence (dragon magazine) might be not allowed sources. Consider using Nybor's psychic imprint (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041215a).

[Armyguyclaude]

The sacred guardian (3rd party) and rudimentary intelligence (dragon magazine) might be not allowed sources. Consider using Nybor's psychic imprint (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041215a).

Does anyone have links to these things? I can't find anything that will show me definitive stats or anything on, "The Sacred Guardian" template.


Check the level adjustment line.
If there is a number and not a _ then it means that the rate at which the construct gains xp is defined otherwise the equivalent character level of the construct is not defined.
Also sorry but I made a mistake with the effigy trick you only gain one level at each time(there is a cap to how many levels someone can gain from an encounter) but it still is a really fast way to train.

Thank you. I take it as long as it has a CR it "CAN" gain xp regardless of the creature or race type?


If you're using Thought Bottles then any level of cheese is allowed. SO...

1. Get a dose of Liquid Pain (substitutes 2xp for crafting)
2. Cast fabricate on it to triple your amount. You need to be able to hit a Craft Alchemy DC of 25.
3. Repeat 2 twenty times and you will have 3,486,784,401xp.
4. Use those Liquid Pain doses to create scrolls of wish.
5. Constructs are magic items, so to create one with wish is 5,000xp + Xp cost to create that construct x 2. So a Shadesteel golem will cost 5000 +4800 x2 = 14600xp with wish. So create a scroll of wish with 14,600xp and cast it to make a Shadesteel Golem instantly with no craft time or gp cost other than the cost of the scroll.

As for best construct, Shadesteel Golem has everything covered. Flight, Healing, etc. but it's not amazing in damage.
Hellfire Engine has a 20d10 breath attack that is unresistable. No amount of energy resistance or immunity will stop its damage. Awaken it to give it feats that reduce breath weapon cooldown.
Take a look at the mechonomicon, look up every monster and their stats/abilities, and pick the one you want.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18109.0

If you're dead set on the level drain loop, you got it wrong. You don't use thought bottles.
1. Summon a Wight via summon undead V.
2. Have it hit you, wait 24 hours, and intentionally fail the saving throw.
3. Use your xp to craft stuff, and craft a scroll of restoration.
4. Use the scroll to restore your level.
5. repeat 1-4 infinitely.

As an artificer you can just craft scrolls of permanency to store xp, and then add all that xp to your craft reserve.

Thank you. A lot of that was very in depth. Question I have regarding creating permanency scrolls for specific amounts of XP, is the scroll generically worth 4500 XP all the time or do you specifically have to create the Permanency scroll and at the time of creation state I want to create it holding x amount of xp. If it is option two how is that possible? Also regarding your thread, "The Legitimately Playable Construct Master" how does having Divine Crusader or Sublime Chord make it so you can create level 7 wish scrolls? I don't understand.

Thank you all for your help thus far. I appreciate it.

[RoboEmperor]

Thank you. A lot of that was very in depth. Question I have regarding creating permanency scrolls for specific amounts of XP, is the scroll generically worth 4500 XP all the time or do you specifically have to create the Permanency scroll and at the time of creation state I want to create it holding x amount of xp. If it is option two how is that possible? Also regarding your thread, "The Legitimately Playable Construct Master" how does having Divine Crusader or Sublime Chord make it so you can create level 7 wish scrolls? I don't understand.

Thank you all for your help thus far. I appreciate it.

If you look at permanency the spell, it has various xp costs for various effects. You can create a scroll of permanency with any of those listed xp. 4,500xp is just the most expensive one. To clarify, you are putting xp into the scroll when you create it. You should read the magic item creation rules. You pay all costs when you create the scroll, not when you cast it.

Divine Crusader gets a new spell level every level instead of every other level like a normal spellcaster. A wizard gets a new spell level at 1, 3, 5, 7, 9... but a Divine Crusader gets a new spell level at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...
So at first level, a Divine Crusader gets a 1st level spell and CL1.
At 2nd level, a Divine Crusader gets a 2nd level spell and CL2.
and so on. Until level 9, when it gets a 9th level spell and CL9.

A Divine Crusader's spell list is a domain, the Envy Domain has wish as a 9th level spell, therefore, a 9th level Divine Crusader will have wish at caster level 9.

