Returning 3e-er looking to play Factotum 1-20 an low-op game [Archive]

Nifft

2018-08-27, 06:23 PM

Hi all, here is the scoop:

After several years with Hero System, my group is going to play another 3e game. I personally have been playing 5e for a while with another group and am rusty with 3e. We are looking to play low optimization, with lots of single-class high-tier classes and low tier classes only in flavorful multiclasses (so no straight wizards for example, but a wizard-rogue-AT might happen). Certainly not a lot of loopholing or optimization shenanigans and such. I'm picturing a character who is a human (or humanesque) character who is a skill-monkey type, and am interested in playing a Factotum levels 1-20. How should I go about this and make the character playable? I have no expectation that iajitsu will be an option, but keen intellect (to make Wis my dump stat) and Knowledge devotion (to do the whole RDJ-Sherlock Holmes routine) probably are.
Advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

Can you qualify for item creation feats? If so, you can craft some useful wands (for UMD) using the Factotum's otherwise lackluster daily spells.

Can you qualify for [Reserve] feats with your spells? If you can, then I'd recommend Fiery Burst at level 6.

You want UMD (obviously), and your write-up talks about Knowledge skills; what other skills will you take?

Having some Knowledge skills means you could do something with Knowledge Devotion, and that's useful because it doesn't care if you're using magic or weapons.

Feats are going to be your biggest limitation -- they're what allow you to do stuff after all. I'd probably not take Font of Inspiration at all until level 9.

Knowledge Devotion can be taken at level 3.

Level 6 could be a [Reserve] feat or an [Item Creation] feat -- Craft Wand is a good choice, or Craft Wondrous Device to make your whole party better-equipped (and then take Craft Wand at level 9).

Level 1 you could take Point-Blank Shot + Rapid Shot. That fits with the ranged attacker role. Or you could take Font of Inspiration twice, but it seems like that leaves you with very little to do.

You might be able to take Craven using your pay-per-view Sneak Attack thing (ask your DM) -- if so, it makes paying for +1d6 sneak attack much more worthwhile, especially at higher levels.

Kelb_Panthera

2018-08-27, 08:20 PM

Factotum is a tough row to hoe. The class itself gives you essentially two features of note and then lets you half-ass what the four archetypal classes do in limited fashion.

Cunning surge and cunning brilliance are pure gold. Extra actions and getting to actually use the features of another class are both very nice.

Cunning insight lets you pretend you're a (not very good) fighter and might save you from a not-quite-good-enough roll on a save. Cunning defense is a wannabe dodge (albeit with a better bonus). Cunning strike is either monumentally inadequate or eats your inspiration like candy (depending on interpretation). Opportunistic piety is either discount lay-on-hands or turn undead (the latter of which is doomed to fail without focus). Cunning breach is nice but niche. Cunning dodge would actually be pretty cool if it weren't limited to 1/day. Improved cunning defense is actually decent but nothing to write home about.

Then there's arcane dilettante. Arcane dilettante is -almost- a winning class feature. It's too few spells of too low a level to hang your entire character on it but it does draw from the best spell list and you don't need to have a spellbook or draw from a limited number of spells known. On the other hand, you can't prepare the same spell more than once and you have to set them all at the start of the day. Grab spells with broad applicability and use them if an opportunity arises but don't expect this to carry you through a day.

Ultimately, I'd say you ought to play carefully off of your WBL.

Wands are nice but the cost adds up over time if they're your primary method of attack. Grab some battlefield control options (entangle, various fogs, black tentacles, etc) and some solid buffs then move on.

If it was me, I'd lean on archery for my primary attack method. It has its issues but it also has a very low-opportunity cost wrt feats and stats required. Getting a variety of arrows and firing them from a decent bow can let you cover a lot more ground with targeting enemy weaknesses (although you'll want to be economical with the specialty arrows) and you can keep some distance between you and the things that want to see you smeared across a wall or a dinner plate.

For armor and shield, you'll want to grab specials abilities like blurring and ectoplasmic wall that give you defenses that do more than just boost your AC.

All I can tell you about other tools is to be sure you don't neglect alchemical items (lots of goodies there) and get creative with stuff that gives you BFC options, summons, and mobility options.

A final note (and I'll catch some crap for this one); don't waste a feat on font of inspiration. It's just not worth the cost unless you can convince the GM to let you buy it for 10k gold (arms and equipment guide).

Seriously, you're MacGuyver not Gandalf or Drizz't.

The one thing that a factotum does do pretty well is interact with the skill system. Iaijutsu is a decent little boost if you get the opportunity to use it but I wouldn't bother building around it. Knowledge with knowledge devotion is a solid option and knowing what's going on in the world doesn't hurt either. Beyond that, the stealth and perception skills can be fun if you can put them to proper use as can the social skills but you can't do everything even if you can do anything in this field. UMD is, of course, virtually mandatory. Just make sure you support whatever you do pick magically (via gear) to get the most out of it.

Good luck. Let us known how it goes.

Willie the Duck

2018-08-27, 08:41 PM

Can you qualify for item creation feats? If so, you can craft some useful wands (for UMD) using the Factotum's otherwise lackluster daily spells.
Can you qualify for [Reserve] feats with your spells? If you can, then I'd recommend Fiery Burst at level 6.
You want UMD (obviously), and your write-up talks about Knowledge skills; what other skills will you take?

I think the awareness skills and stealth ones are a good idea. Knowledge and sense motive seem to fit the character idea. Others will have to depend on party composition. Autohypnosis, Aijitsu, and tumbling might just keep me alive, so maybe those. It looks like I'll be an 18 Int Human with Nymph's kiss and it still all goes so quickly!

The one thing that a factotum does do pretty well is interact with the skill system. Iaijutsu is a decent little boost if you get the opportunity to use it but I wouldn't bother building around it. Knowledge with knowledge devotion is a solid option and knowing what's going on in the world doesn't hurt either. Beyond that, the stealth and perception skills can be fun if you can put them to proper use as can the social skills but you can't do everything even if you can do anything in this field. UMD is, of course, virtually mandatory. Just make sure you support whatever you do pick magically (via gear) to get the most out of it.

Good luck. Let us known how it goes.

Well, it is a crazy-skill-centric campaign/DM, so this is the best idea I've had for that (other than rogue and scout, each of which we already have). So hopefully this is a good idea. I will keep posting what happens. Likewise, continued advice is appreciated. :-)

DarkEternal

2018-08-28, 03:21 AM

I have played Factotum a few years ago 1-13 before the campaign fizzled. I had fun, because it was without stress for me, though my character had to basically be the mother to the entire party. You will be their face, their trap finder, their survivalist, their scout and at times their healer. What the previous poster said is that you are Mcgyver. You are supposed to have answers to everything, if not the necessary firepower to do it. The dice gods were very kind to me, so I had very high stats, but my factotum was more of a int-cha-dex hybrid (int being the main stat of course). Seriously, pump everything into int whenever you can, especially if you take Knowledge devotion (which you absolutely should). Brains over brawn is great because you basically can do 90 percent of skills better than anyone else, especially if you have some points in dex-strength to begin with since it adds up. Pump everything into stuff like Use Magic device, and as much knowledge skills as you can.

My weapon of choice (thematically) was a cane sword which is really not optimal, but it was fun. I had Iaijutsu focus, though to be frank,. I used it maybe a dozen times in combat so that was more flavorful, unless you go fully into ti with stuff like gnomish razors and making ways of having the enemy flatfooted. Otherwise, stuff like a ranged factotum works nicely as well with his inspiration points when you need to attack because with Knowledge devotion and your intelligence to damage, it adds up. You can also heal when the going gets tough. And it will get tough as it usually does. Like I said, dice gods were good to me, so it was not a paltry amount to heal when you really need it.

Feat wise, it was not really much of a brainer for me. Aside for said devotion, I'd pump at least two or three Fonts of inspiration to get a nice amount of inspiration points. I went into chameleon so I didn't get nymph kiss at level 1. You have to take that other feat at level 1 to get all skills as class skills.

Race wise, I went human, but really - when can you go wrong with human in 3.5 with regards to anything? Of the magic items you want to look in, of course - anything that boosts intelligence. I'd probably invest in one item whose name I can't remember now. Basically it goes on your hand, like a glove which can hold wands, five of them for each finger or something so you can get out whichever wand you wand among those five as a swift action I think. And wands are your friend with Factotum. From healing wands to the almighty Grease. Grease, ahhhh, the god of low level spells. Seriously. I think I used this when I was level 11 still on a frequent basis. If they fail the save great, if they don't, still good, since they are still flatfooted and move at half speed. With Factotum, I really can't tell you aside for that which spells to take. That is kind of the point of the character. Mix it up. Be fun. Don't rinse and repeat the same spells. I remember that I had stuff like grease always memorised, but I also had things that were fun in the moment. Like when my character's armor was destroyed by natural 1 on a fireball save. So he remembered some spell (that I can't remember, I think it was third level) which basically summons a natural armor that lasts an hour per level or something. You have some essential spells, but they are all good for wands as well.

I'd almost certainly look at a chameleon entry when you get cunning surge. So, basically, at about level 8, if you want to prestige, it is a good class to get into. some people say i t is not that good, but to me, it served me well. The truth of the matter is that it plays to the theme really well. You can choose what you want to be on that day and do it reasonably well. If you go all the way up to 20, you can make it shine fairly well. You will never be as good as a full caster, or hit as hard as a dedicated damage dealer or be as brawny as some, but you can make do with what you have to do all of those things reasonably, usually at the same time. You might have some problems due to the fact that you have a scout and a rogue who are also very skill dependent, especially because you will outshine them a lot of times. Especially if you use your inspiration to basically get a sick bonus in a roll of a skill. So...be wary of not stepping in the rogue's job or scout's which is kind of hard to do when you can do anything you want.

And I assure you, your DM will hate you because you will pass pretty much every skill check ever.

Willie the Duck

2018-08-28, 10:12 AM

My weapon of choice (thematically) was a cane sword which is really not optimal, but it was fun. I had Iaijutsu focus, though to be frank,. I used it maybe a dozen times in combat so that was more flavorful, unless you go fully into ti with stuff like gnomish razors and making ways of having the enemy flatfooted. Otherwise, stuff like a ranged factotum works nicely as well with his inspiration points when you need to attack because with Knowledge devotion and your intelligence to damage, it adds up.

I am trying to figure out again how one makes an opponent flat footed (there are a few skill tricks, and of course attacking from hiding). If I can't figure it out, I might not devotes skill points to Iaijutsu.

Feat wise, it was not really much of a brainer for me. Aside for said devotion, I'd pump at least two or three Fonts of inspiration to get a nice amount of inspiration points. I went into chameleon so I didn't get nymph kiss at level 1. You have to take that other feat at level 1 to get all skills as class skills.

I am going levels 1-20, so I might not bother with FoI (or able learner obviously). Nymph's Kiss seems good, as does Keen Intellect (to use Wis as a dump space). Knowledge devotion at 3. 6 and on is up in the air (weapon finesse? start down the point blank shot tree? Item creation?).

I'd almost certainly look at a chameleon entry when you get cunning surge.

I am thinking no PrCs. The campaign is very much of the 'do not make decisions strictly on mechanical synergy, only dip/PrC/multiclass as a means of developing a character type.' And I think the Factotum thematically fills its' own role without any dipping out.

I think I will make a separate thread on the party and what we are trying to achieve.
Thanks!

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2018-08-28, 11:55 AM

I am trying to figure out again how one makes an opponent flat footed (there are a few skill tricks, and of course attacking from hiding). If I can't figure it out, I might not devotes skill points to Iaijutsu.

Bag of Marbles, Arms and Equipment Guide
Ready it as a weaponlike object so you can quick-draw it, and it's a free action to drop it into an adjacent square.
If the creature in that square doesn't have at least five ranks in Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm), they're considered flat-footed while balancing.

Willie the Duck

2018-08-28, 02:31 PM

Bag of Marbles, Arms and Equipment Guide
Ready it as a weaponlike object so you can quick-draw it, and it's a free action to drop it into an adjacent square.
If the creature in that square doesn't have at least five ranks in Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm), they're considered flat-footed while balancing.

Boy, if I had a devastating craven rogue or the like, that would seem almost cheap. :smallyuk:
Boosting an Iaijutsu factotum, otoh, it sounds like a delight. :smallbiggrin:

Sleven

2018-08-28, 07:56 PM

In my opinion Iaijutsu Focus can be a great help if you either:
a) want to be a focused damage dealer
b) don't want to be a focused damage dealer but want to have an inexpensive way to boost your damage

If you picked "b", like I often do when playing factotum, Iaijutsu Focus is probably the (or one of the) only boosts you have to your damage.

