Yet another build idea for extra damage... Rogue Paladin...

[samcifer]

So this idea is for a rogue/dex-based paladin. I'd take either Tabaxi or Half-elf for race, swashbuckler for easier to get sneak attacks and for paladin class, I was thinking conquest, but am open to other subclass options. I'd sword and board for extra defenses and take Dueling for fighting style with rapier to get the most sneak attack damage I can since I'd be limited to finesse weapons. Maybe I'd take the heavy armor mastery feat for added incoming damage reduction. I'd considered adding in a few levels of barbarian for added resistances, but that'd be 3 unneeded levels in an off class and make me have to focus on strength when I can get plenty of damage out of dexterity.

Thoughts? Suggestions? (and yes, I know I can only use sneak attack damage once per turn as well as smite using up spell slots, so I couldn't do this very often, but I like the concept)

[PeteNutButter]

So this idea is for a rogue/dex-based paladin. I'd take either Tabaxi or Half-elf for race, swashbuckler for easier to get sneak attacks and for paladin class, I was thinking conquest, but am open to other subclass options. I'd sword and board for extra defenses and take Dueling for fighting style with rapier to get the most sneak attack damage I can since I'd be limited to finesse weapons. Maybe I'd take the heavy armor mastery feat for added incoming damage reduction. I'd considered adding in a few levels of barbarian for added resistances, but that'd be 3 unneeded levels in an off class and make me have to focus on strength when I can get plenty of damage out of dexterity.

Thoughts? Suggestions? (and yes, I know I can only use sneak attack damage once per turn as well as smite using up spell slots, so I couldn't do this very often, but I like the concept)

It's one of those builds that sounds great in theory, but in practice just doesn't work all that well. MCing paladin for smites is generally underwhelming if you aren't already some manner of caster. The amount of smites is just too few and far between. If you actually play a full adventuring day you'd get way more damage out of more rogue levels for more sneak attack. Fighter gets extra attack without being MAD and barbarian is only a little MAD for a good defense boost.

Having seen it in play, I was underwhelmed.

People often think to pair paladin with swashbuckler to make something out of the cha. Consider maybe sorcerer instead. Quicken BB, then ready BB for someone else's turn and you double your sneak attack output. Works even better with haste.

[Snowbluff]

How much paladin are you taking?

2 levels gets you smite, which can supplement an arcane trickster. (Booming Blade build, which I've seen used well.)
5 levels is extra attack, which is some good easy damage and more SA opportunities.
Level 6 is cha to saves.
Really 2 or 6 paladin on a full AT is probably just fine.

However, I think that Bard kind of does a little better for a smiting build.
2 Paladin on a swords bard gets more spell slots and extra attack.
6 Paladin for the aura and extra attack meshes will with Whispers Bard for more damage, which scales similarly to SA.

[samcifer]

How much paladin are you taking?

2 levels gets you smite, which can supplement an arcane trickster. (Booming Blade build, which I've seen used well.)
5 levels is extra attack, which is some good easy damage and more SA opportunities.
Level 6 is cha to saves.
Really 2 or 6 paladin on a full AT is probably just fine.

However, I think that Bard kind of does a little better for a smiting build.
2 Paladin on a swords bard gets more spell slots and extra attack.
6 Paladin for the aura and extra attack meshes will with Whispers Bard for more damage, which scales similarly to SA.

I was thinking pal 6 / rogue 4 to start with, then maybe go to rouge 8 and the rest as pal.

[Snowbluff]

I was thinking pal 6 / rogue 4 to start with, then maybe go to rouge 8 and the rest as pal.

Yeah, this isn't a bad spread at all. You get Improved Smite and some SA. Also, paladins tend not to have a good reaction, so Uncanny Dodge is nice. Basically, you'd probably be an improved paladin in terms of consistent damage. Arcane Trickster would be my go to for a couple of slot levels. I'd consider weighing Paladin12 versus Rogue9. You'd lose an ASI, but you'd get one more SA die.

[CTurbo]

Paladin/Swords bard is a better combo, but a Dex Paladin/Swashbuckler build can be really good. I'd probably stick to 5 levels of Rogue and stay Paladin for the other 15. Probably Pally 6, Rogue 5, then Pally from there.

Maybe even Pally 6, Swash 5, Swords Bard 9 would work best actually. You need a lot of slots to smite with to make it worth it.

[samcifer]

Paladin/Swords bard is a better combo, but a Dex Paladin/Swashbuckler build can be really good. I'd probably stick to 5 levels of Rogue and stay Paladin for the other 15. Probably Pally 6, Rogue 5, then Pally from there.

Maybe even Pally 6, Swash 5, Swords Bard 9 would work best actually. You need a lot of slots to smite with to make it worth it.

