Character concept: 9th-level arcane caster with no base caster classes

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Soooooo.. I like crazy ideas. I like ideas that "shouldn't" work but can because 3.5 has so much crazy flexibility in it. (I do the same in M:TG as well - I'm working on Mono-Red Reanimator for Modern, just for lulz.)

At this point, I'm just trying to find a good starting class. I'm penciling in a Barbarian, but my original sketching says it requires an Intelligence of 14. Maybe I mis-mathed somewhere? I originally went with Ranger but then I realized that's a caster as well. (Mind you, it's divine casting. Does that count? IDK) The optimal base class is a full-BAB class with 6+ skill points and no ability to cast spells.

This isn't a fully-fleshed-out build, more a matter of "Does this work how I want it to?" And are there better ways to accomplish the same goal?

Human Barbarian 6/Suel Arcanamach 1/Virtuoso 4/Sublime Chord 9
Level 1 feats: Able Learner, Iron Will
Level 3 feat: Combat Casting
Other feats: As you wish.

L1: Conc 4, Jump 4, Tumb 4, Diplo 4, Intim 4, Spcr 4, P(ast) 4
L2: Spcr 1, P(ast) 1, Perf 5
L3: Spcr 1, List 6
L4: KArc 7
L5: Perf 3, P(ast)1, List 3
L6: Perf 1, KArc 5, List 1
L7: Suel Arcanamach 1; KArc 1, Perform 2, Listen 1
L8: Virtuoso 1; Listen 2
L9: Virtuoso 2 (SA casting)
L10: Virtuoso 3 (SA casting)
L11: Virtuoso 4 (SA casting)
L12-20: Sublime Chord

[ Spcr = Spellcraft; P(ast) = Profession (astrologer); KArc = Knowledge (Arcana). SA casting = advance Suel Arcanamach casting ]

Feedback plzkthxbai? :D

Mindstab Thrull
Nomming ur sanities since 1863 BSE (Before the Sarpadian Empires)

[Khedrac]

At level 1 you are limited to 2 ranks in the cross-class skills - Able learner halves their cost but does not change the cap.

[Gusmo]

I think the only other arcane casting prestige class that has a progression to 9th level is beholder mage. Beyond that, you're only looking at stuff like ilithid savant, or sketchy stuff like taking a prestige class with 6th level spells and using heighten tricks to perhaps cast 9th level domain spells or some nonsense. So I think you're on the right track with a sublime chord build of some kind

[Zaq]

Might use another full-BAB class rather than Barbarian (plus or minus a dip for Pounce). I get the cheekiness of starting as a Barb and ending with 9th level spells, but since Rage doesn’t play nice with spells, anything past Barb 2 (for Uncanny Dodge) is likely to be wasted. Not that you get a whole ton of Rage out of Barb anyway, but you get me.

Ranger has full BAB, has 6 skill points, and has an ACF that trades away their spells for some crappy bonus feats. It’s a losing trade overall (even if you never get enough levels to cast Ranger spells, being able to use wands of Ranger spells without rolling UMD is useful), but if “zero spell access prior to PrCing” is mission-critical to you, it’s an option.

[ezekielraiden]

Isn't Monk sort of the definition of "great dip, terrible otherwise"? If you aren't *totally* set on full BAB it might be worthwhile. Is there a full-BAB monk variant somewhere?

Edit: the Battle Dancer from Dragon Compendium should work. It also has the advantage of Cha to AC instead of Wis, to play more nicely with Sublime Chord. It's only four skills, not six, but otherwise seems pretty good for what you want. Skill list might be a problem though, lacking Diplomacy *and* Intimidate (odd, given the aggressive dances...)

Edit 2: Wait, BIG problem. Virtuoso requires being able to cast 0th-level spells (with the "cantrips" clarification). Suel Arcanamach doesn't give 0th level, only 1st level, so the build as given doesn't work.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Slightly cheeky, but a black ethergaunt casts as a 17th-level wizard, and has no wizard levels :smalltongue:.

Joking aside, this might work for you:


Illumian rogue 1/fighter 2/cobra strike monk 2/assassin 1/warrior skald 1/telflammar shadowlord 1/ultimate magus 2/sublime chord 2/ultimate magus +8
Feats: Improved Krau Sigil1, Blind-Fightflaw, Power Attackfighter 1, Cleavefighter 2, Practiced Spellcaster (Assassin)3, Dodgemonk 1, Mobilitymonk 2, Spring Attack6

Yeah... it's too many feats. You need them all before ECL 7, too. Skill ranks are even worse.

It's a bit odd, because you're theurging two Intelligence-based arcane casters with Sublime Chord, which is Charisma-based. However, you can base your bonus spells off of Dexterity with the Uurkrau power word, and that saves the build somewhat. You requiring some Intelligence (13) and Charisma (19), but as long as you don't care about save DCs, that should be doable. After all, you don't really start needing them until you can already afford a +4 cloak of charisma.

