Warlock sans Eldritch Blast

[VoxRationis]

In 3.5, warlocks came with eldritch blast built in as an integral part of their class features. In 5e, though the warlock is generally equated with eldritch blast, and a disproportionate number of invocations are enhancements to that spell, warlocks aren't granted it automatically. It's fully possible to make a warlock without it, picking different cantrips instead. However, that would be a rejection of one of the most identifiable abilities of the warlock, one that is so valuable that this forum is replete with people recommending conceptually problematic multiclass builds just to obtain it. In light of that, I have two questions. Has anyone done this? If one were to do this, what would be a capable way to build the character, and what role would it fill?

[Arkhios]

Hexblade works great without Eldritch Blast, especially so if you choose the Pact of the Blade, and take the "extra attack" invocation, and the one that adds necrotic damage equal to your charisma modifier to your attacks with the pact weapon.

Frankly, any "bladelock" would work well without EB, doesn't have to be a hexblade.

[ad_hoc]

At the end of the day Eldritch Blast is just a d10 ranged attack.

There are others to choose from, esp. with supplements. Create Bonfire and Toll the Dead are both good for example.

Most of the Invocations related to Eldritch Blast aren't great. Agonizing Blast is the one that is good, but then, other invocations are also good.

The main characteristic that separates the Warlock from other casters is their maximized level casting. When other characters get 2-3 of their highest level spell the Warlock gets an average of 6. That's some powerful magic. A Warlock can, on average, drop a max level spell at the beginning of most or every combat. Cantrips are just clean up after that.

Focusing on a Cantrip rather than powerful spells is backwards.

[Ogun]

The number of EB attacks increase with character level,
otherwise a Hexblade might be better off with a heavy crossbow, given their ability to add Charisma modifiers to weapon attacks.
I have thought that Toll The Dead and Magic Stone would give your familiar damage options.

[Tanarii]

I've had a few players make Warlocks without Eldritch blast. In a dungeon & wilderness adventure campaign with plenty of combat, no less. They're characters where they wanted to spend their invocations on stuff other than the EB invocations anyway. They had Chill Touch instead, although now I allow XtgE content I've seen one with Toll of the Dead instead.

One thing worth noting if you don't have the invocations is damage distribution. With EB, starting at 5th level, you're likely to get some hits, but not all hits. Other cantrips are all or nothing. So EB tends towards more consistent damage, whereas other cantrips tend to be single bigger hits or no damage. (TWF also has this property compared to 2H, before extra attack.)

As an example, if you have a 60% chance to hit:

At level 5
EB (DPR 6.6): 16% 0; 48% 1d10; 36% 2d10
CT (DPR 5.4): 40% 0; 60% 2d8

At level 11:
EB (DPR 9.9): 6.4% 0; 28.8% 1d10; 43.2% 2d10; 21.6% 3d10
CT (DPR 8.1): 40% 0; 60% 3d8

Of course, with EB you can also split them up if needed.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I don't think BladeLocks need EB at all any more. With the Improved Pact Weapon invocation, they can get a +1 longbow, doing 1d8+1 damage, which is comparable to EB's 1d10. And they can add their Dex to its damage without an invocation, whereas EB needs Agonizing Blast to get Cha added to its damage.

For a SAD Hexblade who doesn't need to pump Dex, EB is probably the way to go. But for BladeLocks of other pacts, it's worth pumping Dex and considering a magic longbow as a pact weapon.

[Unoriginal]

Eldritch Blast is the best attack cantrip in the game, but it doesn't make the other cantrips bad.

As long as you have a reliable way to use your powers without being required to spend spell slots, your Warlock is fine.

I suppose Celestial Warlock + Fire cantrips can give pretty nice results.

[ad_hoc]

Eldritch Blast is the best attack cantrip in the game, but it doesn't make the other cantrips bad.

Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade are the best.

The strength of the other good cantrips are very slight in difference. There are multiple attack cantrips that are close enough to each other to not matter. Eldritch Blast is consistent, but others are better in different situations. A Tome Pact Warlock is better off picking a variety of those cantrips to use the best one for the situation.

[Unoriginal]

Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade are the best.


The Blades cantrip are melee-range only, no. That makes them not suitable in plenty of situations, though very useful in some. Eldritch Blast doesn't have that problem.

Sure, a variety of cantrips can be great.

[ad_hoc]

The Blades cantrip are melee-range only, no. That makes them not suitable in plenty of situations, though very useful in some. Eldritch Blast doesn't have that problem.

Eldritch Blast gets disadvantage in melee.

If we're ranking the attack cantrips the blade ones are on top.



Sure, a variety of cantrips can be great.

Yep, and they're as good as Eldritch Blast. There isn't anything special about 1d10 damage.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Eldritch Blast's main gimmick in fifth edition is the multiple attacks it gets when the spellcaster levels up.
At first level, for example:
A Heavy Crossbow deals 1d10+Dex
Eldritch Blast deals 1d10
Firebolt deals 1d10
All of these suffer disadvantage in melee
By fifth level:
A Heavy Crossbow deals 1d10+Dex damage twice on a martial class, but only if you drop a feat on Crossbow Expert
Eldritch Blast deals 1d10+Cha twice, but only if you've spent one of your Invocations
Firebolt deals 2d10, but you only get to make one attack roll

Eldritch blast lets you go fishing for critical hits, and lets you split attention between enemies, maybe focusing on the guy over in melee, but also cheekily stinging an enemy caster to provoke a Concentration check. EB gets more attacks as it levels up, too, where the Firebolt just gets more damage, it's all tied down in one attack. The Fighter will be able to keep [ace with Eldritch blast, but only a fighter, and only one that's dropped a valuable feat or ASI slot into grabbing Crossbow Expert. Conversely, Invocations not only aren't as important to a Warlock, but you can swap them in and out at later levels. Your DM not as big on giving you unreadable, crumbling texts as you thought? You can swap out Eyes of the Rune Keeper to grab something that might help you in combat more.
If your campaign never calls for a compass, or if everybody is packing a sufficiently high Survival modifer, that "Always know which way is North" feature of the Keen Mind feat is going to just be dead weight, and you'll never be able to switch it out for Sharpshooter or Spell Sniper.

This all being said: it's very possible to run an effective Warlock without Eldritch Blast. Form a voting bloc with your Monk and your Fighter to lobby for frequent Short Rests and you are a constant battery of arcane assaults from your actual spells that eat spell slots. Because every Scorching Ray, Witch Bolt, or Cure Wounds you send out is going to be fired off at your maximum spell level, and you'll never have to hem or haw about it eating your third level spell slot and keeping you from tossing out a clutch Counterspell, like a Wizard or Sorcerer are going to be worrying about. You're a Warlock. You're spellcasting at 100% all the time, you've earned maybe using Minor Illusion instead of grabbing EB.

[Arkhios]

Yep, and they're as good as Eldritch Blast. There isn't anything special about 1d10 damage.

Well, to be fair, it's 1d10 force damage. That's kinda big thing, considering the low amount of creatures resistant or immune to force damage (there are some, but not very many).

[Asmotherion]

Gee, you just made me realise that I'm more addicted to Eldritch Blast and it's support mechanics than my Warlock Dip itself. Mostly because I think a Warlock without EB would suck. Long live the power to shoot Concussion Beams from your palms (And optimise around it). That's why I play a Warlock Dip.

Congrats on giving me an epiphany!

[Tanarii]

For anyone interested, here are the damage curves for a level 5 EB vs CT. Assumptions are +3 Cha, no agonizing, hit chance averaged over AC 13-18. This is your chance of doing at least N damage, so a curve more up and/or right is better. Black line is EB.

https://anydice.com/program/11410

EB has the better overall curve, but the consistency aspect really comes into play near the left side of the graph, which shows a huge chance of doing at least some minor damage (~80%). Whereas CT has a jumo from doing no damage to only ~57% chance of doing some damage.

[Ogun]

Range matters.
If you fight at range, you can more easily use cover and hiding as a defense, and melee enemies must close with you to hurt you.
Their ability to close is affected by distance and terrain.
They are able to attack you from a few points on the map, you can attack can attack them from anywhere,even in melee,at a Disadvantage.
The blade enchantments don't even have Reach,you get more damage for giving up range.

[Spyderson]

My current hexblade warlock doesn't use EB. He is I'd say the face of the party and is an adept deceiver and infiltrator. He uses mask of many faces and has the actor feat. He has a knife+hex for most of his damage right now but has magic stones to toss at ranged opponents.

Lots of discussion here of what's optimal or not. I know it's not optimal, but it fits with his character and I enjoy playing it. He seems to keep pace with the party in combat just fine.

