That Damned Crab!

[Foeofthelance]

Help! I need to find this beastie right quick, where is it?

[Dr. Weasel]

Here it is: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a

[Foeofthelance]

Thank you.

[TheOOB]

Why do I get the feeling that a a party is about to be punished by a "level-appropriate" encounter?

[Flawless]

That beast is CR 3!?!

You just have to compare it to an ogre to see how overpowered it is.

[DracoDei]

Hmm... mindless, and no ranged attack(and no hide/move silently to get in close before detected to make up for that) compared to the ogre... but still I beleive you may have a point there. :smallsigh:

[F.H. Zebedee]

Maybe I should send your party flowers. Or at least the survivors.

Somebody's party must be the munchkins from hell.

[Flawless]

Hmm... mindless, and no ranged attack(and no hide/move silently to get in close before detected to make up for that) compared to the ogre... but still I beleive you may have a point there. :smallsigh:

True, but 66 hp? Ac 19? 2 attacks +10 with d8+9 damage each? Not to forget it's an awesome grapple-machine. One hit, and you're history (impr. grab).
The only chance for a low level party (level 3 or 4) I see, is if the terrain is highly in favour of the PCs (e.g. they can take it down with ranged attacks before it can close).

[InkEyes]

That thing does 13.489 average damage with one hit? An average level 3 fighter with 10 con only has 16-17 hp! The designer who made this creature must have been surrounded with insane munchkins, or possibly a sadist.

[GimliFett]

I thought it was pre-3.5. 'Parently I was wrong. Wow. There was a lot of cool stuff in the Far Corner of the World series, but that crab must be the broken-est thing in it.

[Fax Celestis]

Be warned: do not advance That Damn Crab under any circumstances. Or give it class levels. Or make it anthropomorphic and allow a player to play it.

Anthropomorphic Damn Crabs with levels in Monk into Reaping Mauler are vicious and terrifying.

[Citizen Joe]

You know, its getting to be Stone Crab season in these parts... You just break off one claw and throw the crab back.

[Spiryt]

I thought it was pre-3.5. 'Parently I was wrong. Wow. There was a lot of cool stuff in the Far Corner of the World series, but that crab must be the broken-est thing in it.

I would give it CR 5. Or maybe 6, but I'm not good at it. Then it should be OK.
Beacuse it's quite impressive giant crab...

I could talk about it's grapple modifier, Constitution score, and Powerful Claws (Ex), but much simpler question is - since when any 7HD monsters are CR3 ?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Guys, guys, the crab isn't that hard. You just have to hit its weak point FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE!

Out of curiosity, what would an appropriate CR for this thing be? It's not inherently broken, I think, just its HP and attack/damage are too high for the CR. Monster designer people, what would you say is a better CR? 4, 5, 6?

Crab-ninja'd!

[Fax Celestis]

Vorpal Tribble's CR Calculation Method gives it a high 6, low 7 CR.

[GimliFett]

I'd agree with a CR 5. A carcass crab, from Eberron Campaign Setting, is Huge, has 12 HD and is CR 8. CC has poison barbs, a bite and adhesive, so maybe a CR 4, then.

[bosssmiley]

That thing does 13.489 average damage with one hit? An average level 3 fighter with 10 con only has 16-17 hp! The designer who made this creature must have been surrounded with insane munchkins, or possibly a sadist.

Level 3 fighter with a Con of 10 and 16-17hp?
I don't entirely think it's the crab that's at fault here. :smallconfused:

That said, a CR of 3 for an aquatic grappler (Go! Super Drowning Skills! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperDrowningSkills)) with those specs is a little b0rked. 4 maybe. 3? Naaaah.

[Citizen Joe]

I think they may have been comparing it to a Monstrous Scorpion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm)
But if you compare it to a much weaker Giant Stag Beetle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantStagBeetle.htm) with a HIGHER CR you can see that something was falling apart in the CR calculations.

[Dausuul]

Level 3 fighter with a Con of 10 and 16-17hp?
I don't entirely think it's the crab that's at fault here. :smallconfused:

That said, a CR of 3 for an aquatic grappler (Go! Super Drowning Skills! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperDrowningSkills)) with those specs is a little b0rked. 4 maybe. 3? Naaaah.

An extremely strong aquatic grappler. A level 3 character who's built for grappling might have a +12 grapple modifier--and that's with Strength 20, Improved Grapple, and full BAB. This thing has +19! And none of the usual anti-grapple tricks are available at third level. Once it hits you, it's got you and you're not getting away, and two rounds of being squoze in one of those claws will kill just about any third-leveler. The ability to dive underwater and drown you is just icing on the cake.

With a +10 to hit on its claw attacks, it's got pretty good odds of snagging two enemies on the first round. Game over, man.

Remember that a CR 3 should be an easy fight for a 3rd-level party, not an even match. An even match (50% chance for the battle to go either way) would be CR 7. This thing is a walking TPK.

[Citizen Joe]

AND it moves at 40', so you can't even run away.

[Kaerou]

Guys, guys, the crab isn't that hard. You just have to hit its weak point FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE!


It is based on real japanese History (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2g1fr5vk72M&feature=PlayList&p=7FD16F7890E76436&index=9) =) This video will teach you how! (hint: flip it on its back)


And none of the usual anti-grapple tricks are available at third level.

Theres Grease, enlarge person. Still, even with those you still dont want to get in a grapple.

[The_Werebear]

The only way I could think of for handling this thing involves Alter self for wings and sniping at it with ranged attacks.

[GimliFett]

The only way I could think of for handling this thing involves Alter self for wings and sniping at it with ranged attacks.

I have a better idea if you're 3rd level. Don't wake it up and just leave. Quietly. Praying silently the whole time to whatever being you wish for help. :smallbiggrin:

[Citizen Joe]

Yea, if it's CR 3, it isn't worth the experience compared to the danger. I don't think they have much treasure either. So about the only reason to attack one is if it is stone crab season and you want its claw.

Enlarge person helps because it can only use improved grab on creatures smaller than itself. But even just basic claw damage is gonna hurt.

I'm not sure how to do it, but the trick is to get it to grapple with two things that it can't damage. With its claws tied up, you can beat on it at your leisure. The trick is getting that at 3rd level.

[Dausuul]

In fact, I just realized that it's even worse than I thought, because it deals constrict damage on the same round that it starts the grapple. So each pincer actually deals 2d8+18 damage on the first hit. That's an average of 27. A third-level fighter with an 18 Con is only going to average 33 hit points...

[GimliFett]

Maybe if you made an illusion of an ogre that attacks it, so it gets grabbed in the pincer and... Oh, yeah. Mindless.

If a 3rd-level sorcerer/wizard could cast magic missile 11 times, it'd average to about 66 points of damage. You could do it from a hole somewhere where it can't get to you. Who'm I kidding? This thing's just not a CR 3. Really, you probably need 3rd level spells to deal with it, so make it a CR 5. It'd still take 2 fireballs maxed, plus some additional damage to bring down. That sounds better.

[Dausuul]

If a 3rd-level sorcerer/wizard could cast magic missile 11 times, it'd average to about 66 points of damage. You could do it from a hole somewhere where it can't get to you. Who'm I kidding? This thing's just not a CR 3. Really, you probably need 3rd level spells to deal with it, so make it a CR 5. It'd still take 2 fireballs maxed, plus some additional damage to bring down. That sounds better.

CR 5? You think ONE fifth-level character would have a fifty-fifty shot at beating this thing?

It really is CR 7, minimum.

[GimliFett]

CR 5? You think ONE fifth-level character would have a fifty-fifty shot at beating this thing?

It really is CR 7, minimum.

Given proper preparation, yes. But CR is based on a party of 4. I can see 4 5th-level characters defeating this with only some difficulty, but not major ones.

