PDA

View Full Version : Convincing Wizard BBEG



mostlyharmful
2007-09-14, 09:52 AM
I've run into a problem with wizard BBEGs in the past, just got done running one myself. This applies to almost any full caster, in DnD and most other high magic worlds. Running an enemy with Int through the roof and reality reshaping power that doesn't win against a party of adventurers several levels lower than themselves. With all the tricks and plans that a well played wizard PC has, or CoDzilla, it makes it really hard to give the PCs both a convincing enemy and an encounter that doesn't kill them all within a swift action spell combo.:smallfrown:

So my question is this, How do you run a smart evil magic user of significantly more power than the average PC convincingly without using Dues Ex?

So far my ideas have been:

1. Powerful MacGuffin, party aquires a plot hook power source (predictable)
2. Surprise Round, party has to catch them flatfooted and occupied during abig ritual or something (needs sneakines and planning and some suspention of the normal rules ie. no celerity, timestop or competent guards)
3. Back-up, the party is only part of the side that takes on the BBEG (can get difficult to run and can sideline the PCs)
4. Capture, party isn't killed by BBEG because they're useful (party ends up minions for a while but it seems the most reasonable, this only works the first time)


Anything else anyone can think of? Tactics for smart but incompetant spell-slingers, plot twists, alternate endings that don't involve TPKs?

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 10:00 AM
I've run into a problem with wizard BBEGs in the past, just got done running one myself. This applies to almost any full caster, in DnD and most other high magic worlds. Running an enemy with Int through the roof and reality reshaping power that doesn't win against a party of adventurers several levels lower than themselves. With all the tricks and plans that a well played wizard PC has, or CoDzilla, it makes it really hard to give the PCs both a convincing enemy and an encounter that doesn't kill them all within a swift action spell combo.:smallfrown:

So my question is this, How do you run a smart evil magic user of significantly more power than the average PC convincingly without using Dues Ex?

So far my ideas have been:

1. Powerful MacGuffin, party aquires a plot hook power source (predictable)
2. Surprise Round, party has to catch them flatfooted and occupied during abig ritual or something (needs sneakines and planning and some suspention of the normal rules ie. no celerity, timestop or competent guards)
3. Back-up, the party is only part of the side that takes on the BBEG (can get difficult to run and can sideline the PCs)
4. Capture, party isn't killed by BBEG because they're useful (party ends up minions for a while but it seems the most reasonable, this only works the first time)


Anything else anyone can think of? Tactics for smart but incompetant spell-slingers, plot twists, alternate endings that don't involve TPKs?


I've found going school specialization that chooses to exclude another really powerful school is a good way. I'm particularly fond of BBEG's with nasty enchantment or evocation options. Nothing says 'I will crush your spirit' like a big ol' fireball or dominating the party fighter. Nasty, but at the same time you can avoid some of the 'win button' combonations too.

Also, remember that just because a character has powerful magic and a high int doesn't mean he is wise. Hubris can befall the most powerful of villians. It's a little cliche I'll admit but having the badguy dismiss the party out of hand as no real threat is cliche for a reason.

Finally, as a tweak on the last notion, any really powerful BBEG probably also has other enemies (other parties, other BBEG's) and if the party is signifigantly lower level he may not want to 'waste' his most powerful spells and tricks on them unless they prove to be really dangerous. If Tom the Necromancer spends it all on the party then when Fred the Vile Transmuter comes for his spellbook he's not going to have any good way to defend himself. An alternate version of this is to have the party come on the scene just after Fred and Tom have duked it out and the winner is low on spells.

GeneralTacticus
2007-09-14, 10:08 AM
Is it actually necessary for him to be more powerful than the party? Put him on the same level, and between his minions and nastiness he has available by virtue of being a wizard, he should still be able to give them a hard time.

Just thought I should throw that out there.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 10:13 AM
Is it actually necessary for him to be more powerful than the party? Put him on the same level, and between his minions and nastiness he has available by virtue of being a wizard, he should still be able to give them a hard time.

Just thought I should throw that out there.

Generally speaking, unless you are at really high levels and the party does not also have an arcane spell caster you do need to make the BBEG higher level if he's going to be much of a challenge. The party will ALWAYS go after him first if they can and you want to keep him alive as long as possible.

