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D&DChick
2007-09-14, 08:33 AM
I am still fairly new to D&D and need some advice that I can go to my other players with. I am playing in a campaign where currently the throne has been taken over by my characters family. My adventuring group in trying to take back the thrown so I am really with what is now the "rebels". I am think of having my character change loyalty away from the group and back to the family. Does anyone have any advice on how to do such a thing (without being caught by the group).

Thanks! (Hope I made that clear enough).

Runolfr
2007-09-14, 08:37 AM
That actually sounds extremely disruptive to the game. How is your party of players supposed to function if one of you is not cooperating with the others?

You need to either convince the entire party to change sides, or you need to let them convince you to stay on the rebellious side. That, or you can agree to all be mercenaries and play both sides of the conflict, depending on who's paying you the most at the time.

Do not create a situation in which you are trying to foil the party's plans from within the party.

mostlyharmful
2007-09-14, 08:40 AM
Simple, just tell the DM what you're doing and say that when you get down time or are on watch alone you report back to your "handler" int he family, either by messenger or prearranged blind drop points. With prior warning of whatever the party does your fellow schemers should be unstoppable.

BCOVertigo
2007-09-14, 08:41 AM
I am still fairly new to D&D and need some advice that I can go to my other players with. I am playing in a campaign where currently the throne has been taken over by my characters family. My adventuring group in trying to take back the thrown so I am really with what is now the "rebels". I am think of having my character change loyalty away from the group and back to the family. Does anyone have any advice on how to do such a thing (without being caught by the group).

Thanks! (Hope I made that clear enough).

I would probably talk to the DM first to get the OK.

As for how to play it, I suppose that depends on the character. If your character is the type for subterfuge I would go with than angle 'cause it can be very fun if done properly. However you might get more shock value out of being loyal to the party until the 'boss fight' where you dramatically swap sides, provoking many onoes. Maybe both.

The only angle I would refrain from is having your character directly oppose the group, whether through assassination in their sleep or a straight fight, as it will either get you killed(boring for you) or kill the campaign prematurely(boring for everyone).

Edit:

That actually sounds extremely disruptive to the game. How is your party of players supposed to function if one of you is not cooperating with the others?

You need to either convince the entire party to change sides, or you need to let them convince you to stay on the rebellious side. That, or you can agree to all be mercenaries and play both sides of the conflict, depending on who's paying you the most at the time.

Do not create a situation in which you are trying to foil the party's plans from within the party.

If she works with the DM and he sets it up properly, this would be an opportunity for some excellent character development. Also it might force the other characters to really look at the reasons they are against this ruling family and judge if it's worth killing their friend to get what they want instead of just sticking together 'cause the plot calls for it. Worst case the party dies and the campaign is ended in dramatic fashion(I hope it's been going for awhile cause some might feel shortchanged), best case the DM makes a memorable session or two out of the situation and possibly pulls an unforeseen plot twist and everyone has fun.

Green Bean
2007-09-14, 08:41 AM
Yeah, turning against the party is almost never a good idea. Heck, even if you don't actively betray them and just sneak off, what then? Either the DM is forced to write a separate, simultaneous storyline for you (unlikely), or you'll just be asked to roll up a new rebel character (what will likely happen).

Dausuul
2007-09-14, 08:45 AM
That actually sounds extremely disruptive to the game. How is your party of players supposed to function if one of you is not cooperating with the others?

You need to either convince the entire party to change sides, or you need to let them convince you to stay on the rebellious side. That, or you can agree to all be mercenaries and play both sides of the conflict, depending on who's paying you the most at the time.

Do not create a situation in which you are trying to foil the party's plans from within the party.

I'll second (third, fourth--bloody ninjas) that turning on your own party is generally bad. When I'm DMing, my attitude is that anyone who backstabs the party has just volunteered to play a villain for me. And the role of villains is to be found out and killed by the heroic PCs, preferably in a dramatic fashion and at a suitably dramatic moment. If the backstabbing player is okay with that, great, but I'm certainly not going to cooperate with one player ruining everyone else's day.

