How legit are scrolls of accelerated progression classes?

[sorcererlover]

Whenever artificer is mentioned someone somewhere always mention the divine crusader, ur-priest, and sublime chord for its lower caster level higher level spells. So how legit are these scrolls?

To me they sound like that unearthed arcana transmutation wizard scrolls. You know, where that wizard variant can turn every single spell into a transmutation spell and therefore all wizards can buy these scrolls and put them into their spellbook as transmutation spells therefore as long as you don't have transmutation banned all spells are available to you.

But then on second look, unlike that wizard which is in a book of house and variant rules, these three classes are in the complete books which are official, not obscure, and are one of the most included books.

So... are they TO? High op? low op?

[Yuki Akuma]

They're completely RAW if you're using those supplements - they aren't called out as optional variant rules like the stuff in Unearthed Arcana. If you're playing with Dungeonscape allowed, then the Trapsmith's level 1 haste exists.

Of course, DMs are fine to restrict players to only using a subset of RAW, or even houserules. But if you assume everything from every book is available, then it's legit.

And also ridiculous.

Sidenote though: these tricks don't let Wizards scribe spells of the wrong school or level into his spellbook. They're not on the Wizard spell list - you have to be able to access "all arcane spells" or "all divine spells", or have a way to add arbitrary spells to your class list, for that to work.

[Jack_Simth]

Whenever artificer is mentioned someone somewhere always mention the divine crusader, ur-priest, and sublime chord for its lower caster level higher level spells. So how legit are these scrolls?

To me they sound like that unearthed arcana transmutation wizard scrolls. You know, where that wizard variant can turn every single spell into a transmutation spell and therefore all wizards can buy these scrolls and put them into their spellbook as transmutation spells therefore as long as you don't have transmutation banned all spells are available to you.

But then on second look, unlike that wizard which is in a book of house and variant rules, these three classes are in the complete books which are official, not obscure, and are one of the most included books.

So... are they TO? High op? low op?

High op, borderline TO. Such discussions are nearly never intended for actual games, which makes them TO - "theoretical", rather than "practical" - optimization. However, there's occasional games where such things get used, so they're borderline.

[Nifft]

Whenever artificer is mentioned someone somewhere always mention the divine crusader, ur-priest, and sublime chord for its lower caster level higher level spells. So how legit are these scrolls? They're as legit as Bard or Ranger or Paladin scrolls, which is to say they're legit if the class is allowed at all, but you can't use them to subvert the Wizard spell levels -- and you can't assume that they are available at your local WBL-mart.

Like a Bard could scribe a scroll of suggestion as a level 2 spell, and a Wizard could read that scroll, but if the Wizard wanted to scribe that spell into her spellbook she'd end up with suggestion in her book as a level 3 Wizard spell.


To me they sound like that unearthed arcana transmutation wizard scrolls. You know, where that wizard variant can turn every single spell into a transmutation spell and therefore all wizards can buy these scrolls and put them into their spellbook as transmutation spells therefore as long as you don't have transmutation banned all spells are available to you. That's just deliberately ignoring the distinction between character spell list and class spell list.

I mean, if one Wizard takes a feat to give herself access to one or more spells as Wizard spells, do you think all Wizards gain access to those spells at the same time, across all planes in the setting?

[gogogome]

Divine Crusader and Ur Priest is standard optimization. They are literally no different than using bards, rangers, or paladin's spell list for lower level spells. Domain spells are on no class's spell list so a PrC that uses only domain spells is far from just an optimization tool. Ur Priests are designed to let a cleric who lost all his spellcasting stay relevant so their accelerated spellcasting is mandatory, and clerics with scribe scroll is normal.

Sublime Chord however is Theoretical Optimization. Standard Sublime Chord is 7 levels of bard, so at best you get 9th level spells 1CL lower. Minimally acceptable sublime chords is 5 wizard, 1 bard, so the lowest CL you can get for 9ths is 14. I contemplated doing this when i was trying some kind of dip-tastic build that eventually got 9th level spells. Adding Sublime Chord to your 1 bard instead of 5 wizard however is something absolutely no one would do, ever, which is why a CL10 9th level spell is theoretical optimization.

