Being Daredevil: an idea and some rules questions

[AureusFulgens]

So I had a hilarious idea. With some cooperation from your DM - see also http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?567563-Passive-Perception-vs-Perception-Check for a discussion of the relevant rules question - you can pull off the following:

Be a Moon Druid.
Get proficiency in Perception.
Get the Observant feat.
Max out Wisdom at the earliest opportunity.
Cast Fog Cloud or Darkness.
Transform into a Dire Wolf, or something else that has Keen Senses for something other than sight.
Be the mother-flipping Daredevil.

If your DM does things favorably - this being the central rules question at stake - then by default your Passive Perception relying on Hearing/Smell/whatever is 25 + Proficiency bonus (25 = 10 + Wisdom + Observant + Advantage), suggesting that you should probably have clear-as-day senses of the battlefield even if you are totally blind. So, even under cover of an obscuring spell, you should be able to fight normally while everyone else is stumbling around like an idiot.

This probably doesn't fly if you're being super-serious about RAW, since (a) the Blinded condition normally imposes disadvantage, and (b) I'm not entirely sure how the passive Perception rules work, and it might vary by table. But, if you're playing as a creature that explicitly has sight as not its best sense, I feel like there's a reasonable justification.

The less technical restriction is probably that your party is NOT Daredevil, and cannot fight in total darkness/obscuring.

Rules thoughts? Improvements? Ideas?

EDIT: There are probably two contexts worth considering this in. One, I might be using this in a casual campaign being DMed by a relatively permissive friend of mine who I have sold the idea to. Two, the normal "does this work in general" context.

[PeteNutButter]

Doesn’t work RAW.

A few things to note:
-Rogues get blindsense 10 ft at level 14 so can do this trick RAW.
-Warlocks generally do this same trick with darkness and devil’s sight as early as 3rd level. Although, devils obviously see through it.
-A few animals actually get blindsight as well but they are generally weak/aquatic as far as I know.

IMO if a DM were to allow it, it should be about as difficult to accomplish as a 3 level warlock dip. Fewer enemies will be able to see through it than darkness, but fog cloud is pretty easy to get rid of ala strong wind etc.

[MagneticKitty]

We have a shadow monk with darkness and I'm a moondruid. I plan on using the giant spider (cr 1) because it has blindsight. (Which means seeing with a sight other than eyes) I think some snakes have it too.

Not sure if perception would work. You still don't know how big the thing is or what shape it is, I'd rule still disadvantage using only smell.

Edit: giant constrictor snake would be your cr 2 option for this. It has blindsight.

[AureusFulgens]

Doesn’t work RAW.

A few things to note:
-Rogues get blindsense 10 ft at level 14 so can do this trick RAW.
-Warlocks generally do this same trick with darkness and devil’s sight as early as 3rd level. Although, devils obviously see through it.
-A few animals actually get blindsight as well but they are generally weak/aquatic as far as I know.

IMO if a DM were to allow it, it should be about as difficult to accomplish as a 3 level warlock dip. Fewer enemies will be able to see through it than darkness, but fog cloud is pretty easy to get rid of ala strong wind etc.

Fair point. Like I said, I had a feeling this would be a long shot.


We have a shadow monk with darkness and I'm a moondruid. I plan on using the giant spider (cr 1) because it has blindsight. (Which means seeing with a sight other than eyes) I think some snakes have it too.

Not sure if perception would work. You still don't know how big the thing is or what shape it is, I'd rule still disadvantage using only smell.

Giant Spiders have blindsight? Dang, I should check that out.

My thought was more based on hearing than smell. Would that make a difference to you? (You're a wolf with stupid-high Perception, so it feels like hearing its footsteps, hearing the air rushing around it, hearing its breath, etc. is pretty reasonable. I don't have much sense of what a 28-30 Perception roll entails.)

Again: I had a feeling this was a long shot. Just curious how far I can push it.

[MagneticKitty]

Fair point. Like I said, I had a feeling this would be a long shot.

Giant Spiders have blindsight? Dang, I should check that out.

My thought was more based on hearing than smell. Would that make a difference to you? (You're a wolf with stupid-high Perception, so it feels like hearing its footsteps, hearing the air rushing around it, hearing its breath, etc. is pretty reasonable. I don't have much sense of what a 28-30 Perception roll entails.)

Again: I had a feeling this was a long shot. Just curious how far I can push it.

I would say no if I were dm. You can't hear if it's person shaped or blobbly. You don't know its dimensions from hearing unless you're a bat, in which case you've graduated to blindsight. I would say you can't give echolocation to a creature who's brain and instincts are not built to have echolocation. Biology doesnt work that way.
Look at it this way, without your senses youd be telling me which square you were attacking (i would have picked up the token) you might be attacking the complete wrong square. At least with these senses you're attacking the right square just at disadvantage for not knowing where in their square they are or how big they are (aka where to bite) thats how i'd play it at least.