An Artificer can create this caster level 9 scroll of wish by using Use Magic Device.

[Armyguyclaude]

If you look at permanency the spell, it has various xp costs for various effects. You can create a scroll of permanency with any of those listed xp. 4,500xp is just the most expensive one. To clarify, you are putting xp into the scroll when you create it. You should read the magic item creation rules. You pay all costs when you create the scroll, not when you cast it.

Divine Crusader gets a new spell level every level instead of every other level like a normal spellcaster. A wizard gets a new spell level at 1, 3, 5, 7, 9... but a Divine Crusader gets a new spell level at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...
So at first level, a Divine Crusader gets a 1st level spell and CL1.
At 2nd level, a Divine Crusader gets a 2nd level spell and CL2.
and so on. Until level 9, when it gets a 9th level spell and CL9.

A Divine Crusader's spell list is a domain, the Envy Domain has wish as a 9th level spell, therefore, a 9th level Divine Crusader will have wish at caster level 9.

An Artificer can create this caster level 9 scroll of wish by using Use Magic Device.

Thanks for the help. I've been lost on that one for awhile now :). But Artificer's gain access to prestige classes as well? Not just base classes? If the answer is yes, wouldn't it be assumed that it would have to be level appropriate I.E. (just making a random example don't know if these are the actual levels or not just an example) level 5 cleric+level 5 divine, not level 5 divine only?

[RoboEmperor]

Thanks for the help. I've been lost on that one for awhile now :). But Artificer's gain access to prestige classes as well? Not just base classes? If the answer is yes, wouldn't it be assumed that it would have to be level appropriate I.E. (just making a random example don't know if these are the actual levels or not just an example) level 5 cleric+level 5 divine, not level 5 divine only?

Divine Crusaders's spellcasting is 100% independent. As in a FIGHTER 7 can enter it. Likewise any spellcasting you had before entering Divine Crusader is completely irrelevant as Divine Crusader does NOT advance your base spellcasting class.

Look up the class before discussing further. It's in Complete Divine.

[noob]

Thank you. I take it as long as it has a CR it "CAN" gain xp regardless of the creature or race type?

No.
It is the level adjustment line that matters and it is not the same thing as the challenge rating.
for example look at the last line of the table for aboleth
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm
It is named level adjustment and it is at _ in this case since _ + anything always makes _ and that the rate at which someone of an equivalent character level(completely independent from the challenge rating: equivalent character level is the hit dice + the level adjustment) of _ is not defined then it means it does not gains xp at a defined rate.

Usually the level adjustment of a creature is written at the last line of the statblock right before the description of how the creature looks like.

[Armyguyclaude]

Divine Crusaders's spellcasting is 100% independent. As in a FIGHTER 7 can enter it. Likewise any spellcasting you had before entering Divine Crusader is completely irrelevant as Divine Crusader does NOT advance your base spellcasting class.

Look up the class before discussing further. It's in Complete Divine.

Yea I had looked up the Class previously, but as I stated originally I'm a new player to the DnD universe and am unaware of how base rules work. Why I'm trying to gain information :). Thank you for clarifying.


No.
It is the level adjustment line that matters and it is not the same thing as the challenge rating.
for example look at the last line of the table for aboleth
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm
It is named level adjustment and it is at _ in this case since _ + anything always makes _ and that the rate at which someone of an equivalent character level(completely independent from the challenge rating: equivalent character level is the hit dice + the level adjustement) of _ is not defined then it means it does not gains xp at a defined rate.

Wow you guys are quick to respond lol. Thank you for clearing that up for me. A lot of this is confusing for me since DnD 3.5 has been around for quite some time and there is a lot of content I'm trying to learn. Thank you all for taking the time to help. <3

[RoboEmperor]

Just some advice is, you're gonna fail. I know it's harsh but I did something similar to what you're doing right now and in the end, there wasn't a game anymore. I used exploit after exploit (like a lot of the things mentioned in this thread) to the point where I just sent an army of constructs to solve everything and that was it. Need to clear a dungeon? 100 greater stone golems. Need to stop a war? 1000 greater stone golems. etc. etc.

Let me tell you about Runic Guardians (named RG1). You can put one 7th level spell into them, and they can cast that spell for free once a day, forever and ever. So what you do is you put Simulacrum (the spell) in him that creates a simulacrum of a Hellfire Engine. So now 1/day you get a Hellfire Engine minion for free.