I was lucky enough to get my hands on a dragon mask that lets me add my CHA to my AC pumping it to 20. Could get up to 23? With max CHA and a shield. Which keeps me a little more survivable in melee.

[Spiritchaser]

A player at my table rocks a half Elven hexblade bladelock with GWM and Elven accuracy.

He does considerably more damage with the sword than with his EB, however, he face plants considerably more as well, after which point his dpr drops to... well zero.

He often risks close range when he “shouldn’t” because that’s how he’s decided to play, and yes, he truly can bring the pain in melee range...

But I have to wonder how survivable and fun the character would be without his stand back and blast option.

It’s really that versatility that makes him so strong in combat.

Lots of warlock tricks, plus Great damage from range or unholy damage up close...

[Citan]

In 3.5, warlocks came with eldritch blast built in as an integral part of their class features. In 5e, though the warlock is generally equated with eldritch blast, and a disproportionate number of invocations are enhancements to that spell, warlocks aren't granted it automatically. It's fully possible to make a warlock without it, picking different cantrips instead. However, that would be a rejection of one of the most identifiable abilities of the warlock, one that is so valuable that this forum is replete with people recommending conceptually problematic multiclass builds just to obtain it. In light of that, I have two questions. Has anyone done this? If one were to do this, what would be a capable way to build the character, and what role would it fill?
Hi!

It's perfectly doable.
Two main ways.
- Melee bee: darting in and out. You'll rely much on spells and you'll be frail for the few first levels, after while you would be fine (again, as long as you don't get out of slots for a big fight).
- Magic Handler: specialize him in social situation management: although a multiclass into Sorcerer for Subtle would be golden, you can be fine without. With any DM enforcing rules as normal, in "city days" when you don't fight strictly speaking, you should get many short rests without problem (at least one per meal ^^). So you can use many utility/manipulation spells without being too worried about resource consumption (barring concentration).



This all being said: it's very possible to run an effective Warlock without Eldritch Blast. Form a voting bloc with your Monk and your Fighter to lobby for frequent Short Rests and you are a constant battery of arcane assaults from your actual spells that eat spell slots. Because every Scorching Ray, Witch Bolt, or Cure Wounds you send out is going to be fired off at your maximum spell level, and you'll never have to hem or haw about it eating your third level spell slot and keeping you from tossing out a clutch Counterspell, like a Wizard or Sorcerer are going to be worrying about. You're a Warlock. You're spellcasting at 100% all the time, you've earned maybe using Minor Illusion instead of grabbing EB.
That can work too. ^^
Although I would readily replace Fighter with Moon Druid (extremely strong motivation to short rest at least at low levels ^^) or even "better" Lore Bard (not only does he get Bardic Inspiration on a short rest soon enough, he can also get all three golden spells at level 6: Catnap, Rope Trick, Leomun's Tiny Hut -which he can ritual cast the last too-).

[ad_hoc]

Well, to be fair, it's 1d10 force damage. That's kinda big thing, considering the low amount of creatures resistant or immune to force damage (there are some, but not very many).

I don't think the difference is that big. It is true that Force is the 2nd best damage type and that is the special thing about EB, but it's not really that special. Most of the time it won't matter. EB is good against spellcasters concentrating on a spell, so there is that too. If we're giving absolute rankings to cantrips then EB has a slight edge over other similar ones. I just don't think it is enough of an edge to be excited about it, that's all. At the end of the day it is also just a cantrip. Spellcasters aren't there for their cantrips. So while EB is good, it doesn't define the Warlock.

A Tome Warlock is better off with other cantrips as they can maximize the efficiency of them by using the right one for the situation. EB is consistent, in that it is a good ranged cantrip in most situations so it is an efficient use of cantrip slots.

[Tanarii]

EB is consistent, in that it is a good ranged cantrip in most situations so it is an efficient use of cantrip slots.Agreed.

Heck, even for straight damage output at 120ft, the Firebolt curve has some advantages. It depends if you want to be sure of doing at least some damage, or take the (roughly 50%) chance of doing a slightly bigger hit. Again, assuming no agonizing blast.
https://anydice.com/program/1141a
(EB is black)

[Citan]

I don't think the difference is that big. It is true that Force is the 2nd best damage type and that is the special thing about EB, but it's not really that special. Most of the time it won't matter. EB is good against spellcasters concentrating on a spell, so there is that too. If we're giving absolute rankings to cantrips then EB has a slight edge over other similar ones. I just don't think it is enough of an edge to be excited about it, that's all. At the end of the day it is also just a cantrip. Spellcasters aren't there for their cantrips. So while EB is good, it doesn't define the Warlock.

A Tome Warlock is better off with other cantrips as they can maximize the efficiency of them by using the right one for the situation. EB is consistent, in that it is a good ranged cantrip in most situations so it is an efficient use of cantrip slots.
I overall agree with your analysis when comparing cantrips as-is (although I still you underevaluate the benefit of also dealing damage more consistently -since several chances- and having the best range of all).

Once you put Invocations in the equation, EB obviously trumps everything else, EVEN (sadly ^^) Thorns Whip now that you have the "pull 10 feet " one AND (double sadly) Ray of Frost now that you have the "reduce 10 feet speed" one.
Of course, it also means a player actually wants to invest into it.

Thing is, with Tome pact, only one Invocation is really dedicated to it. And Warlocks gets up to 7 invocations. So it's easy enough to spare one or two of them on improving Eldricht Blast. ;)
So of course since Tome nets you three free cantrips, you could just pick Thorns Whip and Ray of Frost so you have your options when plain damage doesn't cut it.

Thing is though? With this way...
- You still have to choose whichever suits best.
- It also means it's "cantrips slots" you couldn't spend on great utility such as Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth etc...

Eldricht Blast is like the One Ring, except it's up to the player to choose as far as to go. :)
But a high-level Warlock that picked at least one of the pull/push *and* speed reduction will be a great asset because you're basically sure he will land both effects.

[Arkhios]

I don't think the difference is that big. It is true that Force is the 2nd best damage type and that is the special thing about EB, but it's not really that special. Most of the time it won't matter. EB is good against spellcasters concentrating on a spell, so there is that too. If we're giving absolute rankings to cantrips then EB has a slight edge over other similar ones. I just don't think it is enough of an edge to be excited about it, that's all. At the end of the day it is also just a cantrip. Spellcasters aren't there for their cantrips. So while EB is good, it doesn't define the Warlock.

A Tome Warlock is better off with other cantrips as they can maximize the efficiency of them by using the right one for the situation. EB is consistent, in that it is a good ranged cantrip in most situations so it is an efficient use of cantrip slots.

I don't disagree with any of that. I just said that, for EB's defense, force damage is kinda big thing (I might be wrong but it's the only cantrip that does force damage, isn't it?).

That said, I'd be more than willing to consider playing just about any type of warlock without EB (and its related invocations), because, as you said, spellcasters aren't there only for their cantrips.

[Derpaligtr]

Eldritch Blast gets disadvantage in melee.

If we're ranking the attack cantrips the blade ones are on top.



Yep, and they're as good as Eldritch Blast. There isn't anything special about 1d10 damage.

Eldritch Blast has a great damage type, ridiculous range, and can be modified further (bonus damage and free knockback).

More cantrips need to have features that upgrade them.

The Warlock has spells to deal with creatures that got too close. You don't want to be throwing out a cantrip when you're about to meet the pointy end of a sword.

[RSP]

More cantrips need to have features that upgrade them.


That’s kind of the point of the Warlock/EB relationship, though. It doesn’t break anything if you wanted to make similar invocations for other cantrips, but you would be stepping on the Warlock’s toes by allowing other classes to “upgrade” cantrips.

[Vogie]

A Celestial Tome Warlock gets +cha to damage on fire & radiant spells, but since Fire Bolt (hence Tome) doesn't have a "multiple Rays" component, it'll always be a little behind, damage-wise all rays hitting... but it'd be the closest to a blast lock without

In my Sig, I have a homebrew 'lock patron based on druidic principals that discourages the use of EB.

[KorvinStarmast]

A Heavy Crossbow deals 1d10+Dex A warlock does not start with martial weapons proficiency. Light crossbow is the more useful point of comparison.

[Pex]

A warlock doesn't absolutely need Eldritch Blast. If a warlock does take it Agonizing Blast is worth the investment. You don't need the other invocations that deal with Eldritch Blast though they're nice to have if you want them. If you are a Bladelock you are not forbidden by threat of eternal damnation (Fiend Pact not withstanding :smalltongue:) to also have Agonizing Eldritch Blast and function well in combat with both melee and range.