JackMage666
2007-09-14, 10:30 AM
Make him a Wizard/Swashbuckler Abjurant Champion. He'll be able to defend himself, and cast good spells, with a relatively high CL. If any PCs break the line, he doesn't even have to cast spells all the time, as he can use his +5 Rapier of Evilness to fight off Bob the Fighter. I'm not sure what the exact build is, but I've seen some nice ones.

mostlyharmful
2007-09-14, 10:33 AM
plus if they've just run through a hard dungeon or series of encounters they'll be running low on spells anyway. While making the BBEG an equivilant level works for some groups, the ones with almost all meleers, it wouldn't for the ones I DM as my group loves primary casters, to the point we have to work out beforehand who gets the skill-monkey role.

AKA_Bait: I like the specialization idea, at least with wizards that'd cut down on the automatic cheese.

Saph
2007-09-14, 10:38 AM
If you're DMing well, the BBEG should be at about the same level of optimisation as the party. So you should never have situations where 'BBEG kills party with swift action spell combo'. If he's that optimised, then the PC wizard and cleric should also be that optimised, and have their own swift action spell combos and immediate action defences to counter him (and there are four PCs to one of him). If the PCs aren't optimised, then what are you doing throwing that sort of monstrosity at them in the first place?

That's the real answer. If you want the PCs to beat the BBEG in a straight-up fight, his power has to be determined by theirs. If he's too powerful, drop him a level, de-optimise him until it looks like an even match, or give the PCs extra XP and magic items to compensate.

Besides, who says the BBEG has to be a wizard? I prefer BBEG clerics, myself. They're more dedicated to their cause, and their higher HP, AC, and saves but weaker spells prevent the 'glass cannon' issue.

- Saph

mostlyharmful
2007-09-14, 10:45 AM
the question isn't whether the spellslinger (whatever class you use) is over-powered or over-optimized, it's how do you convincingly portray a caster with good mental stats that's a challenge for the party, how do you make them seem intellegent and experianced without whipping out the optimization of spell selection that will wipe the floor with all the party members who aren't full casters and kill all the full casters that aren't on top form after a series of encounters which whittled down their spells per day and funky options.

Edit: I'm not talking about optimization in terms of PrCs and non-core stuff, or even core related cheese, just intellegent spell selection from a well rested spellcaster.

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-14, 10:50 AM
If the wizard BBEG is reasonable competent he really should be pretty much impossible to kill/capture and should be able to crush the party almost at will.

What I usually do is have the party focus on messing up specific plans of the BBEG. They take on his lieutenants or disrupt his plans in other ways. And half the time they get done with all of that only to find out that they have really been doing what the BBEG wanted all along.

Basically the PC's never can defeat the BBEG in combat and are almost always outsmarted by the BBEG, but the BBEG is dealing with plans all throughout the multiverse, allowing the PC's to mess up his plans in a nation or even on a plane without too much trouble.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 10:59 AM
If the wizard BBEG is reasonable competent he really should be pretty much impossible to kill/capture and should be able to crush the party almost at will.

What I usually do is have the party focus on messing up specific plans of the BBEG. They take on his lieutenants or disrupt his plans in other ways. And half the time they get done with all of that only to find out that they have really been doing what the BBEG wanted all along.

Basically the PC's never can defeat the BBEG in combat and are almost always outsmarted by the BBEG, but the BBEG is dealing with plans all throughout the multiverse, allowing the PC's to mess up his plans in a nation or even on a plane without too much trouble.

Thing is, eventually the PC's will have to take down the actual BBEG. If you make the BBEG nasty enough and don't ever give the party the opportunity to personally rip his vile little head off and... well... the long and short of it is they will be dissatisfied most of the time. Sure, he can escape them myriad times until they fix their tactics but I don't think that he shoud always be uncatchable.

It's not all that tough to take down a highlevel spellcaster really so long as the celerity/timestop cheese is not in effect. Just give the party meat shield a swift activated AMF thing and get him over there via one means or another, have the cleric drop a dimensional anchor on Bob the BBEG and go to town. Will it be rough? Of course, you are fighting the BBEG, but it's not impossible by any means.