It's pretty easy to get means of total concealment and use that to stay constantly hidden, thus making opponents constantly flat-footed against you (thanks to Rules Compendium). You don't even really have to invest in hide, just make meaningless hide checks, take the Darkstalker feat, and call it a day.

Darkstalker is probably a mandatory feat if you want to face serious threats, btw. Try and get your DM to buff it to work vs things like Mindsight and Touchsight, otherwise it might not always be of use.

Another thing I like to do when I play factotum is take [Divine] feats like Sacred Vitality, Law Devotion, Travel Devotion, etc. (although watch the # of devotion feats you take, as you are limited to far less than a cleric). They're obtainable once you hit level 5 and get Opportunistic Piety (thanks to virtual prerequisite rules). This helps me get use out of the class feature (as Wisdom is usually a dump stat for me on factotum).

You might also want to consider using Brain Over Brawns to make yourself a spiked chain tripper or other form of battlefield controller if you don't plan on being "the damage guy" or don't want to mess around with Iaijutsu Focus. The feats there are Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Knock-down. This can be expanded further, but if you take it too far, you end up having no feats for anything else. Another reason why I've never particularly liked the "tripper" factotum until I hit level 19 and got it "for free".

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2018-08-28, 11:35 PM

Sleven

2018-08-29, 01:33 AM

Oh yea, reading through your other posts:

1) Nymph's Kiss isn't really worth it unless you plan on playing a social/face factotum who's a paragon of all that is good and righteous. If you do, it is really good. If you don't... well you don't need it. If I had to pick one reason not to take it? It's an [Exalted] feat. Being exalted can quickly suck the fun right out of your character if you're forced to play it by the book.

2) Knowledge Devotion isn't that good unless you plan on maxing out your knowledge checks and using attacks a lot in fights (e.g. you're an archer/manyshot build) or intend on making an ability damage build. If you just want to dip knowledge to get trained rolls... it's not worth a factotum's precious few feats.

The moral of the story?

Factotums are like binders in that just picking "good" feats can actually make you end up weak. What you need to look for is synergy across your intended play-style, skills, and gear. Then choose the feats that benefit those things last.

Also be aware that a large number of skills only require a few points in them to be effective most of the time (e.g. Open Lock). Others will hit their threshold around 10-12 points, some 5. Others keep on giving the more points you put into them (e.g. Use Magic Device). Plan your skills out fairly carefully and look at synergy bonuses to make the most of them.

Willie the Duck

2018-08-29, 06:20 AM

If going with Iaijutsu Focus, be sure to use a Gnome Quickrazor (RoS). It's 'drawn' on every attack, thus enabling IF on every attack if the opponent is flat-footed.

You can use a Gnome race (PHB version, Air Gnome (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfAir), Whisper Gnome in RoS, etc.) and use the weapon familiarity rule in Complete Warrior p154 to treat the Quickrazor as a martial weapon instead of the default gnome hooked hammer. Whisper Gnome is a superb choice, especially if you plan on using any stealth skills.

A by-the-book excellent choice. Whisper gnome is my preferred incarnation of gnomes. I do not trust that my DM will make that CW, p.154-backed ruling. He might see it as cheeze (and I approve of his anti-cheeze position in general, or else I'd be considering cloistered cleric or the like for my skillmonkey, not a factotum :smallbiggrin:)

1) Nymph's Kiss isn't really worth it unless you plan on playing a social/face factotum who's a paragon of all that is good and righteous. If you do, it is really good. If you don't... well you don't need it. If I had to pick one reason not to take it? It's an [Exalted] feat. Being exalted can quickly suck the fun right out of your character if you're forced to play it by the book.

I don't think I'd get a lot of pushback on it being exalted, so long as I stayed good. I am on the fence about it. It is one SP per level (not even with 4 at first), and a +2 on social skills, UMD, and Iaijutsu. Probably subpar. I guess it depends on just how valuable more skill points on top of an already skillful character would be.

2) Knowledge Devotion isn't that good unless you plan on maxing out your knowledge checks and using attacks a lot in fights (e.g. you're an archer/manyshot build) or intend on making an ability damage build. If you just want to dip knowledge to get trained rolls... it's not worth a factotum's precious few feats.

Looking at this again, it seems to be mostly +1 - +3 for much of the first half of the game (maxed out skill with 18 Int and collector of stories at 5th level is +17, making +3 routine-but-not-guaranteed). This is on par with some of my other ideas, but not superior.

The moral of the story?

Factotums are like binders in that just picking "good" feats can actually make you end up weak. What you need to look for is synergy across your intended play-style, skills, and gear. Then choose the feats that benefit those things last.

My thoughts on feats included:
Craven (if dip rogue)
Keen Intellect (to dump wis)
Knowledge Devotion
Nymph’s Kiss
Point Blank, Precise, and Rapid Shot
Quickdraw or EWP (Quickrazor) (depending on melee vs. ranged)
Weapon Finesse (to dump str, if melee)

The ones for dumping a stat if needed, of course. If you had insights on better ideas, I am all ears. Thanks!

Also be aware that a large number of skills only require a few points in them to be effective most of the time (e.g. Open Lock). Others will hit their threshold around 10-12 points, some 5. Others keep on giving the more points you put into them (e.g. Use Magic Device). Plan your skills out fairly carefully and look at synergy bonuses to make the most of them.

Oh, believe me-- I will be looking for synergy and which ones I only need to get to 5 and such. This will be a skill-intensive campaign, and out-planning the DM will be half the fun. :smallbiggrin:

bean illus

2018-08-30, 02:09 PM

Honestly, talk your dm into Font of Inspiration, unless your average tier is 4-5. Without it factotum lacks punch. And it won't break the game, because facto is so feat starved you can only take it a few times. I reccomend 3x, which is 12x+/day, and fuels cunning insight.

. Whisper gnome is my preferred incarnation of gnomes.

It is one SP per level (not even with 4 at first), and a +2 on social skills, UMD, and Iaijutsu. Probably subpar. I guess it depends on just how valuable more skill points on top of an already skillful character would be.
I would pass on nymph's kiss unless it's a high umd campaign. You won't need the points (I'll address that more below).

Looking at this again, it seems to be mostly +1 - +3 for much of the first half of the game (maxed out skill with 18 Int and collector of stories at 5th level is +17, making +3 routine-but-not-guaranteed). This is on par with some of my other ideas, but not superior.
It's +5 to hit AND damage. Pretty much always, whether mellee, range, spell, touch. It's an insight bonus, so stacks with cunning insight's competence bonus.

And.. you'll be investing in all of those skills anyway. For one, a successful knowledge roll allows you to meta game your books, so you will always know the resistances and abilities of your enemies. For two, there's all these neat little tricks.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279815-Uses-for-the-knowledge-and-profession-skill-in-the-3-5-system
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514547-The-Library-of-Knowledge-Getting-the-most-out-of-your-studies
Remember, a facto20 can use cunning knowledge to easily get +60 pre-epic.

My thoughts on feats included:
Craven (if dip rogue)
Keen Intellect (to dump wis)
Knowledge Devotion
Nymph’s Kiss
Point Blank, Precise, and Rapid Shot
Quickdraw or EWP (Quickrazor) (depending on melee vs. ranged)
Weapon Finesse (to dump str, if melee)

The ones for dumping a stat if needed, of course. If you had insights on better ideas, I am all ears. Thanks!

I would not go rogue or ranged. Brains over Brawn is the bread and butter of a low op facto. It's nearly the only class ability they have that doesn't cost Inspiration. A rogue dip gives skill points you don't need and a situational 1d6 you aren't optimized for. Ranged needs 3-4 feats in a lesser stat, with med BAB, and ignoring BoB.

BoB gives you +Int+Str to touch attacks on trip and grapple. At fifth level you get self-healing @ level×2+Int, so you're a bit more durable than some other d8 classes (when boosted you can heal as many hp as a rogue has).
+2 Str, +4 Int, +4 KnD, +4 Imp Trip = +15 against touch (pre-boost) @ 5th.
And BoB boost initiative. You're ALWAYS 1st. You ALWAYS get surprise. So in the first round you're touching against flat-footed.

One level of monk gets a bonus feat (combat expertise?), unarmed strike, all good saves, and qualifies for Carmendine Monk feat, which nets Int to AC (vs touch!) and +10' movement. This stacks with the 16th lvl Imp Cunning Defense, giving about +24AC.
Get a guisarme, for tripping at a distance, and IUS up close.
Or one level of wizard (abrupt jaunt acf) gives 10+ teleport Int/day, and a handful of BFC/etc. Or take both, since you would use it the whole 20 levels, but cunning brilliance only comes on at the very end.

Human: 14, 14, 12 - 18, 8, 8
Combat Reflexes

1. Facto: (Open Feat)
2. Monk: Combat Expertise, Imp Unarm Strike
3. Imp Trip
6. Know Devo
9. Knockdown
12. Imp Grapple (or Open)

I leave grappling out until you get some magic touch options/etc. You wouldn't be able to wrestle dragons, but you can level of field of mooks, or interrupt the actions of most humanoid casters.

Power attack can also work with this via BoB and Cunning Insight (in theory, i haven't looked at it close).
Cunning Insight should not be underrated. For an IP you get a nearly guaranteed hit. Find your favorite magic item or spell to apply pain, and repeat as necessary. Hell, even another IP for cunning insight damage works.
It also eliminates the need for Keen intellect, or other dump stat modifiers.

Oh, believe me-- I will be looking for synergy and which ones I only need to get to 5 and such. This will be a skill-intensive campaign, and out-planning the DM will be half the fun. :smallbiggrin:

If you REALLY think it a skill heavy campaign, maybe take nymph's kiss and grey elf. An extra 40 skill points and there won't be anything you can't do, lol.

Either way, don't forget cunning knowledge. Many skills will rarely need used more than once a day. CK and BoB gives Int+lvl to ... say ... astronomy, or heal, or swim, or craft arrows, use rope, appraise, escape artist, forgery and many other uses.
An "amazing lock" has a DC of 40, and your final CK+BoB bonus will exceed 30+Dex.

Many other skills are not Int based, but rarely needed more than 1/day. Your Wis and/or Cha dumps will barely be noticed with your growing level bonus on situational skills like gather info, survival, or sense motive, and would be partially mitigated by nymphs kiss.

You'll start with 40+ points, and get 10-20 points every level. You'll net 340 sp, and get +10 to about 30 skills.

Get clear with your dm what they'll accept for take 10, or take 20.

Willie the Duck

2018-08-30, 02:54 PM

I see what you mean about feat starved. You didn't have room for 3 Font of inspirations either!

I will ask about skills and DM rulings.

bean illus

2018-08-30, 07:20 PM

I see what you mean about feat starved. You didn't have room for 3 Font of inspirations either!

I will ask about skills and DM rulings.
If you start talking yourself out of facto 20 you might consider that cunning brilliance (for all it's glitter) doesn't come on until level 19.

A simple but classic and effective build is
Facto3/Wizard1/Monk2/Facto(17)

It nets another feat.
Also possible: trade scribe scroll for fighter feat -(comp champ?)

Grey elf
12, 14, 12 - 20, 8, 8

1. Facto- nymph's kiss
2. Facto-
3. Monk- combat expertise, IUS, FoI
4. Monk- imp trip
5. Wiz- abrupt jaunt, combat reflexes
6. Know devo
9. Power attack? Imp grapple?
12. FoI
15. Knockdown
18. FoI

I'm looking forward to seeing what you put together. Please post whatever you decide here? Especially if you make a ranged build.

Nifft

2018-08-31, 01:07 AM

If you're not going Factotum 20 then I'd suggest:

Factotum 3 / Monk 2 (Invisible Fist) / Chameleon 10 / ____ 5

That leaves you room to complete Factotum 8 and thus get both class features.

If you don't want to be Lawful, there's always Barbarian 2 -- good ACFs are UA Wolf Totem (for Improved Trip), CC Lion Spirit Totem (for Pounce), and UA Whirling Frenzy.

If you don't want to be angry, there's always Warblade 2 -- after 2 Factotum, before the 3rd Factotum, so you can pick up one level 2 Maneuver.

Willie the Duck

2018-08-31, 07:14 AM

A simple but classic and effective build is
Facto3/Wizard1/Monk2/Facto(17)

I'm looking forward to seeing what you put together. Please post whatever you decide here? Especially if you make a ranged build.

It will be a while, as our current game (a Mad Max-esque game using a homebrew system) is winding down. As I get a stronger bead on what everyone else will be doing and what the DM's inevitable long list of house rules are.

If you're not going Factotum 20 then I'd suggest:

Factotum 3 / Monk 2 (Invisible Fist) / Chameleon 10 / ____ 5
<and more ideas>

I appreciate both of your efforts, and on a technical level, I am sure you are both right. However, you both are suggesting levels of dipping I will not be able to achieve. The gaming style we are playing is the kind where you have to reasonably justify your dips (and not with, "well, I really want this and that power because it makes my build better").