Now you create a new Runic Guardian (named RG2) who creates a simulacrum of RG1 1/day.
Day1:One RG1, One Hellfire Engines.
Day2: Two RG1, Three Hellfire Engines.
Day3: Three RG1, Six Hellfire Engines
Day4: Four RG1, Ten Hellfire Engines.
Day5: Five RG1, Fifteen Hellfire Engines.

Now you create a new Runic Guardian (RG3) who creates a simulacrum of RG2 1/day
Day1: One RG2, One RG1, One Hellfire Engine
Day2: Two RG2, Three RG1, Four Hellfire Engines.
Day3: Three RG2, 6 RG1, 10 Hellfire Engines
Day4: Four RG2, Ten RG1, Twenty Hellfire Engines.

Now you create a new Runic Guardian (RG4) who creates a simulacrum of RG3 1/day

You get the picture. In the span of one month you're gonna have thousands of Hellfire Engines, and your numbers keep increasing exponentially, for free.

So... yeah. Just like me, you're gonna fail because you'll break the game trying to make a construct master artificer playable in a game.

[Armyguyclaude]

Just some advice is, you're gonna fail. I know it's harsh but I did something similar to what you're doing right now and in the end, there wasn't a game anymore. I used exploit after exploit (like a lot of the things mentioned in this thread) to the point where I just sent an army of constructs to solve everything and that was it. Need to clear a dungeon? 100 greater stone golems. Need to stop a war? 1000 greater stone golems. etc. etc.

Let me tell you about Runic Guardians (named RG1). You can put one 7th level spell into them, and they can cast that spell for free once a day, forever and ever. So what you do is you put Simulacrum (the spell) in him that creates a simulacrum of a Hellfire Engine. So now 1/day you get a Hellfire Engine minion for free.

Now you create a new Runic Guardian (named RG2) who creates a simulacrum of RG1 1/day.
Day1:One RG1, One Hellfire Engines.
Day2: Two RG1, Three Hellfire Engines.
Day3: Three RG1, Six Hellfire Engines
Day4: Four RG1, Ten Hellfire Engines.
Day5: Five RG1, Fifteen Hellfire Engines.

Now you create a new Runic Guardian (RG3) who creates a simulacrum of RG2 1/day
Day1: One RG2, One RG1, One Hellfire Engine
Day2: Two RG2, Three RG1, Four Hellfire Engines.
Day3: Three RG2, 6 RG1, 10 Hellfire Engines
Day4: Four RG2, Ten RG1, Twenty Hellfire Engines.

Now you create a new Runic Guardian (RG4) who creates a simulacrum of RG3 1/day

You get the picture. In the span of one month you're gonna have thousands of Hellfire Engines, and your numbers keep increasing exponentially, for free.

So... yeah. Just like me, you're gonna fail because you'll break the game trying to make a construct master artificer playable in a game.

Yea lol. I think my DM is being lenient of my ideas so far and we've been talking a lot about what will be acceptable and what won't be. In our campaign right now there was a construct war in the past where a person tried to rise to power using constructs. I think in someway my DM is setting me up to become the worlds next evil villain. Which really is fine by me. I just want to make constructs lol. Think they're so cool :). Thanks for all the tips again.

Also one bit of confusion I still have about liquid pain/ambrosia. How do you get 3 vials of either from 1 using fabricate? I've read the spell a couple times and read your explanation, but I still don't understand. Sorry I'm slow xD

[RoboEmperor]

Yea lol. I think my DM is being lenient of my ideas so far and we've been talking a lot about what will be acceptable and what won't be. In our campaign right now there was a construct war in the past where a person tried to rise to power using constructs. I think in someway my DM is setting me up to become the worlds next evil villain. Which really is fine by me. I just want to make constructs lol. Think they're so cool :). Thanks for all the tips again.

Also one bit of confusion I still have about liquid pain/ambrosia. How do you get 3 vials of either from 1 using fabricate? I've read the spell a couple times and read your explanation, but I still don't understand. Sorry I'm slow xD

Normal Crafting: Example:Acid which costs 10gp
1. Buy RAW materials to make the Acid. Could be various chemicals, reagents, whatever. The cost of this is 1/3 of the acid, so it will cost 3.333333333gp.
2. Use a Craft Alchemy check (DC 15) to turn those chemicals, reagents, and whatever into acid.

