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Hario
2007-09-13, 11:25 PM
Ok I'm in a campaign with a newbie dm and some newbish players. The DM is a good friend of mine (possibly more) and she asked me to play, even though she feared from some of my storys of powerful characters I've had. So they needed a healer, and I'm sick of playing a cleric, so I made a druid, a raptoran one no less. So her campaign is apparently homebrew d20 dnd. So at one point my druid is trying to get into a room below, when he's on top of a building, an instead of wildshaping into a snake and going inside the room, I summons a dire wolf (I'm lvl 5) so it sees a threatening mage, and eats its face off, I didn't even realise how much damage it does beforehand. So as a note, I horribly toned down my druid, and made him pretty much a heal bot and a support bot, I prepped all healing and support spells, minus poison and flaming sphere. So Tonight I summon another dire wolf and my animal companion (advanced wolf w/ chain barding) it tank a hallway full of guards, so at this point the DM gets all furious and claims my druid is broken because of the wolves, (when in reality she was throwing CR 2 creatures at us all night) Are Wolves really that broken? How can I (tone) down my druid even more without making him a total heal bot? Healbots = lame. Any suggestions?

Nerd-o-rama
2007-09-13, 11:28 PM
Tell her to give you harder opponents instead of swarms of CR 2's?

Summon swarms of Badgers instead?

Play a Cloistered Cleric? Or possibly a Favored Soul? Weaker classes than Cleric or Druid, but still useable and healing-capable.

Admit you and the rest of the group aren't on the same playing feel, graciously bow out, and ask the DM out for coffee-and-DM-strategy-discussion like you implied you wanted to?

Hario
2007-09-13, 11:45 PM
Ok so she likes staying close to core, the only reason she allowed raptoran is because I had a decent backstory, I also told her I'm sick of just switching between elf and human, and most of the party is all different races, being human is the minority

JackMage666
2007-09-14, 12:22 AM
I feel your pain, sir, I feel your pain.

It sucks having to gimp yourself so you don't outshine others, I know this. It may be best to bow out. It could very well be that the CR 2 monsters area challenge for the newbie players, and that's why she's sticking with them. If that's the case, there isn't much you can do, really. Offer advice to her, maybe, but overall your skill might make it difficult to play with this group. If the CR 2s are easy for everyone, you need to tell your DM to through some harder things at ya, like CR 3s and 4s.

lord_khaine
2007-09-14, 04:45 AM
well you did manage to pick just about the nastiest critter that can be summoned with a lv 3 spell, what about either helping the rest of the group to shape up a bit, so all can take a lv 5 encounter, or else use call lightning instead, that should make the battles last a bit longer.

Crow
2007-09-14, 05:03 AM
Don't gimp yourself.

Make yourself the ultimate support character. Use all manner of broken combinations to buff your allies. This will spread some of the ire around the party and make for a grand ol' time!

And now for advice I would actually follow:

If you think you have an honest chance with this chick, "gimp" your character by playing at a more laid back pace. Play casually and just play for enjoyment's sake. Summon a celestial porpoise every once in a while. So what if your character doesn't kick ass? You're hanging out with friends, which is what this is all about. Enjoy it. Play the incompetent sidekick, or the comic relief (though incompetent sidekick is easier to pull off without being a dumbass). Again, if you think you have a real chance with this girl, you need to put off "winning" D&D for a little while.

Chances are your girly-friend wants to be a good DM, and wants to have everybody take part in a great story. Cut back on the hassle she has to deal with.

Saph
2007-09-14, 06:52 AM
Dire wolves aren't broken, but they're one of the more powerful options for a druid, and druids are one of the more powerful classes. Putting barding on a dog/wolf companion is also one of the best ways to maximise its toughness. This is fine if you're playing a fairly tough campaign (I play a druid in a World's Largest Dungeon game, and my summoned animals have saved the party lots of times) but all together, this should make it obvious where the problem's coming from. Against tough opponents, summoned dire wolves are good. Against CR 2 and toned-down enemies, summoned dire wolves will result in all the enemies running around in circles screaming "GET IT OFF ME! GET IT OFF GET IT OFF GET IT OFF! AAAAGH! IT'S TRIPPED ME AND NOW I CAN'T EVEN RUN AWAY ANYMORE!"

Which is kind of funny, but, like you said, has problems.

Just tone down the things you're summoning. Stick with Summon Nature's Ally II instead, making dire badgers and black bears, and use them in a support role, letting the party fighters take the front line. Keep your 3rd-level spell slots in reserve for when you really need them. If the rest of the party all ask you to use them, great. If not, let them get some action.