So two are legit, one is not.

Now do DMs allow it? I personally do and haven't found it to be a problem. Gate trivializes encounters, but Gate always trivializes encounters. Time Stop doesn't trivialize encounters, and you're spending a lot of money and xp each time you're casting it. Save or Dies cast from scrolls are terrible due to their horrendous DC and now horrendous SR penetration. Miracle is always handy to have one and using it occasionally to save your ass is fine. Anyone who abuses higher level spells with scrolls as an artificer is going to run out of money and xp really quickly.

[Cosi]

Sidenote though: these tricks don't let Wizards scribe spells of the wrong school or level into his spellbook. They're not on the Wizard spell list - you have to be able to access "all arcane spells" or "all divine spells", or have a way to add arbitrary spells to your class list, for that to work.

First: by RAW, the Wizard is totally able to scribe any scroll into his spellbook. This was changed by the Rules Compendium, but if you aren't using that book, it is totally legal to scribe any scroll you decipher as a Wizard.

In any case, this is wrong, because those spells are still on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. Trapsmith haste isn't a different spell, it just has a different level. There's nothing stopping a Wizard from scribing haste from a Trapsmith scroll and casting it as a 1st level spell, just as there's nothing stopping a Wizard who gained the Magic domain somehow from casting identify as a 2nd level spell rather than a 1st level one if he happens to want to do that.

[Mike Miller]

Time Stop doesn't trivialize encounters, and you're spending a lot of money and xp each time you're casting it. .

Time Stop only has a verbal component. It is not costly.

[Kelb_Panthera]

People will tell you "yes" or "no" based on their own interpretation of things but the simple fact is that it's -highly- arguable in both directions.

I lean toward "available but rare," personally. You need to go out of your way if you want to get them at my table but I'm pretty "kitchen sink" as a DM.

[Yuki Akuma]

Time Stop only has a verbal component. It is not costly.

Crafting a scroll costs money and XP.

[blackwindbears]

Whenever artificer is mentioned someone somewhere always mention the divine crusader, ur-priest, and sublime chord for its lower caster level higher level spells. So how legit are these scrolls?

To me they sound like that unearthed arcana transmutation wizard scrolls. You know, where that wizard variant can turn every single spell into a transmutation spell and therefore all wizards can buy these scrolls and put them into their spellbook as transmutation spells therefore as long as you don't have transmutation banned all spells are available to you.

But then on second look, unlike that wizard which is in a book of house and variant rules, these three classes are in the complete books which are official, not obscure, and are one of the most included books.

So... are they TO? High op? low op?

Any game I ran the answer would be no.

But how would it be used? Can you buy a scroll of X made by some weird splatbook class for cheaper than a wizard one. Nope. Prices are set by the cost of the most common classes. (Because markets are real)

If an artificer were in my game they'd have to use the appearance of the spell from the class with the largest spell list.

(Also, my first instinct on prestige classes and splat classes is that they don't exist unless one of the PCs takes levels in it or I need it for an npc.)

[Mike Miller]

Crafting a scroll costs money and XP.

Yes but that wasn't what was being referenced. If so, it wasn't clear. Anyway, I feel like the original topic is likely to vary from table to table. For example, I wouldn't allow the accelerated scrolls at my table, but I wouldn't argue against a different DM using them.

[AnonymousPepper]

In all honesty I think y'all are greatly overestimating the cost of high-level scrolls for a properly-made artificer. 95% cost reduction is not unheard of, translating to a 191.25gp cost on a ninth-level scroll, and at that point, you're going to make a massive profit just from expected treasure from killing enemies with the aid of those scrolls, to say nothing of giving magic items the succ for XP and melting them down or selling them off for use as crafting materials (and thereby amping your gains even more).

[sleepyphoenixx]

They're legit as far as RAW goes, but relatively high-op. I'd consider restricting Artificers to base class spell lists only a valid move for any DM who is concerned about the power level.