I have 2 fairly concrete character concepts (both framed on Factotum as medieval professor/Indiana Jones expy). The first is a kooky pseudo-Germanic professor who amuses the local lords with lots of amusing anecdotes about his trips 'to the East.'
Prof: “ve were voken every morning before the cockatrice crowed, and sent on an eight mile run. I have no idea vy eight miles, but apparently it brinks ‘auspicious’ tidingks! Den vi vere allowed to eat our breakfast of boiled grasshooopers, all ze vhile being bitten by mildly venomous snakes!”
Baron: “To help you slowly build up immunity to their venom?”
Prof: “Oh, dat’s a vunderful idea! I should write to zem und suggest dat!”
That would justify a factotum with a dip into Carmendine monk.

The other idea is the same character type outwards, but he's a complete fraud. The real professor died in the East and this guy has been impersonating him. That would justify a factotum but starting with a level of rogue. That, thematically, was my favorite idea, but I'm buying that perhaps I'm not set up for a sneak attack build -- although I'm not sure that a trip build doesn't have just as many limitations: such as flying opponents (although I suppose that's what the spellcasters and rangers are for).

bean illus

2018-08-31, 11:52 AM

Factotum 3 / Monk 2 (Invisible Fist) / Chameleon 10 / ____ 5

I knew that wasn't gonna fly. That build approaches high op. Fa8/M2/Ch10 is a beast. Low/mid tier 2. It's one of my current faves.

... We are looking to play low optimization, with lots of single-class high-tier classes and low tier classes only in flavorful multiclasses (so no straight wizards for example, but a wizard-rogue-AT might happen). Certainly not a lot of loopholing or optimization shenanigans and such. ... How should I go about this and make the character playable? I have no expectation that iajitsu will be an option,
I tried to follow this. Three classes, mostly facto. All core or common sources. No shenanigans...

As I get a stronger bead on what everyone else will be doing... However, you both are suggesting levels of dipping I will not be able to achieve.

That would justify a factotum with a dip into Carmendine monk.

Let's look.

I've rearranged it to fit PHB/etc

A simple but classic and effective build is
Facto2/Monk2/Wiz1/Facto(17)

Grey elf
12, 14, 12 - 20, 8, 8

1. Facto- nymph's kiss
2. Facto-
3. Monk- Imp grapple, IUS, carmendine monk
4. Monk- combat reflexes
5. Wiz- abrupt jaunt, combat expertise
6. Imp trip
9. Know devo
12. FoI (open?)
15. Knockdown (open?)
18. FoI (open?)

Grey elf isn't necessarily.

1. Facto and NK are yours.
3. Carmendine seems acceptable to you?
4. Imp Gr and CR are PHB
5. Martial wiz is SRD, AJ is PHBll
9. KD is your idea
12. Y'all can work out FoI later ...
15. The rest is details ... facto!

So the question is a 1 level core wizard dip on a facto? That seems like an easy and convincing back story.

This build is not overpowered. You have ways to hurt things, but not endless power to annihilate things. You have high level spell access, but rather limited. You have ways to avoid being hit, but by no means are impossible to hit/hurt.
(Btw, AJ is Int/day 10'. so quite limited)

It's barely stronger than a straight facto.
In fact, i would bet money you aren't the strongest party member, lol.

Honestly, my DMs always get tired of a facto's skill access faster than they tire of abrupt jaunt. Reason being, that when you're in melee it's still melee. There are still ways to hurt you, and everyone's still fighting.
But facto skill dominance is so complete that anyone else who isn't optimized for skills is literally inconsequential. Your final skill access is +60 to EVERYTHING that matters, and + 15-30 in EVERYTHING else.

perhaps I'm not set up for a sneak attack build -- although I'm not sure that a trip build doesn't have just as many limitations: such as flying opponents
You have fly. And enlarge person . And grapple. And BoB. Pardon me for saying so, but that b**** is coming down.

One difference between sneak attack and trip on this build, is that at least facto has class features that support tripping/grappling/touch attacks/spells.

From all I can tell, cunning Insight is absolutely useless. 3.5 damage for 1 inspiration is nonsense.

I have thought of doing a facto with an 18 charisma and a 14 intelligence. Sense motive and Bluff would be fun with +60.

Willie the Duck

2018-08-31, 12:10 PM

So the question is a 1 level core wizard dip on a facto? That seems like an easy and convincing back story.

In short, "An X, who started out with a level of Y" is pretty reasonable. Even though here I'm talking about starting out as a rogue (the first thing everyone did when they got PHB 3.0 when it came out and saw that you got 32+ skill points), it isn't that cheap because it is 'character background' (not unlike backgrounds in 5e). Same with the guy who spent some time in the east and gets 1-2 levels of monk before becoming a professor. Stopping mid-stride for a single level of wizard, and then going right back to being your main class? That's a dip. I know what it is, my DM knows it, we all know what I did. I dipped for a specific class feature. We are theoretically not going to play that way.

One difference between sneak attack and trip on this build, is that at least facto has class features that support tripping/grappling/touch attacks/spells.

From all I can tell, cunning Insight is absolutely useless. 3.5 damage for 1 inspiration is nonsense.

Yeah, I agree. I wasn't thinking of using it much or at all. A single level of rogue, plus craven, plus Iaijutsu Focus (which is brought up a lot in discussions related to factotum), plus some potentially great sneak skills seemed like a great reason to focus on catching opponents flat-footed.

bean illus

2018-08-31, 01:54 PM

Stopping mid-stride for a single level of wizard, and then going right back to being your main class? That's a dip. I know what it is, my DM knows it, we all know what I did. I dipped for a specific class feature. We are theoretically not going to play that way.

You can use those definitions if you want them. I see a guy with a few 'spells' who thinks 'Spells are cool! I could do this!', but then decides being a wiz 'didn't inspire me'. Facto specifically seems eclectic.

I'd probably advise it even without AJ. The basic utility is worth it.

Yeah, I agree. I wasn't thinking of using it much or at all. A single level of rogue, plus craven, plus Iaijutsu Focus (which is brought up a lot in discussions related to factotum), plus some potentially great sneak skills seemed like a great reason to focus on catching opponents flat-footed.
I thought you ruled out IF in the first post.

I went to x stat = y bonus
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus

... looking for something archer ish, or roguish. ... didn't find any surprises.

Facto18/monk2 would be fine at many tables power levels.

Willie the Duck

2018-08-31, 02:18 PM

I thought you ruled out IF in the first post.

I don't know if it will be allowable. I just still had 'stealth guy who stabs flat-footed opponents' as my mental model for how these guys contribute to combat (other than spells). In other words, I was mentally stuck in a rut.

Facto18/monk2 would be fine at many tables power levels.

I think it is definitely a plausible way to go. I will also ponder how (and if) a roguish type would work, and if a ranged type. Hopefully one will suggest itself as the most reasonable course of action as the rest of the party is formed and the role-play world in which we inhabit shapes up.

Sleven

2018-08-31, 03:20 PM

That's a dip. I know what it is, my DM knows it, we all know what I did. I dipped for a specific class feature. We are theoretically not going to play that way.

Dipping is one of the lowest levels of "optimization" you can do anyways. I wouldn't ban it at any table. Most of the time, there's something better you could have done instead of dipping.

If we're being honest here, the dip he recommended to you is terrible anyways. A single item that costs less than 6000 gp can give you the abrupt jaunt class feature + more cool stuff. You already have a slower version of wizard casting and UMD, so you don't need the dip for wands and scrolls either.

Yeah, I agree. I wasn't thinking of using it much or at all. A single level of rogue, plus craven, plus Iaijutsu Focus (which is brought up a lot in discussions related to factotum), plus some potentially great sneak skills seemed like a great reason to focus on catching opponents flat-footed.

It's not that that's the only way for them to contribute in combat, it's that they're feat starved and that's the least feat intensive way to contribute in combat. If your DM is going to ban Iaijutsu Focus, they're basically forcing you to spend ~1/2+ your feats on combat crap (or multiclass) instead of being able to create cool synergies with your other class features. Which is sad.

I think it is definitely a plausible way to go. I will also ponder how (and if) a roguish type would work, and if a ranged type. Hopefully one will suggest itself as the most reasonable course of action as the rest of the party is formed and the role-play world in which we inhabit shapes up.

If you want to play a roguetotum, I recommend taking 3 levels of rogue for penetrating strike or lightbringer rogue ACF, then grabbing the Maiming Strike and Craven feats. You can even trade away the Trapfinding ability on one of your classes for an ACF. The rest of your levels can be factotum or whatever else you want. This lets you do 1+character level charisma damage whenever you make a sneak attack instead of doing "normal" sneak attack damage. If you plan on doing any amount of stealth related things (not necessarily to apply sneak attack), take the Darkstalker feat. The rest of your feats should be invested into covering other bases or used for Font of Inspiration.

If you aren't thinking about doing a 100% factotum build, there are a lot of options. Monk is one such option, but you're actually better off going Factotum 3 / Monk 7 than the reverse (assuming you're allowed to take alternative class features). Factotums have great breakpoints at levels 3 and 8 if you don't want to "dip". Another favorite of mine is a non-gestalt factotum of war build: Factotum 8 / Warblade 6 / Legacy Champion 6. You get 9th level warblade maneuvers, +16 BAB, the better half of the factotum's class features, and a legacy weapon (that you can choose to upgrade or not).

But really, none of us can help you until you're 100% clear on what exactly you want to play. Otherwise we're just throwing out suggestions and hoping something sticks. And so far nothing has.

Kelb_Panthera

2018-08-31, 05:57 PM

I don't know if it will be allowable. I just still had 'stealth guy who stabs flat-footed opponents' as my mental model for how these guys contribute to combat (other than spells). In other words, I was mentally stuck in a rut.

Yeah, factotums aren't good at that. They're not particularly good at anything by design. I actually think the class write-up in dungeonscape says as much.

The class' whole schtick is that he can do just enough of everything to step into the breach for a moment when you -really- need "that thing" whatever it happens to be. It's very, very solidly in "support class" territory. Playing the class well means embracing that rather than trying to work around it.

bean illus

2018-08-31, 09:10 PM

I had 'stealth guy who stabs flat-footed opponents' as my mental model for how these guys contribute to combat.

I will also ponder how (and if) a roguish type would work, and if a ranged type.

Stealth is super easy for facto, and so is getting opponents flat footed. The problem is how to damage/affect the opponent.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?269705-Toxophilite-The-Archery-Handbook

Perhaps a MAD spread?
12, 16, 12 - 16, 8, 12

Willie the Duck

2018-08-31, 10:43 PM

But really, none of us can help you until you're 100% clear on what exactly you want to play. Otherwise we're just throwing out suggestions and hoping something sticks. And so far nothing has.

You're not wrong there. Probably should have launched this thread when I knew more about the campaign.
Let's start with the one based on the character I most like: the imposter- rogue is magically given the face or, and is impersonating, a respected professor, and slowly learns the professor's schtick (first to keep up the guise, and then because he likes the lifestyle). Human or whisper gnome Rogue1, Factotum 1-19. Yes to Iaijutsu, and Nymph's Kiss at L1.

Stealth is super easy for facto, and so is getting opponents flat footed. The problem is how to damage/affect the opponent.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?269705-Toxophilite-The-Archery-Handbook

Perhaps a MAD spread?
12, 16, 12 - 16, 8, 12

I won't have control over the stat spread, as we'll be doing best 3 of 4D6, arrange to taste.
That's a pretty extensive thread with a lot of sub-links. Was there something in particular I was to look at? Thanks!

bean illus

2018-09-01, 11:41 PM

You're not wrong there. Probably should have launched this thread when I knew more about the campaign.
It takes time. You probably didn't start too early.

Human or whisper gnome Rogue1, Factotum 1-19. Yes to Iaijutsu, and Nymph's Kiss at L1.
....
That's a pretty extensive thread with a lot of sub-links. Was there something in particular I was to look at? Thanks!
You kept saying ranged attack. I was looking for facto synergies.

Didn't find any.

I like building factos. It's one of my favorites. I would be happy to learn a ranged trick ... but ...

Ranged damage is largely about multiple attacks, and multple hits. Facto 19 has BAB 14, and only 2 iteratives. Compared to rangers 20 BAB and 4 attacks... well ...

Ranged takes 2 stats, and neither is primary for facto. It also needs full attack, which means skirmish (which your build can't get), or maybe ...

Shot On The Run [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit
When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack

But your still hitting at -6 to the ranger, who gets 3+ free feats, and niche spells, many more attacks, and primary stats ...

The razor thing works. It's cheesy. It's also a Cha skill, which is ... not Int.
Now you have a low BAB, low AC, low HP frontliner with no FoI?