Saph
2007-09-14, 11:02 AM
the question isn't whether the spellslinger (whatever class you use) is over-powered or over-optimized, it's how do you convincingly portray a caster with good mental stats that's a challenge for the party, how do you make them seem intellegent and experianced without whipping out the optimization of spell selection that will wipe the floor with all the party members who aren't full casters and kill all the full casters that aren't on top form after a series of encounters which whittled down their spells per day and funky options.

The spellcasters in the party have good mental stats too. That doesn't necessarily translate into combat competence. Just play the BBEG with the same level of optimisation of spell selection that they're using themselves. Alternately, lower the BBEG's level until he's a proper challenge for them.

I know I'm not really giving you the answer you want to hear, but you have to realise that what you're asking for is a bit of a contradiction. You're asking how the party should be able to beat the Legendary Invincible Super Wizard with Ultimate Cosmic Power, ten more character levels than the PCs, every optimisation trick legal in the rules and some that aren't, and precognitive knowledge of everything the PCs will and might do. The answer is: they can't.

But why should the BBEG be this unbeatable supercharacter anyway? There's a reason that people only bring out these supercharacters on Internet message boards - it's because they're boring as hell in actual games. If you want the BBEG to be beatable, adjust his power level so that the PCs can beat him. That's all there is to it.

- Saph

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-14, 11:05 AM
Thing is, eventually the PC's will have to take down the actual BBEG. If you make the BBEG nasty enough and don't ever give the party the opportunity to personally rip his vile little head off and... well... the long and short of it is they will be dissatisfied most of the time. Sure, he can escape them myriad times until they fix their tactics but I don't think that he shoud always be uncatchable.
If the PC's actually want him dead they get a god or more powerful wizard to do it. They don't directly fight and defeat teh BBEG, they frame him for the destruction of a gods church. Or call in a favor from that BBGW who they helped out a few years back.

I
t's not all that tough to take down a highlevel spellcaster really so long as the celerity/timestop cheese is not in effect. Just give the party meat shield a swift activated AMF thing and get him over there via one means or another, have the cleric drop a dimensional anchor on Bob the BBEG and go to town. Will it be rough? Of course, you are fighting the BBEG, but it's not impossible by any means.

Remember, high level wizards are incredibly intelligent by default. And anyone that is a competent BBEG almost always has a reasonable wisdom. Playing a BBEG Wizard to his stats and resources almost guarantees that he can't be caught.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 11:23 AM
Remember, high level wizards are incredibly intelligent by default. And anyone that is a competent BBEG almost always has a reasonable wisdom. Playing a BBEG Wizard to his stats and resources almost guarantees that he can't be caught.

Remember also though, that by the time your PC's are at a level to be a threat they ALSO have that kind of intelegence from one, maybe several, members of the party. You need to balance the 'playing their stats' issue on both sides.

Also, frankly, if the culmination of my campagin was 'hurrah, we have sucessfully ticked really powerful NPC/God Jimmy off at BBEG Phil so lets all grab a tankard and watch the fireworks display' I'd be muttering 'lame' under my breath on the way out the door. That's a personal preference, but I think it's a common desire to have your PC play a larger role in saving the universe than middleman/conartist.

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-14, 11:30 AM
Remember also though, that by the time your PC's are at a level to be a threat they ALSO have that kind of intelegence from one, maybe several, members of the party. You need to balance the 'playing their stats' issue on both sides.

Yes, the PC's may have a high intelligence. But defending against an enemy is a lot easier than attacking. If the BBEG sleeps in a Magnificent Mansion then he can't be attacked while asleep. If he travels around by using teleportation then he can't be hit while traveling. If he keeps a mind blank up than he is immune to scrying, detection, and mind control/reading. If he uses a permanent Telepathic Bond to give orders to his chief lieutenants than his communications can't be faked or intercepted.

Saph
2007-09-14, 11:39 AM
Yes, the PC's may have a high intelligence. But defending against an enemy is a lot easier than attacking. If the BBEG sleeps in a Magnificent Mansion then he can't be attacked while asleep. If he travels around by using teleportation then he can't be hit while traveling. If he keeps a mind blank up than he is immune to scrying, detection, and mind control/reading. If he uses a permanent Telepathic Bond to give orders to his chief lieutenants than his communications can't be faked or intercepted.