You never need the Forum's approval on how you create your character.

But it helps if you have mine.

[UrielAwakened]

The reason Eldritch Blast is so good is the synergy with Agonizing Blast and Hex.

You go from dealing 4d10 (comparable to every other cantrip and worse than Toll the Dead situationally) to dealing 4d10+4d6+20.

More than twice the average damage of every other cantrip.

With that in mind no, I would not recommend building a Warlock without it unless it's a very synergistic Hexblade.

[MaxWilson]

In 3.5, warlocks came with eldritch blast built in as an integral part of their class features. In 5e, though the warlock is generally equated with eldritch blast, and a disproportionate number of invocations are enhancements to that spell, warlocks aren't granted it automatically. It's fully possible to make a warlock without it, picking different cantrips instead. However, that would be a rejection of one of the most identifiable abilities of the warlock, one that is so valuable that this forum is replete with people recommending conceptually problematic multiclass builds just to obtain it. In light of that, I have two questions. Has anyone done this? If one were to do this, what would be a capable way to build the character, and what role would it fill?

If I wanted to do this, I'd probably aim for something like a Sharpshooter Hexblade 2/Hunter Ranger 5/Mastermind 5+ with Mask of Many Faces and Misty Visions. The idea here is using Ranger + Sharpshooter + Cunning Action + Horde Breaker (3 attacks per round w/ Sharpshooter and advantage on one attack plus 3d6 sneak attack) to provide combat power, with Warlock providing SADness (Charisma instead of Dex) and illusion powers instead of providing damage.

If I really, really wanted to make a pure warlock without Eldritch Blast... I probably wouldn't do it, but if I did I'd make him a melee skirmisher relying on Mobile feat + Booming Blade for damage.

[strangebloke]

At the end of the day, EB is a good attack cantrip choice, but you can choose other ones that aren't really that much worse..

Agonizing blast is a good invocation, but there are other, arguably better ones.

If you get a few short rests in, you'll have as much gas in the tank as the Wizard does, and you still have your invocations to pick up nice abilities like at-will disguise self, silence, and invisibility.

[ZenBear]

I personally like the idea of playing a Charlatan Warlock cult leader pretending to be a Cleric. Casting Eldritch Blast would be a pretty big giveaway to any trained Arcanist.

[Thanatos 51-50]

A warlock does not start with martial weapons proficiency. Light crossbow is the more useful point of comparison.

A Warlock does not start with the ability to grab Firebolt, either. The direct comparison was between Warlock and Fighter.

[Citan]

A warlock doesn't absolutely need Eldritch Blast. If a warlock does take it Agonizing BlastRepelling Blast is worth the investment. You don't need the other invocations that deal with Eldritch Blast though they're nice to have if you want them. If you are a Bladelock you are not forbidden by threat of eternal damnation (Fiend Pact not withstanding :smalltongue:) to also have Agonizing Eldritch Blast and function well in combat with both melee and range.

Fixed that for you. :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

[Rebonack]

The main characteristic that separates the Warlock from other casters is their maximized level casting. When other characters get 2-3 of their highest level spell the Warlock gets an average of 6. That's some powerful magic. A Warlock can, on average, drop a max level spell at the beginning of most or every combat. Cantrips are just clean up after that.

Focusing on a Cantrip rather than powerful spells is backwards.

Max level spell casting is a weakness, not a strength. The majority of Warlock spells don't scale at all, including several of their exclusive spells like Hunger of Hadar. Except for lockdown effects that grant additional targets, spells scale very poorly when upcast. If the Warlock sat on the same spellcasting per day progression that the other full casters have, they would be significantly more powerful. And I think that weakness factors into the other goodies they get. Pact Magic gimps their full casting, so they get other class features that would be more on par with half-casters like the Paladin.

More to the topic at hand, Warlocks without Eldritch Blast can work fine. Bladelock has already been brought up. A Celestial Tomelock with Shillelagh and Green Flame Blade works just fine as well. Then there's the Face Stealer style Warlock. Pick up Actor, Mask of Many Faces, and Misty Visions. Out of combat you're the best infiltrator around. In combat you use illusions to make the enemy as miserable as possible.

[Tanarii]

Max level spell casting is a weakness, not a strength.
This statement is completely and utterly wrong.

[ad_hoc]

The reason Eldritch Blast is so good is the synergy with Agonizing Blast and Hex.

You go from dealing 4d10 (comparable to every other cantrip and worse than Toll the Dead situationally) to dealing 4d10+4d6+20.

More than twice the average damage of every other cantrip.

With that in mind no, I would not recommend building a Warlock without it unless it's a very synergistic Hexblade.

But then, we're talking about wasting your resources on a cantrip. Something that is used to add a bit to a minor fight or after the fight has been brought down to a minor one.

Hex is a waste of a spell and of concentration so that is out straight away. Then it is a toss up about using Agonizing Blast for an invocation. It's certainly a worthy slot, but then it also isn't better than many other invocations. Personally I would rather have a different invocation to round out the Warlock's utility but I can see why people take it.

(It's also silly to talk about what happens at level 20. Not only will the vast majority of games not get past 10th level or so, but cosmic entities won't care about the tiny amount of damage being caused. At that point we're comparing a cantrip against 5th+ level spells and those spells will win every time.)

[Derpaligtr]

This statement is completely and utterly wrong.

I see where someone can believe that max level spell casting isn't as good as being able to choose the level.

It's about versatility amd not having to blow a 5th level slot when you only need a 1st level spell. Casting expiditious retreat as a first level spell or as a 5th level has no different effect amd thus you're "wasting" 4 levels.

I don't agree with that sentiment, mind you. But I understand it.

The Warlock has the best casting system in the game and I would slap it on any other class, except maybe the wizard, and not think twice.

But I get that people might feel cheated out of some versatility or spell levels when casting non-scaling spells.

[Eragon123]

Warlocks in my opinion, play more like Saturday morning Cartoon villians moreso than any other class.

What do I mean by that.

First off you have your signature. This is youir bread and butter, what you always fall back on.
Whether it be eldritch blast.
Or illusions.
A cursed sword cantrips or extra swings.

Next. You have your edge maker.
This for when the fight gets serious and you no longer want to play fair.
Most people use Hex and then let it blend into signature.
Others use Darkness and Devil's Sight.

After that, rather than trying to force as much damage and utility as possible. I feel like warlocks should stash tricks up their sleeve. Always having a way out or perhaps another spell or invocation that is more limited.

Its a constant balance between making sure your signature is a versatile as possible but also making sure that if you are in a bad situation, you can switch tactics (and possibly run) on a whim.

[MilkmanDanimal]

Yes, you can make a Warlock and not use Eldritch Blast, and you can also make a personal goal to be a Rogue and never sneak attack. EB + Hex + a couple invocations makes for easily the best at-will ranged attack in 5e, and the combination of solid damage plus push/pull/slow control options makes it incredibly handy.

So, yes, very doable, but there's a reason it's the iconic class feature; it's just so mechanically solid you have to find a reason to not use it (and, yes, Hexblade in melee is, in fact, a reason to not use it).

[Citan]

Max level spell casting is a weakness, not a strength. The majority of Warlock spells don't scale at all, including several of their exclusive spells like Hunger of Hadar. Except for lockdown effects that grant additional targets, spells scale very poorly when upcast. If the Warlock sat on the same spellcasting per day progression that the other full casters have, they would be significantly more powerful. And I think that weakness factors into the other goodies they get. Pact Magic gimps their full casting, so they get other class features that would be more on par with half-casters like the Paladin.

I very, very strongly disagree with this statement.
I don't like the Warlock casting system very much, at least on a pure Warlock until level 5 or so, but it does not prevent me to appreciate the potential.
Among the spells that are exclusive to Warlock and are actually better upscaled...
- Armor of Agathys: would never spend a 1st level slot on that myself. Would probably not pick it for a blaster Warlock either. But as a 4th or 5th level spell, on a gishy build? It's worth.
- Hex: more on that when replying to the other post below.
- Hellish Rebuke: ability to damage on a reaction *even* on archers or casters: this wouldn't be my first pick or at least I wouldn't use it unless I know a rest is coming. But the damage scales good for a reaction spell.
- Arms of Hadar: usual scale for an AOE. You like it or you don't. For any Warlock that does not play hide and seek this can be a lifesaver, although the fact it targets STR save makes it indeed less useful than we'd like.

