Magic Initiate on an EK: Bless or Shield of Faith

[Greywander]

One guide I was reading for Eldritch Knights brought up using Magic Initiate to get Shield of Faith to make yourself even tankier. And an EK with Warcaster is unlikely to lose concentration even if they do get hit, which makes this combo work well. But I'm considering if Bless is a better option.

Shield of Faith

The thing about AC is that it tends to give increasing returns: the more you have the better each additional point becomes. When an enemy hits you on an 11, +1 AC means you take 10% fewer hits. When they need a 19 to hit, +1 AC means you take 50% fewer hits. And EKs can have a lot of AC: plate + shield + Defense fighting style = 21 AC. The Shield spell gives you an extra +5 AC when you really need it, for a total of 26. Stacking Shield of Faith on top of that gives you an impressive 23 AC without Shield and 28 AC with Shield. This only gets even more bonkers when you start throwing +X armor and shields into the mix, or other magic items that boost AC. With a Sword of Defense, armor +3, shield +3, ring and cloak of protection, you can stack up to +11 AC, for a total of 34 AC without Shield and 39 AC with Shield. Yes, you can make the Tarrasque require a crit to hit you.

Bless

If Shield of Faith makes you better at something you're already good at, Bless helps shore up areas where you're a little weaker. One aspect of martials is an over-reliance on attack rolls; anything with good AC can severely hamper a martial's effectiveness, while a caster will just switch to save-based spells. The bonus to attack rolls helps mitigate this by increasing the AC you can reliably hit. This also results in higher DPR due to hitting more often, and plays equally nicely with the fighter's many attacks or with BB/GFB. Bless also helps you in another area you're weak: saving throws. Sure, you might have amazing AC, but that won't help against a Fireball, or Hold Person, or Dominate. The final benefit of Bless over Shield of Faith is that you can share both these effects with two friends, making you a better team player and potentially freeing up the cleric's concentration slot for something else.

Hex is an honorable mention, but I don't think it's as good as Bless.

Which would you take?

[McSkrag]

One guide I was reading for Eldritch Knights brought up using Magic Initiate to get Shield of Faith to make yourself even tankier. And an EK with Warcaster is unlikely to lose concentration even if they do get hit, which makes this combo work well. But I'm considering if Bless is a better option.

Shield of Faith

The thing about AC is that it tends to give increasing returns: the more you have the better each additional point becomes. When an enemy hits you on an 11, +1 AC means you take 10% fewer hits. When they need a 19 to hit, +1 AC means you take 50% fewer hits. And EKs can have a lot of AC: plate + shield + Defense fighting style = 21 AC. The Shield spell gives you an extra +5 AC when you really need it, for a total of 26. Stacking Shield of Faith on top of that gives you an impressive 23 AC without Shield and 28 AC with Shield. This only gets even more bonkers when you start throwing +X armor and shields into the mix, or other magic items that boost AC. With a Sword of Defense, armor +3, shield +3, ring and cloak of protection, you can stack up to +11 AC, for a total of 34 AC without Shield and 39 AC with Shield. Yes, you can make the Tarrasque require a crit to hit you.

Bless

If Shield of Faith makes you better at something you're already good at, Bless helps shore up areas where you're a little weaker. One aspect of martials is an over-reliance on attack rolls; anything with good AC can severely hamper a martial's effectiveness, while a caster will just switch to save-based spells. The bonus to attack rolls helps mitigate this by increasing the AC you can reliably hit. This also results in higher DPR due to hitting more often, and plays equally nicely with the fighter's many attacks or with BB/GFB. Bless also helps you in another area you're weak: saving throws. Sure, you might have amazing AC, but that won't help against a Fireball, or Hold Person, or Dominate. The final benefit of Bless over Shield of Faith is that you can share both these effects with two friends, making you a better team player and potentially freeing up the cleric's concentration slot for something else.

Hex is an honorable mention, but I don't think it's as good as Bless.

Which would you take?

Both are good, but I think the answer it depends on what role you need to play in the party.

If you a front line tank, then our job is to tie up the enemy and remain standing. So having +2 AC from Shield of Faith for defense is the call.

If you have already have a tank or two and are more of a flanker using a 2-hander + GWM then Bless is the call since it will improve your team's offense.

[Snowbluff]

Bless is just better. If bless affected only 1 person, it would be a more fair comparison.

[TheBirba]

Bless is just better. If bless affected only 1 person, it would be a more fair comparison.

This.

Simply put, Bless is arguably the best lvl1 spell in the game in most situations.

[sambojin]

The main question is, do you have Find Familiar from your normal spells? If you don't, get that from MI. It helps you do combat as well as other stuff.

If you do, grab Bless (and guidance and something else). It does attack and save-defense, while guidance helps with skills.

[ad_hoc]

The thing about AC is that it tends to give increasing returns:

Unless nothing attacks you. Then it is a bunch of wasted resources which could have been used to contribute to the fight. It is more important for the party to have a high floor rather than a high ceiling.

Being the last character standing will still result in a TPK.

