The Rich Brat or The Naked Veteran

[JNAProductions]

Just a little thought experiment.

Would you rather have, in your party, a level 20 Fighter that has absolutely no equipment, or a level 1 Fighter that has pretty much any five non-artifact, non-sentient magic items?

With a caveat-you cannot just murder the level 1 Fighter and steal his gear. It's bound to his soul, and so is useless to anyone else.

[DeTess]

I'd pick the level 20 in most situations. In 5e, levels generally trump gear, assuming I could get some basic arms and armor fairly soon, but even if I'm left to rely on my fists, the only things giving me trouble that wouldn't annihilate the level 1 would be quick things attacking from range.

[Ganymede]

What are their personalities?

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, I'm in agreement.

I was gonna set it up as a PvP challenge, but I remembered that D&D isn't really about PvP.


What are their personalities?

This is a mechanical thread.

The title is just a joke-assume that each character is played by a nice person and experienced roleplayer, who will do their best to make the game more fun, not less.

[RSP]

For what purpose? If using xp for leveling, the lvl 1 will level quickly, decreasing any advantages of the level 20. And the level 1 is presumably using all their attunement so it’s not like they’ll be grabbing magic items found as they already have the 5 best for them. Meanwhile, the level 20 will have a great claim to why they should get any item useful to them (as they don’t have any and are carrying the effectiveness of a level 20 character).

If it’s just a 1-shot, let’s dungeon crawl! Then the level 20 works better; if a campaign with characters moving through levels and gaining levels, the level 1 works better.

[Ganymede]

This is a mechanical thread.

The title is just a joke-assume that each character is played by a nice person and experienced roleplayer, who will do their best to make the game more fun, not less.

Ohh, well then I'd probably shoo them both away. It sounds like both characters would steal a lot of the thunder away from the average party. It doesn't sound very fun for everyone if one character is doing all of the heavy lifting.

[Unoriginal]

Just a little thought experiment.

Would you rather have, in your party, a level 20 Fighter that has absolutely no equipment, or a level 1 Fighter that has pretty much any five non-artifact, non-sentient magic items?

With a caveat-you cannot just murder the level 1 Fighter and steal his gear. It's bound to his soul, and so is useless to anyone else.

In which context? As a PC? As a NPC to accompany us for one mission? For the whole campaign? Just for the boss battle?.

[JNAProductions]

In which context? As a PC? As a NPC to accompany us for one mission? For the whole campaign? Just for the boss battle?.

Let's say for a single adventure. A dangerous dungeon crawl to get the MacGuffin.

And as a full-fledged party member to fight alongside you. Controlled by the DM or a Player is irrelevant, since again, this is more mechanical than RP.

[Kaliayev]

A rich brat with five iron horns of valhalla.

[Ganymede]

Let's say for a single adventure. A dangerous dungeon crawl to get the MacGuffin.

And as a full-fledged party member to fight alongside you. Controlled by the DM or a Player is irrelevant, since again, this is more mechanical than RP.

Well they would both make for an interesting dungeon delve. I mean, which makes for a more fun story, a skilled warrior fist-fighting monsters with his wang out, or a walking arsenal saturating the dungeon with wand of wonder charges and prismatic sprays?

[Unoriginal]

This is a mechanical thread.



Let's say for a single adventure. A dangerous dungeon crawl to get the MacGuffin.

And as a full-fledged party member to fight alongside you. Controlled by the DM or a Player is irrelevant, since again, this is more mechanical than RP.

Mechanically speaking, there is no ensemble of 5 non-artifact magic items that can make a level 1 trumps 20 levels in a class, be it in survival capacity, utility, or combat prowesses.

As a lvl 1 fighter, we're talking about 10-to-15 HPs. They can die with one lucky shot. With a ton of magic items, they'd maybe require 2-3 lucky shots before dying. This alone makes them outclassed, because being that likely to die in a dangerous dungeon makes you a bad investment compared to the HPs of a lvl 20 Fighter.