So do you advise the PC spellcasters to do all these things too? Do you give them lists of the most effective spells and spell combos that are going to work best on the specific enemies they face? Do you point out specific spells from splatbooks for them to take, and advise them on how to use them in combat, based on how high their Intelligence is?

Generally a PC's mental scores aren't going to match the way they're played, so I don't see any reason to care all THAT much if an NPC's mental scores don't match how they're played either. It's generally much simpler and more fun just to match NPC optimisation to that of the PCs.

- Saph

Nerd-o-rama
2007-09-14, 11:41 AM
The fact is simply that most players will be dissatisfied if they never get a chance to at least try to face down the Big Bad. Unless the true Big Bad is some kind of nigh-invulnerable cosmic power like Asmodeus or something. Even then, give them enough epic levels and they will want to try.

It's quite feasible that the BBEG needs to leave himself vulnerable at the climax of his plan: for example, personally partaking in an hours-long sacrificial ritual in order to ascend to godhood/end the world/etc. That leaves him open for combat, and if he runs away, his plan will be ruined. He'll want to stick around and obliterate the PCs so he can continue on. "After all," thinks the typical evil mastermind, "they're hardly a threat to my ultimate arcane prowess."

Fighting a wizard is still a bastard even after you've cornered him, of course, but with good strategy and your own spellcasters to counter his magic (and I don't mean counterspelling, I mean removing his buffs/debuffs, limiting his movement, etc.) it's feasible.

Long story short, let the plot pin the bad guy down for you if that's what you're worried about. Wizards are killable by PCs with enough work, if they can be caught and prevented from running away.

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-14, 11:45 AM
So do you advise the PC spellcasters to do all these things too? Do you give them lists of the most effective spells and spell combos that are going to work best on the specific enemies they face? Do you point out specific spells from splatbooks for them to take, and advise them on how to use them in combat, based on how high their Intelligence is?

Generally a PC's mental scores aren't going to match the way they're played, so I don't see any reason to care all THAT much if an NPC's mental scores don't match how they're played either. It's generally much simpler and more fun just to match NPC optimisation to that of the PCs.

- Saph

My RL PC's already know how to make an untouchable wizard. We take turns playing as the BBEG against the party fairly often. There was that one campaign where the sole objective was to assassinate a level 20 wizard king without being a full caster. The party went from level 3 to level 20 and took 38 ingame years of pretty much continuous work to do it, and in the process all but 1 of them died.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 11:47 AM
Yes, the PC's may have a high intelligence. But defending against an enemy is a lot easier than attacking. If the BBEG sleeps in a Magnificent Mansion then he can't be attacked while asleep. If he travels around by using teleportation then he can't be hit while traveling. If he keeps a mind blank up than he is immune to scrying, detection, and mind control/reading. If he uses a permanent Telepathic Bond to give orders to his chief lieutenants than his communications can't be faked or intercepted.

First, your BBEG is always going to be on the defensive. He has goals he want's accoplished too and sometimes, especially if the PC's have been foiling his plans, he may just decide to get the job done himself. Not much of a scary BBEG if once you get some of his minions he just decides to abandon his evil plans, run and hide. If he has plans there are going to be things only he can do (I'm not going to trust the details of the 'ascent into godhood' spell to one of my minions to perform when I'm not there. Look what happened to that Vecna chap). That means the PC's can wait and ambush him someplace that eventually, for his evil scheme to work, he will have to show up.

Second, if the PC's know he sleeps in a Mage's Mansion then they can dispell it in the night to get at him. If he uses a permanent telepathic bond they can snatch his lieutenants the get info, or use as a hostage to draw him out. They can get info via mundane means. They can scry on his top minions and read their thoughts to lie in wait for him when he shows up to give them things they might need to complete a mission or to get the spoils of a sucessful mission from them.

Third, if he is doing those things he is burning other spell slots every day. How many teleports and greater teleports is he going to prepare every day so he can flit around all the time? Unless we are talking about an epic or close to epic caster, by playing it totally safe he is handicapping his ability to pursue his plans.

If the BBEG is so scared of the PC's that he never has any fun, like Wracking that Paladin of Pelor outside the temple, and abandons his plans then the PC's have basically already won without lifting a finger.