[Citizen Joe]

Grease on a character gives them +10 on their grapple checks to avoid a grapple. Level 3 fighter with 18 str would have +7 normally to this check... so 3 point advantage to crab still. Improved grapple would give you +4 for a 1 point advantage on the character, but it would take 2 feats to get it.

Enlarge person bypasses the whole free grapple thing (must be smaller than large), plus eliminates the AoO from moving through the reach zone. It also lasts MUCH longer than grease.

All of this assumes that you know you will be fighting said crab. If you stumble into it, you're screwed.

Someone should do an arena battle with a monstrous crab so people can test out their theories. 4 characters ECL 3, WBL (no one item more than half), have knowledge that you're up against this crab...

[lord_khaine]

the case is that even when you know what you are up against, and actualy make the party to face it there is a decent chance someone dies, whatever they were smoking when this monster was created must have been some expensive ****.

[Jacob Orlove]

How can you guys have a thread on that crab and not link to FrankTrollman's rant?

It's awesome. (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=433&postnum=0&highlight=Giant%20Crab) (warning: profanity).

The only solid tactics against it involve getting out of melee range entirely. If you can climb some trees, or fly, or even just levitate, awesome. Otherwise, you're dead.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

You know, this would make for one hell of a mount at higher levels of play. Imagine the looks on the players' faces when a full cavalry of giant crabs crawls out of the ocean after them.

[Fax Celestis]

You know, this would make for one hell of a mount at higher levels of play. Imagine the looks on the players' faces when a full cavalry of giant crabs crawls out of the ocean after them.

Awesome. Put, say, Aboleth psions on their backs.

[kjones]

You know, this would make for one hell of a mount at higher levels of play. Imagine the looks on the players' faces when a full cavalry of giant crabs crawls out of the ocean after them.

You, sir, consist entirely of win.

This just made my day.

[InkEyes]

Level 3 fighter with a Con of 10 and 16-17hp?
I don't entirely think it's the crab that's at fault here. :smallconfused:


I was going for a totally average character. I figured since 10 is 'average' for a stat, and the average roll for a 1d10 is 5.5, the average hp for a level 3 fighter would be 16-17 depending on how you round. Sure a fighter will probably put one of his higher numbers in con, and may have amazing luck with his dice, but even if he has 42 hp (maxed every roll+18 con) would feel some serious ouch with two successful hits of average damage (13*2=26.) That's still over half the fighter's hp in one turn.

Edit: D'oh forgot about that durn max hp at fist level. Cookies to anyone who caught that. :smallsmile:

[Mike_Lemmer]

You know, this would make for one hell of a mount at higher levels of play. Imagine the looks on the players' faces when a full cavalry of giant crabs crawls out of the ocean after them.

Well, depending on just how high-level they were, it would either be "Holy **** that's awesome" or "Get out the rope, boys, we're hogtying the GM to the ceiling fan."

[tainsouvra]

I was going for a totally average character. I figured since 10 is 'average' for a stat, and the average roll for a 1d10 is 5.5, the average hp for a level 3 fighter would be 16-17 depending on how you round. Don't forget max HP at level 1.

[goat]

I was going for a totally average character. I figured since 10 is 'average' for a stat, and the average roll for a 1d10 is 5.5, the average hp for a level 3 fighter would be 16-17 depending on how you round.

Yeah, but he'd have got 10 at first level, so his average would be more like 21.

[AslanCross]

CRAB BATTLE!


Hmm... mindless *snip*

Isn't mindlessness actually an advantage? Makes them immune to a whole lot of stuff and doesn't really penalize them apart from not receiving skills and feats. I believe there was a caption in a Monster Manual that said mindlessness is actually seen as something that makes the creature stronger (much like a construct's lack of CON).

[Jacob Orlove]

And his "ranged attack" consists of an 80' charge + 10' reach.

[Gralamin]

Hmm, how much damage does this thing actually do per round?

Lets say we have a fighter with a suit of plate mail, a greatsword, and dodge why not. He has an AC of 20. Lets give him a strength of 18. That is a +7 to grapple. Lets give it a Constitution of say 14, giving him about 27 hp.

The crab has +12 to hit (Charging), meaning it hits on a 8 or higher, giving it a 60% hit rate.

Each attack deals 1d8+9, which averages to 13.5 damage. Due to the to hit rate, it actually deals an average of 8.1 Damage.

8.1 Damage a round from the claw. The fighter has a +7 (average 17.5), compared to the crabs +19 (average 29.5) The crab has about a 93% chance to grapple the fighter. This means that the chance of hit and grapple on the fighter is about a 55.8% chance. This means it deals on average 7.53 constrict damage a turn.

Each turn, the fighter can expect to lose 15.5 hp. The poor bloke is going to be good as dead in two rounds.

I may of screwed up on something. If you notice anything, let me know.

edit:
Full Attack
It makes two attacks at +10, giving it a 50% chance with each. This means the average damage will be 13.5.
In addition, it still can grapple, meaning an extra 7.53 a turn.
A full attack on average will deal about 21 damage.

edit 2: fixed errors.

[Green Bean]

Hmm, how much damage does this thing actually do per round?

Lets say we have a fighter with a suit of plate mail, a greatsword, and dodge why not. He has an AC of 20. Lets give him a strength of 18. That is a +7 to grapple. Lets give it a Constitution of say 14, giving him about 27 hp.

The crab has +12 to hit, meaning it hits on a 8 or higher, giving it a 60% hit rate.

Each attack deals 1d8+9, which averages to 13.5 damage. Due to the to hit rate, it actually deals an average of 8.1 Damage.

8.1 Damage a round from the claw. The fighter has a +7 (average 17.5), compared to the crabs +19 (average 29.5) The crab has about a 60% chance to grapple the fighter. This means that the chance of hit and grapple on the fighter is about a 36% chance. This means it deals on average 4.86 constrict damage a turn.

Each turn, the fighter can expect to lose almost 13 hp. The poor bloke is going to be dead in 3 rounds.

I may of screwed up on something. If you notice anything, let me know.

Doesn't the crab get two attacks per round?

[Fax Celestis]

Isn't mindlessness actually an advantage? Makes them immune to a whole lot of stuff and doesn't really penalize them apart from not receiving skills and feats. I believe there was a caption in a Monster Manual that said mindlessness is actually seen as something that makes the creature stronger (much like a construct's lack of CON).

It certainly does.

I threw an advanced version at some of my players (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48890), and--using natural crab hunting tactics--nearly killed them all.

The creature, as it appeared in this instance, was as follows
ADVANCED HUGE MONSTROUS CRAB (CR 8)
N Huge vermin (aquatic)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, Listen +0, Spot +4
AC 22, touch 8, flat-footed 22
hp 107 (16 HD)
Immune mind-affecting effects
Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +5
Spd 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee claw +18 (2d6+8) or
Melee 2 claws +18 (2d6+8)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +12; Grp +32
Atk Options constrict 4d6+8, improved grab
Abilities Str 26, Dex 11, Con 14, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2
SQ amphibious
Feats ToughnessB
Skills Hide –4, Spot +4

Amphibious (Ex): Although an advanced Huge monstrous crab is aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land.

Constrict (Ex): An advanced Huge monstrous crab deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an advanced Huge monstrous crab must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

...which was totally not CR 8. VT's CR Calculation, as linked earlier in this very thread, puts it at CR 10, by itself.

[Gralamin]

Doesn't the crab get two attacks per round?

On full attacks yes. My base one was charging. I've now included Full attack. (I'm glad this thing doesn't have pounce...)

[AslanCross]

The creature, as it appeared in this instance, was as follows
ADVANCED HUGE MONSTROUS CRAB (CR 8)
[/spoiler]

Ouch, that thing's brutal. >_o

[Dausuul]

The crab has about a 60% chance to grapple the fighter.