And that's it for those few I know.
Now on for other spells I remember being on Warlocks.
- Command (Fiend): another creature you can lock for one round, targets CHA or WIS (don't remember), making it fairly reliable.
- Blindness: same with CON save for blind.
- Hold Person: targets WIS, great when appliable (which is usually often, since it targets "humanoids" not just humans ;)).
- Invisibility/Fly: in a 3 or 4-man party (the most common from what I've seen around, but no stats ;)) it's a pain for other casters to blow a high-level spell "just for sneaking/running away/whatever" because they know 5th level spells are not that common and they have to wait end of day. While it's much easier to secure a short-rest (or Catnap) for Warlock.
- Shadow Blade: one of the best scaling spells, although it requires you to go in close range.
- Elemental Weapon: only sad thing is you can't keep this and Elemental Bane at the same time, but it fits with the auto-scale perfectly.
- Vampiric Touch: fuzzy ball here since it requires a melee spell attack, with the risk you can expect. On another hand, 1d6 damage per level is pretty nifty when you consider you regain half-life. There are many creatures that resist necrotic, but not *that* many.
- Elemental Bane: to be fair I don't think you'd need often to use it against two creatures at once. But it still means you can soften the big boss and one of its right hand at the same time. Not too bad all things considered.
- Fireball (Fiend): no need to explain.
- Guiding Bolt/Dissonant Whispers/Smite spells: you use this first for the rider it provides, but the scaling is decent.
- Flaming Sphere: extremely good cost/benefit ratio on this one. You just need to learn how to use it because it's a bit of a hassle to micro-manage at first. :)
- Wall of Fire: one of the best spells of all game, because blocks view AND deals irremediable scaling damage. Yikes!

You can legitimately not like the Warlock's casting system, but it is a strength. Just a different one from the long-rest casters.
With long-rest casters, for debuffs, you tend to plan in advance, choosing the lowest slot you can to affect one particular target (or group of targets) and plan around the idea you will indeed apply this spell with the cast.
Which is *never* guaranteed even if you're a Sorcerer. Only the Diviner Wizard could pretend to be an exception and *only* when he gets lucky on Portent rolls *and* targets the weakest save of an enemy.
So you plan a tactic with party, then execute it and see what happens.
And when you see a 4th or 5th level fail miserably, it feels like a big loss to you.

With a Warlock, it's a different mindset.
Using a target-scaling spell means you mostly *never* waste your round.
Sure, rarely will you affect all targets you expected. You may not affect the ones you wanted the most either. But the chance of casting a spell that targets 4-5 creatures at once and failing all of them is naught.

So instead of carefully crafting your plan and hoping everything will work as planned, you plan priorities as the flow goes. ;)

And you have enough non-concentration spells to keep a balance between "resource rentability" and "on-the-fly expense" too.
If/when an AOE would really help but enemies have high save, it's hard for a normal caster to upcast a Fireball "just to be sure even save won't save them".
A Warlock does not even question himself. If the spell is really needed, he casts it, and just expects to manage a short rest after.

Finally, unless you are in a game with a strict DM...
- If you dislike the number of spell known, then dips are largely worth the loss of capstone (although the capstone is underrated around here). You have Sorcerer and Bard that are available without thinking. Or you could plan on a higher WIS and dip into prepared casters.
- If you are afraid short-rest management may be trouble, simply talk with friends to find solutions or just don't play a Warlock in that game.


But then, we're talking about wasting your resources on a cantrip. Something that is used to add a bit to a minor fight or after the fight has been brought down to a minor one.

1. Hex is a waste of a spell and of concentration so that is out straight away. Then it is a toss up about using Agonizing Blast for an invocation. It's certainly a worthy slot, but then it also isn't better than many other invocations. Personally I would rather have a different invocation to round out the Warlock's utility but I can see why people take it.

(It's also silly to talk about what happens at level 20. 2. Not only will the vast majority of games not get past 10th level or so, but cosmic entities won't care about the tiny amount of damage being caused. At that point we're comparing a cantrip against 5th+ level spells and those spells will win every time.)
1. On the first bolded part, sadly, you just don't know how to use the spell.
Really.
You may not like it, which is legitimate, and you may prefer using other concentration spells in some fights, which is equally reasonable.

But Hex is...
- A spell which "curse moves onto creature" is not perceptible by RAW (except Detect Magic and the like).
- A spell that lasts up to 8 hours as soon as 3rd level spell, and 24 hours later. Which means you can (and should) perfectly cast it on a rat and kill it then take a short rest then use a bonus action on a creature when needed.
Or you can just "spam" it as needed in peaceful days in cities, since you can easily take a short rest just taking a lazy walk or grabbing lunch.
- A spell that can...
* Help a non-Barbarian martial to win Shove/Grapple checks against a creature (STR/DEX).
* Prevents an invisible creature to Hide (at least make it difficult), since the new target does not even need to be seen by RAW, as strange as may be (DEX).
* Prevent a normally strong creature to escape an Entangle (STR), or an intelligent one to discern the truth behind an illusion or Phantasmal Force (INT).
* Make an extremely difficult negociation succeed (since you can pair it with Enhance Ability on your side, a spell that many people can learn) (CHA).
* Ensures that someone you're trying to scam does not identify you're lying (INT/WIS).

This is a powerful tool really. :)

2. We completely agree on that part: Agonizing Blast overall is "just" damage. As far as dealing damage goes, there are many people that can do that as good or better than you. And with enemy's HP scaling, it does make a difference but not that often a determining difference.

The other invocations however? They can really make the difference between a TPK and a WIN. Yeah, I'll dare this statement.
Even among the highest CR creatures, you rarely have a flying speed or a normal speed going beyond 40-50 feet.
And at the usual level of play, very rare are creatures with such mobility.
However, all creatures have increasingly more dangerous melee attacks, and many also have nasty effects for melee / close range.

On that note, with up to 4 Rays, on which you could apply "10 feet less" + either "10 feet pull" or "10*[1-4] feet push", you are basically certain to apply all rides at least once.
Meaning you can prevent someone to deal dangerous melee attacks on fronliner friend, push one into a dangerous AOE, and all variants around the same idea.
It's not easy to use, you have to be very mindful about it, and it does require good knowledge about monsters too. But it's much, much, *much* more beneficial to the party in the long run than just a bit more HP of damage per turn.

[Rebonack]

This statement is completely and utterly wrong.

Your rebuttable is completely and utterly without substance.



I see where someone can believe that max level spell casting isn't as good as being able to choose the level.

It's about versatility amd not having to blow a 5th level slot when you only need a 1st level spell. Casting expiditious retreat as a first level spell or as a 5th level has no different effect amd thus you're "wasting" 4 levels.

I don't agree with that sentiment, mind you. But I understand it.

The Warlock has the best casting system in the game and I would slap it on any other class, except maybe the wizard, and not think twice.

But I get that people might feel cheated out of some versatility or spell levels when casting non-scaling spells.

It's the loss of versatility, yeah. A spellpoint variant Warlock is objectively more powerful than Warlock as written. Being able to use a lower spell level for something like Hex or Misty Step means you're not burning precious resources that would be better utilized for an Imprisonment or Hypnotic Pattern.

Mind you, I'm not saying that Pact Magic is bad. I'm not even saying that it's badly designed. I'm saying that being able to choose the level of a spell you cast is more powerful than not being able to choose the level of a spell you cast. Full stop. End of argument. The Warlock player is forced to either 'waste' spell levels or sharply limit their spell selection to the spells that do scale with level. And I think that's wholly intentional. In exchange for these limitations, they get access to the most potent at-will options of any full caster in the form of their Invocations. Being able to toss around Silent Image starting at level 2 is a pretty big deal. And being able to match the at-will damage of martial classes is pretty great, too.

[Citan]

Your rebuttable is completely and utterly without substance.




It's the loss of versatility, yeah. A spellpoint variant Warlock is objectively more powerful than Warlock as written. Being able to use a lower spell level for something like Hex or Misty Step means you're not burning precious resources that would be better utilized for an Imprisonment or Hypnotic Pattern.