Saph
2007-09-14, 11:53 AM
My RL PC's already know how to make an untouchable wizard. We take turns playing as the BBEG against the party fairly often. There was that one campaign where the sole objective was to assassinate a level 20 wizard king without being a full caster. The party went from level 3 to level 20 and took 38 ingame years of pretty much continuous work to do it, and in the process all but 1 of them died.

That's great, but most people neither know how to make an untouchable character nor particularly care. Unless you happen to be playing with a group of people who make unkillable combat monster characters, and expect the BBEG to be one too, there's no reason to make him one. The BBEG serves the plot, not vice versa. His job is not to be an exercise in character optimisation, his job is to get beaten by the PCs in as entertaining a fashion as possible. If your BBEG annihilates the PCs in the final battle with no risk to himself, that means you've designed him badly.

- Saph

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-14, 12:12 PM
First, your BBEG is always going to be on the defensive. He has goals he want's accoplished too and sometimes, especially if the PC's have been foiling his plans, he may just decide to get the job done himself. Not much of a scary BBEG if once you get some of his minions he just decides to abandon his evil plans, run and hide. If he has plans there are going to be things only he can do (I'm not going to trust the details of the 'ascent into godhood' spell to one of my minions to perform when I'm not there. Look what happened to that Vecna chap). That means the PC's can wait and ambush him someplace that eventually, for his evil scheme to work, he will have to show up.
Yes, but if the BBEG is going to do something that only he can do then its highly unlikely that he is going to let anyone know he is doing it. As for always being on the defensive, those are just standard protections to protect him from all of the various people who want him dead.


Second, if the PC's know he sleeps in a Mage's Mansion then they can dispell it in the night to get at him. If he uses a permanent telepathic bond they can snatch his lieutenants the get info, or use as a hostage to draw him out. They can get info via mundane means. They can scry on his top minions and read their thoughts to lie in wait for him when he shows up to give them things they might need to complete a mission or to get the spoils of a sucessful mission from them.
The PC's would have to find the MMM first. The BBEG knows when one of his lieutenants have been grabbed (that nice bond). And guaranteeing loyalty, even in the face of torture is doable with magic. Make sure your lieutenants have suicide pills as well, true resurrections are a lot cheaper than a captured lieutenant. Permanent mindblank costs 120,000 GP (third eye conceal). Well worth the cost for a lieutenant or 2.


Third, if he is doing those things he is burning other spell slots every day. How many teleports and greater teleports is he going to prepare every day so he can flit around all the time? Unless we are talking about an epic or close to epic caster, by playing it totally safe he is handicapping his ability to pursue his plans.
It's not that many spell slots needed. And its better to have a plan messed up and live to try another one than to die without the possibility of being resurrected.


If the BBEG is so scared of the PC's that he never has any fun, like Wracking that Paladin of Pelor outside the temple, and abandons his plans then the PC's have basically already won without lifting a finger.
If the BBEW is foolish enough to actually whack the Paladin outside of a temple in person than he deserves to have the PC's beat him.


The plot can call for the BBEG to die and it can even give ways for this to be doable. But that isn't what the OP really wanted. He wants a way for PC's to take on the BBEW and kill him without Deus EX. That really isn't possible if the wizard is played to its abilities.

Kaelik
2007-09-14, 12:14 PM
One thing I like to do, and this was mentioned a bit in Specialization, is I like to build BBEGs with themes. And then use the theme to justify poor optimization choices. Maybe he won't deal with certain spells, maybe he has prohibited X school. Maybe he took a PrC that has some nice abilities that fit him and are fun to play against, but are less then optimal and maybe even loses caster levels. (Blaster Elemental Savants work for this, already blasting=inferior choice, plus losing caster levels.)

Then there are reasons that he himself would not do certain things. This has been mentioned as plot control. Maybe he is in hiding in the kings court (im in ur court, dominatin ur king!) and can't Magnificent Mansion himself. Maybe he is pretending to not even be a spell caster, and so sometimes he travels without teleport. Sure he may have a contingency, but I know lots of Wizard PCs with contingency teleports that are not activated by a cleric appearing out of no where and casting Dimensional Anchor. And who cares if the next action triggers the teleport at that point?

Kaelik
2007-09-14, 12:22 PM
It's not that many spell slots needed. And its better to have a plan messed up and live to try another one than to die without the possibility of being resurrected.