That said, the way to do this is to take your DM aside, ideally at some time other than during regular gameplay (both to avoid slowing down the game and to keep other players from wondering what you're up to), and explain what you're doing and how you're keeping it secret.

D&DChick
2007-09-14, 08:47 AM
I probably should have mentioned that I have discussed this with the DM and he is okay with it. I already know this character will eventually become an NPC and I will re-roll and new "rebel". I am looking to do away with the character anyway and thought this would be an interesting way to do it. I was thinking much along the lines of what BCOVertigo mentioned and waiting for the boss fight and dramatically switching sides.

Dausuul
2007-09-14, 08:53 AM
I probably should have mentioned that I have discussed this with the DM and he is okay with it. I already know this character will eventually become an NPC and I will re-roll and new "rebel". I am looking to do away with the character anyway and thought this would be an interesting way to do it. I was thinking much along the lines of what BCOVertigo mentioned and waiting for the boss fight and dramatically switching sides.

Ahhh, okay. That's a different story. Sorry for the assumptions, but many of us have too much experience of players who stab the rest of the party in the back for their own amusement and then get upset when the rest of the party kills them.

Anyway--for the exact logistics of it, it's not usually too hard to manage. Just come up with a good excuse for your character to go off on his/her own at some point; during this time, make contact with somebody from the ruling family and offer to switch sides. Make arrangements so you can continue to pass messages back and forth in secret, probably at some kind of "dead drop" location. Coordinate with the DM so you're both on the same page about when you plan to do the Big Reveal, and he can plan the boss fight accordingly.

Green Bean
2007-09-14, 08:54 AM
I probably should have mentioned that I have discussed this with the DM and he is okay with it. I already know this character will eventually become an NPC and I will re-roll and new "rebel". I am looking to do away with the character anyway and thought this would be an interesting way to do it. I was thinking much along the lines of what BCOVertigo mentioned and waiting for the boss fight and dramatically switching sides.

Well, if you have to betray the party, that's the way to do it. You should always schedule your betrayals for when your teammates are at the very least prepared for a battle of some sort. "Your companions stare in shock as you move to the side of the BBEG, and begin casting a spell," sounds much better then, "I wait for everyone to be asleep, then I CDG the wizard and the rogue, and Dominate the Fighter."

Funkyodor
2007-09-14, 08:56 AM
Edit: Uh, guess the following is what I get for glossing over the thread and posting what ever I feel like. Didn't get to the parts after.

The fun part would be to play your character as a blind innocent who sends nice letters to other "believed to be" rebelious family members when available letting them know what he's been up to. You know that these letters will let your family possibly foil the PC's plans, but your character could be naive enough to think "No, my Brother is one of us! He would never put me into a situation like that..." Just a thought on how to foil the other players plans but keep your character as an innocent pawn in the whole deal. Draw up a couple of notes pre-game explaining what you want to do if you can't face-to-face with the DM in private. Let him decide how or if this would change the face of the game. But standing up for specific family members while having negative views of the family on a whole could be the right thing to do for your player. I.E. "We are NOT killing my Mother, but my Sister is the spawn of satan and deserves to die!" It would be more group cooperative, and she really could be fiendish.

mostlyharmful
2007-09-14, 09:00 AM
You could also try turning the party rather than turning on the party. A few scrolls of geas or mark of justice, some memory mods and a little blackmail would give the party a whole new style for maybe a few seasons until they broke free. Being led around by your friend-turned-enemy, being enslaved to fight for something you oppose, working out an escape plan and then facing down your turncoat buddy. That would be difficult to pull off in a way that didn't annoy some in the party but worth it in the long run i think, it'd build up no end of dramatic tension without killing off interesting characters too soon. Plus the party then has to sort out their reputations and undo the mess they themselves caused

Runolfr
2007-09-14, 09:09 AM
I probably should have mentioned that I have discussed this with the DM and he is okay with it. I already know this character will eventually become an NPC and I will re-roll and new "rebel". I am looking to do away with the character anyway and thought this would be an interesting way to do it. I was thinking much along the lines of what BCOVertigo mentioned and waiting for the boss fight and dramatically switching sides.