Mind you, I'm not saying that Pact Magic is bad. I'm not even saying that it's badly designed. I'm saying that being able to choose the level of a spell you cast is more powerful than not being able to choose the level of a spell you cast. Full stop. End of argument. The Warlock player is forced to either 'waste' spell levels or sharply limit their spell selection to the spells that do scale with level. And I think that's wholly intentional. In exchange for these limitations, they get access to the most potent at-will options of any full caster in the form of their Invocations. Being able to toss around Silent Image starting at level 2 is a pretty big deal. And being able to match the at-will damage of martial classes is pretty great, too.
Agreed on the bolded part, I mean it's obvious.
But it's equally true for long-rest casters.
Yeah, those can more freely spend resources in an adequate way.
But even those will soon feel they spend "overkill" in encounter-filled days.
Sorcerer/Wizards using more Shield (or Absorb Elements) than expected to keep alive, Druids/Clerics/Bards spamming Healing Words or maybe Aid/Mass Cure Wounds when AOE hit the party.
Or re-casting concentration spells that broke early.
Many times imx does someone end in using a higher level slot than he'd like because, well, he has no 1st level slot left and no better option action-economy wise (of course, it's rarely like "curse, I only have a 5th level left for Healing Words" -which would hint at bad resource management in the first place-, but using "one level higher than should" for a spell is fairly common in my games).

For those too, the spell point variant would make them much, much more powerful. Basically, a Wizard would become more sturdy than a Fighter, healers would not be afraid to use Healing Words more often "just in case", and with some spells being imbalanced for historical reasons (Fireball) or otherwise (Healing Spirit) things could get out of hand fast.

The numbered slot system is there for a reason. Everyone "suffers" from it, Warlock just more than the others in combat, and much less outside (Invocations for free spells, short rests easy to pick in non-hostile environment meaning you don't care about "overcasting" a non-scalable spell such as Comprehend Languages, Suggestion etc).
It's just a different kind of balance in resource management. :)

[ad_hoc]

Your rebuttable is completely and utterly without substance.

That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.



A spellpoint variant Warlock is objectively more powerful than Warlock as written.

So is a Wizard.

I would much rather have more high level spells than more lower level ones.

The other casters just don't have very many high level slots. Spells are not linear. Higher level ones are much more powerful than lower level ones. Warlocks have the most potent spellcasting in the game.

[igor140]

It is for these reasons that I don't really consider Warlock a casting class. I think of it as a highly adaptable hybrid character that can cast some spells.

I don't know why people bring up Hex so often when discussing Warlocks. It's a pretty good spell for the first three or four levels, but is absolutely useless after that. You have so few spell slots that you almost always have a better option.

I also find it odd that people criticize Warlocks for their reliance on Eldritch Blast. You might as well criticize Fighters for their reliance on weapons.

Speaking of EB, many people seem to overlook the fact that the beams can be individually targeted. By the time you get three beams, you typically need to stack them to do any real damage, but there are definitely situations where you can pick off one or two weakened enemies in a turn without getting anywhere near the enemy.

The other consideration that doesn't seem to have come up yet in this thread is that, with a few exceptions (Hexblade), you don't choose Warlock because it does the most damage. You pick Warlock for the utility and adaptability.

So you pick a Warlock because you like the way it plays and the huge range of versatility, not necessarily because it has a specific skill.

[Joe the Rat]

Apologies for interrupting the tangent on Pact Magic: Pros and Cons.

As an exercise, I highly recommend playing a blastless Warlock of any stripe. You look at things differently.

Melee Bladelocks are straightforward in this regard, as EB is essentially a replacement for the Fighter's trusty rack-o-javelins. Doubly so for advanced bladelockery, where you can go ranger and pact weapon up a bow.

I'm enjoying my melee tomelock. Shillelagh, GFB, BB, and a thorn whip for the occasional bit of repositioning. Toll the dead fills in well for a ranged option. Essentially spam cantrips and fight like an angry cleric, dropping Agathys for icy retribution or saving the slot to Misty behind lines or throw down one of the Hadars to penalty box or clear a little walking space. The one thing I am missing is a good push option.

Toll the Dead really helps open some space as a fair fill in for the esteemed blast, though it does not mesh with Hex. If you prefer to run Hex, chill touch is your native replacement. Tomelocks have it easy. It's actually the chainlocks that have the hardest time weaning from EB.

Of course, if you opt to take more of a control angle, damage is a secondary function. Illusions, earth/water control, advantaged intimidation with friendship, random infestation movement, or a cheery bonfire for at will headaches.

[ad_hoc]

It is for these reasons that I don't really consider Warlock a casting class. I think of it as a highly adaptable hybrid character that can cast some spells.

...

By the time you get three beams, you typically need to stack them to do any real damage, but there are definitely situations where you can pick off one or two weakened enemies in a turn without getting anywhere near the enemy.


At 11th level you have 9 5th level spells and 1 6th per day.

And you don't think that makes for a caster?

A Wizard at 11th level has 2 5th level spells and 1 6th level.

A Warlock has 7 more 5th level spells per day than a Wizard does at 11th level. And you don't consider them casters?

When you have 3 beams they don't really matter because you have 9 5th level spells when other casters only have 2. For most groups 11th level is near the end of the campaign if it even went that high. The Warlock is a powerhouse, and it isn't because of EB.

[Derpaligtr]

Your rebuttable is completely and utterly without substance.




It's the loss of versatility, yeah. A spellpoint variant Warlock is objectively more powerful than Warlock as written. Being able to use a lower spell level for something like Hex or Misty Step means you're not burning precious resources that would be better utilized for an Imprisonment or Hypnotic Pattern.

Mind you, I'm not saying that Pact Magic is bad. I'm not even saying that it's badly designed. I'm saying that being able to choose the level of a spell you cast is more powerful than not being able to choose the level of a spell you cast. Full stop. End of argument. The Warlock player is forced to either 'waste' spell levels or sharply limit their spell selection to the spells that do scale with level. And I think that's wholly intentional. In exchange for these limitations, they get access to the most potent at-will options of any full caster in the form of their Invocations. Being able to toss around Silent Image starting at level 2 is a pretty big deal. And being able to match the at-will damage of martial classes is pretty great, too.

Meh.

When you need something, you need it. Being able to cast spells by a short rest far outstrips any negatives the casting system may have.

Pact Magic is best best designed magic system out there. Vancian magic isnporly designed because it makes the entire party need a long rest. Champion and ahort rest party members have to go by the vancian clock.

[BW022]

In 3.5, warlocks came with eldritch blast built in as an integral part of their class features. In 5e, though the warlock is generally equated with eldritch blast, and a disproportionate number of invocations are enhancements to that spell, warlocks aren't granted it automatically. It's fully possible to make a warlock without it, picking different cantrips instead. However, that would be a rejection of one of the most identifiable abilities of the warlock, one that is so valuable that this forum is replete with people recommending conceptually problematic multiclass builds just to obtain it. In light of that, I have two questions. Has anyone done this? If one were to do this, what would be a capable way to build the character, and what role would it fill?

Yes. I've had two bladelocks which didn't rely on eldritch blast.

The first was a strength-based character who used a glaive and reach -- using either other PCs to block, spider climb, or eventually fly. Never took agonising blast. Would only occasionally use EB and typically only when creatures forced range. The character only have a 14 charisma and it really didn't matter as nearly all spells were defensive or utility.

The second was a wisdom-based cleric (nature)/warlock who used heavy armor and shillelagh. The character would sometimes use EB if they couldn't close, but otherwise it wasn't really necessary.

I've also seen a rogue/warlock which was more stealth oriented and, as most damage came from sneak attack and blade-type cantrips, no point in using eldritch blast. He did more damage with a bow or thrown weapon due to sneak attack also.

[Ganders]

EB can be quite effective, but it's AB and multiple beams that make it so good. So for levels 1-4, at least, it's easy to do without.

At level 1 you might do more damage with a dagger, because daggers get +dex to damage and EB doesn't. If you have something like Shillelagh, that definitely does more damage.

So... while I still like EB I definitely put it off. Maybe learn it as my extra cantrip at level 4 (or level 10 on a hexblade). And wait to take AB until level 5 (or higher on a hexblade).

[Rebonack]

Agreed on the bolded part, I mean it's obvious.
But it's equally true for long-rest casters.

Indeedly.

Though I'm not strictly talking about long rest vs short rest casting. If there was a long-rest caster that got, say, six fifth level spells per day at level 9 (with no lower level spells) I would say that's objectively weaker than the typical spread of spell the more typical full casters get. Sure, you can toss out a few extra Cones of Cold, but what if you need to cast several utility spells? It sharply limits options. And versatility is a sort of power all its own.

I'm not sure if I'm being clear enough here, but I'm not talking about short rest casting. I'm talking about the inability to pick spell levels. They're only related because of how Warlock was designed. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

And for the record, Sorcerer can already do more or less what I outlined above via Font of Magic. Though it's rarely considered a good use of those spell slots.




Meh.

When you need something, you need it. Being able to cast spells by a short rest far outstrips any negatives the casting system may have.

Pact Magic is best best designed magic system out there. Vancian magic isnporly designed because it makes the entire party need a long rest. Champion and ahort rest party members have to go by the vancian clock.