There's a lot i don't know, and i wouldn't be surprised if someone shows us a trick i dont know.

Willie the Duck

2018-09-02, 10:37 PM

Yeah, I'm not finding any. They can do the pepper-'em-with-shots thing as well as any other feat-starved 3/4 bab MAD class with a minor ability to raise to-hit or damage on individual shots a limited number of times per battle -- which is to say poorly.

Honestly speaking, from a combat perspective, access to skills (so iaijutsu, plus the stealth skills) and Int to trip/grapple/disarm seems to be their defining abilities.

I get how trip+iaijutsu works for the monk combo. For the rogue-combo I'd like, I guess it'd be mostly attacking from hiding, huh? Maybe some of the skill trick abilities to make someone flatfooted (at the cost of fast draw feat) might work, but mostly it'd be sneaking (in which case it just becomes a really convoluted rogue, but with Int and some spells). Hmmm...

bean illus

2018-09-03, 12:12 AM

Honestly speaking, from a combat perspective, access to skills (so iaijutsu, plus the stealth skills) and Int to trip/grapple/disarm seems to be their defining abilities.
Intimidate and bluff are both skills that can be melee skills, and facto can do em both pretty darn well. Also know devo.
Cunning insight is available every fight.

I get how trip+iaijutsu works for the monk combo. For the rogue-combo I'd like, I guess it'd be mostly attacking from hiding, huh? Maybe some of the skill trick abilities to make someone flatfooted (at the cost of fast draw feat) might work, but mostly it'd be sneaking (in which case it just becomes a really convoluted rogue, but with Int and some spells). Hmm

.. and no SA.

Facto3/Rogue17?

Willie the Duck

2018-09-03, 11:40 AM

Intimidate and bluff are both skills that can be melee skills, and facto can do em both pretty darn well. Also know devo.
Cunning insight is available every fight.

A true statement.

.. and no SA.
Facto3/Rogue17?

Seems like Monk2/Facto3/Rogue15 with able learner (knock people over, make them cower, or attack from stealth, then max on IF, SA, craven, and a minimal amount of Facto adds) kind of maxes out the concept. It's frustrating that a Facto20 build is so hard/underwhelming, but I guess winners and losers are a fact of life with 3e.

bean illus

2018-09-03, 04:06 PM

It's frustrating that a Facto20 build is so hard/underwhelming, but I guess winners and losers are a fact of life with 3e.

Facto is fine in a low/mid op game. Solid T3 with FoI.

The problem, friend, is that you keep insisting what you want is called facto.

You can have what you want (skills, stealth, ranged, SA, etc) a dozen ways, it's just not facto20.

Maybe ... have a talk with your players, and dm...
... then list 'what you want to be able to do', without putting a class name.
Then we can build that. ? ?

Or.. accept the build offered? Take the outline to your folks n ask em? There is nothing 'too weak' or 'too strong' or 'too cheesy' about the Int build offered. It just doesn't SA with manyshot.
And why does your prussian professor want to manyshot SA, anyway? Tripping and double-tap when they're prone sounds much more Indiana Jones nerd, to me.

Ya know who can stealth, skill, SA, manyshot, nymph's kiss, know devo, UMD, and your dm can't object too? Fighter2/rogue18.

1 Human rogue Feat, Feat
2. Fighter Feat
3. F/Feat, Feat
4. Rogue

Add Scout, call it a prussian professor. ? ?
*****

Facto8/monk2/rogue10?
Monk2/fighter2/facto16?

Nifft

2018-09-03, 05:33 PM

Seems like Monk2/Facto3/Rogue15 with able learner (knock people over, make them cower, or attack from stealth, then max on IF, SA, craven, and a minimal amount of Facto adds) kind of maxes out the concept. It's frustrating that a Facto20 build is so hard/underwhelming, but I guess winners and losers are a fact of life with 3e.

3.x has consistently rewarded specialization, so a class that's intentionally not specialized can be expected to suck -- and the Factotum delivers on that expectation.

To me the super-frustrating thing is that the Factotum doesn't even excel as a generalist. You can't swap around your skills or feats, so you can't change day-to-day from a dashing acrobat swordsman to a sturdy hammer-and-anvil shield-tank. Chameleon can do that, so it's mechanically within the design space for the edition -- but the supposed uber-generalist is forced to specialize.

The biggest let-down is that Factotum promises to be a jack-of-all-trades, but actually it's very specialized in a small number of mechanically questionable areas:
- BoB is good, but only if you have something non-Factotum to actually do something with it.
- UMD is good, but you're not as good at UMD as a Warlock or Cha-based class.
- Extra standard actions would be good, but you don't actually get any unless your DM re-writes the text of the ability to be functional, and if you're going to need to beg your DM to re-write a class then why not start with a better class?
- You're supposed to be good at "all the skills" but practically you're only going to be good at the ones you buy up (until level 10+ or so, when you're good at each skill 1/day). So you're specialized in a fixed list of skills.

Classes that are better generalists than the Factotum:
- Incarnate, especially hybrid Soulcaster or Soulmanifester.
- Binder, especially hybrid like Anima Mage.
- Beguiler, especially with a list-enhancement dip like Sand Shaper.
- Bard, especially with ACFs and splatbook spells (e.g. Improvisation).
- Chameleon, even if you don't go hard into cheesy spellcasting.
- Artificer, and notably even a no-cheese, RAI-strict Artificer can easily be a better party-support character.

Willie the Duck

2018-09-03, 06:50 PM

Or.. accept the build offered? Take the outline to your folks n ask em? There is nothing 'too weak' or 'too strong' or 'too cheesy' about the Int build offered. It just doesn't SA with manyshot.
And why does your prussian professor want to manyshot SA, anyway? Tripping and double-tap when they're prone sounds much more Indiana Jones nerd, to me.

:smallconfused: I don't know why you think my prussian professor wants to Sneak Attack with Manyshot. I never said yes to manyshot, and did not include SA with any ranged builds discussed.
I was looking at ways that a build could contribute in combat, and came upon 3 ideas:
trip people up with improved trip/grapple/disarm, and then whack them (potentially with IF or SA)
attack people from hiding with Int+Dex to stealth skills (potentially with IF or SA)
ranged attack (appears to have no synergy, so a failed idea).

Beyond that, the Facto appears to be similar to a bard or the like, no raw combat prowress like fighters or ToB classes (or cheezed up clerics or druids), no SA, but no other, clear and obvious method of upping one's combat game.

The biggest let-down is that Factotum promises to be a jack-of-all-trades, but actually it's very specialized in a small number of mechanically questionable areas:
- BoB is good, but only if you have something non-Factotum to actually do something with it.
- UMD is good, but you're not as good at UMD as a Warlock or Cha-based class.
- Extra standard actions would be good, but you don't actually get any unless your DM re-writes the text of the ability to be functional, and if you're going to need to beg your DM to re-write a class then why not start with a better class?
- You're supposed to be good at "all the skills" but practically you're only going to be good at the ones you buy up (until level 10+ or so, when you're good at each skill 1/day). So you're specialized in a fixed list of skills.

FoI (which seems to be a real author-saving-throw for the class) makes them decent combat-nova types, with a nice +Int whereever you need it. If the base class had more things to use those +s upon, or more feats to buy up things like the trip chain and like without dipping out, I think it would feel easier.

bean illus

2018-09-03, 07:45 PM

Extra standard actions would be good, but you don't actually get any unless your DM re-writes the text of the ability to be functional, and if you're going to need to beg your DM to re-write a class then why not start with a better class?
Oh, c'mon. It's not hard to know what CS is supposed to do.

You're supposed to be good at "all the skills" but practically you're only going to be good at the ones you buy up (until level 10+ or so, when you're good at each skill 1/day). So you're specialized in a fixed list of skills.
This is an inaccurate assessment.

Between the class skills (all), Int focus of the character, and BoB, facto exceeds all others.

A rilkan rogue with 18 int (lol) would have 14x6=84 sp @ 3rd.
A facto at 3rd ... 10x6=60 sp ... but ...

BoB ADDS Int to 12? skills. That totals 48 extra SP (which is a scaling bonus). 60+48=108.

After 3rd the rilkans 'advantage' in numbers only continues if he maintains a narrow Int focus for 20 levels (lol). Assuming so, he exceeds the facto by 4/lvl. After 20 levels an Int SAD RR would gain 23×4=112 more than a facto.

But every Int bonus facto gets is worth 12 SP in BoB. At the predicted +12ish final bonus facto totals 144 BoB SP.

Facto beats by 30+SP, against the theoretical Int SAD RR (lol. sry, i can't stop laughing at that).

***
And that's without cunning knowledge, which works fantastically on MANY, MANY situations, and is eventually worth 3-500+ points or more.

A facto gets 300+ SP. That's 10+ maxed skills, plenty for every synergy, and SCORES of single point skills with maybe 1 point.

Facto is tier 3 (maybe 4 done w/o BoB. It's not Chameleon or Binder or etc. But ragging on CS or claiming facto doesn't dominate skills is silly.

bean illus

2018-09-03, 08:14 PM

:smallconfused: I don't know why you think my prussian professor wants to Sneak Attack with Manyshot. I never said yes to manyshot, and did not include SA with any ranged builds discussed.
I was looking at ways that a build could contribute in combat, and came upon 3 ideas:
trip people up with improved trip/grapple/disarm, and then whack them (potentially with IF or SA)
attack people from hiding with Int+Dex to stealth skills (potentially with IF or SA)
ranged attack (appears to have no synergy, so a failed idea).

Beyond that, the Facto appears to be similar to a bard or the like, no raw combat prowress like fighters or ToB classes (or cheezed up clerics or druids), no SA, but no other, clear and obvious method of upping one's combat game.
I wasn't trying to quote you. It was only a vague approximation of some things said.

Your factomonkrogue would make a fun build, but with no spell access. Don't underestimate the factos final spell access. Though not numerous in total, 8 6th lvl spells is nothing to ignore.

FoI (which seems to be a real author-saving-throw for the class) makes them decent combat-nova types, with a nice +Int whereever you need it. If the base class had more things to use those +s upon, or more feats to buy up things like the trip chain and like without dipping out, I think it would feel easier.

Again I say, use facto where it works. Don't expect it to shine in a T1 or T2 game.
But Nova is not quite how I think of it. Remember that facto gains inspiration every encounter. I usually hear Nova as a term for a once-a-day blow your wad attack.

Of course, I'm just trying to help. I find it discouraging when I start a thread, and get one or two responses, but then no follow-up.

Willie the Duck

2018-09-03, 08:32 PM

I wasn't trying to quote you. It was only a vague approximation of some things said.

Your factomonkrogue would make a fun build, but with no spell access. Don't underestimate the factos final spell access. Though not numerous in total, 8 6th lvl spells is nothing to ignore.

And there is probably the rub. Like the bard, this thing wants to be a caster, a skill-based entity, and some kind of fighter. Much like the bard, when you actually get it to work, it takes some hefting (potentially cheesy). And yes, maybe I am over-expecting from a T3.

Again I say, use facto where it works. Don't expect it to shine in a T1 or T2 game.
But Nova is not quite how I think of it. Remember that facto gains inspiration every encounter. I usually hear Nova as a term for a once-a-day blow your wad attack.

Of course, I'm just trying to help. I find it discouraging when I start a thread, and get one or two responses, but then no follow-up.

Nova might not be the right word, but you are burning limited encounter-level supplies to get pluses to hit, damage, or contested rolls that a straight fighter type might just have higher numbers to begin with.

And I do appreciate the responses. Few others have stuck with (this frankly pretty niche request), and yes I am perhaps an unsatisfiable customer since maybe this class is looking a little less like what I was hoping for. Thanks!

Sleven

2018-09-03, 09:03 PM

Actually, Factotum 20 is significantly better than Rogue 20, but--you know--people forget that factotums can cast up to 7th level spells.

The biggest problem a factotum faces is that they can't do some of their more powerful things (like spells) that many times in a day. Even then, they have to think up obscure spell, ability, and feat combos that fit with the mish-mash of things they are given. It makes it really hard to just play "simply". Even when you are familiar with a few interesting combos they can pull, it turns out there aren't as many as you would have liked, and they're in all sorts of weird places.

And there is probably the rub. Like the bard, this thing wants to be a caster, a skill-based entity, and some kind of fighter. Much like the bard, when you actually get it to work, it takes some hefting (potentially cheesy).

Nah, bards rock without significant cheesing. They're definitely better than a factotum, and have no problem keeping up with fighters and rogues simultaneously, even in core. Bards are just... misunderstood. In core they get more benefits from specializing, but they still have enough left over between spells and skill points to do other jobs when all is said and done.