This is more acceptable. I actually had a player offer to be a traitorous plant in the party once. The campaign never got to that point, but it would have been an interesting twist in the plot, with the expectation that the character would either die or become an NPC. The main point being that the "plant" would not be causing an inter-player conflict for multiple sessions leading up to the confrontation.

It might help for you to set up the character you intend to play after the big betrayal, so your DM can have the party meet that character as an NPC; that way it won't be quite so "out of the blue" when she joins the party later.

Point to remember: your other players need to be cool with something like this happening. You don't want to have outside-game issues develop because of this plot twist.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-14, 09:28 AM
Am I the only one who misinterpeted the thread title? :smallwink:

BCOVertigo
2007-09-14, 09:34 AM
Am I the only one who misinterpeted the thread title? :smallwink:

No. :smallbiggrin:

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 09:39 AM
You could also try turning the party rather than turning on the party. A few scrolls of geas or mark of justice, some memory mods and a little blackmail would give the party a whole new style for maybe a few seasons until they broke free. Being led around by your friend-turned-enemy, being enslaved to fight for something you oppose, working out an escape plan and then facing down your turncoat buddy. That would be difficult to pull off in a way that didn't annoy some in the party but worth it in the long run i think, it'd build up no end of dramatic tension without killing off interesting characters too soon. Plus the party then has to sort out their reputations and undo the mess they themselves caused

This is a pretty decent idea, so long as you think the rest of the party and the DM will be cool with it. You can get this done pretty easily over the course of a few days of playing time. If you want concrete advice it would be helpful if we knew what level/class you and the party are.



It might help for you to set up the character you intend to play after the big betrayal, so your DM can have the party meet that character as an NPC; that way it won't be quite so "out of the blue" when she joins the party later.

Point to remember: your other players need to be cool with something like this happening. You don't want to have outside-game issues develop because of this plot twist.


QFT. Make sure with the DM that not only are they ok with it, you both expect the party to be ok with it.

Also, if you want, you can have the new PC join the party as an NPC before the betrayal. That way, when it happens the DM can a) hand just swap sheets with you (I've found usually the DM should be the one attacking the party to avoid out of game annoyance) or b) hand you the NPC's sheet once the battle is over. Make sure when the moment arrives that it is really clear to the party that this was planned with the DM and not just your own wacky idea.

DrummingDM
2007-09-14, 09:40 AM
Yeah...I'm the OP's DM. I asked her to post this here so that she could get some input from someone other than me before she makes her decision to do this, beings as it means ending the character's career as a PC.

I've discussed her character's little betrayal with her pretty thoroughly. The campaign is open-ended enough yet that I sincerely believe I can work this in, make it *really* cool, and not piss off the rest of the players. I have this vision of a dramatic confrontation with one of my LBEG's where the OP steps across the battlefield as guards and soldiers surround the party and the PC's mouths drop open in shock. (And the OP's character hides behind the LBEG and his minions for protection - because I know the party won't debate long before throwing down and lunging at her.) :smallbiggrin:

Renx
2007-09-14, 09:40 AM
If you turn on your party, you deserve to die, horribly. You will be hated IRL by your party members and looked down on by your DM. If you can live with that, by all means.

Read The Black Hands by Kenzer&co publishing if you want to see what it can evolve into.