Again, I don't disagree. Though I'm not really talking about long rest vs short rest casting. I'm talking about having the option to use higher or lower leveled slots. Having the option to cast Misty Step at level two instead of level five is a pretty big deal. Because sometimes you don't need or want to drop Thunder Step or Far Step.

This is why the Warlock can get away with having the at-will power they have. Whether that be eldritch blasting, Cha-based melee attacks, or being able to fling illusions all over the place without a care in the world. Their spellcasting runs out of steam, and it can very easily result in wasted spell levels, so they need other tools to pick up the slack.

[Unoriginal]

Is Sacred Flame better in the hand of a Celestial Warlock than it is for a Cleric?

Seems so to me, at least once the Warlock is lvl 6.

[Citan]

Meh.

When you need something, you need it. Being able to cast spells by a short rest far outstrips any negatives the casting system may have.

Pact Magic is best best designed magic system out there. Vancian magic isnporly designed because it makes the entire party need a long rest. Champion and ahort rest party members have to go by the vancian clock.
I would never go as far as saying it's the best designed magic system here.
Reeaaaaally not.

First "it makes the entire party needs a long rest" is, sorry to say, a very stupid argument.
EVERYBODY needs a long rest. Not only for the obvious hit die recovery, or occasional exhaustion recovery, but also for the many class features any class has that rely on a long rest: Barbarians's Rages, Fighter's Indomitable, archetype features in Sorcerer/Wizard/Warlock/Rogue (IIRC, no time to compulse everything again right now).

Second, getting a short-rest is never guaranteed.
It's easy enough to secure in non-hostile, non time-ticking contexts (like taking a day off in a city to just have a good time while hopefully securing interesting information).
It's not *that* hard in an outside environment where there is no creature specifically hostile to you.
It becomes much more unreliable when traveling in hostile environment.
Sure, it could be done, for example by barricading in a dungeon, but that means potential reinforcements waiting after the rest.

Leomund's Tiny Hut and Rope Trick both alleviate the difficulty of creating a secure environment, but come with the same drawbacks: if you climb stealthily in a Rope Trick, you're good. If you are able to disguise/cover the Hut, you're good.
In other cases? You'll have a welcome party.

There is also the timer problem: when you just fought a powerful party that depleted a good chunk of resources, but still need to press on because objective is short-timed? A long-rest caster won't care as much as a Warlock: he could blow a mix of low and high-level spells and still have punch for another fight.
The Warlock meanwhile, will have to either keep resources in that difficult fight, or blow half/full of them and then scales down to a cantripper.

Catnap, the latest addition, is one of the top 10 spells to know of the whole game for that exact reason: 10mn of safety are much easier to manage in hostile contexts than 1+ hour, and it makes short-rest obtainable even when on the clock.
It does have other kind of drawbacks though: affects a target only once, and makes them unconscious (so in case of surprise attack it's more dangerous for them).

So, whether or not you can get one / recommended number / very many short rests is wildly varying just from adventuring context.

Then comes the party composition: in a party with only one guy relying on short rest and all others being long-rest, it is sometimes difficult for *players* to convince others that taking a rest is beneficial to the party.
It surely is not a system problem, rather a player problem. But it does not change the fact that many people come and complain around here that they don't enjoy Warlock as they should.
(Strangely Monk people don't come nearly as often, while technically it's exactly the same thing: without resources, it's still an efficient character, just kinda bland).
Even Fighters and Bard don't *really* need short rest: they may ask for it if they expect another fight soon that will push their limits, but otherwise they can cope without Action Surge or Bardic Inspiration, even though those features are great.

That's another reason why Catnap shines: in such parties, trading a 3rd level slot to have one (or two, or three) party member regain full offensive strength is a very sweet proposal.

Indeedly.

Though I'm not strictly talking about long rest vs short rest casting. If there was a long-rest caster that got, say, six fifth level spells per day at level 9 (with no lower level spells) I would say that's objectively weaker than the typical spread of spell the more typical full casters get. Sure, you can toss out a few extra Cones of Cold, but what if you need to cast several utility spells? It sharply limits options. And versatility is a sort of power all its own.

I'm not sure if I'm being clear enough here, but I'm not talking about short rest casting. I'm talking about the inability to pick spell levels. They're only related because of how Warlock was designed. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

And for the record, Sorcerer can already do more or less what I outlined above via Font of Magic. Though it's rarely considered a good use of those spell slots.





Again, I don't disagree. Though I'm not really talking about long rest vs short rest casting. I'm talking about having the option to use higher or lower leveled slots. Having the option to cast Misty Step at level two instead of level five is a pretty big deal. Because sometimes you don't need or want to drop Thunder Step or Far Step.

This is why the Warlock can get away with having the at-will power they have. Whether that be eldritch blasting, Cha-based melee attacks, or being able to fling illusions all over the place without a care in the world. Their spellcasting runs out of steam, and it can very easily result in wasted spell levels, so they need other tools to pick up the slack.
Well, it seems that you perfectly understand the balance design of Warlocks (since conrarily to many others around here you keep free spells in mind ^^).

So then I don't really understand your gripe with the class. Unless you'd want and expanded spell list or Invocation list to get more options?
I can understand that well, but it's imo why multiclassing is there. Especially since there are so many 1st and 2nd level spells that you may want to use often, making the "spellcasting progression stop" (while you multiclass 1-3-5 levels in second class) very bearable imo. :)

[Tanarii]

At level 1 you might do more damage with a dagger, because daggers get +dex to damage and EB doesn't.

Yup. If you've got equal Dex and Cha mod, a Light Crossbow is a great good substitute for EB before level 5, especially since it saves you an invocation. And if you're often in closed quarters (ie a dungeon) throwing 2 daggers is actually superior in conjunction with Hex.

[Derpaligtr]

I would never go as far as saying it's the best designed magic system here.
Reeaaaaally not.

First "it makes the entire party needs a long rest" is, sorry to say, a very stupid argument.
EVERYBODY needs a long rest. Not only for the obvious hit die recovery, or occasional exhaustion recovery, but also for the many class features any class has that rely on a long rest: Barbarians's Rages, Fighter's Indomitable, archetype features in Sorcerer/Wizard/Warlock/Rogue (IIRC, no time to compulse everything again right now).

Second, getting a short-rest is never guaranteed.
It's easy enough to secure in non-hostile, non time-ticking contexts (like taking a day off in a city to just have a good time while hopefully securing interesting information).
It's not *that* hard in an outside environment where there is no creature specifically hostile to you.
It becomes much more unreliable when traveling in hostile environment.
Sure, it could be done, for example by barricading in a dungeon, but that means potential reinforcements waiting after the rest.

Leomund's Tiny Hut and Rope Trick both alleviate the difficulty of creating a secure environment, but come with the same drawbacks: if you climb stealthily in a Rope Trick, you're good. If you are able to disguise/cover the Hut, you're good.
In other cases? You'll have a welcome party.

There is also the timer problem: when you just fought a powerful party that depleted a good chunk of resources, but still need to press on because objective is short-timed? A long-rest caster won't care as much as a Warlock: he could blow a mix of low and high-level spells and still have punch for another fight.
The Warlock meanwhile, will have to either keep resources in that difficult fight, or blow half/full of them and then scales down to a cantripper.

Catnap, the latest addition, is one of the top 10 spells to know of the whole game for that exact reason: 10mn of safety are much easier to manage in hostile contexts than 1+ hour, and it makes short-rest obtainable even when on the clock.
It does have other kind of drawbacks though: affects a target only once, and makes them unconscious (so in case of surprise attack it's more dangerous for them).

So, whether or not you can get one / recommended number / very many short rests is wildly varying just from adventuring context.

Then comes the party composition: in a party with only one guy relying on short rest and all others being long-rest, it is sometimes difficult for *players* to convince others that taking a rest is beneficial to the party.
It surely is not a system problem, rather a player problem. But it does not change the fact that many people come and complain around here that they don't enjoy Warlock as they should.
(Strangely Monk people don't come nearly as often, while technically it's exactly the same thing: without resources, it's still an efficient character, just kinda bland).
Even Fighters and Bard don't *really* need short rest: they may ask for it if they expect another fight soon that will push their limits, but otherwise they can cope without Action Surge or Bardic Inspiration, even though those features are great.

That's another reason why Catnap shines: in such parties, trading a 3rd level slot to have one (or two, or three) party member regain full offensive strength is a very sweet proposal.

Well, it seems that you perfectly understand the balance design of Warlocks (since conrarily to many others around here you keep free spells in mind ^^).