Unless you have to wait another 400 years for the situation to be right to ascend into Godhood. Maybe at that point it might be worth trying to beat down some lower level then you adventurers.


If the BBEW is foolish enough to actually whack the Paladin outside of a temple in person than he deserves to have the PC's beat him.

That's right! The BBEG is not supposed to be a supercharacter! He is supposed to have flaws of some kind, just like everyone else. Int 40 Wis 30 doesn't mean that he can't be impatient or for God's sake overly cruel. If he can do it and get away with it (He thinks his contingency is good enough for anything. It's the PCs job to figure out what it isn't good for and exploit that.) then he should.


The plot can call for the BBEG to die and it can even give ways for this to be doable. But that isn't what the OP really wanted. He wants a way for PC's to take on the BBEW and kill him without Deus EX. That really isn't possible if the wizard is played to its abilities.

No, that's easily possible if the Wizard is played as a person. Rather then a collection of high numbers. I don't care how smart or wise you are. There must be something in the universe you care about or you would have ended it all by now. As such there is something other then himself which he wants, which he strives for, that the PCs can affect and exploit him with.

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-14, 12:30 PM
Unless you have to wait another 400 years for the situation to be right to ascend into Godhood. Maybe at that point it might be worth trying to beat down some lower level then you adventurers.
Sure. But I would also have contingencies encase I fail. A clone ready, a cleric who will true res me if I fall, etc. Just because you manage to kill the BBEW doesn't mean he is gone.


That's right! The BBEG is not supposed to be a supercharacter! He is supposed to have flaws of some kind, just like everyone else. Int 40 Wis 30 doesn't mean that he can't be impatient or for God's sake overly cruel. If he can do it and get away with it (He thinks his contingency is good enough for anything. It's the PCs job to figure out what it isn't good for and exploit that.) then he should.
Perhaps this BBEG realizes that if his plan succeeds he gets to kill a thousand paladins. It is hard to believe that a BBEG ever became a BBEG if he can't delay gratification a bit.

You are also committing the fallacy of assuming that all BBEG's are sadistic monsters. Perhaps this one just wants to take over tech world and has no qualms about how he does it. He will start wars, kill babies, and kick puppies if he has to but he doesn't kill paladins just for fun.


No, that's easily possible if the Wizard is played as a person. Rather then a collection of high numbers. I don't care how smart or wise you are. There must be something in the universe you care about or you would have ended it all by now. As such there is something other then himself which he wants, which he strives for, that the PCs can affect and exploit him with.

BBEG's tend to have a goal. This is the thing they want more than anything else and are doing all these evil things to get. Exploiting this is what the whole campaign is about.

The_Werebear
2007-09-14, 12:35 PM
If the BBEW is foolish enough to actually whack the Paladin outside of a temple in person than he deserves to have the PC's beat him.

That, actually, is the point here. You can't play a BBEW to the best of his abilities or the party will never find him or beat him, and that's just not very fun.

I for one, am in favor of exactly what is mentioned above. This BBEW is going to take some precautions, yes, but it is still human.. Or elven, or dwarven, or whatever. They will have desires that are plain stupid. They can allow pride to get in the way of their plans. They will be lazy at times.

One of the best times my party ever had involved taking on a high level wizard foe. They had previously sneaked into her lair and tampered with the spell she was preparing. The wizard was so eager to use it to devastate the party's kingdom that she didn't fully check the spell and missed the flaw that had been inserted. In the middle of the casting (it was a long spell) the party appeared and faked an attack on her, pressing her guards. She sped up the casting to compensate so she could join the battle, stumbled over the error they had inserted, and misfired the spell, essentially destroying her own army through the error. The party had a great time with that.

Kaelik
2007-09-14, 12:44 PM
You are also committing the fallacy of assuming that all BBEG's are sadistic monsters. Perhaps this one just wants to take over tech world and has no qualms about how he does it. He will start wars, kill babies, and kick puppies if he has to but he doesn't kill paladins just for fun.

Actually I was just giving one example of the many different ways that a good DM could play a BBEG in such a way that the game can be fun.

tainsouvra
2007-09-14, 12:45 PM
So my question is this, How do you run a smart evil magic user of significantly more power than the average PC convincingly without using Dues Ex? In short, I don't. A little smarter than the players is ok, hundreds of IQ points isn't.