(ignoring IKS and Arcane Spell Power CL boosts for what follows)

ECL 8: A1 @ CL 5 and TFSL 1 @ CL 1.
ECL 9: A1 @ CL 5 and TFSL 2 @ CL 2.
ECL 10: A2 @ CL 6 and TFSL 3 @ CL 3.
ECL 11: A2 @ CL 6 and TFSL 3 @ CL 3+1 and SC 1 @ CL 1+3.
ECL 12: A2 @ CL 6 and TFSL 3 @ CL 3+2 and SC 2 @ CL 2+3.
ECL 13: A2 @ CL 7 and TFSL 4 @ CL 4+3 and SC 3 @ CL 3+4.
ECL 14: A2 @ CL 8 and TFSL 4 @ CL 4+4 and SC 4 @ CL 4+4.
ECL 15: A2 @ CL 10 and TFSL 5 @ CL 5+5 and SC 5 @ CL 5+5.
ECL 16: A2 @ CL 11 and TFSL 6 @ CL 6+6 and SC 6 @ CL 6+6.
ECL 17: A2 @ CL 13 and TFSL 6 @ CL 6+7 and SC 7 @ CL 7+6.
ECL 18: A2 @ CL 14 and TFSL 6 @ CL 6+8 and SC 8 @ CL 8+6.
ECL 19: A2 @ CL 15 and TFSL 6 @ CL 6+9 and SC 9 @ CL 9+6.
ECL 20: A2 @ CL 16 and TFSL 6 @ CL 6+10 and SC 10 @ CL 10+6.

On top of that is +2 CL from IKS and +4 from ASP, for a total CL of 22 for all three classes (24 with Practiced Spellcaster (TFSL))... unless you decide that the SC/TFSL stacking doesn't occur until after IKS and ASP are applied, then it's 28 (32). I'm also assuming that UM 8-10 can't improve TFSL casting beyond 6th level. If it can, add another 3 CL.

Amusingly, you get to add a 4th- and 5th-level spell from your TFSL spellbook to your SC spell list, and you can't even cast 4ths and 5ths as TFSL spells.



That worked out to be waaay messier than I thought. Geez.

[lbuttitta]

The build looks legitimate to me; props on using Suel Arcanamach to enter Virtuoso for Bardic Music. I'm too lazy to check it in detail, though, so I may have missed something.

Also, consider using Knight of the Weave instead of the Arcanamach; you can enter Knight at level 5, which leaves more space for prestige class shenanigans.

[Zaq]

Edit 2: Wait, BIG problem. Virtuoso requires being able to cast 0th-level spells (with the "cantrips" clarification). Suel Arcanamach doesn't give 0th level, only 1st level, so the build as given doesn't work.

Are you looking at a Virtuoso other than the one in CAdv? There’s nothing about cantrips in the one I’m looking at. Just Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Perform 10, and arcane caster level 1st. What are you looking at?

[Ignimortis]

The issue I see is that you put 4 ranks into Spellcraft and Tumble as a Barbarian at 1st level, and Profession (Astrologer). However, you can grab Keeper of Forbidden Lore (Fiendish Codex I) to get Spellcraft as a class skill (replace Iron Will and shift it to level 5) and trade in your Barb skills for their equivalent as described in the Skilled City-Dweller ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). You might have to re-jigger your other skill points to accommodate P(ast) after you take non-Barb levels.

However, it's much easier to do if you just take Ranger levels and trade out spellcasting with ACFs - rangers get Professions as class skills, and getting Spellcraft is still easy. Hilariously, you can take Shooting Star sub levels after actually having traded out spellcasting, which give you Spellcraft and K(arc) at level 3. In that case, take Apprentice (Entertainer) to get Perform and Diplomacy as class skills.

You get 8+ skillpoints per level, so as per your template:

Human Champion of the Wild (ComCha) Ranger 6 (Shooting Star sub level at 3, not further)/Suel Arcanamach 1/Virtuoso 4/Sublime Chord 9
Level 1 feats: Able Learner, Apprentice (Entertainer)
Level 3 feat: Combat Casting
Level 5 feat: Iron Will
Other feats: As you wish.

L1: Conc 4 (class), Jump 4 (class), Tumb 4 (class as per Skilled City-Dweller), Diplo 4 (from Apprentice), Intim 2 (not class, but you only need 4), Spcr 2 (not class), P(ast) 4 (class)
L2: P(ast) 1, Perf 5 (from Apprentice), K(Rel) 1 (for Shooting Star)
L3: Spcr 2 (now class), List 6 (class)
L4: KArc 7 (now class), Spcr 1
L5: Intim 2, w/e

Proceed as planned.



Edit 2: Wait, BIG problem. Virtuoso requires being able to cast 0th-level spells (with the "cantrips" clarification). Suel Arcanamach doesn't give 0th level, only 1st level, so the build as given doesn't work.

Song and Silence version is outdated.

[ezekielraiden]

Are you looking at a Virtuoso other than the one in CAdv? There’s nothing about cantrips in the one I’m looking at. Just Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Perform 10, and arcane caster level 1st. What are you looking at?

Ah, as others have noted I was using the outdated Song and Silence one. The newer CAdv version is 9/10 casting and has 1st level casting as a requirement.

Also, if Knight of the Weave tickles your fancy, a spell-less Paladin variant might appeal. Divine Grace is a nice ability on Cha-focused characters. Complete Champion offers one with bonus feats, if that would be useful to you.

[Tarlendo]

I played a similar character a long time ago. the key was trapsmith from dungeonscape. I also used able learner, fighter, ranger with trap sense and even barbarian with a variant but dont remeber which one. Got to 16 bab and lots of goodies i even threw a warblade level in there. Anyway trapsmith might be able to help you. Dont have the exact build at hand but in a few days i could have it when im back from my trip

[Thurbane]

Here's a link to The Suel Arcanamach Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?159617); lot's if useful info and advice.