So then I don't really understand your gripe with the class. Unless you'd want and expanded spell list or Invocation list to get more options?
I can understand that well, but it's imo why multiclassing is there. Especially since there are so many 1st and 2nd level spells that you may want to use often, making the "spellcasting progression stop" (while you multiclass 1-3-5 levels in second class) very bearable imo. :)

People always say the fighter/rogue can keep going and going, not really caring for ling rests. Not if they have a vancian caster ally. I garuntee you, that fighter or rogue is taking a long rest on the terms of their allies and not on their own terms.

Cantrips don't help. Wizard or Cleric ain't going into a big battle without their spell slots.

Yes a DM can try to mitigate this, by giving time frames, but that doesn't always work. Also the other end of the spectrum is that casters want to cast. Cantrips are very underwelming most of the time and don't come close to the same feeling as the spells.

Warlocks get to cast and not worry about having spell slots later. They don't have to spend 8 hours to get their spells back so they don't break pace nowhere near as bad as vancian casting.

Short rests may not be a garuntee, but the game is made with that assumption. A short rest doesn't hurt the narrative as much as a long rest can.

Having to cheese tiny hut or rope trick is a bad defense... And takes up a spell know and a casting of said spell. If you cast tiny hut as a ritual... That's 10 minutes... 20 more and you get a short rest. Just make them a short rest caster and you don't have to know a spell just to get more spells back.

Short rest casting is the evolution to long rest casting and is just better in every single way as it fixes the problems that long rest casting has fiven to D&D.

[Phoenix042]

My favorite alternative to eldritch blast involves noticing that Hex Warrior works with ranged weapons. At 1st level, it's just the hand crossbow, but by level 3 you can pick up improved pact weapon and have a +1 heavy crossbow or longbow. At level 5 you can get the extra attack and smite invocations, and eventually you can even add charisma as bonus damage to your attacks.

I put together a hexblade 9 / assassin rogue 11 once as a thought experiment while trying to find the highest damage single attack in the game (unmodified by outside buffs or magic items, with no additional saves required or anything). Last I did the math, he was coming in at around 205 damage in one attack, with no magic items, no allies buffing him, and no prep time before the attack.

I don't think that can be beat.

Plus his build looks like a really smooth and fun progression, gradually scaling up both his nova round and his typical attacks, which would be on par with or better than eldritch blast even without smiting at basically every level.

[Citan]

People always say the fighter/rogue can keep going and going, not really caring for ling rests. Not if they have a vancian caster ally. I garuntee you, that fighter or rogue is taking a long rest on the terms of their allies and not on their own terms.

Cantrips don't help. Wizard or Cleric ain't going into a big battle without their spell slots.

Yes a DM can try to mitigate this, by giving time frames, but that doesn't always work. Also the other end of the spectrum is that casters want to cast. Cantrips are very underwelming most of the time and don't come close to the same feeling as the spells.

Warlocks get to cast and not worry about having spell slots later. They don't have to spend 8 hours to get their spells back so they don't break pace nowhere near as bad as vancian casting.

Short rests may not be a garuntee, but the game is made with that assumption. A short rest doesn't hurt the narrative as much as a long rest can.

Having to cheese tiny hut or rope trick is a bad defense... And takes up a spell know and a casting of said spell. If you cast tiny hut as a ritual... That's 10 minutes... 20 more and you get a short rest. Just make them a short rest caster and you don't have to know a spell just to get more spells back.

Short rest casting is the evolution to long rest casting and is just better in every single way as it fixes the problems that long rest casting has fiven to D&D.
Obviously you play in games with a lenient DM that homebrews "short short-rest".
Because with Leomund's Tiny Hut, the minimum time when ritual cast is 60 minutes for others and 70 for you, provided the others starting relaxing when you were preparing.
And Tiny Hut is a big sign of "hey we are here attack us". Which is something Rope Trick doesn't.

[Rebonack]

Well, it seems that you perfectly understand the balance design of Warlocks (since conrarily to many others around here you keep free spells in mind ^^).

So then I don't really understand your gripe with the class. Unless you'd want and expanded spell list or Invocation list to get more options?
I can understand that well, but it's imo why multiclassing is there. Especially since there are so many 1st and 2nd level spells that you may want to use often, making the "spellcasting progression stop" (while you multiclass 1-3-5 levels in second class) very bearable imo. :)

Oh!

Okay, I get where you're coming from now. You thought I had a gripe with Warlock. Turns out I don't. I was just taking issue with the assertion that max-level spellcasting is a strength rather than a constraint. Because it is a constraint.

On the subject of non-eldritch blast Warlocks, given that we're digressing quite a bit, I've been experimenting with some homebrew invocations meant to allow a Warlock to fully specialize in other cantrips as well as a couple invocation chains to allow them to specialize in the Chain and Tome Boons just as deeply as they can invest into the Blade Boon. So far my players have really liked it. And it has resulted in some pretty interesting builds that completely ignore eldritch blast in favor of other options.

[UrielAwakened]

But then, we're talking about wasting your resources on a cantrip. Something that is used to add a bit to a minor fight or after the fight has been brought down to a minor one.

Hex is a waste of a spell and of concentration so that is out straight away. Then it is a toss up about using Agonizing Blast for an invocation. It's certainly a worthy slot, but then it also isn't better than many other invocations. Personally I would rather have a different invocation to round out the Warlock's utility but I can see why people take it.

(It's also silly to talk about what happens at level 20. Not only will the vast majority of games not get past 10th level or so, but cosmic entities won't care about the tiny amount of damage being caused. At that point we're comparing a cantrip against 5th+ level spells and those spells will win every time.)

The cantrip becomes better than damage dealing spells of most levels you can spam. Fireball against one target: 8d6 damage for a 3rd level spellslot (28 damage). Eldritch Blast of that level: 2d10+10+2d6 (28 damage, every round, for the low price of a Hex you cast once per short rest)
.
You end up getting way more utility out of those spell slots by using them on other things than damage, and the cantrip keeps you at pace damage-wise with every other class's all-day resources.

People who didn't play 4e don't understand that the real strength of a class lies in all-day DPR, not nova potential.

A DM can mitigate your dailies. They can't mitigate your at-wills. And that's why Eldritch Blast is so unbelievably good. You get all the damage of people slinging around their best damage spells plus the utility they're missing out on.

[Derpaligtr]

Obviously you play in games with a lenient DM that homebrews "short short-rest".
Because with Leomund's Tiny Hut, the minimum time when ritual cast is 60 minutes for others and 70 for you, provided the others starting relaxing when you were preparing.
And Tiny Hut is a big sign of "hey we are here attack us". Which is something Rope Trick doesn't.

I don't, but this is how many others do.

They use these spells in order to rest and I've seen plenty of times in AL where someone was allowed to ritual cast Tiny Hut for a fraction of the time.

My groups don't work that way, but I've played in plenty that have and even AL. There's a reason why the 10 minute adventuring day still persist.

The short rest casting mechanic gets rid of this as the warlock can keep up with the fighter, rogue, barbarian, and others will all day potential and don't hold the party back when their main thing is gone. Taking a small break and then everyone is on the same page and out the door works wonders for party synergy.

Plus, and the biggest thing is, that spellcasters want to spellcast. Making a system that encourages players to wait till the boss to blow each spell right after another runs counter to the whole point of being a magical spellcasting character... To cast spells.

[ad_hoc]

(28 damage, every round, for the low price of a Hex you cast once per short rest)


Yes, a level 1 spell instead of a level 3-5 spell slot. And could very well be gone straight away. Lucky to have it last into the 2nd battle unless they were easy battles.

The problem with Hex is that either it isn't enough or it is too much. If it is a difficult battle then you want something powerful to start with so the party doesn't get creamed. Upfront power is better than damage over time because it gets the job done now before party members start dying (which is probably you to start). Or, if the battle is easy then it is a waste of a spell.

The added damage that it provides to the party as a whole is minor.

Fireball isn't there to deal 28 damage to a creature. Or to deal 28 damage to 5 creatures over 5 rounds. It is there to kill many creatures before they get to do anything. I would much rather cast Fireball against a bunch of creatures then EB without Hex than just have EB with Hex. Also, if we're saying +10 that means a 20 Cha which means level 8 so the fireball will be 4th level for 35dmg or more likely a better 4th level AoE spell.

[jas61292]

Warlocks can absolutely function without Eldritch Blast. While I've not played much warlock myself, I've played in long term campaigns with them twice, and neither warlock had Eldritch Blast, yet both set highly effective party members.