Regardless, I'm just going to bow out of this discussion because I clearly got back too late and you're already sold on rogue. Rogue is fun though, so no worries there.

Willie the Duck

2018-09-03, 09:48 PM

Regardless, I'm just going to bow out of this discussion because I clearly got back too late and you're already sold on rogue. Rogue is fun though, so no worries there.

Where are people getting this assumption that I'm sold on anything (ranged SA factotum, multishot, rogue, etc.)? I'm not sold on anything, just demoralized on factotum (although, in the end, I still want to play one, just not sure how).

Yes, they get spells, and the argument that spells trump anything else is not exactly wrong. However, when I'm not casting those less-than=ten spells per day, I have to do something, and it's looking really hard to figure out what that is. The rogue at least knows what they are going to do--pass sneak/perception/occasional situation negating/combat skills and set up a sneak attack. The factotum can do the same skills stuff (plus knowledge skills and a SA-like combat skill) and... some really convoluted stuff that is not exactly weak, but they have a hard time capitalizing on without dipping into other classes (which delays their spellcasting).

If you have suggestions, I am all ears.

Sleven

2018-09-03, 11:11 PM

Where are people getting this assumption that I'm sold on anything (ranged SA factotum, multishot, rogue, etc.)? I'm not sold on anything, just demoralized on factotum (although, in the end, I still want to play one, just not sure how).

Yes, they get spells, and the argument that spells trump anything else is not exactly wrong. However, when I'm not casting those less-than=ten spells per day, I have to do something, and it's looking really hard to figure out what that is. The rogue at least knows what they are going to do--pass sneak/perception/occasional situation negating/combat skills and set up a sneak attack. The factotum can do the same skills stuff (plus knowledge skills and a SA-like combat skill) and... some really convoluted stuff that is not exactly weak, but they have a hard time capitalizing on without dipping into other classes (which delays their spellcasting).

If you have suggestions, I am all ears.

EDIT: Keep in mind this post is light-hearted. I mean well, but I'm also bowing out of this thread because I don't want to contribute to any more indecision. People think factotum sucks? Too bad, you want to play it and have fun with it. Make it fun for yourself. Disregard the nay-sayers.

Probably because you haven't given any indication as to what you want to play other than "have Nymph's Kiss and be mostly Factotum" only to later indicate you're feeling better about going mostly rogue. We aren't mind readers.

So I'm going to do two things here, then I'm done:
1) Ask you to define your character concept
(I already asked you to do this before, but you just said Nymph's Kiss + Factotum; that's not a concept, those are guidelines. A concept is: I want a nymphomaniac who can talk their way out of any situation, sleep around, and also fill in for a few other roles that are [insert roles here].)
2) Give you a build based on that concept
(I've decided you want to play a charisma-focused character because the best guidelines I have are Nymph's Kiss + Factotum, probably UMD and Iaijutsu.)

You stole Indiana Jones' identity, and you're a factotum, so you can pull that off. Rogues? That's beneath you. You're a facetotum who can lie to gods and get away with it. Anyone who you can't swindle can't help but enjoy your presence because gosh-darnit, you're a great conversationalist. You also like sleeping with nymphs. A lot. (Seriously, otherwise you wouldn't have taken that feat).

- You're taking the feat Bind Vestige for Naberious (possibly Improved Bind Vestige) for the Silver Tongue ability (since I'm only allowing myself to spend 5 minutes on this post and can't remember the rules for that feat line).
- Max Diplomacy and take all of its synergy bonuses except Knowledge (nobility & royalty).
- You'll also take some points in Bluff (or however many you need to get to the degree of lying you want on the chart in the Player's Handbook with penalties included)
- Don't bother with Intimidate. You're a nice nymphomaniac and are going to basically be (Ex) mind controlling people into friendship with a standard action anyways (thanks to the fact that you're binding Naberious).
- Maxing Sense Motive is probably a good idea so you don't have to have other players fill in the face role.
- Max Use Magic Device and get Iaijutsu Focus as high as you need to (max if going epic). Use Magic Device is going to help you both in and out of combat because you'll be using it to cast spells from the runestaff that is your Ancestral Weapon (another feat you'll only take if your DM is mean and doesn't have "buy what you want" magic marts).
- At early levels you'll be buying items that best help you survive the types of encounters your DM throws at you. Once you get an expendable income, you'll be buying things like: Circlet of Persuasion, Admiral's Bicorne, [That One Item from Secrets of Sarlona that gives you continous Detect Hostile Intent], etc. to make yourself the uber master conversationalist and cunning linguist (see what I did there, you nymph-licker?:smallwink:) of the party. It'll probably have spells like Glibness on it. Or, whatever.
- You're going to learn about high-value spells (like Heart of Water, No Light, Planar Binding, etc.). Don't ask me what they all are, because this is honestly personal preference and something I feel players are better off finding out about on their own or by creating a separate thread detailing what they'd like their spells to do and getting appropriate responses for. Just remember that you have UMD so you're limited spells/day isn't really that limited with enough wands, runestaves, etc.

With that all in order you basically just have to decide what else you want to do with your build. If you decide to take rogue for whatever reason (I wouldn't if it's just a single level), be sure to at least take the martial rogue ACF for a fighter feat.
Your highest ability score should be Intelligence, followed by Charisma. Constitution is next. Try and keep your Strength and Dexterity at or above 10, but otherwise you don't care.
Stick to your guns. You said your DM is making this a non-combat focused campaign, so face the hell out of it. Face everywhere, even in combat (because with this build enemies are friends too). If you have to hurt them, that's what the Wand of Grease or Eversmoking Bottle is for. Get 'em flat-footed and Iaijutsu Focus them to death. You want to be an archer? Arrows are improvised melee weapons. Drawing them triggers Iaijutsu Focus for your bow attack. Etc. Point is, learn how to use what you have and don't talk yourself out of any more build concepts.

bean illus

2018-09-04, 12:21 AM

... are burning limited encounter-level supplies to get pluses to hit, damage, or contested rolls that a straight fighter type might just have higher numbers to begin with.
Their resources are no more limited than casters, wands, etc. Sure, it's only 2 spells per encounter, but CK rocks along all day.

I still want to play one, just not sure how).

I have to do something, and it's looking really hard to figure out what that is.

and... some really convoluted stuff that is not exactly weak, but they have a hard time capitalizing on without dipping into other classes (which delays their spellcasting)
Facto doesn't have prc or splat support, and i don't have any distaste for multiclassing.

Facto has some fantastic abilities. Look at CK ... no action? That's a scaling 1st lvl ability.

But i did admit better players could make a Cha build.

EDIT: Keep in mind this post is light-hearted. I mean well, but I'm also bowing out of this thread because I don't want to contribute to any more indecision. People think factotum sucks? Too bad, you want to play it and have fun with it. Make it fun for yourself. Disregard the nay-sayers.

Probably because you haven't given any indication as to what you want to play other than "have Nymph's Kiss and be mostly Factotum" only to later indicate you're feeling better about going mostly rogue. We aren't mind readers.

So I'm going to do two things here, then I'm done:
1) Ask you to define your character concept
(I already asked you to do this before, but you just said Nymph's Kiss + Factotum; that's not a concept, those are guidelines. A concept is: I want a nymphomaniac who can talk their way out of any situation, sleep around, and also fill in for a few other roles that are [insert roles here].)
2) Give you a build based on that concept
(I've decided you want to play a charisma-focused character because the best guidelines I have are Nymph's Kiss + Factotum, probably UMD and Iaijutsu.)

You stole Indiana Jones' identity, and you're a factotum, so you can pull that off. Rogues? That's beneath you. You're a facetotum who can lie to gods and get away with it. Anyone who you can't swindle can't help but enjoy your presence because gosh-darnit, you're a great conversationalist. You also like sleeping with nymphs. A lot. (Seriously, otherwise you wouldn't have taken that feat).

- You're taking the feat Bind Vestige for Naberious (possibly Improved Bind Vestige) for the Silver Tongue ability (since I'm only allowing myself to spend 5 minutes on this post and can't remember the rules for that feat line).
- Max Diplomacy and take all of its synergy bonuses except Knowledge (nobility & royalty).
- You'll also take some points in Bluff (or however many you need to get to the degree of lying you want on the chart in the Player's Handbook with penalties included)
- Don't bother with Intimidate. You're a nice nymphomaniac and are going to basically be (Ex) mind controlling people into friendship with a standard action anyways (thanks to the fact that you're binding Naberious).
- Maxing Sense Motive is probably a good idea so you don't have to have other players fill in the face role.
- Max Use Magic Device and get Iaijutsu Focus as high as you need to (max if going epic). Use Magic Device is going to help you both in and out of combat because you'll be using it to cast spells from the runestaff that is your Ancestral Weapon (another feat you'll only take if your DM is mean and doesn't have "buy what you want" magic marts).
- At early levels you'll be buying items that best help you survive the types of encounters your DM throws at you. Once you get an expendable income, you'll be buying things like: Circlet of Persuasion, Admiral's Bicorne, [That One Item from Secrets of Sarlona that gives you continous Detect Hostile Intent], etc. to make yourself the uber master conversationalist and cunning linguist (see what I did there, you nymph-licker?:smallwink:) of the party. It'll probably have spells like Glibness on it. Or, whatever.
- You're going to learn about high-value spells (like Heart of Water, No Light, Planar Binding, etc.). Don't ask me what they all are, because this is honestly personal preference and something I feel players are better off finding out about on their own or by creating a separate thread detailing what they'd like their spells to do and getting appropriate responses for. Just remember that you have UMD so you're limited spells/day isn't really that limited with enough wands, runestaves, etc.

With that all in order you basically just have to decide what else you want to do with your build. If you decide to take rogue for whatever reason (I wouldn't if it's just a single level), be sure to at least take the martial rogue ACF for a fighter feat.
Your highest ability score should be Intelligence, followed by Charisma. Constitution is next. Try and keep your Strength and Dexterity at or above 10, but otherwise you don't care.
Stick to your guns. You said your DM is making this a non-combat focused campaign, so face the hell out of it. Face everywhere, even in combat (because with this build enemies are friends too). If you have to hurt them, that's what the Wand of Grease or Eversmoking Bottle is for. Get 'em flat-footed and Iaijutsu Focus them to death. You want to be an archer? Arrows are improvised melee weapons. Drawing them triggers Iaijutsu Focus for your bow attack. Etc. Point is, learn how to use what you have and don't talk yourself out of any more build concepts.
Iaijutsu triggers bow attack, lol.

It IS a good point that UMD 'fixes' the 'only 10 spells' thing (a lvl of wizard would really help too).

Nifft

2018-09-04, 01:32 AM

:smallconfused: I don't know why you think my prussian professor wants to Sneak Attack with Manyshot. Maybe he's in a hurry.

FoI (which seems to be a real author-saving-throw for the class) makes them decent combat-nova types, with a nice +Int whereever you need it. If the base class had more things to use those +s upon, or more feats to buy up things like the trip chain and like without dipping out, I think it would feel easier. Even if they had +Int to attack and damage with every single attack, they'd be relatively mediocre at combat. The fact that they pay 3 feats to have a reliable number of +Int bonus attacks means they're worse than mediocre, since mundane combat is relatively feat intensive, and they don't have sufficient class features for magical combat.

Oh, c'mon. It's not hard to know what CS is supposed to do. Really? There have been numerous disagreements about whether it's supposed to be a free action that you might or might not be able to stack multiple times in a round, or a Swift action (and thus compete with Celerity).

Per RAW, it appears that using an untyped (Su) ability defaults to a Standard action.

If you've got a solution to that disagreement, post it, with RAW support backing up your assertion.

This is an inaccurate assessment.

Between the class skills (all), Int focus of the character, and BoB, facto exceeds all others.

A rilkan rogue with 18 int (lol) would have 14x6=84 sp @ 3rd.
A facto at 3rd ... 10x6=60 sp ... but ...

(... snip math ...)

Facto is tier 3 (maybe 4 done w/o BoB. It's not Chameleon or Binder or etc. But ragging on CS or claiming facto doesn't dominate skills is silly.

No, you're missing the big point here.

Incarnate gets very few skill points, and instead has class features which give +X to a large number of skills, where X is a value that increases by character level.

Incarnate doesn't need Int to have skills, and doesn't need to guess 10 levels in advance which skills will be necessary tomorrow.

Suddenly need a trap-finder for the infiltration / assassination / theft mission tomorrow? Incarnate can re-spec overnight and deliver an adequate trap monkey.

Suddenly need a silver-tongued face to talk your way through the Duke's court, including flattery, deception, and spotting the difference? Incarnate can re-spec overnight and deliver an adequate diplomat.

Factotum is stuck with whatever skills you picked (except for the 1/day-per-skill feature which is great 1/day-per-skill -- but 1/day is totally insufficient for a mission based around skill use).

