The Superior Sword: +2 or Flametongue

[Grear Bylls]

Hey guys!

Just finished up white plume mountain in AL (just before season 8!), and I've grabbed a +2 Greatsword. However, my character already has a Flametongue Greatsword. This has been causing me to wonder: which sword is statistically better?

The character I have is a Fighter 1/Abjurer 6, and has GWM, Mobile, BB, and GFB. It's based around casting Haste, running in, dealing damage, running out, and deflecting as many attacks as possible.

My base damage (no magic sword) is +7 to hit, 2d6+1d8+4 damage. GWM brings it to +2 to hit, 2d6+1d8+14. Additionally, I have a familiar (help action) and GWF. This makes Damage averages 15.5 for normal attacks, 25.5 for power attacks. I should also be able to trigger the bonus 2d8 regularly, due to mobile, for an extra 9 damage.

I typically get another attack (Haste) for 11 or 21 points (based on if I power attacked). Additionally, my bonus action is utilized for another attack if I kill or crit (11 or 21 more). These two were calculated without Booming Blade.

However, I haven't been calculating AC, Magic Item abilities, Immunities and Resistances, or anything else. That's what I've come to you for: to determine which weapon to use and when to power attack with it. Would you guys be willing to help me out?

Thanks in advance!

[Kane0]

I'd go with the Flametongue, mostly because it's more interesting.

It comes down to how much you use your -5/+10 and your bonus action. Even against resistance the bonus fire damage evens out but the +2 difference in to-hit is where the difference comes into play. If you only make 1 or 2 attacks per round, you won't want them to miss.

[LudicSavant]

Hey guys!

Just finished up white plume mountain in AL (just before season 8!), and I've grabbed a +2 Greatsword. However, my character already has a Flametongue Greatsword. This has been causing me to wonder: which sword is statistically better?

The character I have is a Fighter 1/Abjurer 6, and has GWM, Mobile, BB, and GFB. It's based around casting Haste, running in, dealing damage, running out, and deflecting as many attacks as possible.

My base damage (no magic sword) is +7 to hit, 2d6+1d8+4 damage. GWM brings it to +2 to hit, 2d6+1d8+14. Additionally, I have a familiar (help action) and GWF. This makes Damage averages 15.5 for normal attacks, 25.5 for power attacks. I typically get another attack (Haste) for 11 or 21 points. Additionally, my bonus action is utilized for another attack if I kill or crit (11 or 21 more).

However, I haven't been calculating AC, Magic Item abilities, Immunities and Resistances, or anything else. That's what I've come to you for: to determine which weapon to use and when to power attack with it. Would you guys be willing to help me out?

Thanks in advance!

Is the "2d6+1d8+4" supposed to be counting in Booming Blade as "base" damage?

This is important to know for the calculations since, for instance, it wouldn't apply to all of your attacks (such as your bonus action attack from GWM crits).

[Grear Bylls]

Is the "2d6+1d8+4" supposed to be counting in Booming Blade as "base" damage?

This is important to know for the calculations since, for instance, it wouldn't apply to all of your attacks (such as your bonus action attack from GWM crits).

Ah yes, it is. Otherwise it's 4.5 less per strike

[PeteNutButter]

It depends on enemy AC.
For the majority of ACs 12-20 you'll do the most damage with the Flame Tongue and not using GWM. Use GWM below AC 12 and the +2 weapon for ACs 21+.

If you have advantage you should use GWM Flame Tongue against enemies below 16 AC. Attacking exactly 16 AC with advantage, you'll do the most damage with the +2 weapon and using GWM. Above that, ACs 17+ you're best off using the Flame Tongue without using the GWM feature.
Note:
-In practice you'll find that there are a decent amount of enemies immune or resistant to fire. It's nice to have that +2 weapon for when they come around.
-The higher you go in level the more the +2 becomes less essential. Hit chance tends to go up much more than enemy AC and damage.
-The math above is presuming maximizing DPR, which isn't always the goal. Often you want to hit things, and be more consistent. Since you usually won't know enemy AC, the best approach is probably just to swing normally without the GWM against most foes unless you are confident their AC is weak.
-As you go up in level and getting higher proficiency or chance to hit in other ways, you can more reliably use GWM.