When youre in fog its as if both of you are invisable... actually now that I think about it..

If you're attacking while invisible you have advantage. If you're attacking something invisible you have disadvantage. So it cancels out.

I once wanted to play a blind caster who sees through their familiar, sadly this takes an action so it would not be feasible raw. Would have to be homebrew.

[Grear Bylls]

I would say no if I were dm. You can't hear if it's person shaped or blobbly. You don't know its dimensions from hearing unless you're a bat, in which case you've graduated to blindsight. I would say you can't give echolocation to a creature who's brain and instincts are not built to have echolocation. Biology doesnt work that way. Look at it this way, without your senses youd be telling me which square you were attacking (i would have picked up the tolen) you might be attacking the complete wrong square. At least with these senses you're attacking the right square just at disadvantage for not knowing where in their square they are or how big they are (aka where to bite) thats how i'd play it at least.

Actually, that's not quite true. There are some blind people (and some that aren't even blind) who have learned how to use echolocation. He can ride a bike while blind! Granted, it isnt like they could duel a professional swordsman IRL, but this fantasy dammit! If a wizard can summon beings from hell, why cant a blind guy have some bonus echolocation?

Seriously, look up Daniel Kish. It's pretty cool

[MagneticKitty]

Yes I've seen this. There's a difference between knowing the general vicinity of objects and knowing how much space they take up and where to hit them. Where the gap in their armor is, and if they ducked or leaned to the side. Which is exactly what I said above. You don't have to guess what square they're in (by my table interpretation, not raw)

also this person had a lifetime of almost nothing but this to adjust to, you're using it periodically maybe 1-5 minutes a day.

[Grear Bylls]

Yes I've seen this. There's a difference between knowing the general vicinity of objects and knowing how much space they take up and where to hit them. Where the gap in their armor is, and if they ducked or leaned to the side. Which is exactly what I said above. You don't have to guess what square they're in (by my table interpretation, not raw)

also this person had a lifetime of almost nothing but this to adjust to, you're using it periodically maybe 1-5 minutes a day.

I did point that out in my post. I don't see if a first level caster fuse matter at will without leaving a scratch, or make fires spring into existance, or literally close fatal wounds with a murmur and a hand gesture, why can't something that exists IRL be amplified to a slight bit more of an extreme.

Also, what else would a blind character who's focused on using echolocation be doing? Sitting around watching reruns?

[MagneticKitty]

I did point that out in my post. I don't see if a first level caster fuse matter at will without leaving a scratch, or make fires spring into existance, or literally close fatal wounds with a murmur and a hand gesture, why can't something that exists IRL be amplified to a slight bit more of an extreme.

Also, what else would a blind character who's focused on using echolocation be doing? Sitting around watching reruns?

I didn't see that the OP's character was blind for life (which yours could be, I dunno). in which case I'd be more likely to allow.. but I thought this was trying to make a battle combo by cheesing things.

[Vogie]

The closest analog to Daredevil would probably be the Gloom Stalker Ranger, attacking at night - it's negation of other target's darkvision allows you to give you a mechanical equivalent to blindsight without actually having it, and the additional attack on the first turn gives you the feel of a surprise round.

You would want to pick up the Control Flames Cantrip to be able to take out any lights, torches or candles before the fight so you can get those darkvision bonuses. Druidcraft could also work.

If you must have blindsight, the easiest way to do it is Arcane Trickster Rogue 14 / GS Ranger 3. Then you'd be able to pick up Control Flames without grabbing magic initiate

[Toadkiller]

I imagine a “blindsense feat” could be home brewed.

You gain blindsense enabling you to function regardless of light level, including magical darkness, fog etc. Your blindsense replaces your normal vision and extends 60 feet. You can “see” nothing beyond that point. You cannot use this sense to read, discern color or visual patterns. You are at disadvantage against incorporeal creatures or effects and can not detect illusions that are visual only.

Might need more disadvantages.

[Vogie]

I could imagine porting the pathfinder Aerialist's Rod (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicRodsDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Aerialist's Rod) into Daredevil's "billy club"

Billy Club
This +1 club has the Thrown (20/60) property
As a bonus action, the club extends to 6 feet in length and grants its holder a +5 Acrobatics checks and dexterity saving throws in this form. In addition, the club also acts as a quarterstaff (1d8, versatile 1d10). You can retract the staff into a club as a bonus action.
In addition, you can use an action have a line of rope lash out from the end of the club and anchors in a ceiling, building, branch, or other overhang up to 70 feet away. You can use the rope as a grappling hook, or to swing across a gap, with a Acrobatics check. The DC for this check is 10 + a tenth of the distance of the gap (an 50 foot gap would be a DC of 15, a 100 ft gap would be a DC of 20).

[Talionis]

One of the things you can do is maneuver through a fog cloud by using a familar's senses. It takes an action to use the familiar's sense's but it leaves you with your bonus action and movement. This works especially well for escapes.