So if you find yourself on missions based around specific skills -- say, stealth skills, or social skills, or one particular kind of knowledge -- most of the characters that I'm showcasing can perform any such mission (given a day's notice).

Chameleon can swap out spells and ability bonus, and can eventually use spells + stealth / wild / combat focus (if those are ever better). Incarante and Binder can swap out bonuses; Binder can get enhancements to some ability scores, or flat bonuses to some skills. Artificer can make custom gear for the next adventure, or can whip out mission-specific temporary gear equivalents using Infusions (and honestly those can be awesome). Bards get spells like Improvisation which grant a scaling bonus to any skill check, and Bardic Knowledge which effectively gives the all Knowledge skills (for exposition value anyway; not for the combat bonus via Knowledge Devotion, of course).

Note how I'm not counting skill points. The versatility that these classes grant means they don't need to care about how many skill points they have on their sheet when they wake up. They can give themselves the equivalent of more skill points, or they have class features which obviate wide swaths of skills.

That's what the Factotum fails to deliver: flexibility. The static nature of a Facto's skill ranks means it's arguably not fulfilling what a T3 demands, either -- it's more like a static T4 / T5 which does one thing iff you build for that thing.

Facto may have the most skill points, but they are NOT the best at having all the skills (and honestly the Changeling Rogue racial sub levels kinda make the Facto obsolete with regards to having the most skill points, too).

Willie the Duck

2018-09-04, 09:12 AM

EDIT: Keep in mind this post is light-hearted. I mean well, but I'm also bowing out of this thread because I don't want to contribute to any more indecision. People think factotum sucks? Too bad, you want to play it and have fun with it. Make it fun for yourself. Disregard the nay-sayers.

Noted, and referred to hereafter with an *.

Probably because you haven't given any indication as to what you want to play other than "have Nymph's Kiss and be mostly Factotum" only to later indicate you're feeling better about going mostly rogue. We aren't mind readers.

So I'm going to do two things here, then I'm done:
1) Ask you to define your character concept
(I already asked you to do this before, but you just said Nymph's Kiss + Factotum; that's not a concept, those are guidelines. A concept is: I want a nymphomaniac who can talk their way out of any situation, sleep around, and also fill in for a few other roles that are .)

Sorry if your request got short-changed, I was responding to multiple people and the squeakiest wheels got the grease. My primary concept is grand skill monkey (which was the reason for Nymph's Kiss, I don't even know what to say to the nymphomaniac bit). Later refined to starting out as charlatan (mostly social skills, few knowledge skills), at least until the character starts to 'become the mask (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BecomingTheMask),' as it were. After that, it was rather undefined, since the goal after that was pretty much '...and then contribute to the adventuring party, as you would expect any character to do.' So yes, exactly how the PC contributes wasn't especially important, so long as it doesn't do more harm than good.

2) Give you a build based on that concept
(I've decided you want to play a charisma-focused character because the best guidelines I have are Nymph's Kiss + Factotum, probably UMD and Iaijutsu.)
[I] <specific example>

Thanks! As to specifics-

You also like sleeping with nymphs. A lot. (Seriously, otherwise you wouldn't have taken that feat).

Is this what you take from the feat (or is this more of *)? I'd always considered it a metaphorical 'kissed' (as in 'blessed').

- Max Use Magic Device and get Iaijutsu Focus as high as you need to (max if going epic). Use Magic Device is going to help you both in and out of combat because you'll be using it to cast spells from the runestaff that is your Ancestral Weapon (another feat you'll only take if your DM is mean and doesn't have "buy what you want" magic marts).

I will have to recalibrate my expectations for the 3e boards if DMs who don't facilitate "buy what you want" magic marts are construed as being mean, so much as saving the edition from itself (*).

Iaijutsu is probably going to be a major part of the combat scheme. As we've discovered, other shenanigans require copious dipping. UMD will be in full force. It will be with the magic items the DM drops in front of us, but that has never been a huge problem. A crystal ball and a wand of spider climb can conquer a dungeon (:smallbiggrin:).

Stick to your guns. You said your DM is making this a non-combat focused campaign, so face the hell out of it. Face everywhere, even in combat (because with this build enemies are friends too). If you have to hurt them, that's what the Wand of Grease or Eversmoking Bottle is for. Get 'em flat-footed and Iaijutsu Focus them to death. You want to be an archer? Arrows are improvised melee weapons. Drawing them triggers Iaijutsu Focus for your bow attack. Etc. Point is, learn how to use what you have and don't talk yourself out of any more build concepts.

This is the best advice so far. I have this overwhelming tendency to feel like I have to overly contribute. It might be nice to just be the guy who has skills, knows stuff, and occasionally pulls off a 1st round take-down with IF, and gets to play with the nifty toys.

Nifft

2018-09-04, 12:47 PM

This is the best advice so far. I have this overwhelming tendency to feel like I have to overly contribute. It might be nice to just be the guy who has skills, knows stuff, and occasionally pulls off a 1st round take-down with IF, and gets to play with the nifty toys.

The only successful, useful Factotum that I've seen at the table was the secondary Knowledge guy.
- A few ranks in every Knowledge
- Only bothered to make a check when someone else botched (rolled 1-4 or so)
- Used the 1/day skill feature on these "botch compensation" checks

That mean the 1/day feature was usually sufficient, since botches weren't that common.

Willie the Duck

2018-09-04, 01:28 PM

The only successful, useful Factotum that I've seen at the table was the secondary Knowledge guy.
- A few ranks in every Knowledge
- Only bothered to make a check when someone else botched (rolled 1-4 or so)
- Used the 1/day skill feature on these "botch compensation" checks

That mean the 1/day feature was usually sufficient, since botches weren't that common.

I'm hoping they could accomplish other skills-based success, right?

Nifft

2018-09-04, 03:07 PM

I'm hoping they could accomplish other skills-based success, right?

Yeah but it was a cohort to a Wizard in a mostly-T1 party, so other skill-based checks weren't as vital as they would be in a T3-T4 party.

You can totally spec up a Facto to cover many T4 Rogue skill-monkey roles -- trap-guy, face-guy, stealth-guy -- but be careful about spreading yourself too thin; and of course it's not particularly necessary to be a Facto if what you're doing is covering one non-combat aspect of a T4 Rogue's role.

My point is that the best example I've seen where it was necessary to be a Facto was covering all the Knowledge skills (1/day each), and that was basically serving as backup.

Facto can be solid in this role of backup. It's not great as a spotlight magnet, but it's solidly useful.

Another place where a Facto can be solid is as a helper in item crafting. If there's a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept in the party, they have an Arcane caster level, and can take feats. But they can't cast spells, so their item crafting is highly limited. As a Facto, you can contribute spellcasting. This means you can help a Warlock / DFA / etc. craft a huge number of wands and such, which helps everyone who has UMD.

Level 3 Warlock / DFA can take Craft Wand, and level 3 Facto gets a level 1 spell (once per day, which is all you need for item crafting). That's excellent synergy.

At level 5 you can help craft wands with level 2 spells; at level 8 you can start contributing level 3 spells.

If there's a UMD Rogue in your party, she'll be very happy to be handed a wand of [i]acid splash (0-level spell, useful mostly for ranged touch Sneak Attack delivery).

bean illus

2018-09-05, 08:03 PM

Really? There have been numerous disagreements about whether it's supposed to be a free action that you might or might not be able to stack multiple times in a round, or a Swift action (and thus compete with Celerity).

Per RAW, it appears that using an untyped (Su) ability defaults to a Standard action.

If you've got a solution to that disagreement, post it, with RAW support backing up your assertion.

Well i certainly wasn't trying to assert that YOU couldn't argue. Some folks are like that. I've met more than one.

... even i know RAW is insufficient for facto. That wasn't in contention.

Nifft

2018-09-05, 08:11 PM

Oh, c'mon. It's not hard to know what CS is supposed to do.
(...)
(lol. sry, i can't stop laughing at that).

Well i certainly wasn't trying to assert that YOU couldn't argue. Some folks are like that. I've met more than one.

... even i know RAW is insufficient for facto. That wasn't in contention.

No, seriously. You said it's not hard to know what CS was supposed to do.

I've seen other people who said they like the class disagree about what it was supposed to do, but you claim to know better than all of us.

So c'mon, stop with the the personal disparagement and tell us. What's CS supposed to do?

bean illus

2018-09-05, 08:55 PM

I will have to recalibrate my expectations for the 3e boards if DMs who don't facilitate "buy what you want" magic marts are construed as being mean...
lol

As we've discovered, other shenanigans require copious dipping. 2 classes dipped is not that extreme, or "copious", on a class that has ZERO prc, acf, or splat support.

This is the best advice so far. I have this overwhelming tendency to feel like I have to overly contribute. It might be nice to just be the guy who has skills, knows stuff, and occasionally pulls off a 1st round take-down with IF, and gets to play with the nifty toys.
I started to write half a page on this earlier, when you asked 'what does facto actually do'.

For one, you GO FIRST!
Int+Dex to init will give you surprise so often that (unless everybody at the table is a better player, with a stronger build) you can have fun with little tricks.
For instance, I once won/finished an encounter with my facto by using a surprise round thusly: I dropped onto the ground and rolled into the ditch (which made everyone at the table give me a dirty look) before I was seen. I spent a round pulling a potion of invisibility out of my backpack, and another moving into position.
By then the bbeg was losing, but also leaving (half the party was down and wounded and the other half was stabilizing them), but had to cross my line of fire. Then I used a wand and CK to bring him down. We got all his magic items, and forced info out of him.

Not the flashiest or most powerful move ever (and not impossible for some other characters), but specifically possible by Int+Dex to init.

Anyway, I'm trying to give low op advice, not turn your facto into a T2.

Sleven

2018-09-05, 09:03 PM

What's CS supposed to do?

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.

I'm quoting the rest because I'm not hiding anything here, the second sentence is what messes people up. Since, by RAW, Cunning Surge would do nothing.

That being said...

Cunning Surge (Ex): Starting at 8th level, you learn to push yourself when needed. By spending 3 inspiration points, you can take an extra standard action during your turn.

It's pretty clear what the intent is, when they use the word "extra" followed by standard action. You don't actually have an extra standard action if you have to keep using it on the ability you're using to get it with in the first place.

EDIT: As for the rest of this thread, I'm staying out of it. I've said my bit.

Kelb_Panthera

2018-09-05, 09:40 PM

I will have to recalibrate my expectations for the 3e boards if DMs who don't facilitate "buy what you want" magic marts are construed as being mean,

Yes, you will. Throwing a stealth nerf at everyone (and make no mistake, that's what nuking the magic mart is) in a way that hurts the non-casters far more than the casters is what I'd certainly call "mean," amongst other things. There's nothing wrong with blacklisting certain items for whatever reason but restricting the PCs to a whitelist or, worse, whatever they find in dungeon loot is either laziness, fear, or insisting that magic must be handled your way.

so much as saving the edition from itself (*).

So non-casters can't have nice things unless the GM smiles on them is "saving the edition from itself?" I don't think so. You're going to have to explain that one -real- careful.

Nifft

2018-09-06, 01:13 AM

I'm quoting the rest because I'm not hiding anything here, the second sentence is what messes people up. Since, by RAW, Cunning Surge would do nothing. Exactly: the RAW is dysfunctional, so you need to beg your DM to make it do something else.

If your DM is allowing Factotum in play, he or she really ought to do something... but what in specific?

That being said...

It's pretty clear what the intent is, when they use the word "extra" followed by standard action. You don't actually have an extra standard action if you have to keep using it on the ability you're using to get it with in the first place.

I agree.

But is it supposed to be a Swift action? That would mechanically support an extra Standard action.

Or is it supposed to be a new, special kind of limited-use Free action? So you'd keep your Swift for that turn, but you wouldn't be allowed to spend 6 IP for 2 extra Standards. But the text doesn't explicitly say it's limited-use, only imply it.

Or is it supposed to be an unlimited Free action, so you can pay 9 IP and get 3 extra Standard actions? That seems silly and isn't what I think the text implies -- but it's how some people seem to read the text. Honestly I can't support this interpretation.

The RAI seems to be one of those three, but which one? Personally I favor the Swift action reading -- it's coherent and consistent with both the text and the action economy in general, and it gives Factotum a nice thing without giving it an absurdly broken thing. But the Swift action version does require elements which are not in the RAW (since RAW only mentions free non-actions and Standard actions), so I think it's RAI but pretty clearly it's not RAW.

Willie the Duck

2018-09-06, 10:11 AM

Yes, you will. Throwing a stealth nerf at everyone (and make no mistake, that's what nuking the magic mart is) in a way that hurts the non-casters far more than the casters is what I'd certainly call "mean," amongst other things. There's nothing wrong with blacklisting certain items for whatever reason but restricting the PCs to a whitelist or, worse, whatever they find in dungeon loot is either laziness, fear, or insisting that magic must be handled your way.