- Saph

Hario
2007-09-14, 06:55 AM
The problem with being comedy relief is that there is a gnomish bard/barbarian/rogue who tries to be the comedy relief when he has no party role or anything, It just happends the only ones in the party that can do damage, are the Paladin, the evocationist sorcerer, and myself. So the Rogue (1)/Monk (4) and the gnome don't do any real damage or have any real party role. I guess the monk could tank but he doesn't do it, ever. I try to give the newbie players tips on being more effective, though that prolly gets on her nerves too :smallsigh: . I guess I could just keep preparing buffs for the Paladin and sit into longer combat (the Paladin doesn't think I'm all that broken, its the monk who attacked my dire wolf, who felt its wrath, who thinks I'm broken) The problem with a druid core is that they mostly have utility and minor support spells, like bulls strength and spider climb.

Saph
2007-09-14, 07:02 AM
The problem with a druid core is that they mostly have utility and minor support spells, like bulls strength and spider climb.

. . . and they summon animals more powerful than the party fighters.

If you're in a core-only party with a rogue/monk and a bard/barbarian/rogue, and you're playing a druid, being powerful is not the problem. Making other PCs irrelevant is.

That said, if the monk attacked your wolf, he deserved whatever he got. I would have let the wolf eat him, but that would probably have made things worse.

- Saph

Telonius
2007-09-14, 07:33 AM
The problem with being comedy relief is that there is a gnomish bard/barbarian/rogue who tries to be the comedy relief when he has no party role or anything, It just happends the only ones in the party that can do damage, are the Paladin, the evocationist sorcerer, and myself. So the Rogue (1)/Monk (4) and the gnome don't do any real damage or have any real party role. I guess the monk could tank but he doesn't do it, ever. I try to give the newbie players tips on being more effective, though that prolly gets on her nerves too :smallsigh: . I guess I could just keep preparing buffs for the Paladin and sit into longer combat (the Paladin doesn't think I'm all that broken, its the monk who attacked my dire wolf, who felt its wrath, who thinks I'm broken) The problem with a druid core is that they mostly have utility and minor support spells, like bulls strength and spider climb.

Okay, this does give a little more insight. Two major problems here: 1, the Monk in the party is being outshined and is feeling a little bitter about it. 2, the DM is not tailoring the encounter to the party.

Point 1 will be the harder one to address. Monks are hard to play. They require excellent build-planning and superior understanding of battlefield tactics to "keep up." (And even then it's tough). If the player is new and didn't know what he was getting into, it's not surprising that he's getting a little frustrated. Has he been missing a bunch with his Flurry of Blows? Getting taken down to half hitpoints in a single hit? That could be part of the problem. See if you can get your DM to throw the Monk any kind of a homebrew bonus - bigger hit die, full BAB, ability to enchant the monk's fists - anything to help.

Point 2 is also going to be tricky. You've said it's homebrew, so I'm assuming there will be no set magazine or anything for her to draw from. It seems to me that she isn't very experienced in D&D either. Sending CR2 anything against a 5th-level party is supposed to result in massive death of the CR2 stuff, and as DM she should know this. Mages should never, ever, ever (no, not even then) be alone in a room without some sort of meatshield to protect them. Given that much of a learning curve, she has a whole lot of learning to do before she's at the skill level you want from a DM. I would talk this over with her. Don't be too proud about it - it's not that you're that much better at D&D (although you are), it's that a lot of the learning really does come with experience. Offer to help her out on the campaign if she wants, but leave her in the driver's seat.

Funkyodor
2007-09-14, 08:09 AM
Ummm... Unsure of what to say...

Normally Rogue types and Monk types synergy well together. If the Rogue/Monk and Bard/Barbarian/Rogue feel a little left out, maybe get them to act as a team to take out stragglers, or just one at a time. Get the B/B/R to delay his action to after the R/M so that (hopefully) R/M stuns, then B/B/R sneak attacks away. The enemy has 2 targets to choose from, and if he runs... Fat chance running away from a Monk. The goal is to get them to work as a Duo, like Robin and Robin to everyone elses Batmen & Supermen.

OP's had it right with Don't always summon the Dire Wolf, there are alot of other critters you can grab. Write up some summonable critters on 3x5 note cards and when you cast one of the summon spells, just grab a random card (minus Dire Wolf). Do it flippantly right and she shouldn't be too upset with random chance if things go good for the critter.

NamelessArchon
2007-09-14, 08:29 AM
The problem with a druid core is that they mostly have utility and minor support spells, like bulls strength and spider climb.Magic Fang? Barkskin? Your sub-par monk just became a better fighter with better armor. Tack on a Bull's Strength, Owl's Wisdom, and/or Cat's Grace, and your MAD (multiple ability dependent) monk will get some serious bonuses to what they're doing. Durations are a problem, in some cases, and at low levels you'd burn a few spells on buffs that go to waste.

If you're in it for the fun, use spells like Jump in conjunction with barkskin and magic fang on the monk and encourage him to make with the flying kicks!

