Should I try to take levels in incantatrix?

[Sword Magess]

Our DM is pretty laissez faire about what we can do. Basically anything that is not homebrew is ok, as long as we can bring him a description of what we are trying to get in print.

The DM is a veteran. We players are all newbies. We just hit level 8.

I am playing a lawful good elan abjurer 3/master abjurer 4, banning enchantment and necromancy. I am thinking about taking incantatrix for the next 3 levels then finishing master specialist. Two questions:

1. How important is the hating extraplanar intrusion onto the material plane part of the incantatrix lore? It does not seem to manifest in the PGtF version of the class, and I am primarily interested in it for metamagic--both for mechanics and from the lore point of view.

2. Does it fit the party? Here is the full party. The ones who are ECL 7 have not declared what classes to take for level 8 yet, though it is probably obvious for most of them.

Neutral good human rogue 7
Neutral good grey elf druid 5/swanmay 3
Chaotic evil human savage bard 5/ur-priest 2
True neutral dragonwrought desert kobold cleric 1/sorcerer 1/focused conjurer 1/mystic theurge 5
True neutral lesser tiefling beguiler 6/shadowcrafter 2

[Cosi]

The "hates extraplanar incursions" bit is basically an excuse for the DM to drop you some plot hooks. IIRC you don't have any obligation to check out dimensional disturbances, but being interested in them gives your DM an opportunity to point you at a Demon Invasion plot if he wants.

Incantatrix should fit fine in your party. You've got a couple of other casters, and they will likely be very appreciative of you adding metamagic like Persistent or Chain to their buff spells, which will likely make your party much more effective.

I would recommend taking the fourth level of Incantatrix. The extra metamagic feat is a good deal, and three metamagic feats (prereq + 2 bonus) works out neatly to Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, and Chain Spell all of which are good tools.

[lbuttitta]

It's pretty much a tacked-on plot hook which fits with the "abjurer" theme.
Yes, you should, provided you're planning on being a primary buffer. Abjurers don't make half-bad buffers, and Persisting buffs happen to be the incantatrix's specialty. Doubly so if your other casters take a buff-oriented approach to their spell selection, since you can Persist their spells too. Alternatively, if you're not going to be a buffer, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is an abjuration-focused prestige class which takes more of a self-protective approach to being an abjurer. I would note that it's known for being OP, but you're considering the incantatrix, so it's fine.

[Sleven]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil [..] it's known for being OP

What?

The veils are subject to SR (as prismatic wall) and can hinder the IotSV's own spellcasting. The IotSV can't force anyone through a warding and there are a multitude of spells and abilities that can entirely negate the class' features, allowing someone to just walk right through. Most of these are easily available by the time the class gets it's most powerful features (level ~15). How is that OP?

Also, Incantatrix is only L33T tier because of Cooperative Metamagic (saving your allies numerous feats) and the fact that it gives you a crapload of bonus feats and an epic feat as its capstone. Metamagic Effect just ain't that good. I can think of ~10 other ways to persist spells "for free" off the top of my head. There's probably more. Double that if you count ways to make spells/day meaningless (and thus refresh buffs at will). The real culprit is Persistent Spell. Even then, most of the defensive spells/effects you care about have a 10 min/level+ duration version. So, meh.

On topic: Yea, it fits the party. Most of them are casters that do something you can't do (without you building/cheesing to crib spells off other lists). Everyone in that party is going to benefit from any metamagic feats you take and share via Cooperative Metamagic (except the rogue, who benefits indirectly anyways).

EDIT: Do note that the Cooperative Metamagic feature can be duplicated by a 9th level spell (that I can't seem to remember the name of right now). Costs you spell slots to apply the metamagic though. There probably won't be much more of your campaign left by the time you hit 17th level anyways...

[Zaq]

What?

The veils are subject to SR (as prismatic wall) and can hinder the IotSV's own spellcasting. The IotSV can't force anyone through a warding and there are a multitude of spells and abilities that can entirely negate the class' features, allowing someone to just walk right through. Most of these are easily available by the time the class gets it's most powerful features (level ~15). How is that OP?


The OP rating mostly comes from the level 4 ability, because blocking line of effect as an immediate action in response to being attacked is one of the strongest "NOPE!" buttons in the game, and it doesn't even cost spell slots (or have any other noticeable downsides, the way things like Celerity do). It even works a noticeable number of times per day. It is extraordinarily hard to damage an Iot7FV who isn't flat-footed, and very few enemies will have the specific counter necessary to break the barrier and restore line of effect before the Initiate gets a turn (and then, you know, the Initiate just Wizards all over the place at them).