Well they would both make for an interesting dungeon delve. I mean, which makes for a more fun story, a skilled warrior fist-fighting monsters with his wang out, or a walking arsenal saturating the dungeon with wand of wonder charges and prismatic sprays?

Well, both adventuring with Beowulf or with Iron Man would be fun stories

[Ganymede]

Well, both adventuring with Beowulf or with Iron Man would be fun stories

I love it!

[Angelalex242]

The level 20, probably.

The Level 1's gonna lose on saving throws, eventually. All those magic items can't raise his saves by any more than +3 or so.

Even if his AC is stupid high.

I mean, let's see...

Assume the kid has +3 Plate, +3 Shield, Vorpal Sword, Belt of Giant Strength (Storm), maybe a cloak of displacement.

Throw in an Oathbow for ranged attacks, I guess.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The level 20, probably.

The Level 1's gonna lose on saving throws, eventually. All those magic items can't raise his saves by any more than +3 or so.

Even if his AC is stupid high.

I mean, let's see...

Assume the kid has +3 Plate, +3 Shield, Vorpal Sword, Belt of Giant Strength (Storm), maybe a cloak of displacement.

Throw in an Oathbow for ranged attacks, I guess.

Assuming standard array, that level 1 kid attacks (with the sword) at +14 (+9 STR +2 Proficiency +3 magic item) 1x/turn for 1d8 + 12 (+14 if he has dueling). Base DPR (before considering accuracy or crits): 18.5. His HP would be 12, his AC would be 26 (and attacks against him at disadvantage). He also has his base Second Wind (1d10+1), but no action surge.

The level 20 (if you give him a longsword) attacks at +11 (+5 STR, +6 Proficiency) 4x/turn for 1d8 + 5 (+7 if he has dueling). Base DPR (before accuracy or crits): 11.5*4 = 46. And his damage is much more stable (since he gets 4 attacks/round instead of 1). His HP would be...much higher, 150-ish depending on where he put his CON. If he maxed it, he'd have 224. With base equipment, he'd have an AC of 18. And he can action surge 2x/day, second wind for 1d10 + 20, and has indomitable. And that's not counting archetype features.

Consider facing an ancient dragon. The weakest has an ATK of 14 (hitting the level 1 on a 12 or the level 20 on a 4). He does, on average, 137.8 DPR (using the DMG calculation method). Of note--his breath weapon will insta-kill the level 1 on a successful save, dealing 72 damage on average (36 halved > 24). Even at minimum damage, it will knock him to zero if he fails the save. Any of his damaging abilities will knock the level 1 to zero if they hit.

And at CR 20, that's a medium encounter for a party of 4 level 20s. You should be able to face several of those in a day.

In short--take the level 20. Without a doubt.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, Beowulf definitively beats Iron Man, mechanically speaking.

[Temperjoke]

Hypothetically speaking, if the rich brat dies (and I realize we can't take his gear), could the party reanimate him as a fully equipped skeleton?

[Lord Vukodlak]

People are thinking about this all wrong assuming the rich brat should help by directly fighting the enemy rather then in a support/buff role.
Say four rings of three wishes and one ring of invisibility so he can stay hidden.

[Luccan]

In 5e? Level 20, no question. There's not really a reliance on gear this edition.

[dejarnjc]

The level 1 so we could just kill him and take his shiny magic items or use him as fodder and get his magic items from the monsters that kill him.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The level 1 so we could just kill him and take his shiny magic items or use him as fodder and get his magic items from the monsters that kill him.

That was foreclosed by the OP--the gear is bound to his soul. No one else can use that gear. Otherwise that's the best option for evil people.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The level 1 so we could just kill him and take his shiny magic items or use him as fodder and get his magic items from the monsters that kill him.
Already stated that doesn’t work. They’re bound to his soul no one else can use them.

Edit: Damn ninja’d

[strangebloke]

People are thinking about this all wrong assuming the rich brat should help by directly fighting the enemy rather then in a support/buff role.
Say four rings of three wishes and one ring of invisibility so he can stay hidden.