Fabricate
1. You need the ORIGINAL MATERIAL that COSTS THE SAME as the raw materials.
2. So to create acid worth 10gp, you need acid worth 3.33333333gp instead of the chemicals, reagents, whatever.
3. Cast Fabricate on the 3.333333gp of acid, beat a craft alchemy check of 15 and you have now created 10gp of acid!

Liquid Pain
1. The cost of creating 3doses of liquid pain is 600gp.
2. The cost of raw materials of creating 3 doses of liquid pain is 1 dose: 200gp.
3. Since we're using Fabricate, we don't need the raw materials. Instead we just need 200gp of the original material, which is one dose of liquid pain.
4. Cast Fabricate on the one dose of liquid pain and beat a craft alchemy check of 25 and now you have created 3 doses of liquid pain!

[Armyguyclaude]

Normal Crafting: Example:Acid which costs 10gp
1. Buy RAW materials to make the Acid. Could be various chemicals, reagents, whatever. The cost of this is 1/3 of the acid, so it will cost 3.333333333gp.
2. Use a Craft Alchemy check (DC 15) to turn those chemicals, reagents, and whatever into acid.

Fabricate
1. You need the ORIGINAL MATERIAL that COSTS THE SAME as the raw materials.
2. So to create acid worth 10gp, you need acid worth 3.33333333gp instead of the chemicals, reagents, whatever.
3. Cast Fabricate on the 3.333333gp of acid, beat a craft alchemy check of 15 and you have now created 10gp of acid!

Liquid Pain
1. The cost of creating 3doses of liquid pain is 600gp.
2. The cost of raw materials of creating 3 doses of liquid pain is 1 dose: 200gp.
3. Since we're using Fabricate, we don't need the raw materials. Instead we just need 200gp of the original material, which is one dose of liquid pain.
4. Cast Fabricate on the one dose of liquid pain and beat a craft alchemy check of 25 and now you have created 3 doses of liquid pain!


Sweet thanks for that in depth explanation :)

[noob]

However after people discover how fabricate can be abused usually they either do a gentleman agreement to not abuse it that way or they change how it works.

[Armyguyclaude]

However after people discover how fabricate can be abused usually they either do a gentleman agreement to not abuse it that way or they change how it works.

I'm expecting that to happen, but it's fun to dream while I can. The majority of things I find on the internet my DM usually will either:

1) not allow

2) allow, but have horrible side effects

3) allow (but not often. He did approve allowing me to use some 3.0 spells in our campaign like Guidance of the Avatar. His quote, "Doesn't seem to be a game breaker"... little did he know xD)

Generally though, while the majority of things I either choose not to use or gets shut down completely, I just have fun theory crafting with and learning about. Since a lot of things I've came up on my own people would rant I was rules lawyering, but never said anything when I accepted rules or even stated rules that were given to me when it would work against me just so people knew I was keeping it fair. People just want to complain :)

[RoboEmperor]

However after people discover how fabricate can be abused usually they either do a gentleman agreement to not abuse it that way or they change how it works.

If you use the Law of Conservation of gp instead of the Law of Conservation of mass, and then explicitly allow a skill check whose sole purpose is to triple your wealth, the end result is inevitably a mass tripler.

[gogogome]

However after people discover how fabricate can be abused usually they either do a gentleman agreement to not abuse it that way or they change how it works.

I just said Fabricated objects cannot be sold and the problem seemed to be fixed. Crafting costing no xp isn't a big deal and you can't make magic items with fabricate. No one at my table thought to use liquid pain to create scrolls of wish and increase wealth that way, but excluding wish, I don't see how fabricate can break the game if you just don't let the players sell the fabricated items.

[thethird]

The "fun" part of fabricate as an artificer is that most likely you are accessing it by an item you crafted of the spell from the trapsmith list.

Crafting a magic item requires that you spend extra for spells with expensive material components, but those are not necesarily the ones called out by the spell.

Also since you are crafting cost reductions apply.

Have you heard of the tippyverse?

Ps. If you have the Mark of making check the Sky Forge from eberron to multiply by 10 the output of fabricate.