[Sleven]

The OP rating mostly comes from the level 4 ability, because blocking line of effect as an immediate action in response to being attacked is one of the strongest "NOPE!" buttons in the game, and it doesn't even cost spell slots (or have any other noticeable downsides, the way things like Celerity do). It even works a noticeable number of times per day. It is extraordinarily hard to damage an Iot7FV who isn't flat-footed, and very few enemies will have the specific counter necessary to break the barrier and restore line of effect before the Initiate gets a turn (and then, you know, the Initiate just Wizards all over the place at them).

I just don't see it. Any competently built caster is going to be able to block LoE as an immediate action without having to waste 3 feats. LoE is only blocked by the appropriate veil(s) that corresponds to the spell's effect anyways. Otherwise it's just concealment. I will agree that having an extra 4/day resource to do that with is good. Is it 3 feats good? Eh. The first person to have to use an immediate action typically loses (or loses a contingency) anyways.

The best way to fight an IotSV isn't at range and it definitely isn't wasting spells that "counter" the wardings. Using spells that let you straight up ignore the veils and walk right through to judiciously apply whatever spell you want is the way to go. Is it really that uncommon for a caster to have memorized things like spell resistance or shapechange? I don't think so.

Anyways, if they pop something like the indigo veil, they certainly won't be wizarding at you until they drop the thing.

EDIT: Completely forgot that by some readings Reactive Warding can't even get you to waste a spell, since under such a reading they would have to put it up before you cast the thing. Not that I particularly prescribe to such a reading. Just mentioning that it's out there.

EDIT2: A strict reading wouldn't even let them put it up in response to a Silent and Still spell since they wouldn't know you were casting until the action was "complete".

[Sword Magess]

Interesting to know about the incantatrix not being compelled to hate the other planes. One particular use that worries me is this: I plan to pick up Planar Touchstone and use the Catalogues of Enlightenment to get the Inquisition domain power for +4 to dispel checks. This is related to why I am taking master abjurer. How well does that work with the incantatrix lore?


Yes, you should, provided you're planning on being a primary buffer. Abjurers don't make half-bad buffers, and Persisting buffs happen to be the incantatrix's specialty. Doubly so if your other casters take a buff-oriented approach to their spell selection, since you can Persist their spells too.
Yes, I play this character as a buffer. I also spend a decent amount of time during combat dispelling or staring across an enemy caster to counterspell, hence the investment into master abjurer. It is not a particularly dynamic character once we are in combat--the beguiler and the focused conjurer do most of the offensive casting.


I just don't see it. Any competently built caster is going to be able to block LoE as an immediate action without having to waste 3 feats.
That is less of a concern here, as I used Spell Focus (Abjuration) to qualify for master abjurer and got Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration) and Skill Focus (Spellcraft) from master abjurer. But I prefer the metamagic tricks of the incantatrix overall.

I am thinking of picking up Heighten Spell to help the beguiler use more powerful silent image evocations/summons. Good idea? Bad idea?

[sleepyphoenixx]

The best way to fight an IotSV isn't at range and it definitely isn't wasting spells that "counter" the wardings. Using spells that let you straight up ignore the veils and walk right through to judiciously apply whatever spell you want is the way to go. Is it really that uncommon for a caster to have memorized things like spell resistance or shapechange? I don't think so.
Keep in mind that D&D is mostly PvE, not PvP. And unless you're fighting enemies with class levels most monsters simply don't have the options to counter the veils unless the DM purposely builds them for that.
Which not only becomes really obvious and heavy-handed if you do it too often, it'll also tie up build resources that could've been used for other things.
The IotSV is still a full wizard after all, so he'll definitely be able to take advantage of that.

Then comes the fact that most monsters who even have casting cast as sorcerers, with the resulting limit on spells known.
They may have Shapechange (if you customize their spells known), but they'll rarely have Spell Resistance as a spell known.
Really, the only ones you can expect to are other T1 casters. Everyone else is screwed.

From that perspective the veils are very powerful. I wouldn't call them gamebreaking, but it's a very solid set of class abilities. And one that you don't lose caster progression for.

Also keep in mind that a Master Specialist/IotSV is really good at dispelling (especially dispelling abjurations like Spell Resistance) and counterspelling, so buffs will probably help less than you hope.
They're certainly not absolute defenses like you're portraying them.


EDIT2: A strict reading wouldn't even let them put it up in response to a Silent and Still spell since they wouldn't know you were casting until the action was "complete".
That's what Battlemagic Perception, Spellcaster's Bane and the Ring of Spell-Battle are for.