So non-casters can't have nice things unless the GM smiles on them is "saving the edition from itself?" I don't think so. You're going to have to explain that one -real- careful.

Kelb, I don't know you personally in any way, so we are effectively strangers. And as a reasonable human being, I generally prefer strangers to have good lives. So I am going to offer a piece of unsolicited advice that you are free to take or leave as you see fit. If there's ever something in your life you really want that you need to convince someone else in order to get--be it negotiate a price on a car at the car lot, ask that special someone to marry you, or get the little league coach to let your kid on the team even though their birthday is 2 days past the deadline--don't use this tone or this tact. There was absolutely no reason to go about this with the level of hostility that was exemplified here. In no small part because it does not accomplish your goals. I actually want to talk on this subject, but now I feel that, for ethical reason, I cannot, as it would be rewarding bad behavior. Further, it enforces a negative opinion I otherwise wouldn't have about engaging this subforum on serious subjects (I have started exactly two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?567500-Returning-3e-er-looking-to-play-Factotum-1-20-an-low-op-game) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?567644-Tier-3-4-Skill-monkey-party) since deciding to take up 3e again, and both have descended needlessly into this kind of behavior).

Further, if your perspective is that people have to do as you think they should or else they are throwing stealth nerfs, being mean, and think that certain characters can't have nice things unless the GM smiles on them, that's a pretty good starting point for me not to care to convince you.

To you and the rest of the readers, I'm sure there was a legitimate point behind this Charlie Foxtrot. If anyone wants to bring it forward in a mature and respectful manner, I would be happy to engage with it. Thanks!

Nifft

2018-09-06, 12:43 PM

To you and the rest of the readers, I'm sure there was a legitimate point behind this Charlie Foxtrot. If anyone wants to bring it forward in a mature and respectful manner, I would be happy to engage with it. Thanks!

I could talk about my experiences with various magic item distribution schemes if you're interested, but it sounds like you are already in a fairly reasonable place.

Willie the Duck

2018-09-06, 01:14 PM

I could talk about my experiences with various magic item distribution schemes if you're interested, but it sounds like you are already in a fairly reasonable place.

I'd be interested on the level that I'm always interested in hearing peoples' experiences with the game. If that's more burden than pleasure, though, don't feel obliged. I am probably good. I won't have to worry about the casters getting a disproportionate share of the spotlight because there won't be any pure casters (I think someone is thinking about going part-ranger, that's the most spellcasting we've talked about. If I end up as a pure factotum, I might be the arcane top dog).

We will run the game with regards to magic items approximately like we have all other versions of D&D (and I have played oD&D, Holmes, B/X, BECMI, AD&D, 2e, 3e, 4e and 5e, and this strategy has worked acceptably well) -- the DM places magic items in dungeons or dungeon-esque environments. We go in, get them, and distribute them on a need-based basis. If someone really wants something specific, perhaps money can be spent on research costs on finding out where one might be (and maybe even buying them. Magic items aren't never for sale, there just aren't 'convert your WBL into magic items'-style magic-marts). Note that I really don't have the option to do otherwise, since I am not the DM. Regardless, I am not forseeing that decision being one that will send the game completely off the rails.

Thanks for your interest. :smallsmile:

Kelb_Panthera

2018-09-06, 02:43 PM

Kelb, I don't know you personally in any way, so we are effectively strangers. And as a reasonable human being, I generally prefer strangers to have good lives. So I am going to offer a piece of unsolicited advice that you are free to take or leave as you see fit. ...don't use this tone or this tact.

Let me give you one in turn then. Don't condescend to people that are trying to help you understand a thing you plainly don't unless you really do think that ignorance is bliss. Guarantee I'm older than your mental image of me, btw.

There was absolutely no reason to go about this with the level of hostility that was exemplified here. In no small part because it does not accomplish your goals.

Here's your first mistake. There was no hostility there, more incredulity than anything. I'll get into the why of that in a moment. I'll spare you the sanctimony of explaining charitable interpretation while I'm at it. This, btw, is getting a little hostile now just so we're clear. I don't like being the subject condescension. I'm willing to real it back in after this post if you are.

I actually want to talk on this subject, but now I feel that, for ethical reason, I cannot, as it would be rewarding bad behavior.

It's not your job to police my, or anyone else's behavior here. This kind of crap screams at me "I don't really want to talk about it but if I sound smarmy enough maybe he'll feel like he's wrong, get embarrassed, and go away." Fat chance. If you'd -really- like to talk about it, do so. If not, there was no reason to respond, much less respond like a condescending *****. (haven't reeled that hostility in yet. :smallsmile:)

Further, it enforces a negative opinion I otherwise wouldn't have about engaging this subforum on serious subjects (I have started exactly two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?567500-Returning-3e-er-looking-to-play-Factotum-1-20-an-low-op-game) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?567644-Tier-3-4-Skill-monkey-party) since deciding to take up 3e again, and both have descended needlessly into this kind of behavior).

The only people left in this subforum are the hardcore 3e rules enthusiasts. Most of us are -very- opinionated on various things. If you can't take the verbal heat, stay out of the kitchen. This long after most of the people who are softer about the rules have moved on to 5e you're unlikely to find a forum for 3e that's any better behaved, especially in light of the fact that most such forums are far less heavily moderated. You want to know how the rules work in -excruciating- detail, come here. You want someone to coddle your feelings, talk to your RL friends or head over to the friendly banter subforum.

Further, if your perspective is that people have to do as you think they should or else they are throwing stealth nerfs, being mean, and think that certain characters can't have nice things unless the GM smiles on them, that's a pretty good starting point for me not to care to convince you.

Now we can get into the incredulity that I expressed in my last post.

This is not just a matter of my opinion. It's part of the 3e design. The games designers -intended- the PC's to access whatever they could afford from the whole host of magic items presented. This is abundantly clear when you consider the fact that they -explicitly- say that a character's wealth is a part of the expected power curve in the presentation of the wealth by level chart, that the settlement design portion of the DMG -explicitly- says that anything under the settlement's GP limit is presumed to be available, and the fact that by the release of the Magic Item Compendium they were actually assigning appropriate levels for acquisition to individual items. When you then further extrapolate that the PCs -cannot- hit CR appropriate numbers and abilities (outside of buff-bots holding them up) it's painfully obvious what the design intent was. You're free to dislike that design decision. You're free to handle your game differently when you DM. You're not free to deny you're departing from the system defaults when you do it or that doing so -does- in fact weaken all PCs from the expected baseline.

To you and the rest of the readers, I'm sure there was a legitimate point behind this Charlie Foxtrot. If anyone wants to bring it forward in a mature and respectful manner, I would be happy to engage with it. Thanks!

Respect is earned. You made earning mine a lot harder with your attitude here, not that I expect you to care. Since we're sharing our beliefs without solicitation, I'll go ahead and explain that I'm telling you this because I believe in being honest and forthright in expressing myself and where I stand with the people I deal with, even if they don't like how I say it or what I have to say. Like I said above; I'm willing to reel in the hostility going forward if you are.

bean illus

2018-09-06, 09:03 PM

<snip>
... uhhhh ...

<snip>
... uhhhh ...

<snip>
... uhhhh ...

... there won't be any pure casters (I think someone is thinking about going part-ranger, that's the most spellcasting we've talked about. If I end up as a pure factotum, I might be the arcane top dog).

Thanks for your interest. :smallsmile:

If 'part ranger' is the level of 'low op' your playing, then facto will play fine.

Willie the Duck

2018-09-07, 10:28 AM

Respect is earned.

You are right, it is. And we fundamentally disagree on who failed with regards to the earning thereof. I agree, however, that continuing down this road serves no purpose.

Now we can get into the incredulity that I expressed in my last post.

This is not just a matter of my opinion. It's part of the 3e design. The games designers -intended- the PC's to access whatever they could afford from the whole host of magic items presented. This is abundantly clear when you consider the fact that they -explicitly- say that a character's wealth is a part of the expected power curve in the presentation of the wealth by level chart, that the settlement design portion of the DMG -explicitly- says that anything under the settlement's GP limit is presumed to be available, and the fact that by the release of the Magic Item Compendium they were actually assigning appropriate levels for acquisition to individual items. When you then further extrapolate that the PCs -cannot- hit CR appropriate numbers and abilities (outside of buff-bots holding them up) it's painfully obvious what the design intent was. You're free to dislike that design decision. You're free to handle your game differently when you DM. You're not free to deny you're departing from the system defaults when you do it or that doing so -does- in fact weaken all PCs from the expected baseline.

The entire premise of the thread has been about the campaign I am entering. Yes, we are deviating from defaults. Many of them. Including tier limitation, focus on skills, and also a mostly find-and-distribute* method of magic item acquisition. The game will be sandbox style, and we will not need to take on adventures we don't think we are ready for. So long as we are, in fact, weakening all PCs at a somewhat similar rate (at least within the margin that other factors that are in play), it should hopefully work.
*with, as the party desires, option to search for and hunt down specific items if needed, as side-quests.

That similar rate part goes back to other points discussed. I am aware of the argument that the purchase-facilitated-ability-to-specialize-one's-magic-item-loadout generally favors the martials. The wizard can use any wand they find in the treasure pile, while the fighter/warblade really wants those boots of flying to fight the flying creatures without spellcaster support, and similar examples. When it comes to the decision of what to do about it, we've decided that the joy of (magic item) discovery is an important part of the game, and we would wrap other portions of our decision-making around that, if need be. This is one of the reasons we have been trying to find characters of high-tierage characters that still work at their intended purpose (and why I've had to check myself here when I've been disappointed/demoralized that my deliberately not-awesome character is indeed not-awesome). We are aware of the balance issues of 3e (else we might have just said, 'play what you want and have fun' like we might have in 2001) and are working around them. Trying to get 3e to work for us is the entire point of this endeavor--one that I recognize as benefit almost exclusively myself directly, and everyone else only in them getting to opine on their favorite edition, and have repeatedly expressed thanks for. And I will again, to everyone. Thanks everyone for helping me and my team on this group-specific project.

If 'part ranger' is the level of 'low op' your playing, then facto will play fine.

I suspect so. I might be the one who gate-keeps a spell-mediated gate (not sure what, something that requires a flier to reach or the like). The DM has stated that in-town clerics will be able to cast restorations and the like, so the absolute-mandatory cleric needs will be met. I am curious how we are going to do healing in general.

bean illus

2018-09-07, 11:50 PM

I suspect so. ... The DM has stated that in-town clerics will be able to cast restorations and the like, so the absolute-mandatory cleric needs will be met. I am curious how we are going to do healing in general.

You do the healing.
Of course and first level the DM will hand out some potions or maybe an NPC but at 5th you will have healing, and UMD, so hopefully a wand.

BTW, how many people are expected in your party? It would be nice if somebody else had healing.

I still like the single level of wizard. The utility would be game-changing at early levels.

Facto3/W1/facto(19) ?

Willie the Duck

2018-09-08, 07:23 AM

You do the healing.
Of course and first level the DM will hand out some potions or maybe an NPC but at 5th you will have healing, and UMD, so hopefully a wand.

BTW, how many people are expected in your party? It would be nice if somebody else had healing.

6 players plus DM, but between kids and jobs and reserves and all, there will be some serious 'not this week, guys' issues. I expect average of 4 per session. I know there will be the ranger (can use wands and scrolls if nothing else). There is a possibility that the DM will ruck up a skill-based healing system that will be sufficient.

I still like the single level of wizard. The utility would be game-changing at early levels.

Facto3/W1/facto(19) ?

It is an interesting idea. By level 3, the Facto gets a 1st level spell. A level of wizard delays getting the second 1st level spell. It's a cost-benefit analysis to be sure.

Willie the Duck

2018-09-13, 09:15 AM

In case anyone is interested, we started. The lineup looks like:
I started with a human factotum
Ranger
Scout (based on these two, I suspect we will be doing a lot of survivalism stuff )
Rogue (focus on physical stuff- sneaking, perception, balance, climb, etc.)
Duskblade (interesting)
Swordsage (I believe going for a monk-like character)
Warblade

The DM is going to be doing a homebrew healing system, where securing a favorable resting site and having people with healing/herbalism skills will vastly increase natural healing. I suspect it might take some iterations to get the numbers right.

Iaijutsu has been okayed, so I will be focusing on that for combat prowess, and reminding myself that the entire purpose of our limitations is so that I don't have to be stellar at everything.