No, the crab is virtually guaranteed to grapple the fighter. The crab has a +19, the fighter has a +7. Let's look at the possibilities:

Crab rolls 8 or higher: Fighter cannot win.
Crab rolls 7: Fighter needs a natural 20.
Crab rolls 6: Fighter needs a 19-20.
Crab rolls 5: Fighter needs an 18-20.
Crab rolls 4: Fighter needs a 17-20.
Crab rolls 3: Fighter needs a 16-20.
Crab rolls 2: Fighter needs a 15-20.
Crab rolls 1: Fighter needs a 14-20.

That's a 93% chance that the crab wins the grapple check.

[Gralamin]

No, the crab is virtually guaranteed to grapple the fighter. The crab has a +19, the fighter has a +7. Let's look at the possibilities:

Crab rolls 8 or higher: Fighter cannot win.
Crab rolls 7: Fighter needs a natural 20.
Crab rolls 6: Fighter needs a 19-20.
Crab rolls 5: Fighter needs an 18-20.
Crab rolls 4: Fighter needs a 17-20.
Crab rolls 3: Fighter needs a 16-20.
Crab rolls 2: Fighter needs a 15-20.
Crab rolls 1: Fighter needs a 14-20.

That's a 93% chance that the crab wins the grapple check.

I forgot how to do opposed rolls. However I'm not sure your number is right. I'll check just in case.

Creating a table off above, for the chance of the fighter winning:
{table=head]Fighter Victory Chance|Result
5.00%|0.25%
10.00%|0.50%
15.00%|0.75%
20.00%|1.00%
25.00%|1.25%
30.00%|1.50%
35.00%|1.75%
Total|7.0000%[/table]
So it looks like your correct.

[Citizen Joe]

Extrapolating from your table I have this one for any opposed test. Ties go to highest modifier.
{table="head"]Advantage | % success weaker | % success stronger
19 | 0 | 100
18 | 0.25 | 99.75
17 | 0.75 | 99.25
16 | 1.5 | 98.5
15 | 2.5 | 97.5
14 | 3.75 | 96.25
13 | 5.25 | 94.75
12 | 7 | 93
11 | 9 | 91
10 | 11.25 | 88.75
9 | 13.75 | 86.25
8 | 16.5 | 83.5
7 | 19.5 | 80.5
6 | 22.75 | 77.25
5 | 26.25 | 73.75
4 | 30 | 70
3 | 34 | 66
2 | 38.25 | 61.75
1 | 42.75 | 57.25
0 | 47.5 | 52.5
[/table]

[Tengu]

You know, this would make for one hell of a mount at higher levels of play. Imagine the looks on the players' faces when a full cavalry of giant crabs crawls out of the ocean after them.

That reminds me of at least one, and probably more, old cartoons that I vaguely remember from my childhood.

[OneWinged4ngel]

That beast is CR 3!?!

CR is kinda arbitrarily assigned half the time, just so you know. Just because it says CR 3, doesn't mean it's the same difficulty as a Yeth Hound any more than a Fighter is actually the same challenge as an equal level Wizard thrown at the party.

Also, some monsters rather intentionally have the rather stupid [awesome] template, which basically means they're actually printed at a lower CR than the designers know they actually are, in the hopes that they will be "a more memorable encounter" since DMs will just glance at CR and throw them against a lower level party. You don't see it printed, but trust me, it's there. Dragons are some of the most notable offenders with the [awesome] template (they are basically up to 4 CR higher than they say they are, so you totally get under-rewarded for fighting them. If you don't die really, REALLY horribly.)

Basically, the [awesome] template is lame because, for all that "memorable experience," it's just plain misleading (since it's always written into those MMs in some sort of invisible ink that you can't detect by conventional methods) and furthermore the players don't get the XP or loot they deserve from killing the things.

[Falrin]

Technicly a DM can throw one of these at a LvL 2 Party.

This would be a "very difficult" encounter, so that thing will be the only thing they meet that day. In more ways than intended.


These things should be given an errata. We should make a list of CR-off encounters.

On the other hadn I add/deduct 1CR if the PC are Prepared/unperpared.

If they know there is a big crab harassing the local fisherman a 2nd LvL party should be able to pull this off. If they look for the smuglers cave and this thing rushes out to grab the fighter a 4th LvL party should be able to pull this of.

The second is not the case here. Not for a long shot.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Technicly a DM can throw one of these at a LvL 2 Party. Technically, a DM can throw any monster at a level anything party.

I've thrown fiendish tyrannosauruses at a level 4 party before. Of course, they were smart about it and completely avoided the encounter.

Anyways, the Gaming Den is right on the ball here: http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=433&postnum=0&highlight=Giant%20Crab

[Fax Celestis]

Dragons are some of the most notable offenders with the [awesome] template (they are basically up to 4 CR higher than they say they are, so you totally get under-rewarded for fighting them. If you don't die really, REALLY horribly.)

Don't dragons have "Treasure: Double standard" in their stat blocks? But still, I do see what you mean, since the party is getting under-rewarded XP-wise, which is arguably a more valuable commodity than gold.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Don't dragons have "Treasure: Double standard" in their stat blocks?

And they STILL don't give enough reward for the trouble of taking down an intelligently played dragon. Especially since that trouble can often be a TPK.

[Citizen Joe]

Intelligently played dragons could increase their effective CR exponentially.

There tends to be a fall off though. As dragons become more bad ass, their intelligence multiplier falls away and they act more on strength.

This could actually make a stronger dragon easier to defeat than a weaker one (that still has a sense of his mortality).

If you can some how trick a dragon into saying, "Ha ha! I am INVINCIBLE!" it will usually die within a few seconds.

[my_evil_twin]

Don't dragons have "Treasure: Double standard" in their stat blocks? But still, I do see what you mean, since the party is getting under-rewarded XP-wise, which is arguably a more valuable commodity than gold.Triple standard, for what it's worth.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Intelligently played dragons could increase their effective CR exponentially. The thing is, dragons were PURPOUSELY knocked down a few CR. The [Awesome] template means "you're actually like 3 CR higher than it says."


There tends to be a fall off though. As dragons become more bad ass, their intelligence multiplier falls away and they act more on strength. No, they don't. They have better and better spells, and they start to use those. Which can give them a dozen contingencies to justify their sense of invincibility.



I may of screwed up on something. If you notice anything, let me know. Correction: This thing will frequently eat a party member *per round.*

[Arbitrarity]

A potential reason for the application of the [awesome] template to dragons, is that players tend to attack dragons, rather than the other way around, making them significantly easier to kill.

[my_evil_twin]

I just checked that crab's stat block again, and noticed it's tactics section for the first time. It's "supposed" to grab one character, drag it back to its underwater lair, and eat it.

In general I'd feel bad killing a PC with a wandering monster and taking the body to an inaccessible location to be rendered unraisable. In TDC's case, it might be preferable to the thing popping off PC's heads 1-2-3-4 and lighting up a big ol' cigar in round five.

A few other monsters have this tactic, like gricks and ankhegs. I'm curious: do other DMs have their monsters do the carry-away-and-eat thing? (For that matter, what are the mechanics for that? Them being a part of the grapple rules, I'm never quite sure.)

[Fax Celestis]

I just checked that crab's stat block again, and noticed it's tactics section for the first time. It's "supposed" to grab one character, drag it back to its underwater lair, and eat it.

In general I'd feel bad killing a PC with a wandering monster and taking the body to an inaccessible location to be rendered unraisable. In TDC's case, it might be preferable to the thing popping off PC's heads 1-2-3-4 and lighting up a big ol' cigar in round five.

A few other monsters have this tactic, like gricks and ankhegs. I'm curious: do other DMs have their monsters do the carry-away-and-eat thing? (For that matter, what are the mechanics for that? Them being a part of the grapple rules, I'm never quite sure.)

Moving a creature while grappling requires a contested check. Of course, if your target is dead before you can carry it away, there's no real need for a check.

[Golthur]

A few other monsters have this tactic, like gricks and ankhegs. I'm curious: do other DMs have their monsters do the carry-away-and-eat thing? (For that matter, what are the mechanics for that? Them being a part of the grapple rules, I'm never quite sure.)