You might also consider taking the feat for miscellaneous magic item creation. Slippers of Jump, Gloves of Magic Fang, Vestments of Strength... even without going hogwild on the whole list of item feats, you can create a lot of miscellaneous items that can add greatly to your party's success (and fun) and then give them out as gifts when they help you "support nature's causes". For example: Ask the monk how he'd like a permanant bonus to the jump skill after you cast Jump on him just once in the above setting, or how the rogues would like a boost to DEX or STR after tasting a Cat's Grace or Bull's Strength. Lucky bracelets? (+1 to all rolls!?!one!1!!)

If your party has UMD-types in it (and I see two rogues!) you could start in with the wand crafting too - basic curative (cure light wounds) or buff wands (Bull's Strength, Barkskin) would spread out your party's support more, and allow your spells-per-day to be used for more wolves, while your wand-buffed party members are wreaking their own havoc instead of being left out. All of that item creation can get expensive, so consider talking with the DM privately, and seeing if you can work out a means to create items (even if only a few) using the "power components" option from the DMs guide to lessen the XP hit you take, lest you lag behind your party.

Otherwise, I'd focus less on "destroying the enemy myself" and more on "helping the party to destroy the enemy with their own abilities". Use weaker summoned creatures to set up flanking (sneak attack) opportunities for the rogues, for example. SA damage will add up fast if you position the critter right.

I'd look for ways I could put my own skills to work "behind the scenes" and step back out of the spotlight for a while, let the other players have a chance to show off what they can do (with some judicious situation manipulation by you on their behalf).

Dausuul
2007-09-14, 10:12 AM
I played a druid once. Had the exact same problem--I made the rest of the party irrelevant without even meaning to. Druids are broken, no two ways about it.

The only solution I could come up with that I felt was reasonable was to scrap the druid and make a new character. I recommend a cleric specializing in buffing spells, with sub-par physical stats so you don't stray into CoDzilla territory. Plan your build around Making Other PCs Better. That should deal with the intra-party issues; let them share in the benefits of your optimization and they'll quit complaining. Then the DM can adjust encounter CR to match the party's buffed-up power level.

Hario
2007-09-14, 10:16 AM
I played a druid once. Had the exact same problem--I made the rest of the party irrelevant without even meaning to. Druids are broken, no two ways about it.

The only solution I could come up with that I felt was reasonable was to scrap the druid and make a new character. I recommend a cleric specializing in buffing spells, with sub-par physical stats so you don't stray into CoDzilla territory. Plan your build around Making Other PCs Better. That should deal with the intra-party issues; let them share in the benefits of your optimization and they'll quit complaining. Then the DM can adjust encounter CR to match the party's buffed-up power level.

I've played buffbot and heal bot cleric's they aren't really fun unless you find obscure spells from other books (this is mostly core campaign) and I know all the buff spells for cleric in core, it ain't pretty but 70pct of them are self buff :/

Hyfigh
2007-09-14, 10:16 AM
Maybe take her aside, outside of the campaign, and give her a few pointers. Explain that you aren't even playing your druid to its full potential and that she needs to send tougher critters your way.

Crow
2007-09-14, 10:22 AM
The problem with being comedy relief is that there is a gnomish bard/barbarian/rogue who tries to be the comedy relief when he has no party role or anything, It just happends the only ones in the party that can do damage, are the Paladin, the evocationist sorcerer, and myself. So the Rogue (1)/Monk (4) and the gnome don't do any real damage or have any real party role. I guess the monk could tank but he doesn't do it, ever. I try to give the newbie players tips on being more effective, though that prolly gets on her nerves too :smallsigh: . I guess I could just keep preparing buffs for the Paladin and sit into longer combat (the Paladin doesn't think I'm all that broken, its the monk who attacked my dire wolf, who felt its wrath, who thinks I'm broken) The problem with a druid core is that they mostly have utility and minor support spells, like bulls strength and spider climb.

Hopefully you didn't miss my other points of advice;

Play casually. Help your teammates (as others have said). Just sit back and enjoy the game.

Dausuul
2007-09-14, 10:24 AM
I've played buffbot and heal bot cleric's they aren't really fun unless you find obscure spells from other books (this is mostly core campaign) and I know all the buff spells for cleric in core, it ain't pretty but 70pct of them are self buff :/

Hmm. What about a bard, then? Bards have substantial buffing capability, and they aren't inherently unbalanced the way the Power Three (cleric/druid/wizard) are.

Hario
2007-09-14, 10:29 AM
Hmm. What about a bard, then? Bards have substantial buffing capability, and they aren't inherently unbalanced the way the Power Three (cleric/druid/wizard) are.
he's a 2 barbarian/ 1 rogue/ 1 bard he gives people a +1 with inspire courage, not really all that useful at lvl 5, though technically is a party role, he doesn't have a set use

lord_khaine
2007-09-14, 11:29 AM
i think he was suggesting you play a bard instead.