ASI: +2 CON vs. Resilient on a tank

[Greywander]

I've been hammering out an EK build that I want to make the tankiest tank who ever tanked. But I'm noticing that I'm severely deficient in one area of my defenses: saving throws. CON saves are amazing, but DEX and WIS saves are poor, and I don't like the idea of being dominated or eating a bunch of Fireballs.

Because the fighter gets so many ASIs, I took it for granted that I would push CON up to 20, but I'm beginning to rethink if that's really the best way to go. Every +2 to CON gives me (up to, depending on level) 20 extra HP, +1 to my already amazing CON saves, and +1 HP healed per hit die spent. This is all pretty good, but I'm not sure it's better than getting Resilient (DEX or WIS) and leaving my CON at 18 or 16. Heck, even Heavy Armor Master might be a better investment, as you only need to take 7 hits over an adventuring day before you've already saved more than 20 HP, which, by the way, doesn't need to be healed back later.

I mean, I could always get both, but even a fighter only gets so many ASIs and there are a number of other feats I'd like to get, while also pushing STR to 20.

[MaxWilson]

I've been hammering out an EK build that I want to make the tankiest tank who ever tanked. But I'm noticing that I'm severely deficient in one area of my defenses: saving throws. CON saves are amazing, but DEX and WIS saves are poor, and I don't like the idea of being dominated or eating a bunch of Fireballs.

Because the fighter gets so many ASIs, I took it for granted that I would push CON up to 20, but I'm beginning to rethink if that's really the best way to go. Every +2 to CON gives me (up to, depending on level) 20 extra HP, +1 to my already amazing CON saves, and +1 HP healed per hit die spent. This is all pretty good, but I'm not sure it's better than getting Resilient (DEX or WIS) and leaving my CON at 18 or 16. Heck, even Heavy Armor Master might be a better investment, as you only need to take 7 hits over an adventuring day before you've already saved more than 20 HP, which, by the way, doesn't need to be healed back later.

I mean, I could always get both, but even a fighter only gets so many ASIs and there are a number of other feats I'd like to get, while also pushing STR to 20.

Your instincts are telling you that feats are usually going to be better than boosting Con, and overall I think your instincts are correct.

RE: Resilient Dex vs. Resilient Wis, you could also split the difference and go for Lucky, which can be used to simulate, to a limited degree, both Resilient (Dex) and Resilient (Wis) or to negate critical hits (sometimes turning them into clean misses). Three crits turned into regular hits or misses is probably worth something like 30-60 HP over the course of a high-level adventuring day, making it superior to boosting Con even if you only use it for crits instead of to avoiding failing critical Wisdom saves. The main thing about Lucky is that (1) just like a saving throw bonus, it can still fail, and you need to be cognizant of that and not get too disappointed when it happens; (2) you need to judge whether a threat is serious before spending Lucky to prevent it. E.g. don't spend Lucky dice to avoid failing a fear save that would only delay you for a single round in a fight that the PCs are already winning.

[McSkrag]

I think Resilient: WIS is more important than Resilient: DEX because failing a DEX save usually just causes damage, but failing a WIS can take you out of combat or turn you against your party.

A couple other options for beefing up your saves/defenses are taking 2 levels of Wizard. This gives you spell slots, a spell book, and a lot of versatility. Divination gets you Portent for when you really need a roll result (also to annoy your DM) or War Magic gets you Arcane Deflection for +2 AC / +4 Save as a reaction.

The extra spell slots help ensure you always have Shield and Absorb Elements available.

[MaxWilson]

I think Resilient: WIS is more important than Resilient: DEX because failing a DEX save usually just causes damage, but failing a WIS can take you out of combat or turn you against your party.

I hear this a lot but I think it's not exactly true in 5E. E.g.

Web/Evard's Black Tentacles: Dex save, takes you out of combat unless you have ranged weapons.

Caltrops: Dex save, impairs your movement and may take you out of the combat if you don't have ranged weapons.

Petrification Ray (beholder): Dex save, takes you out of the combat and/or out of the game.

Failed Wisdom saves can be bad in a way too, e.g. Fear can take you out of a combat, but fears about being turned against your party are overblown because you get to re-save every time you take damage (like Short Round swinging a torch at Indiana Jones while screaming, "I love you Indy! Wake up!"). And some Wisdom saves, especially saves against Fear, are easy to work around just by e.g. creating some heavy obscurement, or casting Protection From Evil.