I've done this with ghouls before. Paralyze-grab-take-eat. It's very demoralizing - which is sometimes very, very appropriate. :amused:

[Citizen Joe]

That actually makes TDC more of a resetting trap than an actual monster. What's the CR on a 27 damage trap that takes away the body?

[kjones]

Does anyone know that stupid "Crab Battle" video on Newgrounds?

One of my players thinks it's the funniest thing ever created by mankind. I'm tempted to throw That Damned Crab at 'em just to shut him up.

[Citizen Joe]

I know there is a giant crab battle in Pirates: The Legend of Black Kat. But at least you get bombs to fight it.

[OneWinged4ngel]

That actually makes TDC more of a resetting trap than an actual monster. What's the CR on a 27 damage trap that takes away the body?

More than 3.

[Fax Celestis]

Dungeonscape's "Encounter Traps" section puts the crab at CR 5.4 (round down to 5), if you reverse engineer from an average 13.5 damage.

[Citizen Joe]

OK so now the question is: Is CR 5-6 appropriate for the crab? And I think others have already said yes.

[Golthur]

OK so now the question is: Is CR 5-6 appropriate for the crab? And I think others have already said yes.

And does "stealing the body" count as an additional modifier to the CR? :wink:

[Citizen Joe]

And does "stealing the body" count as an additional modifier to the CR? :wink:
Yes, body snatching is a big CR bonus. That is part of what makes dopplegangers so nasty. Even after you find and kill the doppleganger, you can't find your buddy's body.

[Reel On, Love]

OK so now the question is: Is CR 5-6 appropriate for the crab? And I think others have already said yes.

As long as the mage isn't incompetent ("HURR I FIREBALL IT DURR"), yes. Hit the thing with Grease if you guys have ranged weapons, then Ray of Enfeeblement (follow up with Ray of Exhaustion if you can); put the tanky guy in front, since crabs are mindless, and while it's grappling him, beat the crap out of it. He should have enough HP to survive at that point.

Glitterdust once again proves to kick the ass of 95% of level 2 spells, since being mindless doesn't do a damn thing in regards to becoming immune to it, and a blinded crab is much easier to avoid and/or mix it up with.

[Fax Celestis]

As long as the mage isn't incompetent ("HURR I FIREBALL IT DURR"), yes. Hit the thing with Grease if you guys have ranged weapons, then Ray of Enfeeblement (follow up with Ray of Exhaustion if you can); put the tanky guy in front, since crabs are mindless, and while it's grappling him, beat the crap out of it. He should have enough HP to survive at that point.

Glitterdust once again proves to kick the ass of 95% of level 2 spells, since being mindless doesn't do a damn thing in regards to becoming immune to it, and a blinded crab is much easier to avoid and/or mix it up with.

Being blinded also means that the party rogue can sneak attack it.

[Reel On, Love]

That actually means a particularily competent party has a good chance of taking the thing out at level 3--and if the wizard goes before the crab, or the crab starts too far away to charge and reach the party in one round, it can even do so without anyone dying. The Fighter and Rogue should be packing ranged weapons; after Glitterdust (and Grease before or after, depending), they can keep shooting it and move around so it can't counterattack.

That's more a testament to the power of intelligently played wizards, than anything, though.

[Citizen Joe]

Being blinded also means that the party rogue can sneak attack it.
Maybe not...


A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Crabs don't have the same vulnerabilities as people. So I'm not so sure a rogue would know where to strike (or if it could reach that spot). There is enough wiggle room that the DM can disallow it. I know that previous editions had the backstab, which only really worked for humanoid opponents.

Anyway, even at level 5, you're looking at a nasty encounter unless you are prepared... Crab rushes out of its water, grabs someone. Next round, return to water, more constrict damage.

[Fax Celestis]

Maybe not...

Crabs don't have the same vulnerabilities as people. So I'm not so sure a rogue would know where to strike (or if it could reach that spot). There is enough wiggle room that the DM can disallow it. I know that previous editions had the backstab, which only really worked for humanoid opponents.

Anyway, even at level 5, you're looking at a nasty encounter unless you are prepared... Crab rushes out of its water, grabs someone. Next round, return to water, more constrict damage.

Any sane DM will not disallow it. It's a difficult enough encounter already.

[starwoof]

Maybe not...

Crabs don't have the same vulnerabilities as people. So I'm not so sure a rogue would know where to strike (or if it could reach that spot). There is enough wiggle room that the DM can disallow it. I know that previous editions had the backstab, which only really worked for humanoid opponents.

Anyway, even at level 5, you're looking at a nasty encounter unless you are prepared... Crab rushes out of its water, grabs someone. Next round, return to water, more constrict damage.

Is a crab a construct, plant, undead, ooze, or incorporeal creature? IS it immune to sneak attacks? No? Then it can be sneak attacked.

[Reel On, Love]

Maybe not...

Crabs don't have the same vulnerabilities as people. So I'm not so sure a rogue would know where to strike (or if it could reach that spot). There is enough wiggle room that the DM can disallow it. I know that previous editions had the backstab, which only really worked for humanoid opponents.
Are vermin on the list of "creatures you can't sneak attack"? No. Are they immune to criticals? No. Can you see the crab's vitals? Yes, because you're a rogue, and you don't have to roll a check to identify the friggin' anatomy of something before you can sneak attack. Crabs don't have the same vulnerabilities as people... so you're not stabbing it in the same vital organ. "Look," says the rogue. "There's a hole in its shell." And he cracks a leg join with an arrow.


Anyway, even at level 5, you're looking at a nasty encounter unless you are prepared... Crab rushes out of its water, grabs someone. Next round, return to water, more constrict damage.
Next round it's blinded and doesn't necessarily know where the water is, or falling all over itself thanks to a grease spell. While the blinded or tripping crab mauls one character with constrict damage, the rest kill the hell out of it.
If it misses (and at level 5, ACs are high enough that it's got, what, a 40-50% chance of doing so?), a simple Silent Image can play absolute havoc with it, since it's mindless.
Because of the danger of one character getting killed, CR 6 might be more appropriate than 5, I guess.

[Citizen Joe]

It isn't IMMUNE, its just hard to get at its vitals. That's part of the evolution of a crab. If you could flip it over, I could definitely see sneak attack then.

[OneWinged4ngel]

On a semi-tangent, does anyone have ANY idea why vermin are mindless? Like, at all? It just seems to be another dose of gygaxian player screwing without rhyme or reason.

[Fax Celestis]

On a semi-tangent, does anyone have ANY idea why vermin are mindless? Like, at all? It just seems to be another dose of gygaxian player screwing without rhyme or reason.

Well, vermin are supposed to be monstrous insects or rodents, and you know, bugs and rats don't have brains. /sarcasm

Honestly? I've no idea.

[Reel On, Love]

It isn't IMMUNE, its just hard to get at its vitals. That's part of the evolution of a crab. If you could flip it over, I could definitely see sneak attack then.

Why is it hard to get at important points on its body? How about the face? The leg joints, or where they meet the carapace? If you decide that the giant crab can't be sneak attacked anywhere unless it's flipped over, you're making an arbitrary and unlikely decision that screws the player for no good reason.

If this was "you can't sneak attack a Frost Giant in the foot with your dagger, halfling, you'll need to find a way of reaching its knees or kidneys", you'd have a point. As is, not really.

[Fax Celestis]

If this was "you can't sneak attack a Frost Giant in the foot with your dagger, halfling, you'll need to find a way of reaching its knees or kidneys", you'd have a point. As is, not really.

Even at that height, one can still hamstring the giant. You're at the right height. I'd call that a Sneak Attack, in all honesty.

[Reel On, Love]

Even at that height, one can still hamstring the giant. You're at the right height. I'd call that a Sneak Attack, in all honesty.