Yeah, but the point is to get the extra damage from SA, which bards don't have. All bards offer is more spell slots but no extra damage methods.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, but the point is to get the extra damage from SA, which bards don't have. All bards offer is more spell slots but no extra damage methods.

Swords bards use inspiration for damage with an AC bonus. (This is better if you’re just dipping 2 levels of paladin).
Whisper bards add xd6 with their Psychic Blades. (This is better if you already have extra attack, IMO).

Also, bard levels can let you recoup lost paladin spells with magic secrets. Holy Weapon is a good +2d8 weapon buff.

[CTurbo]

Yeah, but the point is to get the extra damage from SA, which bards don't have. All bards offer is more spell slots but no extra damage methods.


I know that's why I threw out the Pally, Swords Bard, Rogue triple class


Too many Rogue levels and you have very few spell slots to smite with. Too many Paladin levels and you don't have much sneak attack damage.

I could see maybe Pally 6, Swash 7, Swords 7

[samcifer]

So I made up a bugbear conquest pal 6 / whispers bard 4 gwf and have 11 spell slots to use (4/3/3/1). Sounds playable so far, nut have no experience with builds like this. (I avoided a polearm master - sentinel build because another player in our group is playing a fallen aasmir pal going that way already).

[Quoxis]

I wouldn’t take conquest - the subclass relies too much on frightening enemies which really only works if you max cha and have enough spell slots, both of which isn’t really what a rogue multiclass offers - you need to have 13 in cha, str and dex after all.

The oath of vengeance offers some mobility and the cha-independent vow of enmity (plus some neat spells), i‘d grab that and leave cha at 14 - still a bonus, but not too much, so you can concentrate on Dex and Con.
In that case i‘d propose a Paladin 11/Swashbuckler 9 build (yes, you lose out on one ASI, but you get yet another source of bonus damage per attack and still have the panache feature, which doesn’t key off of charisma, but a charisma (persuasion) check - expertise in sweet talk, done.
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

While you’re at it: Rogue (especially swashbuckler) offers mobility, so does vengeance paladin - wearing heavy armor is limiting your movement speed unless you get enough strength, so you can either be a strogue or a 20ft movement dexadin - ironically, the strength rogue is more mobile while wearing heavy armor. Even if your oath feature requires an opponent to leave your range to work you can use the swashbuckler‘s fancy footwork to dive in and out of melee, depending on the situation, so i wouldn’t scrap that opportunity.

[fert1g]

I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet but the assassin's first round of auto-crits pairs quite well with smites. You'll face a tradeoff of sneak attack damage and smite damage so I'd probably take no more than three levels of rogue. This can work well thematically with vengeance paladin as an inquisitor or a demon hunter. This is dependent on your party's stealth capabilities, though.

[Quoxis]

I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet but the assassin's first round of auto-crits pairs quite well with smites. You'll face a tradeoff of sneak attack damage and smite damage so I'd probably take no more than three levels of rogue. This can work well thematically with vengeance paladin as an inquisitor or a demon hunter. This is dependent on your party's stealth capabilities, though.

The crits only work on surprised opponents, so with the exception of ambush-oriented parties and special campaigns tailored for that playstyle, i wouldn’t count on it.
Advantage on the first round against slower creatures is nice though, provided you have the means to attack them - a strength oriented build with heavy armor likely has 13-14 dex, so the initiative bonus is too little to be meaningful, while a dex build with heavy armor only gets 20ft movement (or they can bonus action dash for 40ft and not use smite spells that turn).
A dex build with medium armor would be better, but it‘d require a feat to get the desired high AC.

[samcifer]

So I made up a bugbear conquest pal 6 / whispers bard 4 gwf and have 11 spell slots to use (4/3/3/1). Sounds playable so far, nut have no experience with builds like this. (I avoided a polearm master - sentinel build because another player in our group is playing a fallen aasmir pal going that way already).

After reading up more on the Whispers sub-class, however, I saw that they are limited in the uses of the psychic damage to a maximum of 5 per long rest, which is a bit disappointing, so I'm liking the rogue sa more, which you get every single turn without any further limitations, so I'd rather stick to that.

[samcifer]

Actually, I came up with a better arrangement: Half-Elf with Elven accuracy set to DEX on a vengeance pal/swashbuckler rogue. It may seem redundant for SAs, but this way I'll always be able to get it as well as have a higher chance to crit.

[CTurbo]

Actually, I came up with a better arrangement: Half-Elf with Elven accuracy set to DEX on a vengeance pal/swashbuckler rogue. It may seem redundant for SAs, but this way I'll always be able to get it as well as have a higher chance to crit.


Vengeance/Swashbuckler is a strong choice. I like Devotion/Swashbuckler too, but yeah with Elven Accuracy your Vow of Enmity would be even stronger.