[Beechgnome]

I would take Bless too. If you decide later you still want a low-level tanky concentration spell for yourself, Protection from Evil/Good will help you with undead, fiends, elementals by imposing disadvantage, which can be better than the +2. Plus you can use your EK slots for it instead of just the once a day from MI.

[Greywander]

Bless is just better. If bless affected only 1 person, it would be a more fair comparison.
We actually had something like this come up in-game. We had arranged a duel between two NPCs (one friendly to us, one not), and I had to decide between putting Bless or Shield of Faith on the friendly NPC before the duel. I went with Shield of Faith in that instance, but that was mostly because we had some shenanigans going that would allow us to heal the friendly NPC slightly every turn (with a risk of getting caught). Bless would have increased her offense, but she was heavily outclassed by her opponent. Because of the continuous healing, it was actually to our advantage to drag the fight out and whittle away at the superior foe's larger HP pool. I think we made the right choice in that specific instance, but that wasn't exactly a typical fight.


Unless nothing attacks you. Then it is a bunch of wasted resources which could have been used to contribute to the fight. It is more important for the party to have a high floor rather than a high ceiling.

Being the last character standing will still result in a TPK.
This is a good point. When I'm not getting attacked, Shield of Faith is entirely wasted, while Bless is always useful (unless, for some reason I'm not able to attack).

Both spells seem pretty good, and might be better in different situations. If I could, I might eschew the cantrips if I could take a second 1st level spell instead and get both.


I would take Bless too. If you decide later you still want a low-level tanky concentration spell for yourself, Protection from Evil/Good will help you with undead, fiends, elementals by imposing disadvantage, which can be better than the +2. Plus you can use your EK slots for it instead of just the once a day from MI.
PfE&G is another good spell for this, and will most likely be on my spell list. Also, I can use spell slots to cast my Magic Initiate spell (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/09/eldritch-knight-with-magic-initiate-feat/), so I can get more than one Bless a day if I need it, but I can get at least one without using up a slot.

[ad_hoc]

This is a good point. When I'm not getting attacked, Shield of Faith is entirely wasted, while Bless is always useful (unless, for some reason I'm not able to attack).

Both spells seem pretty good, and might be better in different situations. If I could, I might eschew the cantrips if I could take a second 1st level spell instead and get both.


I was thinking along the lines of casting it on an ally in need.

It is a Bonus Action while Bless is an Action so it won't slow you down.

[Greywander]

I was thinking along the lines of casting it on an ally in need.

It is a Bonus Action while Bless is an Action so it won't slow you down.
I... I think I really did misunderstand you. It sounds like you're saying that using an Action is better than using a Bonus Action, because an Action doesn't... slow you down? Or wait, maybe you're saying that Shield of Faith uses a bonus action (unlike Bless, which uses an action) so it won't slow you down like Bless will. That makes more sense.

In any case, either spell would be something to cast before the battle starts, but it's a fair point. Shield of Faith also has a longer duration, so it almost certainly won't expire during battle, and might last through two fights if they're back-to-back.

Hmm, there's not any way to get either spell as a racial spell is there? It would be easy to take, say, a teifling and swap out their innate magic, but a DM may not approve of that. Nor would the probably approve of changing the teifling's ability score bonus to +2 STR and +1 CON. I could dip cleric, but that would set my progression back one level and prevent me from getting that fourth attack.

[ad_hoc]

I... I think I really did misunderstand you. It sounds like you're saying that using an Action is better than using a Bonus Action, because an Action doesn't... slow you down? Or wait, maybe you're saying that Shield of Faith uses a bonus action (unlike Bless, which uses an action) so it won't slow you down like Bless will. That makes more sense.

Yeah, that's it.


In any case, either spell would be something to cast before the battle starts, but it's a fair point.

How many opportunities are you getting to cast things before a battle like that?

Or more importantly, how many times do you not get the opportunity? I would think those would be the times when it is needed most.

Both are Concentration too so don't assume they will even last the 1 battle that you are in (though this is a case where the high AC is quite good).

[Arkhios]

One thing in particular I didn't notice having been mentioned about Bless, which makes it even better than you might have initially thought:

Concentration check is a Constitution Saving Throw.

[Greywander]

One thing in particular I didn't notice having been mentioned about Bless, which makes it even better than you might have initially thought:

Concentration check is a Constitution Saving Throw.
I didn't mention this, but I did notice it. But Shield of Faith also helps with this by making you take hits less often. Fewer hits = fewer opportunities to lose concentration. Shield of Faith won't do anything against save-or-take-damage effects, though, while Bless will pull double duty. I'd be curious to see someone run the math on which makes it easier to maintain concentration.

The general consensus seems to be that Bless would be competitive with Shield of Faith even if it only targeted one person. Since Bless targets three people, it gets a lot better. Put it on the rogue and/or GWF user for the greatest effect.


Or more importantly, how many times do you not get the opportunity? I would think those would be the times when it is needed most.
As a melee oriented character, I can probably get away in most fights with casting Bless as I run in to engage. It's definitely a downside that I'd need to spend an action to buff, but the buff really is that good, and the two allies that I give it to can go to town immediately.