Yeah, OK. I'm all for rogues being able to sneak attack anything not immune to it (and, heck, things shouldn't be immune to it, not great game design there); I guess the clause is there to prevent WTF moments when the rogue sneak attacks some monster that explicitly keeps its vital organs in some weird place.

[Ozymandias]

I'd say that a rogue's sneak attack is analogous to attacking its weak point for massive damage.

...

I'm sorry.

[Fax Celestis]

I'd say that a rogue's sneak attack is analogous to attacking its weak point for massive damage.

...

I'm sorry.

You should be. :smalltongue:

[Reel On, Love]

I'd hate you for that, Ozy (oh, and it's MASSIVE damage), but... well, yeah. That's exactly what a sneak attack is.

[Citizen Joe]

Well, I'd simply ask where the rogue was trying to sneak attack. If he explained someplace accessible, then I'd allow it. But crab legs are not vitals. It is stone crab season here, and they just break off the claw and throw back the crab so that it grows another. Eyes are a good location to sneak attack, but if it's blinded, it would likely instinctively cover its 'face' with its claws and probably back up (or move sideways) towards the water. All I'm saying is don't count on a sneak attack.

As to peppering it with arrows... It has Darkvision 60'. So it would likely remain hidden (underwater) until something entered that range. Then surprise charge and grab.

Actually, here's a cheesy trick (but we're assuming we know it is there)... Two fighters form up with tower shields. The switch to total cover and move in slowly. The crab can't attack them because they have total cover. Now pelt with arrows and spells.

[Reel On, Love]

Well, I'd simply ask where the rogue was trying to sneak attack. If he explained someplace accessible, then I'd allow it. But crab legs are not vitals. It is stone crab season here, and they just break off the claw and throw back the crab so that it grows another. Eyes are a good location to sneak attack, but if it's blinded, it would likely instinctively cover its 'face' with its claws and probably back up (or move sideways) towards the water. All I'm saying is don't count on a sneak attack.
Uh, they're not vitals? It's a *giant* crab. It's using them to walk around. Sure, it might grow back eventually but that doesn't mean it doesn't like having it to move. Heck, the rogue just needs to qualify for something; if you want to customize weak spots for creatures, it's your job as a DM to tell him where they are (you notice that the creature has vulnerable eyes and a soft underbelly as well as an opening in the back of the shell, etc); him qualifying for sneak attack means that this character *has* noticed, and it's ridiculous to require knowledge of crustacean anatomy from the rogue's player.

Yes, people *should* count on sneak attacks, because it'd be totally unreasonable, pointless, and otherwise bad for a DM to deny them.

As to peppering it with arrows... It has Darkvision 60'. So it would likely remain hidden (underwater) until something entered that range. Then surprise charge and grab.[/quote]
Dwarves have darkvision 60', too.
If it grabs someone, then people prevent it from leaving (grease, blindness) and beat it up.

[Fax Celestis]

Uh, they're not vitals? It's a *giant* crab. It's using them to walk around. Sure, it might grow back eventually but that doesn't mean it doesn't like having it to move. Heck, the rogue just needs to qualify for something; if you want to customize weak spots for creatures, it's your job as a DM to tell him where they are (you notice that the creature has vulnerable eyes and a soft underbelly as well as an opening in the back of the shell, etc); him qualifying for sneak attack means that this character *has* noticed, and it's ridiculous to require knowledge of crustacean anatomy from the rogue's player.

Furthermore, actually saying "this is where you need to hit" in a combat system that has neither called shots nor facing is a bit ridiculous. What does the player have to do, say, "I aim for the eyes!"? That's a pretty ridiculous requirement.

[Spiryt]

Well, Citizen, with your logic, what about purple worms and Red dragons?
You know, rogue virtualy can't reach any vitals of ancient RD, even if he's 6 feet 8 ...

[Citizen Joe]

Bah!
RULE 0: I deny your sneak attack because his vitals aren't accessible
RULE 0: I deny your grease because it is sandy and it's legs go right through into the sand.
RULE 0: This is it's layer, it knows where the water is and escapes.
RULE 0: On its way to the water it knocks over a post. The ceiling collapses. Rocks fall. You all die.:smalltongue:

"Wiggle room to deny"

[skywalker]

Crab legs are pretty brittle. Seems like a heavy mace(simple weapons FTW) to the knee would cause it some serious problems.

If the thing's that tall, can't you see its underside anyway? You could find a joint in the shell or something, I would think...

[Fax Celestis]

Bah!
RULE 0: I deny your sneak attack because his vitals aren't accessible
RULE 0: I deny your grease because it is sandy and it's legs go right through into the sand.
RULE 0: This is it's layer, it knows where the water is and escapes.
RULE 0: On its way to the water it knocks over a post. The ceiling collapses. Rocks fall. You all die.:smalltongue:

"Wiggle room to deny"

And that would be the point where your players say, "WTF," throw down their dice, and leave in disgust.

[Jasdoif]

And that would be the point where your players say, "WTF," throw down their dice, and leave in disgust.Or throw their dice at you in disgust.

[Fax Celestis]

Or throw their dice at you in disgust.

Right. Rule 0 is not to allow DMs the ability to screw their players; it's to alter things so that things are more realistic/make more sense/easily settle disputes.

[Citizen Joe]

Right. Rule 0 is not to allow DMs the ability to screw their players; it's to alter things so that things are more realistic/make more sense/easily settle disputes.

You mean like how a fully armored creature whose entire evolution was based on hiding its vitals shouldn't be sneak attacked?

Or how greasy sandy isn't that slippery, in fact it is more sticky.

Or how a creature knows its lair?

[OneWinged4ngel]

You mean like how a fully armored creature whose entire evolution was based on hiding its vitals shouldn't be sneak attacked?

Or how greasy sandy isn't that slippery, in fact it is more sticky.

Or how a creature knows its lair?

Who said the Grease spell used actual grease? I would imagine it would be a good deal weaker if that were the case. Saying that it's not really quite as magical as the description says it is is a Rule Zero that doesn't add realism, it just adds WTF.

Also, crabs have weak points and a discernible anatomy. Thus, they can be sneak attacked. Saying they can't is another WTF.

A creature knowing its lair? Well, that's a given.

[Spiryt]

You mean like how a fully armored creature whose entire evolution was based on hiding its vitals shouldn't be sneak attacked?



Well, this way scimitar wielding player should have no way to damage guy in full plate.

Besides, like others said, sneak attacks is not necessarily about striking kidneys or something. Tearing joint in yhe leg, to hampers it's movement will do just OK.

[Ulzgoroth]

-Full plate armor is also built with intent to make it hard to reach the wearer's vitals. It makes sneak attacking harder only insofar as it makes hitting at all harder, unless it has a magical effect added to do more.

-Maybe. Even if it makes the surface magically slippery instead of using grease, it would be hard for something heavy to slip and fall when it plants its feet inside the ground. I suggest not using grease on sand if the DM is creative that way.

-Just backing up does seem like something it could do when blind. Does it not run backwards to its lair normally without looking?

[Citizen Joe]

A grease spell covers a solid surface with a layer of slippery grease.

Sand is not a solid surface. And the spell says clearly that it makes a layer of grease.


The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Rogue has to pick out a spot and reach it.

Hamstringing is attacking a limb thus doesn't count.

[Citizen Joe]

Besides, like others said, sneak attacks is not necessarily about striking kidneys or something. Tearing joint in the leg, to hampers it's movement will do just OK.
That isn't sneak attack, that's another (higher level) rogue special ability, crippling strike.

[Draz74]

You mean like how a fully armored creature whose entire evolution was based on hiding its vitals shouldn't be sneak attacked?

Right ... this is why:

- Not everyone gets sneak attack damage on every attack. This is the reason that Rogues' training is special: they make a point of learning how to get around such evolutionary defenses.