(The nerd in me got delighted to see the way the curves cross leaving just AC 16 where the +2 weapon was the best choice.)

[Exocist]

Let's see. I assume you are Variant Human and took GWM as your first level feat, so you should have a 60% chance to-hit at your current level.

Flametongue damage = 0.6 (4d6 + 4) = 0.6 (18) = 10.8 damage per swing.
+2 Greatsword damage = 0.7 (2d6 + 6) = 0.7 (13) = 9.1 damage per swing.
+2 Greatsword w/ GWM damage = 0.45 (2d6 + 16) = 0.45 (23) = 10.35 damage per swing.

Any extra damage (such as by BB or GFB) will make GWM a worse option, and it would require a fair chunk of bonus damage per swing to make the +2 to-hit matter more than the +5 damage (over the +2 weapon) of the Flametongue.

It seems PeteNutButter is on the ball for this one anyway - these the average results if you wanted to know.

[sithlordnergal]

So, I have been fortunate enough to get a Rod of Lordly Might from the final boss in Storm King's Thunder. It can turn into +3 weapons, ranging from +3 spears to a +3 battleaxe. It can also turn into a Flame Tongue Longsword, and I am going to be honest. The Flame Tongue has been the form I use the most.

[Grear Bylls]

It depends on enemy AC.
For the majority of ACs 12-20 you'll do the most damage with the Flame Tongue and not using GWM. Use GWM below AC 12 and the +2 weapon for ACs 21+.

If you have advantage you should use GWM Flame Tongue against enemies below 16 AC. Attacking exactly 16 AC with advantage, you'll do the most damage with the +2 weapon and using GWM. Above that, ACs 17+ you're best off using the Flame Tongue without using the GWM feature.
Note:
-In practice you'll find that there are a decent amount of enemies immune or resistant to fire. It's nice to have that +2 weapon for when they come around.
-The higher you go in level the more the +2 becomes less essential. Hit chance tends to go up much more than enemy AC and damage.
-The math above is presuming maximizing DPR, which isn't always the goal. Often you want to hit things, and be more consistent. Since you usually won't know enemy AC, the best approach is probably just to swing normally without the GWM against most foes unless you are confident their AC is weak.
-As you go up in level and getting higher proficiency or chance to hit in other ways, you can more reliably use GWM.

(The nerd in me got delighted to see the way the curves cross leaving just AC 16 where the +2 weapon was the best choice.)

Once again, PeteNutButter has assisted me in making the optimal Flametongue Greatsword build! Do you by any chance have the chart, or graph, or whatever you used to figure this out? It'd be interesting to see the stats and whatnot.

[PeteNutButter]

Once again, PeteNutButter has assisted me in making the optimal Flametongue Greatsword build! Do you by any chance have the chart, or graph, or whatever you used to figure this out? It'd be interesting to see the stats and whatnot.

Alas when I try to copy anything from an excel file it doesn’t seem to work. It just does text only.

[Grear Bylls]

Alas when I try to copy anything from an excel file it doesn’t seem to work. It just does text only.

Ah. Oh well.

If i were to Up my proficiency bonus, or strength bonus, would I just increase the optimal AC (i.e. From 12 to 13 to 14)?

[PeteNutButter]

Ah. Oh well.

If i were to Up my proficiency bonus, or strength bonus, would I just increase the optimal AC (i.e. From 12 to 13 to 14)?

Yeah basically. If your chance to hit goes up one you can reasonably GWM against one higher AC. The math gets a tiny bit fiddly when you consider that strength also adds damage, but since your damage is so high already it’s likely negligible.

I’d point out that the difference is often only a fraction of a point in DPR. So you can go GWM or not and it gives you .35 damage difference or so. Only on the extremes does it make a big difference. So a whole lot of math basically tells you what you already know: swing big against crappy AC and use calculated strikes against high AC.