The first of these was a blade warlock. He was always in melee, so he didn't see a good reason to utilize a ranged cantrip. He may have had one, but if so, he rarely used it and it was not eldritch blast. He certainly wasn't going to waste an invocation on it, and without those, it's not that much better than anything else.

The second warlock was just not very combat focused at all. He was all into the social and manipulation side of things, so again, he had no interest in wasting an invocation on a damaging cantrip. Instead, as a tome lock, he grabbed Ray of Frost for his damaging needs, as the reduced speed offered greater utility, sort of like a lesser repelling blast without the need to take an invocation specifically for it.

As mentioned, both characters were highly effective party members. You really do not need to be a ranged dps guy to be a good warlock.

[UrielAwakened]

Yes, a level 1 spell instead of a level 3-5 spell slot. And could very well be gone straight away. Lucky to have it last into the 2nd battle unless they were easy battles.

The problem with Hex is that either it isn't enough or it is too much. If it is a difficult battle then you want something powerful to start with so the party doesn't get creamed. Upfront power is better than damage over time because it gets the job done now before party members start dying (which is probably you to start). Or, if the battle is easy then it is a waste of a spell.

The added damage that it provides to the party as a whole is minor.

Fireball isn't there to deal 28 damage to a creature. Or to deal 28 damage to 5 creatures over 5 rounds. It is there to kill many creatures before they get to do anything. I would much rather cast Fireball against a bunch of creatures then EB without Hex than just have EB with Hex. Also, if we're saying +10 that means a 20 Cha which means level 8 so the fireball will be 4th level for 35dmg or more likely a better 4th level AoE spell.

So you take a level of Sorcerer and use those slots for Hex.

I really don't get the argument here. Eldritch Blast is just better and it's not even close.

People who just blow fireballs right away are having vastly different campaign encouters per day than I am. You're gonna blow for those last 4 battles today and I'm going to be awesome.

[Citan]

I don't, but this is how many others do.

They use these spells in order to rest and I've seen plenty of times in AL where someone was allowed to ritual cast Tiny Hut for a fraction of the time.

My groups don't work that way, but I've played in plenty that have and even AL. There's a reason why the 10 minute adventuring day still persist.

The short rest casting mechanic gets rid of this as the warlock can keep up with the fighter, rogue, barbarian, and others will all day potential and don't hold the party back when their main thing is gone. Taking a small break and then everyone is on the same page and out the door works wonders for party synergy.

Plus, and the biggest thing is, that spellcasters want to spellcast. Making a system that encourages players to wait till the boss to blow each spell right after another runs counter to the whole point of being a magical spellcasting character... To cast spells.
So, on first point, you are taking a fraction of people (how large may it be) that twist the game rules to say the game rules are flawed?
It's an "interesting" way to make an argument. I have to say, it at least lacks the "convincing" part.

"The short rest casting mechanic gets rid of this as the warlock can keep up with the fighter, rogue, barbarian, and others will all day potential and don't hold the party back when their main thing is gone."
I don't see what it gets rid of really: the long-rest casters have been all ready to chain several encounters.
You have a very specific way of seeing spellcasting, as "I want to spam spell", so you expect the game to give you candies like it was raining.
Except it's not supposed to, for good reason.
WoTC has >20 years of experience backing 5e design. With that experience, they decided they were fed up with spellcasters trumping anything else at high level.
That's why they made up concentration, that's why they put back a leveled slot system. To be able to keep the essence of magic, which is "making things normally impossible possible", while keeping balance.

Most spells of 3rd level and beyond have the potent to transform a deadly encounter into a hard or even easy one.
You are *not* supposed to be able to spam this kind of effect.

It's also why they made many different balances of spellcasting fuel and spell versatility by combining vancian slots, rituals, spell known and prepared spells.
As well as reintroducing a scalability system, although on a case-by-case basis, once again to get the highest chance of keeping balance.

You like Warlock? Good for you.
Notice how many people dislike it? Per your view, everyone should enjoy it however...
Except they don't. Precisely because, to keep balance, designers gave only 2 slots per short rest. And precisely because you can *never* know when you can get a rest in a dungeon.

And you introduce another fallacy, that is, putting everyone at short-rest would resolve all problems. It would just create others.
Now casters would be back in 3e realm, making martials utterly useless in the long run. DM would need to up the game by several orders of magnitude, or take the habit of making the world trying to actively prevent short rest.
Besides, realistically, all characters are *creatures*: barring very specific builds of race and class feature, they all need to get a long rest to sleep.
Remember the exhaustion rule ? It means that it's very rare for a party to push beyond a net 24h day, and that is the worst.
More often creatures follow a regular course of living, taking a much longer rest at night (or day for night creatures).
So everyone will want a long-rest in a day.
If in your experience long-casters dictate when to stop for the day and tend to push for 5 minutes adventuring days, then it's only a player problem (in or out of character), possibly a DM problem, not a game problem.
Speaking to players ootg to explain how unfun it is, putting timed objectives and spys/assassins/harassers as a DM to break long-rest (which is often very justifiable, especially if actively fighting a faction or near/inside an enemy lair) is another method.

---
So you should rejoice that's it not the only magic system here. Because otherwise, far fewer people would play or DM. And that can never be a good thing.

If you want to play a character that can unleash loads of fireball or fear-inspiring effects in a single day... Just play another system.
5e is not suited for that, and for the best.

Besides, you are the only one cringing for that.
Reasonable people notice there are Land Druid and Wizards who get a good spell choice versatility, ritual casting to alleviate the resource consumption and an arcane recovery feature to get back some oomph when needed.
Sorcerers can play with Metamagics instead to alleviate resource consumption and slot converstion to optimize it in corner cases.

So different people actually have the choice to pick the class that holds the balance they like the most between spontaneous casting, free casting and resource management.

[ad_hoc]

You're gonna blow for those last 4 battles today and I'm going to be awesome.

Warlocks get 1 spell slot for almost every encounter of the day. Certainly for every encounter of any substance. And it's their highest level one.

This is what makes them good. A Wizard cannot use their highest slot on every encounter. But a Warlock can.

[Pex]

Warlocks get 1 spell slot for almost every encounter of the day. Certainly for every encounter of any substance. And it's their highest level one.

This is what makes them good. A Wizard cannot use their highest slot on every encounter. But a Warlock can.

A wizard doesn't have to use their highest slot on every encounter. Second level slots offer great control - Suggestion, Phantasmal Force, Hold Person, Web. First level is good for defense with the stereotypical Shield and Absorb Elements, enough not to need Mirror Image or Blur to keep 2nd level slots for offense. Even so, Silent Image can shape the battlefield to your favor. As the warlock can spam Eldritch Blast the wizard can spam his own cantrips. One can say Eldritch Blast is the most wonderful cantrip ever. Hooray for Eldritch Blast. That does not mean the other damage cantrips are worth less than used toilet paper. They're decent enough in their own right and lets the wizard meaningfully contribute that round when he doesn't need to cast a big boomba spell.



Edit: typos

[UrielAwakened]

Warlocks get 1 spell slot for almost every encounter of the day. Certainly for every encounter of any substance. And it's their highest level one.

This is what makes them good. A Wizard cannot use their highest slot on every encounter. But a Warlock can.

If your DM is an idiot and lets your short rest after every battle yeah.

But that's not how 5e is balanced. And according to the normal rest schedule you're out of useful actions two rounds in unless you optimize Eldritch Blast. Which is why you do it.

[Unoriginal]

Cantrips exist because it's not much fun for most people to be a supposed magic user, yet have to shoot your backup crossbow anytime you've used your slots.

However, most cantrips do less damage than a martial's regular attacks for the given level.

Eldritch Blast is one of the few that avoid that, which balances the Warlock's short-rest spell recovery.

Doesn't mean it's the warlock's only option, though.

[ad_hoc]

If your DM is an idiot and lets your short rest after every battle yeah.

But that's not how 5e is balanced. And according to the normal rest schedule you're out of useful actions two rounds in unless you optimize Eldritch Blast. Which is why you do it.

Every 2 battles.

If you aren't wasting a slot on Hex then Warlocks get 2 slots per short rest.

The game is, in fact, balanced around this. On a bigger encounter day of 8, not all of the encounters should be difficult.

On a smaller day of 6 the Warlock has 1 spell for every encounter.

Are you arguing that every other cantrip is a waste of an action? That all other casters, if they don't have leveled spells to cast might as well do nothing because cantrips are useless? Because that is what you just said.

Adding a few more damage onto 1 PC's cantrip won't do much to sway the battle. It probably won't even be noticed in most battles.