Citadel
2007-09-14, 09:42 AM
Hmmm, last D&D game I was in I was supposed to have some ring that made me possessed by a demon and turn against the party. So this was set up by the DM. It went horribly. I was a mage at I think level 5. I got away from the party barbarian and was going to steal some staff I needed to resurect the demon from the cleric. I made myself invisble, used the read thoughts spell, stood in the doorway and tried to cast sleep as quietly as a could on the cleric and rogue who were already naturally asleep. I said while doing this that if I detected them waking up using my read thoughts spell I would immediately walk away quietly down the corridor and back to my room. However, I was told that I started loudly chanting waking both characters. Having woken up they immediately realised there was someone chanting in the doorway that they couldn't see. The cleric grabbed their bow and successfully shot me with an arrow (I'm invisible, should be silent and should have moved away from the doorway, they have just woken up). The rogue jumped up with a sword and slashed and the doorway (only luckily missing). The rogue then ran down the corridor and successfully caught me in the next round. Afterwards, I was told that they both had immunity to sleep as racial (half elf) or some sort of feat bonuses. Ridiculous. But apparently by the rules.

So all I'd say is make sure that your DM and other players really are interested in role playing this properly. I think it is important that your DM will give you a break as it is one against several other party members. I think this case was particularly bad decisions made by the DM combined with annoying rules lawyering from the other players. And for what? I was trying to steal an unidentified magic item under the DM's instruction. I wasn't trying to kill another member of the party. I have the feeling the way it turned out was pretty much how the DM intended. Very frustrating.

DrummingDM
2007-09-14, 09:47 AM
If you turn on your party, you deserve to die, horribly. You will be hated IRL by your party members and looked down on by your DM. If you can live with that, by all means. Well, as her DM, I can say that no, she won't be looked down on by me - I see this as an EXCELLENT roleplaying opportunity, and a potentially campaign-defning moment.

As for the other players, I can't speak for them, but I can hazard a guess - we're all adults, all friends, and I see them being shocked, surprised, and GASP - even possibly delighted by this little turn of events.

I don't think the OP would have come to me with this suggestion if she didn't feel it had at least some merit other than "LOOK HOW SHOCKING I CAN BE!" Besides, it means the end of the PC whether she survives her betrayal or not. If she lives, she becomes easily the most hated villian in my game. If she dies, the party gets to stand over her corpse and gloat.

Citadel
2007-09-14, 09:59 AM
Yeah...I'm the OP's DM. I asked her to post this here so that she could get some input from someone other than me before she makes her decision to do this, beings as it means ending the character's career as a PC.

I've discussed her character's little betrayal with her pretty thoroughly. The campaign is open-ended enough yet that I sincerely believe I can work this in, make it *really* cool, and not piss off the rest of the players. I have this vision of a dramatic confrontation with one of my LBEG's where the OP steps across the battlefield as guards and soldiers surround the party and the PC's mouths drop open in shock. (And the OP's character hides behind the LBEG and his minions for protection - because I know the party won't debate long before throwing down and lunging at her.) :smallbiggrin:

My question is are you just going to use her as powerful NPC to use against the players or will it be truely open ended with the genuine possibility of her surviving and other players dying or that she could convince the other players that they are wrong in going against her family or that she could escape?

BCOVertigo
2007-09-14, 10:06 AM
If you turn on your party, you deserve to die, horribly. You will be hated IRL by your party members and looked down on by your DM. If you can live with that, by all means.

Read The Black Hands by Kenzer&co publishing if you want to see what it can evolve into.

It would be totally awesome if people would read the whole thread before slapping their opinion on the table. That's the world I want to one day live in.

DrummingDM
2007-09-14, 10:31 AM
My question is are you just going to use her as powerful NPC to use against the players or will it be truely open ended with the genuine possibility of her surviving and other players dying or that she could convince the other players that they are wrong in going against her family or that she could escape?Whether it's viewed as railroading or not, I wouldn't allow one character's betrayal to result in the deaths of the party. Capture...sure. But has there ever been a prison in the history of fantasy literature and roleplaying that someone couldn't escape from? And it's not like those responsible for the coup are going to want to create martyrs. Any politico worth their salt enprisons their enemies away from public sight. Besides, it's not like the resistance movement wouldn't LOVE to break the PCs out, beings as they're essentially national heroes (all the more reason not to have them put to death, they'd DEFINATELY become martyrs).