Both are Concentration too so don't assume they will even last the 1 battle that you are in (though this is a case where the high AC is quite good).
As a fighter, I'd also be proficient with CON saves. Warcaster gives me advantage on concentration saves. Top this off with at least 16 CON and only the paladin is better at keeping concentration, and only if he gets Warcaster and Resilient (CON).

[ad_hoc]

Warcaster gives me advantage on concentration saves.

Oh I missed that. Yeah, then you shouldn't be failing Con saves.

I think both Bless and Shield of Faith are reasonable options provided you're looking at casting SoF on an ally.

[Greywander]

Well, I'm trying to build a tanky EK, so the intent is to cast Shield of Faith on myself to be a better tank. Of course, there's nothing to stop me from casting it on an ally if I haven't already cast it yet. (Also, according to the Sage Advice Compendium, a spell from Magic Initiate can only be cast using spell slots if its on your spell list. So I could grab a wizard spell and cast it with spell slots, but not a cleric spell.)

Generally, it seems like Shield of Faith would be slightly better if I'm by myself, although it would do nothing against enemies that rely on saves instead of attack rolls.

Bless is better if I have at least two friends that use attack rolls. It's helpful against enemies that use saves, but even without that just the bonus to attack rolls makes it worth it.

[nickl_2000]

I think you will be relatively happy either way, but let me mention a few things for Shield of Faith

1) It lasts up to ten minutes. So, if you are in a dungeon crawl you could potentially get 2-3 encounters out of it.
2) It doesn't have to be cast on you. You can cast it on a squishy or an NPC ally you need to keep alive.

[ad_hoc]

Well, I'm trying to build a tanky EK, so the intent is to cast Shield of Faith on myself to be a better tank.

If your goal is to push an extreme, then sure. It just isn't very helpful in the actual game. All you need is to be the toughest character in the party. It doesn't matter if you have another +2AC when all the other characters are dead.



Generally, it seems like Shield of Faith would be slightly better if I'm by myself, although it would do nothing against enemies that rely on saves instead of attack rolls.

Why are you by yourself? And how are you and the party not dead?

[Deathtongue]

If your goal is to push an extreme, then sure. It just isn't very helpful in the actual game. All you need is to be the toughest character in the party. It doesn't matter if you have another +2AC when all the other characters are dead.I disagree with this philosophy. Being the only surviving member in a party is often literally the difference between having to come up with a story on how you retrieved the bodies/went back to town for help and canning the adventure. Now, Shield of Faith won't really make the difference, since it's just 1 minute, but I have had situations where I was the only person who survived the TPK because I had a spare Dimension Door / Fly / Invisibility up my sleeve.

Agree with the conclusion, not with the underlying sentiment.

[ad_hoc]

I disagree with this philosophy. Being the only surviving member in a party is often literally the difference between having to come up with a story on how you retrieved the bodies/went back to town for help and canning the adventure. Now, Shield of Faith won't really make the difference, since it's just 1 minute, but I have had situations where I was the only person who survived the TPK because I had a spare Dimension Door / Fly / Invisibility up my sleeve.

Agree with the conclusion, not with the underlying sentiment.

Not last surviving, last character standing.

Being the last one dead doesn't help.

Death spirals are a thing.

[djreynolds]

Remember you get 2 cantrips, resistance is AWESOME. Half of bless basically for you... all day long... almost.

Grab bless, though, best spell in the game pound for pound.

SOF, is nice but when the giant keeps missing you... he will turn to someone else.

[GoodmanDL]

Keep in mind that you will only get them through Magic Initiate, you will only be able to use Bless or Shield of Faith once per day. You can only cast spells gained this way (or with racial abilities) using your spell slots if the spell is already on your class list.

Neither of these are Wizard spells.

[JackPhoenix]

Also, I can use spell slots to cast my Magic Initiate spell (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/09/eldritch-knight-with-magic-initiate-feat/), so I can get more than one Bless a day if I need it, but I can get at least one without using up a slot.

Only if the you take MI for your class, or, in the EK's case, for the class that shares your spell list, i.e. wizard. Wizards don't have access to Bless.

[MrStabby]

Both are good, I think bless is better.

If you are pulling from the cleric list I would also suggest healing word. The ability to stabilise someone and pull them back into the fight is huge. You probably don't want it more than once per day but it is a big swing. This is especially true if the person coming back can turn the fight round. I think it is not just better, but also more fun as it let's your character do more things and is active rather than passive.

[PwrHngryTortois]

Remember you get 2 cantrips, resistance is AWESOME. Half of bless basically for you... all day long... almost.

Grab bless, though, best spell in the game pound for pound.

SOF, is nice but when the giant keeps missing you... he will turn to someone else.

Resistance is pretty terrible IMO, doesn't last long, takes your action to cast each time, eats up your concentration too. I can't think of an in combat situation where it even passes as okay, and out of combat I prefer guidance as you make way more ability checks than saving throws.

[Ventruenox]

Mödley Crüe: The undead are supposed to be out seeking candy tonight, not coming back as old threads.