This is my thought as well. Especially because the scope is so small, expendable items are crazy good. 12 wishes will roll any adventuring day.

[Unoriginal]

This is my thought as well. Especially because the scope is so small, expendable items are crazy good. 12 wishes will roll any adventuring day.

OP never said it was a single adventuring day.

What would you wish for, though?

[Lord Vukodlak]

OP never said it was a single adventuring day.

Let's say for a single adventure. A dangerous dungeon crawl to get the MacGuffin..




What would you wish for, though?
Depends on the situation which is why it’s four rings of wish and a ring of invisibility instead of five rings of wish.
A single wish can make ten creatures resistant to a single damage type permanently. So three wishes and the party is resistant to bludgeoning, slashing and piercing damage.

With 12 wishes you’d be resistant to all damage types but one.

Another prime use of wish
“You allow up to twenty creatures that you can see to regain all Hit Points, and you end all effects on them described in the Greater Restoration spell.”

[Unoriginal]

A single adventure =/= one adventuring day. Nor is a dangerous dungeon crawl one adventuring day.

They could be, I've seen stuff go that fast, but oftentime it is longer.

[No brains]

If someone has a ring of three wishes and wishes for an effect that doesn't replicate a spell, do they run the risk of being unable to cast wish ever again? If that's the case, wouldn't that mean the ring ends up being a ring of ~1 wishes?

[MaxWilson]

I guess my objection to the idea of abusing the rich brat's hypothetical Rings of Wishes is that blowing all of his wishes on permanent buffs for you and your buddies seems like kind of a jerk move. (Also, the buffs are still subject to Dispel Magic AFAIK--they're "permanent", not "instantaneous".)

A bunch of Horns of Valhalla is a pretty neat idea though. Even a single Horn of Valhalla is incredibly powerful IME and can turn looming TPKs into cakewalks.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I guess my objection to the idea of abusing the rich brat's hypothetical Rings of Wishes is that blowing all of his wishes on permanent buffs for you and your buddies seems like kind of a jerk move. (Also, the buffs are still subject to Dispel Magic AFAIK--they're "permanent", not "instantaneous".)
The duration of wish is instantaneous I don’t think the resistance buffs can be dispelled.

In a any event my bringing up the wishes was intended as the most extreme example. A single iron horn of Valhalla is probably more valuable then a naked 20th level fighter.

[MaxWilson]

The duration of wish is instantaneous I don’t think the resistance buffs can be dispelled.

*reviews spell text* Okay, I think I buy that argument.

So it's a really strong move from a pure power standpoint, but I still think I'd take the 20th level guy over the rings-of-wish guy just because I'd feel like less of a exploitative jerk that way. I could imagine taking the Horns of Valhalla guy with a single Ring of Wish for emergencies, but only if my party had good ways to keep him safe (high-level Aid spells, Death Ward, etc.).

[Slayn82]

What is our party level? Supposing around lvl 9 - 12, raising a lvl 1 guy to our level will be doable, and the danger is somewhat manageable with spells like Sanctuary, Polymorph, Resilient Sphere, Banishment. Make him blow the horn of Valhalla, then take him away, until he closes with the rest of the team. Meanwhile, the Naked Veteran is roughly on par with the other team members on DPS with any spare non magical gear.

[Hecuba]

Just a little thought experiment.

Would you rather have, in your party, a level 20 Fighter that has absolutely no equipment, or a level 1 Fighter that has pretty much any five non-artifact, non-sentient magic items?

With a caveat-you cannot just murder the level 1 Fighter and steal his gear. It's bound to his soul, and so is useless to anyone else.

The level 20 fighter has enough ASI/feat slots that they can probably out-contribute the level 1 Fighter, even naked. If the level of the adventure were low enough that I though I would be able to keep him alive, I might still take the level 1 - it would be at least somewhat less disruptive.