If the OP's character dies, she dies. If she lives and escapes, she becomes a reviled NPC villian. If the party gets captured as a result of her actions, the campaign will take a slightly different direction, but it won't end.

The_Werebear
2007-09-14, 10:32 AM
There are generally two ways to lead up to it that let the party know something is going on. First, let them know that you are related to the group they are fighting.

Option One: Openly struggle to decide. Most groups will see this as an opportunity to convince you to stay with them. This can lead to some interesting situations as the party pleads to try and get you to stay with them as you halfheartedly fight your foes. Maybe start only doing subdual damage, no coup de grace, and asking party members to spare the lives of your foes. When you finally do go over to the other side, the party members will be even more distraught, as they had previously been struggling to get you on their side. They might even try to capture you and reeducate you.

Option Two: Swear your loyalty to them loudly and repeatedly. Become bloodthirsty and vicious towards the groups you are fighting, and do everything you can to prove you are absolutely loyal to them. That way, when you finally betray them, the party will be really suprised and hate that character forever.

Dausuul
2007-09-14, 10:34 AM
For bonus points, set up a subplot where the PCs hear there's a traitor selling them out to the bad guys. Frame some poor NPC for it. The party goes in after the NPC, but finds him gone when they get there, with indications that he got wind the PCs were coming for him and fled the country. In reality, of course, the NPC was murdered by the bad guys in collaboration with D&DChick's character, who set up the frame as soon as the PCs learned of the existence of a traitor.

DrummingDM
2007-09-14, 10:45 AM
For bonus points, set up a subplot where the PCs hear there's a traitor selling them out to the bad guys. Frame some poor NPC for it. The party goes in after the NPC, but finds him gone when they get there, with indications that he got wind the PCs were coming for him and fled the country. In reality, of course, the NPC was murdered by the bad guys in collaboration with D&DChick's character, who set up the frame as soon as the PCs learned of the existence of a traitor.Oh, fear not, if D&DChick decides to go through with this, I'm not going to let her just waltz over to the nearest bad guy with the party in tow and say "Hi! I'm on your side, these are the rebels I was supposed to turn into you guys!"

She'll have to work to earn her moment in the sun. Oh yes she will. Oh yes...:smallsmile:

Person_Man
2007-09-14, 10:53 AM
It's generally a very bad idea to do something without your party's knowledge. This is D&D, not a novel. D&D relies on cooperative play to run smoothly. If your characters betray their characters, some may view it as you personally betraying them personally. Arguments will ensure. And even if they don't, it opens the door to their character betraying/killing your character. And they may never trust your future characters again, knowing that you put your personal character goals above theirs.

Driderman
2007-09-14, 12:22 PM
You'd almost think people here took in-game betrayal personally, what with all the "it's the worst of the worst, don't do it!" comments.
Honestly, some of the best games I've played involved mistrust and betrayal between partymembers. Granted, most of us grew up on Vampire: The Masquerade so it's like second nature to us, but my fellow gamers are also quite adept at playing heroic, loyal comrades-in-arms stories as well.

I say, if your betrayal is wellfounded and involves interesting roleplaying, go for it! Most people have the capacity to differentiate between in-game and real life so if it makes for a good story, you will most likely have a surprising and entertaining plot-twist to discuss and laugh about when the story is done.

As for how to do it: Subversion and causing dissent. That's what I'd do. I don't know your reasons for betraying the party, maybe you want power and feel you can get more of it from your usurping family? Anyway, when you do start betraying, you might want to figure out the important contacts of the rebels and sell them out to the baddies. Maybe even see if you can find some to turn as well, there are many powerful tools to subvert the loyalties of people and not every rebel may be a firebrand fanatic.
Misinformation is good too. Fake some documents, set up traps for cells of the rebels, that kind of thing. Have them spend their resources chasing red herrings while your evil masters do what they do best.