Even if they're allowed in your campaign you shouldn't assume that you can buy them freely if you don't craft them yourself (which i've seen some people do).
Few members of those classes - who aren't exactly common in the first place - will take item creation feats after all. And Artificer scrolls are explicitly neither arcane nor divine, so they're useless for anyone who doesn't have UMD, which limits their marketability significantly.

In my campaigns wizard-made scrolls are the default, with cleric-made scrolls aside from the staples (Remove Disease, Restoration, Neutralize Poison etc.) available based on proximity to a temple of a god inclined that way (like FR's Oghma).

And really, making scrolls for sale is apprentice work. So you'll rarely find high level scrolls for sale at all.
You certainly won't find any scrolls of Wish lying in a shop somewhere. You only get those on commission, if at all.


In all honesty I think y'all are greatly overestimating the cost of high-level scrolls for a properly-made artificer. 95% cost reduction is not unheard of, translating to a 191.25gp cost on a ninth-level scroll, and at that point, you're going to make a massive profit just from expected treasure from killing enemies with the aid of those scrolls, to say nothing of giving magic items the succ for XP and melting them down or selling them off for use as crafting materials (and thereby amping your gains even more).
The problem is that you can only craft one scroll per day at most. 9th level scrolls take 4 days to craft (during which you can't make anything else), so your limit on using them as your staple in combat isn't money but downtime.
If you have several weeks of downtime between each encounter you can stock up, but otherwise you'll have to look for cheaper options to get through a campaign no matter how much you reduce costs.

[AnonymousPepper]

Fast-flowing time demiplanes are standard fare for high-level artificers too. Excuse me while I pop off to my arbitrarily fast plane and spend literally all my WBL before coming back one apparent round later (and sporting a full beard that I definitely didn't have when I plane-shifted out).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Fast-flowing time demiplanes are standard fare for high-level artificers too. Excuse me while I pop off to my arbitrarily fast plane and spend literally all my WBL before coming back one apparent round later (and sporting a full beard that I definitely didn't have when I plane-shifted out).

If you're playing at that level of optimization why are you still fighting the monsters yourself?

[OgresAreCute]

If you're playing at that level of optimization why are you still fighting the monsters yourself?

Morning workout routine?

[AnonymousPepper]

If you're playing at that level of optimization why are you still fighting the monsters yourself?

"If you want something done right, do it yourself." Sure, I could go allllllll the way and start pumping out simulacra of ice assassins of aleaxes of myself or whatever, something an artificer is perfectly capable of doing, but where's the fun in that?

Yeah, I'm going Goku on this.

[Crake]

Yes but that wasn't what was being referenced. If so, it wasn't clear. Anyway, I feel like the original topic is likely to vary from table to table. For example, I wouldn't allow the accelerated scrolls at my table, but I wouldn't argue against a different DM using them.

The first post literally references this in relation to crafting them as an artificer, so yes, it was what was being referenced? Scroll is literally in the title of the thread.

[RoboEmperor]

Are scrolls made by an Assassin legit? If the answer is yes, Divine Crusader is no different.

Virtually all spells scale off of caster level so getting one at severely lower caster level is hardly high-op. All blasting spells are worthless. Like everything else in d&d, there are a few niche options that are truly powerful like Polymorph Any Object, but again, everything in d&d when used in a certain way breaks the game.

[Mike Miller]

The first post literally references this in relation to crafting them as an artificer, so yes, it was what was being referenced? Scroll is literally in the title of the thread.

Ok, I have been misinterpreted multiple times now. My original quote was of (somebody I forget now) saying time stop had an expensive component. That was what I was talking about originally.

[Cosi]

Are scrolls made by an Assassin legit? If the answer is yes, Divine Crusader is no different.

Eh, I don't think that's necessarily true. Since the question isn't "is this RAW legal", I think it's fair to consider things as having some grey area. planar binding for one minion is fine. Stacking planar binding minions for a month isn't mechanically any different, but it's substantially less balanced.