But that becomes a spotty proposition early on: by the late single digits of levels, I'd feel the need to dump all 5 magic items into defensive options and hope that he also has the option to ignore the attunement limit. I'd probably go overly defensive: a good luck stone, a luck blade, a ring of protection, a cloak of protection, a spellguard shield. Look for mundane plate armor & longbow. +4 to saves, advantage vs spells, +2 to hit, +2 to skill rolls, AC 22. I would make him a V.Human and spend the feat on Lucky. Stay back and plink at things, try not to die.

Burn your luck blade wishes if your party needs you to actually contribute.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Rich brat, hands down. Magic items are hard to come by, while experience really isn't. Provided that they survive an encounter that they couldn't without all that equipment, they'll shoot up in level fast enough to close that gap much faster than the level 20 veteran could reasonably find suitable gear.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Rich brat, hands down. Magic items are hard to come by, while experience really isn't. Provided that they survive an encounter that they couldn't without all that equipment, they'll shoot up in level fast enough to close that gap much faster than the level 20 veteran could reasonably find suitable gear.

Counterpoint, if the veteran is going through content of your level (presumably a middle point between 1 and 20) any gear you could get him to use would be reasonable considering how capable he would be, heck just give him your own gear and he'd make better use of it almost all the time.

With that said, I feel it would be more fair to the experiment (or potentially make it a no brainer decision) to also limit the veteran to not accepting handout items, seeing as the idea that you can just gear him up to nullify the trade off is along the same lines of killing the rich kid and taking his stuff. You're cutting off the downside to make it seem like an easier decision.

[MaxWilson]

Rich brat, hands down. Magic items are hard to come by, while experience really isn't. Provided that they survive an encounter that they couldn't without all that equipment, they'll shoot up in level fast enough to close that gap much faster than the level 20 veteran could reasonably find suitable gear.

According to post #8 though it's only for a single adventure, so advancement won't be a factor unless the DM does mid-adventure XP handouts + level advancement.

...which, I guess, is not actually against 5E rules.

[Joe the Rat]

The level 20. Unless he's got a geas that says no taking gear from the dead, he's gonna be modestly armed and armored after the first humanoid encounter. Unless you take Tavern Brawler, in which case he's armed after the first room. Even if it is just a rat flail.

Plus he's got the durability. 13 hp is a narrow buffer between awesome magic toys and puff of smoke.

If you do take the level One, I'd borrow an idea and do four iron horns of valhalla and a cube of force. That way he can hide safely away while his summons do the dirty work. I recommend the Noble background here.

[Mellack]

I'd take the level 20. Gear is not all that important in this edition, and he can easily grab stuff to become armed and armored, at least reasonably. The cost of basic equipment is so low that the others wouldn't notice the cost if at town. If out in the wilderness, there are still enemies he can get them from or group abilities that can be used for him. For example, the fighter can become a giant ape or T-Rex by a polymorph, the level 1 can't. Toss them a Barkskin. The fighter can grapple. Unless you make some rule that they have to stay naked and unassisted, it is easy to get the fighter decent stuff. This is assuming the rest of the party is at least mid-level.

[Lord Vukodlak]

It’s the naked fighter if he picks up any equipment he ceases to be the naked fighter and thus ceases to exist.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Either tbh. They'd both come with their own challenges. Though in a game without magical restrictions on the fighter i.e. has to stay naked, he'd probably be the better choice.

Naked Fighter
Tabaxi
Fighter (Cavalier)
20 14 16 8 14 9
Feats:
Magic initiate Warlock: Hex, Create Bonfire, Booming Blade
Mobile: hey now we can move 80' in a round and hit things.
Sentinel: Could be replaced by something else, but also gives us a use for our actual reaction.
Resilient Wisdom: between indomitable and this now we don't need to worry to much about our naked ally.

It's basically a monk tbh. at the start of any combat it can move 80' in hex something and then hit it 8 times for 8d4+8d6+40 damage, it can then move out of range or move to a place where it can start getting opportunity attacks if things move away.

After building this I kind of want to play it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rich Brat
Human Variant: lucky
stats don't matter too much.

Iron Horn of Valhalla
Ring of spell storing: animate objects or conjure animals
Cube of force
Cloak of invisibility.
Armor of invulnerability.