Generally I think the difference between Wis and Dex save failurs gets overstated online. IMO the worst kind of saves to fail against MM monsters are actually Con saves (likely to produce e.g. paralyzation which takes you out of combat AND allows enemies to auto-crit you at advantage on their attacks), but as an Eldritch Knight you already have that one covered. One nice thing about Lucky is that you can also use it to beef up your Con saves as necessary, whereas Resilient (Con) would not stack with what you've already got.

Also note that until you get to Level 12ish, Resilient's bonus is fairly small anyway compared to advantage or a Lucky reroll.

[Blood of Gaea]

It would be easier to give advice if you gave us your PC build, particularly Subclass, stats, and your chosen ASI.

But generally Resilient is better than +2 Con.

[Lunali]

I hear this a lot but I think it's not exactly true in 5E. E.g.

Web/Evard's Black Tentacles: Dex save, takes you out of combat unless you have ranged weapons.

Caltrops: Dex save, impairs your movement and may take you out of the combat if you don't have ranged weapons.

Petrification Ray (beholder): Dex save, takes you out of the combat and/or out of the game.

For the first two, I'm of the opinion that if range takes you out of combat, particularly on a class that has access to martial ranged weapons and 120' range cantrips, you have it coming. As for the last, that's specific to beholders and they also have a wis save that can take you out of the combat.

[Greywander]

Your instincts are telling you that feats are usually going to be better than boosting Con, and overall I think your instincts are correct.
The more I consider my options, the more this seems true. If all I wanted to do was tank, I'd still get all the feats I wanted before boosting CON, and there's a lot of feats that can boost your defense.


RE: Resilient Dex vs. Resilient Wis, you could also split the difference and go for Lucky
This is a good point. Lucky is a great feat, although it does better when you roll poorly on something you're normally good at (e.g. a second roll is likely to succeed) rather than trying to save you from something you're bad at (e.g. a second roll is still likely to fail). I'm reevaluating which feats I go for to see if I can get both Resilient WIS and DEX with Lucky.

Although, do note that strictly speaking, you can't take a feat more than once unless it says you can (Elemental Adept is the only one that I know of). Personally, this seems kind of silly, and in particular feats like Resilient and Magic Initiate look like feats you might want to take more than once, depending on your build.


I think Resilient: WIS is more important than Resilient: DEX because failing a DEX save usually just causes damage, but failing a WIS can take you out of combat or turn you against your party.

I hear this a lot but I think it's not exactly true in 5E.
I think it's still mostly on the money. People may overstate the importance of WIS saves over DEX saves, but I still think WIS saves are more important. In any case, if I can get Resilient for both, I'll probably try to get them back-to-back, picking up WIS first.


Also note that until you get to Level 12ish, Resilient's bonus is fairly small anyway compared to advantage or a Lucky reroll.
Good point, if I can possibly squeeze in all three feats, I'll take Lucky before Resilient. Although, I'd probably build my character in such a way that Resilient would even out my ability scores. Still not critical, but the extra +1 to skills will be nice.


It would be easier to give advice if you gave us your PC build, particularly Subclass, stats, and your chosen ASI.

But generally Resilient is better than +2 Con.
It's still a work in progress. Right now, I'm thinking a goliath fighter (EK) all the way through 20, start with STR 17, DEX 8, CON 16, INT 14 WIS 10, CHA 8, but if I go for Resilient I could make both DEX and WIS 9 so I can even them out. The feats I'm considering are, in order of when I get them, Heavy Armor Master, Warcaster, Magic Initiate (Bless), Lucky, Resilient (WIS), Resilient (DEX), STR +2. I may or may not see if I can get Sentinel or Mage Slayer. I'm still evaluating spells.

I'm also trying to figure out if 14 is enough INT for an EK, or if I need to invest in pumping that up some more. Gotta pull off that Hold Person + Action Surge combo when it really counts! Though perhaps Lucky is again a better solution to that particular issue.


For the first two, I'm of the opinion that if range takes you out of combat, particularly on a class that has access to martial ranged weapons and 120' range cantrips, you have it coming. As for the last, that's specific to beholders and they also have a wis save that can take you out of the combat.
Alas, I'm building for Strength, and EKs get precious few cantrips. I'm looking more at cantrips that require a save instead of an attack roll, so that I'm not useless against high AC enemies. All of the cantrips with a range of 120 feet are attack roll based. Still, I can always carry a few javelins.