DArva
2007-09-14, 07:33 PM
You'd almost think people here took in-game betrayal personally, what with all the "it's the worst of the worst, don't do it!" comments.
Honestly, some of the best games I've played involved mistrust and betrayal between partymembers. Granted, most of us grew up on Vampire: The Masquerade so it's like second nature to us, but my fellow gamers are also quite adept at playing heroic, loyal comrades-in-arms stories as well.



<snip>

I have to agree with Driderman, but then, i too grew up on V:TM, as a ST. The majority of the best plots I ran involved deep player intrigue and infighting, it was one of the major points of the main story arc; most of the characters were there to investigate the prince (Another player), and determine if the cam needed to cleanse the city.

It always saddens me that D&D (and D&D groups mostly) doesn't seem to deal as well with player to player conflicts. Probably why I largely don't play D&D anymore.

By the by, is there anyway to get my username changed slightly? I typo'd when I created my name, it should have been "Darva" instead of "DArva"

Mojo_Rat
2007-09-14, 07:55 PM
If the Characters know the OP's character is a member of the family It seems to me it would make for a great scene if she came to them saying she knew of a secret way into the castle after arranging to set up a trap.

The classic setting where they become surrounded and she steps off to one side and it is obvious she is not being apprehended. In the normal literary sense they often become re-occuring villains after :)

Really as long as everyone is an Adult inter party intrigue can be good if done properly. The fact that the OP plans to change characters makes the whole setup much better also.

Burrito
2007-09-14, 08:44 PM
Have your character "fail" some sort of sneak attempt or something so that the party gets captured. Eveyone gets put into their own single isolated cell in the dungeon.
This will give your character a chance to get over to the other side without the party really seeing it. Then the bad guys come in to question/gloat/bad guy monolog, to the good guys and bam! Your now NPC character can step out and add that final little demoralizing bit.
"Ha ha, how could you Fools believe I would betray my family and give up all this power?!" blah blah blah, yadda yadda.
Anyway, when the PC escape from the dungeon, like they always do, you can have them free the other prisioners, and your new character could be among them, eager to join up and overthrow the evil dictators etc. etc.

happyturtle
2007-09-15, 02:39 PM
You get to the final confrontation. The bad guys have some sort of hostage (someone who is both helpless and important to the rebels) and they offer to exchange the hostage for their family member. The implication is that they will torture and kill the OP for betraying the family. The party refuses, of course, but OP speaks up and says she must save the hostage, that it's the right thing to do, and voluntarily 'sacrifices' herself. Before she goes, she gives someone in the party a teleport scroll to send the hostage to safety. The swap is made. The OP waits until the hostage is teleported away, and THEN the OP turns on the party and orders the bad guys to attack the party.

Very melodramatic and shows that the OP isn't entirely devoid of conscience by letting the hostage escape.

dyslexicfaser
2007-09-15, 03:49 PM
Very melodramatic and shows that the OP isn't entirely devoid of conscience by letting the hostage escape.
Or the scroll teleports the hostage right back into the family's dungeon, depending on how you want to play this. :smallsmile:

Dervag
2007-09-15, 05:05 PM
If you turn on your party, you deserve to die, horribly. You will be hated IRL by your party members and looked down on by your DM. If you can live with that, by all means.

Read The Black Hands by Kenzer&co publishing if you want to see what it can evolve into.It really doesn't have to be like that.

Now, if you play a complete ass who murders the entire party in their sleep for your own amusement, then what you say is likely to be true. But if you're playing a 'rebel' whose rebel sympathies have faded and who's slipping intelligence to the government in secret, then it's entirely possible for the players to be fine with that as long as you're not actively trying to screw up their fun.

That's the real dividing line. Players resent players who disrupt the fun, and not those who do not.

So I guess the only piece of advice I have is to make sure that the PC's betrayal takes place in such a way as to cause minimum disruption of the fun.