Thanks everyone for their advice! I will keep people up to date if interested.

bean illus

2018-09-13, 12:35 PM

Willie the Duck

2018-09-13, 01:07 PM

Keen Intellect and Weapon Finesse (DM let me take it early, to come online next level). I got a couple of low scores, and I am sacrificing later level perfect synergy for early level survival. People successfully talked me out of Nymph's kiss. I will probably dip into Carmendine Monk if I can, but might change my mind by that level (delaying the Factotum means delayed spells, and I really don't need all that much combat prowess in this meat wall group).

I will, thanks!

Willie the Duck

2018-09-21, 12:05 PM

Alright, action time! First session was yesterday.
The game world is early iron age to middle ages. Probably not the most historically accurate, but probably as good as normal D&D is, with that regard. Obviously no full plate or the like, but the existing armors have been spread out amongst the existing statistical slots (so a low dex martial type will eventually be able to buy +8 AC, +1 Max Dex armor, it just won't technically be plate mail).

First adventure was in medium sized city. Undercover work commissioned by agents of the big honcho lord to counter-spy on a suspected agent from a lord from a neighboring city who was trying to stir up trouble. Lots of information gathering, finding out who we thought the spy was, going back to our patrons and convincing them that we needed the right clothes to look the part to get into the right places to spy on the guy. Some second story work for our rogue (cannot wait for brains over brawn, when I might consider joining) to sneak into the guy's room, look for clues, and leaving the place looking the same as when he came in. My character got to do a lot of knowledge: nobility and heraldry checks, which I thankfully put a few ranks in, as well as observation and hiding work.

Everything was working fine until we found out that we'd been played -- the agents we were working for were actually foreign agents, and our mark was the head of a local secret police like group (whether that's a good thing or not, we may find out later). Discovered it based on the handwriting of this guy matching other notes we had found in our research. In retrospect, the DM had dropped like 3-4 clues we had ignored or misinterpreted. Not mad, but realizing we need to kick up out thinking past the character sheet. Doubling back, we had found he had been killed, and we were potentially implicated.

No, not the standard, 'you wind up in gaol' scenario. Instead, it was 'on the run, from people you don't want to kill' scenario. Fortunately, the guards chasing us didn't 'know' we were murderers, just that we had broken into a room. Thus, since we weren't drawing weapons, neither were they, so it was a chase.

Edge of town was defended by a Hill Fort (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillfort), one with lots of 4' walls and other convenient obstacles. Got to use a lot of unarmed attacks (no one except the swordsage-- who was carrying an unconscious character and thus not fighting-- having IUF), pushes, grapples, and jumping, climbing, and balance checks. Eventually we got it such that we were all on one side of it with multiple rounds of actions for any number of the pursuers to engage, so we booked it into the wilderness.

Next week will undoubtedly be 'survive (ill-prepared) in the woods not very far from town, all while remaining hidden, and also figure out what has gone down in town and what our next steps will be.

A pretty good first outing. The skill system held up very well. The whole 'unarmed v. unarmed' thing stopped a bit of the first-level lethality I remember from D&D. The granularity of the skill system certainly worked better than I expect would have been the case with 5e. All-in-all I am happy with the game, and my decision. I certainly think the "All about skills" class should have as much as or more skill points as a rogue, but what I would have put points into now would not have changed the outcome.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed!

Demidos

2018-09-21, 12:55 PM

I was going to reply and then saw you'd already had your first session :smallfrown:

Oh well. I'll just post it here and maybe you can pick it up later if you like the sound of it.

Regarding Feats and Dips
I was going to say, if you happen to have stellar stats and decided you liked the combat manuveurs, a marshal dip can be quite nice, either for a bonus equal to your cha modifier allies' init/stealth checks/sleight of hand, or to their charisma checks, or their int checks...etc.
The feat Jotunbrud (1st only, sadly), would also give you a +4 to all those nifty combat manuveur checks.

Regarding skills
The other things I was thinking was that sleight of hand, with both your intelligence (and maybe cha with the marshal dip) would be quite high. Sleight of hand is pretty cool for stealthy characters, but also most characters in general, as I feel it's very underused. With a FLAT dc 20 you can steal any small object from someone, and they only get a spot check to notice, not to stop you. What sort of small object would you want to steal? Probably an arcane or divine focus, or spell component pouch. This is a good way to shut down spellcasters, and can be fun for grabbing important items like a key ring or jeweled necklace from a noble. Furthermore, with a +20 to the DC, you can attempt it as a free action, meaning you can try it in combat and not lose anything if you fail in the way of time/actions. Right now your bonus would be probably about +12 (ranks + dex + int + cha) but you can see how some minimal investment (+ dex/int/cha items, which you probably want anyway, +2 competence items, etc) can easily make you autopass the DC20 and sometimes even hit the DC 40 even by level 10.

Forgery is also very cool and underused, especially in a campaign like yours. Have a problem with the town guard chasing you? You have a notarized form showing that you were actually hired by the missing secret police chief to investigate the foreign agents and were biding your time to flip the tables on them.

bean illus

2018-09-21, 04:00 PM

I certainly think the "All about skills" class should have as much as or more skill points as a rogue ...

Thanks again to everyone who contributed!

It does. They come in the form of Int bonus and BoB.

Read threads on skills. Many will only need 1 or 5 ranks, plus some combination of BoB and/or CK, and take 10.

Zombimode

2018-09-22, 04:53 AM

Is this what you take from the feat (or is this more of *)? I'd always considered it a metaphorical 'kissed' (as in 'blessed').

Not all feats are created equal. There are feats like Power Attack or Spell Focus that usually represent some specific training or talent. They do not say anything about the character. Anyone could have Power Attack or Spell Focus.

The Exalted feats, all of them, are not like this. Nymph's Kiss being marked as [Exalted] alone has drastic implication for the character who would possible have this feat.
In addition, almost all Exalted feats have drastic implications for the character on their own. Vow of Peace or Vow of Poverty are not feats everybody could have.
And Nymph's Kiss is no exception. It is actually very clear in what the feat represents: "By maintaining an intimate relationship with a good-aligned Fey" you get powers. Roy could take Nymph's Kiss, Durkon could not.

Nifft

2018-09-22, 08:33 AM

Everything was working fine until we found out that we'd been played -- the agents we were working for were actually foreign agents, and our mark was the head of a local secret police like group (whether that's a good thing or not, we may find out later).
Ah, betrayal by foreign agents.

Sounds like a great start to a game.

A pretty good first outing. The skill system held up very well. The whole 'unarmed v. unarmed' thing stopped a bit of the first-level lethality I remember from D&D. The granularity of the skill system certainly worked better than I expect would have been the case with 5e. All-in-all I am happy with the game, and my decision. I certainly think the "All about skills" class should have as much as or more skill points as a rogue, but what I would have put points into now would not have changed the outcome.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed! Cool, one thought for you in specific: Forgery. You should only need 1 check per day to make some kind of deceptive document which gets you further away from trouble (or deeper inside if that's where you wanted to go).

And Nymph's Kiss is no exception. It is actually very clear in what the feat represents: "By maintaining an intimate relationship with a good-aligned Fey" you get powers. Roy could take Nymph's Kiss, Durkon could not.

I think she's a Sylph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), which is an Outsider in this edition.

But yeah, I think you're right about needing to get intimate with a Fey to get the kissy bonus.

Willie the Duck

2018-09-24, 08:00 AM

I was going to say, if you happen to have stellar stats and decided you liked the combat manuveurs, a marshal dip can be quite nice, either for a bonus equal to your cha modifier allies' init/stealth checks/sleight of hand, or to their charisma checks, or their int checks...etc.
The feat Jotunbrud (1st only, sadly), would also give you a +4 to all those nifty combat manuveur checks.

I have very lopsided stats (8 16 16 18 5 12), which is why I took 2 'replace suboptimal stat with another for these conditions: ___' -type feats at 1st. Marshal seems like a great idea for another Factotum with a stellar Charisma. I will keep it in mind if I play another. Jotunbrud too, as that one doesn't fit this character idea, but would be good on a 'big guy everyone assumes is a brick, turns out to be a soft spoken smart guy' kind of character.

It does. They come in the form of Int bonus and BoB.

Read threads on skills. Many will only need 1 or 5 ranks, plus some combination of BoB and/or CK, and take 10.

Oh, I know. Once I have 3-4 levels, and a number of skills up to 5 ranks, and the synergy bonuses start accruing, and the ones you only need so much on hit their stride and I can focus on the opposed ones and the can-never-have-too-high ones... and all the rest of that...it'll seem better. It's mostly psychological now. I had 44 SP to throw around, while an int-based rogue would have 52 (I know, world's smallest violin, etc.). :smalltongue:

The Exalted feats, all of them, are not like this. Nymph's Kiss being marked as [Exalted] alone has drastic implication for the character who would possible have this feat.
In addition, almost all Exalted feats have drastic implications for the character on their own. Vow of Peace or Vow of Poverty are not feats everybody could have.
And Nymph's Kiss is no exception. It is actually very clear in what the feat represents: "By maintaining an intimate relationship with a good-aligned Fey" you get powers. Roy could take Nymph's Kiss, Durkon could not.

Yeah, I have a lot of grumbling and critiquing here, but to the authors, not you.

Cool, one thought for you in specific: Forgery. You should only need 1 check per day to make some kind of deceptive document which gets you further away from trouble (or deeper inside if that's where you wanted to go).

Forgery is definitely a way how I imagine this guy can support the social part of the game. The rogue (despite my thoughts earlier that he'd be all hide/search/disarm type skills) and I both have some social skills, but neither have a stellar charisma like if the party face was diplomacy-paladin or bluff-bard or whatever. Offsetting that will be a central focus, I am sure.

Thanks!

Kelb_Panthera

2018-09-24, 04:30 PM

Reminder for you nymph's kiss fans: intimate doesn't have to mean physically intimate. A deeply valued long-term friendship can be accurately described as "intimate" too.

Nifft

2018-09-24, 04:38 PM

Reminder for you nymph's kiss fans: intimate doesn't have to mean physically intimate. A deeply valued long-term friendship can be accurately described as "intimate" too.

"There's nothing physical between me and the Nymph. She blinded me with science, not beauty!"

Willie the Duck

2018-09-26, 08:06 AM

ntimate doesn't have to mean physically intimate.

Inarguably true. Given the way the term is predominantly used on modern conversation (as a euphemism for physically intimate), it was potentially a poor choice on the BoED's authors to use that term unless they were trying to hint at something. Not what I'm looking for in my gaming, though (well, unless I was actively choosing the character concept of "lover to beautiful, but truly alien, entity," which would probably be the character's defining feature).

"There's nothing physical between me and the Nymph. She blinded me with [I]science, not beauty!"

Not bad. I see the concept as the nymph being effectively a muse.

Anyways, another session Thursday night. I will try to make an update Friday.

Willie the Duck

2018-10-01, 09:53 AM

Late on the update, it was a busy weekend.

Adventure 2: As expected, a lot of survival and improv.
The party had fled into the wilderness wearing day-to-day around the city wear, having little equipment other than documents related to our case, knives, pouches, and the one guy who had rope and climbing gear.
Survival, Climb, Handle Animal, and Search came into play to endure the wilderness. Fortunately we had two outdoorsy guys in the party, and they were kids in a candy store in getting to use their abilities. Rope got unbraided and turned into fishing line. Sharpened stick spear fishing was attempted. Figuring out how to get wood off of trees without an axe, how far firelight travels at night (and a discussion about how well one could hide in a real medieval 'being farmed for wattle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wattle_(construction)) timber) was a half-hour discussion.

Eventually it was determined that two survivalists could keep themselves and five others (four of which were healthy, with the Warblade still recovering) alive and hidden for a day or two.

The rogue and duskblade (who has sense motive, to help with 'do you think they're just going to head straight to the authorities' type analysis) sweet talked a woodsman and his son to find out what was going on in town. Apparently the murder was the talk of the town, but the scuttlebutt was that the authorities didn't know what had transpired. So the rogue snuck back into town, got the rest of our notes (and some hatchets and wool clothes), and we started about reframing the narrative. A cut-up bit of note from the 'head-of-secret-police guy' made it look like we were working for him. We came back into town, bluffed that we'd fled because we thought we were being targeted for assassination (as opposed to because we thought we were being framed for the guy's assassination), and stated that we'd been investigating these other agents for him. We'll see if later developments will cause this to fall apart. At the moment, this seems at least plausible to the authorities, although they don't trust us with questioning others, conducting our own investigation, or leaving town. Given that those other agents are out there (at this point who knows where, or doing what), we might sneak out regardless, but we'll have to have some amazing evidence to back us up if we want to come back after that.

A shorter session, and one leaving us with a big decision on what to do next. Do we think we need to leave to prove the other agents were the killers? Are we being outflanked if we stay in town? Are there still active actions against us at all, or have the agents just hightailed it back home? Lots of questions before we even start addressing the underlying plot.