- They still have to hit the thing (in spite of its natural armor bonus) to do Sneak Attack damage. :smalltongue:

[skywalker]

That isn't sneak attack, that's another (higher level) rogue special ability, crippling strike.

I concede this point, striking the limbs is not an affective sneak attack according to the SRD.

However, if you're going to be that RAW, then, by the RAW, crabs do NOT have any ability to avoid sneak attacks, and are, thus, vulnerable.

[Ulzgoroth]

Rogue has to pick out a spot and reach it.

Hamstringing is attacking a limb thus doesn't count.
Yes, but the crab is only a large creature. The rogue has 5-foot reach. Half of the crab is available as targets. If the crab contains no possible targets, it ought to explicitly say it's immune to sneak attacks.

EDIT: If it does contain any targets, the rogue is going to be able to reach some of them. If it were a colossal crab, that might be different...

[Citizen Joe]

Yes, but the crab is only a large creature. The rogue has 5-foot reach. Half of the crab is available as targets. If the crab contains no possible targets, it ought to explicitly say it's immune to sneak attacks.

EDIT: If it does contain any targets, the rogue is going to be able to reach some of them. If it were a colossal crab, that might be different...


OK, let me flip that. Assuming its vulnerable spots are on its belly, then you can't reach them because it is so small, and thus low to the ground. A collossal crab would be higher thus exposing its underside... unless it was REALLY big, in which case they are out of reach. Again this goes back to the trick of flipping it over to get your sneak attacks in.

[Spiryt]

That isn't sneak attack, that's another (higher level) rogue special ability, crippling strike.

Can't see the difference. You are taking it too literally.

Sneak attack By striking joint of enemy, rogue hampers it movement, cause pain and generally make it more vulnerable to next strikes, for example Fighter's glaive strike. It is represented by HP loss

Sneak attack with CS Rogue can wound creature leg in even nastier way. Besides HP loss it is weaker in very mechanical way -2 to strenght.

That's all.


BTW: I never realized it before (probably never played high lev. rogue), but crippling strike looks pretty sick. With two weapon fighting it can quickly divest strenght freaks from their greatest advantages, and render those with mod/low strenght useless or helpless...

[Ulzgoroth]

OK, let me flip that. Assuming its vulnerable spots are on its belly, then you can't reach them because it is so small, and thus low to the ground. A collossal crab would be higher thus exposing its underside... unless it was REALLY big, in which case they are out of reach. Again this goes back to the trick of flipping it over to get your sneak attacks in.
And if it were Small, or more likely tiny, that might make sense (though if it weren't included in the rules for said crab, I might reasonably conclude that that's because you can punch through its armor when you attack. Because you quite clearly can). Only large still means it's more than big enough to put the space under its body in easy reach, especially for people who can hamstring a halfling.

Also, colossal is bigger than that. Really. A space at least 30 feet to a side...that thing is not going to have less than 10 feet under it. Maybe you can reach the bottom, but unless you're using a reach weapon I'm not sure you could actually damage it that way.

[AslanCross]

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.
I'd rule as follows:
-"...see the target well enough..." The target is in full sight of the rogue and has no concealment. It cannot hide its body with its own body.
-"...must be able to reach such a spot." The target is simply within range of the rogue's attack.

The game's combat system is an abstraction; since we don't have called shots and facing, it doesn't really matter and will not add anything to the game. Also, under that definition, a lot of other things will get immunity to sneak attack.

Dragons have incredibly tough hide. "That dagger just can't get into its innards" would apply. What about a bulette? Any large vermin would have a carapace tough enough to resist regular weapons. Insects all have an exoskeleton that would be very difficult to pierce if you scaled them up to the size of a bus.

[my_evil_twin]

Well, vermin are supposed to be monstrous insects or rodents, and you know, bugs and rats don't have brains. /sarcasm

Honestly? I've no idea.Well, rats are classified as animals, rather than vermin, so they have minds. I know that some bugs (worms, for example) have almost nothing in the way of a brain at all, hence mindless. I don't know if shellfish have what you would properly call a "brain" either.

[Citizen Joe]

I think you're all missing my point that within its favored terrain, That Damn Crab becomes even more difficult.

My comments about sneak attack vanish if you attack it underwater while swimming. Grease the deck of a boat and you can virtually immobilize it. Summon it out of it's lair and it doesn't know where it is. It's all situational modifiers. This sort of thing can apply to most creatures with lairs, especially dragons.

On the other hand, if you know it is there and conduct the encounter as a hunting expedition, things change quickly. It is mindless, so it will go after the easiest food source. With some preparation, you can make traps that you can hang bait from. Send those out in front of you and the crab will likely get snared. Once the claws are impaired, it's a relatively simple matter of flipping it over and gutting it. But you need to do it on your own terms, attacking its weakness (mindlessness).

[AslanCross]

Well, rats are classified as animals, rather than vermin, so they have minds. I know that some bugs (worms, for example) have almost nothing in the way of a brain at all, hence mindless. I don't know if shellfish have what you would properly call a "brain" either.

That's correct. Cockroaches, for example, have a whole bunch of nerve clusters in their body that act as "brains." Removing their head doesn't actually kill them. (Their blood won't gush out of their body like it would in mammals since it isn't pressurized, and they still have other "brains.") They'd eventually die of starvation since they won't be able to eat, but technically it doesn't kill them instantly. I'm glad they didn't put this into D&D. (Immune to crits!)

[Viscount Einstrauss]

It's assumed in any instance where a rogue can sneak attack that he's gotten the creature off guard enough to show a vital point (see: flatfooted), so long as it has vital points. This may be it a chink in the armor or just a temporary drop in stance. The thing that would hurt a rogue in this case would be the necessity to strike a vital spot, and it's kept higher on a large-sized creature then normal. A medium-sized character ought to be able to reach it, but I could understand telling Dophi the gnomish rogue that he can't sneak attack the giant crab without making a terrific jump check first.

[Citizen Joe]

A medium-sized character ought to be able to reach it, but I could understand telling Dophi the gnomish rogue that he can't sneak attack the giant crab without making a terrific jump check first.
Actually, with the vitals underneath, I'd be more likely to grant a sneak attack to the gnome than a medium sized rogue (who only has access to the back of the crab).

A large sized crab would roughly be the size/shape of a couple couches pushed together. It isn't very tall, thus the vitals aren't accessible. If you can get it to rear up, then you have access to its vitals. But the original condition to generate the sneak attack was blinding the crab with glitterdust. A blinded crab will get defensive, dropping low to protect its vitals.

It's all very situational.

[skywalker]

Actually, with the vitals underneath, I'd be more likely to grant a sneak attack to the gnome than a medium sized rogue (who only has access to the back of the crab).
Ah, the joys of confound the big folk.


A large sized crab would roughly be the size/shape of a couple couches pushed together. It isn't very tall, thus the vitals aren't accessible. If you can get it to rear up, then you have access to its vitals. But the original condition to generate the sneak attack was blinding the crab with glitterdust. A blinded crab will get defensive, dropping low to protect its vitals.

It's all very situational.

But if it drops low, isn't it making targets of its eyes?

I still say if you're going to read the rules strictly enough that attacking limbs can't be sneak attacks, then you've got to read the rules strictly enough that since the crab is sans dex bonus, it's capable of being sneak attacked. What about that little edge joint where the two shell pieces meet? Is that not a weak point?

[Citizen Joe]

What about that little edge joint where the two shell pieces meet? Is that not a weak point?
Sneak attack goes for vitals, not weak points. Vitals just aren't being exposed. Eyestalks aren't that vital either. Vital = can't live without it.

That joint where two shells meet is underneath. Again, gnome yes, human no. Huge monstrous crab, human should be able to get at the vitals. Gargantuan+ starts to get out of reach.

Again, flip that baby over and you can sneak attack to your heart's content.

[....]

All I can say is Crab Battle. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mHKHKR8x6A)

(Someone had to)

[Tengu]

Or throw their dice at you in disgust.