[TheBirba]

Has no one pointed out that you can reroll your failed saving throws at high levels?

Having said that, I reckon Wisdom is more important than Dexterity when it comes to Saving Throws.

Like everything else, it will also depend on your campaign.

[RSP]

Has no one pointed out that you can reroll your failed saving throws at high levels?

Having said that, I reckon Wisdom is more important than Dexterity when it comes to Saving Throws.

Like everything else, it will also depend on your campaign.

Yeah if taking Lucky to reroll saves, consider that you’ll have Indomitable as well for rerolls. Not that Lucky isn’t good, just want to make sure OP is aware of this.

[MaxWilson]

I'm also trying to figure out if 14 is enough INT for an EK, or if I need to invest in pumping that up some more. Gotta pull off that Hold Person + Action Surge combo when it really counts! Though perhaps Lucky is again a better solution to that particular issue.

Do note that Lucky is no help whatsoever on landing Hold Person on another target--but Eldritch Strike is, and you've got that by level 10.

[McSkrag]

Although, do note that strictly speaking, you can't take a feat more than once unless it says you can (Elemental Adept is the only one that I know of). Personally, this seems kind of silly, and in particular feats like Resilient and Magic Initiate look like feats you might want to take more than once, depending on your build.

I never noticed that by RAW you can't take Resilient more than once. Good to know.

[Citan]

I've been hammering out an EK build that I want to make the tankiest tank who ever tanked. But I'm noticing that I'm severely deficient in one area of my defenses: saving throws. CON saves are amazing, but DEX and WIS saves are poor, and I don't like the idea of being dominated or eating a bunch of Fireballs.

Because the fighter gets so many ASIs, I took it for granted that I would push CON up to 20, but I'm beginning to rethink if that's really the best way to go. Every +2 to CON gives me (up to, depending on level) 20 extra HP, +1 to my already amazing CON saves, and +1 HP healed per hit die spent. This is all pretty good, but I'm not sure it's better than getting Resilient (DEX or WIS) and leaving my CON at 18 or 16. Heck, even Heavy Armor Master might be a better investment, as you only need to take 7 hits over an adventuring day before you've already saved more than 20 HP, which, by the way, doesn't need to be healed back later.

I mean, I could always get both, but even a fighter only gets so many ASIs and there are a number of other feats I'd like to get, while also pushing STR to 20.
Hi!
Your intuition is half right and half wrong.
Half-right in that feats are usually much better than ASIs, as long as you know why you take them of course. :)
Half-wrong in that if you really want to tank first, you should even consider not pushing STR to 20. Not even beyond 16 in fact, IF you think getting a STR-boosting item is fairly possible. :)

For an EK, you have...
- Shield for AC, but does not help with criticals.
- Absorb Elements for elemental damage, which is always better than taking full damage.
But both cost a precious of the few slots you have.

So, you have good CON, you worry about DEX and WIS?
Easy peasy, since you obviously wield a shield as a tank... Don't you?
- WIS: Resilient Wisdom: no need to explain.
- DEX: Shield Master obviously: plain better than boosting DEX once, also gives you a way to completely negate damage as a reaction instead of "quartering" it with Absorb Element on successful save.

Other good candidates.
- Lucky, as told by others: not really reliable, but may still save your hide a few times.
- Heavy Armor Master: indeed good in the long run, but forces you to wield a heavy armor even when you'd rather not to.
- Tough: equivalent to a +2 CON mod. The best investment if you have a Cleric in party (particularly Life).
- Defensive Duelist: it seems redundant with Shield, but it's not really: obviously Shield is much better, but you have a (fairly) limited number of it. This one, although only on one melee attack, is unlimited. And taken after level 12, it's a very good bonus too.

Beyond that, if you don't mind losing capstone for whatever reason and have enough WIS, a single level in Cleric will change your life with Bless.

[MaxWilson]

Don't neglect to consider the possibilities of Dodge combined with either Sentinel or Warcaster (with Booming Blade), each of which acts to discourage enemies from bypassing you in favor of non-Dodging targets.

Also, Prodigy for enhanced grappling/proning can be terrific, especially in a melee-oriented party where everyone will get advantage against whatever you're holding prone.