Or force you to eat their dice in disgust.

[OneWinged4ngel]

All I can say is Crab Battle. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mHKHKR8x6A)

(Someone had to)

...Man, that is EXACTLY how I would react if my DM threw a Monstrous Crab at me.

"OH MY GOD! IT'S LOOKING RIGHT AT ME!"

"SWEET JESUS! IT'S GETTING CLOSER!"

[Jacob Orlove]

On a semi-tangent, does anyone have ANY idea why vermin are mindless? Like, at all? It just seems to be another dose of gygaxian player screwing without rhyme or reason.
Once again, Frank Trollman to the rescue. Here's an explanation that actually makes sense (from The Gaming Den (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=1035), naturally, and includes some house rules):



Created Monsters: Forged and Bred
"It's alive! Or at least animate… it's not an object anymore, that's my point."

There are three entire types of creatures in D&D that are to one degree or another created. The obvious one of course is the Construct. It's a creature which was never alive and created by sorcery. Well, most of them are like that. The Flesh Golem is kind of hard to explain actually, but whatever. The point is that every Construct is constructed. That's the whole point. And of course there are a lot of Undead that are pretty much the same thing except that they are animated with Negative Energy channeled into them. There's a lot you can say about those guys, and we actually did that in the Tome of Necromancy. So we aren't touching that one here. The other one of course, is the Vermin. In D&D land, "Vermin" doesn't mean anything vaguely approaching its meaning in natural English. Rats and cockroaches are vermin because they live in your pantry and poop on your food stores, but they aren't Vermin because they aren't enormous biological constructs that mindlessly follow the programming planted in them by an ancient race of long departed mage kings. Really. That's what the Vermin type means in D&D land. Actual giant insects are just animals in the same way that dire toads and weasels are animals.

Vermin: Remnants of a Fallen Empire
" Great holes secretly are digged where earth's pores ought to suffice. Things have learnt to walk which ought to crawl..."

Ants track by smell and follow trails left by other ants and bees see deep into the ultraviolet spectrum and perceive a beautiful tapestry of gorgeous colors that escape the eye of the man and the mouse. And when dealing with Vermin type creatures that all means precisely nothing, because Vermin in D&D don't do any of that. It's not because the scent ability was "left off" the Monstrous Ant description, it's because the Ant described in the Monster Manual genuinely doesn't have a good sense of smell. It does have Darkvision out to 60 feet like an outsider or a Construct, and that's not an accident either despite the fact that Earthly ants really demonstrably don't do that regardless of size.

The Monstrous Scorpion isn't a super sized scorpion at all. It has a set of abilities which are on the face of it completely bizarre from the context of what actual scorpions do, because it's actually a living construct created by a long fallen empire for use in war. That's why it's immune to hallucinatory poisons and can see in perfect darkness. It's actually created from biomass by powerful magic and not by the interaction of natural and magical mutation across a thousand generations and a harsh selection process hastened by unpredictable climate and predation by manticores. The Vermin have a couple of neat things going for them which is why they were created as war machines in the first place:

* Mindless – unlike actual or even giant spiders, the monstrous spider has no mind at all. It cannot be influenced with magic or confused with poisons. It can't even be detected with detect thoughts.
* Brainless – Vermin are subject to critical hits because they have segments and organs, but they don't have any brains. That means that they can be blinded, but not killed, by decapitation.
* Darkvision – Vermin can see even in complete darkness, making them quite useful in cave fighting.
* Aggressive – The vast majority of predators will retreat from battles where they are presented with even a chance at serious injury. Yet Vermin fight until they are dead. That's a really bad plan for an individual or even a species, but it's great for a battle platform.



Who made the Vermin?
"They did not know that steel marks flesh, and they did not know that flesh does not mark steel. In their ignorance they continued to do one task after another in the old ways. They did not know what we know."

Vermin come from the before time. The time when metals were not made and words were not written down. It's quite a feat of construction talent and a testimony to the power and ingenuity of these ancient flesh crafters that these devices are still running, still attempting to fulfill their programming to this day. The answer is not known in the days that D&D is normally set. They are a product of a bygone age and their origin is a mystery to all but the Aboleth, and the memory fish are being extremely quiet on this subject. And yet, their conspicuous silence is probably more telling than anything they could possibly say. The Vermin were constructed during the days when aberrations ruled the world, and they were quite obviously designed to fight against aberrations.

Getting the Program. All Vermin have a program that they follow at all times, usually involving a spiral search pattern in groups of one to six until they encounter a creature, at which point they will attack it until it is dead. If confronted with more than one type of creature, they will target them in the following order:
* Any Aberration (except their specific non-targeted group)
* Any Humanoid
* Any other moving creature they can detect
* Anything especially edible
This behavior is entirely comprehensible from the standpoint of the wars in the before time – the Illithid and Aboleth both sent slave troopers to their death by the millions in their quest for world domination.


Individual groups of Vermin will usually have one type of aberration that they will not ever attack. It may be an entire race of aberrations (such as Kopru or Neogi), or it may be a specific clan of aberrations (such as the Aboleth spawn of the Great Mother of the Howling Wells, or the Ilithid of the Tallow Halls). In any case, determining the type of Aberration that is completely safe from any group of Vermin can be done by observing the markings on the beast. Extracting that information is a DC 30 Knowledge Nature check.

Vermin eggs persist apparently indefinitely and are produced by the hundred score. A starving Vermin cocoons itself and goes into a state of hibernation so deep that it is essentially mummified. When in the presence of magical auras, the eggs of Vermin progress steadily towards hatching, and the cocoons burst forth their contents. Thus it is not weird or unexplainable for areas that recently have been subjected to incursion by adventurers or mind flayers to spontaneously develop invasions by tiny monstrous centipedes or giant cocooned spiders.

[Foeofthelance]

Ok, in my defense, I'm going to be using it to keep an essentially unkillable PC pinned to a wall. (His build involves being monk, human paragon, six or seven feats, as well as third party source that's been allowed before. He's now a regenerating undead whose made a pact with a devil for Acid and Fire resistance 25 each.) It was either the crabs, or I throw a couple of CR 10 things at him, as those are about the only things capable of doing that much elemental damage.

But there are two of them...

[excrtd]

The fact that undead have no Constitution score and that "a creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability" makes me seriously question the third party source you are using.

[dyslexicfaser]

Ok, in my defense, I'm going to be using it to keep an essentially unkillable PC pinned to a wall. (His build involves being monk, human paragon, six or seven feats, as well as third party source that's been allowed before. He's now a regenerating undead whose made a pact with a devil for Acid and Fire resistance 25 each.)
I do not feel sorry for this PC.

I hope your crab kills and eats him, and his party members have to try and resurrect him from a steaming pile of whatever scat a crab leaves behind.

Did that come off as bitter?

...

And now I'm curious about the digestive and excretory functions of crustaceans. Weird.

EDIT: Just a thought - do monstrous crabs get around via scuttling? Because that would make a pretty funny-looking charge.

[Ramza00]

it would make a great animal companion or paladin mount...if mount you will need the celestial template applied to it first (paladin 6). Also the warbeast template applied to it.

[Foeofthelance]

The fact that undead have no Constitution score and that "a creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability" makes me seriously question the third party source you are using.

Can you post the cite for that please? That was my objection, but apparently it wasn't listed under the ability description.

[excrtd]

It is on the SRD under special abilities. here is the address of the page

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

[Zincorium]

Can you post the cite for that please? That was my objection, but apparently it wasn't listed under the ability description.

You sure?



Regeneration

Creatures with this extraordinary ability recover from wounds quickly and can even regrow or reattach severed body parts. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage, and the creature automatically cures itself of nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the creature’s entry.

Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal damage to the creature normally; that sort of damage doesn’t convert to nonlethal damage and so doesn’t go away. The creature’s description includes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

Creatures with regeneration can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts. Severed parts die if they are not reattached.

Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration.

An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.


Page 314 of the monster manual has the same spiel.

[Snapdragon]

I don't get it. It's large, with no particular skill at hiding, or spotting. DC1 to spot a human walking at <10', DC10 at 100'. It still fails almost half the time. Avg. crab hide roll at 100' ~18. about half the time for the spotter-type in the party, call it 30% for the cleric and 15% for the other two. ~3/4 of the time at least one party member spots it (if you include a couple more rounds of walking up to it, the party gains surprise even more often). It takes at least one round to move into charge range (deep sand being difficult terrain). So given (at least) two full rounds, plus some surprise round actions CFRW 3's should be able to at least avoid the encounter and probably beat it senseless.

[Citizen Joe]

I don't get it. It's large, with no particular skill at hiding, or spotting. DC1 to spot a human walking at <10', DC10 at 100'. It still fails almost half the time. Avg. crab hide roll at 100' ~18. about half the time for the spotter-type in the party, call it 30% for the cleric and 15% for the other two. ~3/4 of the time at least one party member spots it (if you include a couple more rounds of walking up to it, the party gains surprise even more often). It takes at least one round to move into charge range (deep sand being difficult terrain). So given (at least) two full rounds, plus some surprise round actions CFRW 3's should be able to at least avoid the encounter and probably beat it senseless.

It is debatable if sand is difficult terrain for a crab. Some creatures adapt to their environment so that what is difficult for one species may be the preferred terrain for another. A dromodary camel handles sands very well, but a horse could break its leg. Considering the monstrous crab moves faster on land than swimming, I'd say it is more of the sand walking type, thus not hindered by the sand. That only makes it doubly dangerous. Now you can't even run away on a horse.

If sand is difficult terrain for the crab then it can't charge at all. At 100' it would take two whole rounds of double moves plus a move until it could attack.

[Mike_Lemmer]

I don't get it. It's large, with no particular skill at hiding, or spotting. DC1 to spot a human walking at <10', DC10 at 100'. It still fails almost half the time.

Okay, quick show of hands, how many GMs actually use Spot checks to determine encounter distance, and how many just wing it? I'd guess the crab usually pops up around 60-70' away from the party no matter the terrain or Spot checks.

[Snapdragon]

It is debatable if sand is difficult terrain for a crab.

My rationale is, the description doesn't suggest that the crab has any special mobility on land, and thus does not. The evolution argument is cute, but the crab is clearly more aquatic than terrestrial. It has a swim speed.



If sand is difficult terrain for the crab then it can't charge at all. At 100' it would take two whole rounds of double moves plus a move until it could attack.

Yeah, but it's not necessarily 100' of sand either. After all you wanna give the thing a chance.:smalltongue:

[Citizen Joe]

My rationale is, the description doesn't suggest that the crab has any special mobility on land, and thus does not.
The crab has a faster land speed than swim speed. If it was less, then I'd suggest that it was much more aquatic. But as it is, it seems to me the type of crab that handles sand well.

Look up an elephant, it won't say anything about it moving easy in mud, but it evolved feet designed to work well in mud, compared to other animals. Its foot actually expands to make a wide footing when it puts pressure on it. When it pulls its foot out, the foot shrinks back down making it easy to pull free.

Foliage could completely stop people, but a squirrel will scamper right through.

It is all situational.

[Irreverent Fool]

The crab has a faster land speed than swim speed. If it was less, then I'd suggest that it was much more aquatic. But as it is, it seems to me the type of crab that handles sand well.

Look up an elephant, it won't say anything about it moving easy in mud, but it evolved feet designed to work well in mud, compared to other animals. Its foot actually expands to make a wide footing when it puts pressure on it. When it pulls its foot out, the foot shrinks back down making it easy to pull free.

Foliage could completely stop people, but a squirrel will scamper right through.

It is all situational.

While I agree it is all situational, remember that this thing is a LARGE MONSTROUS crab. Those big ol' pointed legs probably aren't going to help mobility with all that weight, and like it was mentioned: it doesn't say it has any particular mobility on sand. Giving it the disadvantage of the sandy terrain over which it cannot charge seems fair enough.


This thing will frequently eat a party member *per round.*


On a side note though, couldn't these only be fiendish. They are obviously the spawn of the devil, made solely to TPK unsuspecting level 3s.

The saving grace of this thing is that as a crab and as its description goes, it will only kill one of the party before skittering off to eat its prize, rather than performing a TPK.

[Guy_Whozevl]

it would make a great animal companion or paladin mount...if mount you will need the celestial template applied to it first (paladin 6). Also the warbeast template applied to it.

This would actually make playing a paladin, at least for me, a viable choise. Heck, who needs "bump uglies" when you have That Damned Crab!

On a side note though, couldn't these only be fiendish. They are obviously the spawn of the devil, made solely to TPK unsuspecting level 3s.

[Deepblue706]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mHKHKR8x6A

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, vermin are supposed to be monstrous insects or rodents, and you know, bugs and rats don't have brains. /sarcasm

Honestly? I've no idea.
Rats aren't vermin-type creatures; they're animals. Vermin seem to be defined as invertebrates, for what that's worth.

[Frosty]

This thing is definitely a CR 6 or higher. It would kill off at least 2 of my party members before going down, and we're all level 6.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I...um...I don't get the joke. Care to explain?

[Mewtarthio]

I...um...I don't get the joke. Care to explain?

Oh, you see, it's funny because the Monstrous Crab kills level-appropriate characters at a ridiculously high rate due to its badly miscalculated CR. We call it "That Damned Crab" because people like to refer to things they don't like as being "damned" since everyone thinks they personally have the right to determine who gets into heaven.

Hey, how many Monstrous Crabs does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

[SurlySeraph]

@^: One: one to crush adventurers until they screw in the bulb for it.

[Yakk]

Sneak attack goes for vitals, not weak points. Vitals just aren't being exposed. Eyestalks aren't that vital either. Vital = can't live without it.

That joint where two shells meet is underneath. Again, gnome yes, human no. Huge monstrous crab, human should be able to get at the vitals. Gargantuan+ starts to get out of reach.

Again, flip that baby over and you can sneak attack to your heart's content.

As far as I can tell, that paragraph refers to attacking someone when they are out of reach.

Ie: you are a rogue 10' away from the crab. You ready an attack saying "I want to hit the crab when it claws at me". It attacks, you claim sneak attack.


A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

You have a 5' reach. The creature is 10' wide. You can thus reach 1/3 of the way into the creature. Sure, that might mean your dagger goes through a weak spot in the shell and your arm comes out all gooey -- but no way does the crab have 3' of non-vital organs.

By that standard, wouldn't G sized creatures be immune to sneak attack -- they are 40' on a side! Your sneak attack only penetrates 10% of their body thickness -- nowhere deep enough to hit anything vital.

In effect: the Rogue has enough problems without creating entire new classes of creatures immune to sneak attack. Unless you are doing some crazy Rule 0 "your sneak attack hits the giant's hamstring, and he falls prone" free of charge a bunch, screwing with a pretty fundamental character ability of an underpowered character isn't very polite.

[Starbuck_II]

How much SM spell would you consider the Crab worth? SM 4 or SM 5, Celestial/fiendish template gives DR so I'm leaning toward SM 5.

Granted, I'd have to ask to get this added to list.

[Renegade Paladin]

For what it's worth, That Damned Crab! got a considerable downgrade and a CR increase when monstrous crabs were reprinted in Stormwrack. (They knocked the CON score down about ten points, removed a Hit Die, took off a point of STR, didn't multiply the Strength bonus to damage by 1.5, took away the darkvision, dropped DEX by three points, and raised the CR to 4. About the only thing that went up besides the challenge rating was the constrict damage and another +1 to natural armor, which is negated by the DEX drop.)

[Triggerhappy938]

I think I saw this crab in my japanese history text.