As a long explanation, it depends on the level of intelligence we're talking about...if we're talking Intelligence 30+ full spellcasters, you pretty much can't put them as something the party should fight without absurd levels of deus ex machina. Someone who can reshape reality to his liking and has the intellect to make the smartest man on Earth look like a complete moron simply shouldn't be caught off guard by the players' tactics, and full spellcasters with plenty of time to prepare really just aren't killable under normal circumstances.

Note that I refer to the players, no their characters. Although the party's wizard might have a 30 intelligence himself, there is no way in hell the player does--he'd be lucky to squeeze out a 16, realistically speaking. Likewise, the DM isn't smart enough to accurately portray such a staggering intellect without heavy metagaming. The tactics of an intelligence 30 creature are literally beyond the understanding of any of us, and our best plans are a joke to them.

Creatures of absurdly high intelligence make good background characters, not good direct opponents for the party. The way I deal with that problem is by simply not introducing it--NPC wizards don't need to be any higher than 19 intelligence to be able to toss out any nasty combo under the sun, so the foes that the players actually face generally don't go into the 20+ range.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 01:18 PM
Yes, but if the BBEG is going to do something that only he can do then its highly unlikely that he is going to let anyone know he is doing it. As for always being on the defensive, those are just standard protections to protect him from all of the various people who want him dead.


Only if he plans on not using any of his minions for the planning and early stages. Even if he doesn't tell his minions exactly what he is doing, if the BBEG found out what he needed to do to accomplish it the PC's can do the same thing.


The PC's would have to find the MMM first. The BBEG knows when one of his lieutenants have been grabbed (that nice bond). And guaranteeing loyalty, even in the face of torture is doable with magic. Make sure your lieutenants have suicide pills as well, true resurrections are a lot cheaper than a captured lieutenant. Permanent mindblank costs 120,000 GP (third eye conceal). Well worth the cost for a lieutenant or 2.


Humm... let's see, I'm not sure where you are getting a Permanent mindblak from (as it's not listed under things you can make Permanent) but even if you can and are referring to an expensive magical item there, that's 360,000 gp for himself and two liutenants (who have minions of their own that aren't mindblanked). That's nearly half of his net worth as a 20th level character. That's assuming he hasn't spent it on things, like scrolls to learn more spells, other magical items for himself (boccob's blessed book anyone? Copies of his spell book so if something happens he's not a really smart commoner?) and his minions, components for his evil plans, bribes to keep locals from ratting him out (which is better than threats) etc. All those things being the case, it just adds an extra step to get to the Liutenants through their lower level minions.

Additionally, if the minions have been mindblanked, every time one of them gets killed (say via poison tooth) it's another 120,000 gp down the tubes. Plus the 1,000 to bring them back, if he does. That's going to really get expensive after a few minions. If he can even afford it after a few minions. BBEG isn't going to get annoyed with that and take matters into his own hands?



It's not that many spell slots needed. And its better to have a plan messed up and live to try another one than to die without the possibility of being resurrected.


Those are just the slots needed for his being safe. It's at least 3 or 4 slots used, one at eighth level. That's not chump change when going up against other casters who have access to similar level spells.


Sure. But I would also have contingencies encase I fail. A clone ready, a cleric who will true res me if I fall, etc. Just because you manage to kill the BBEW doesn't mean he is gone.


Each one of those clones or true rezzes is another drain on his resources. It might take quite a few wacks at him but eh, that's what a party expects going after a high level caster. Also, every time you kill him, anything valuable he had, he lost and his plans are set back even more.



Perhaps this BBEG realizes that if his plan succeeds he gets to kill a thousand paladins. It is hard to believe that a BBEG ever became a BBEG if he can't delay gratification a bit.


:xykon:



Note that I refer to the players, no their characters. Although the party's wizard might have a 30 intelligence himself, there is no way in hell the player does--he'd be lucky to squeeze out a 16, realistically speaking. Likewise, the DM isn't smart enough to accurately portray such a staggering intellect without heavy metagaming. The tactics of an intelligence 30 creature are literally beyond the understanding of any of us, and our best plans are a joke to them.


There are ways around this, and a good DM should inform his players of them. If a PC has a absurdly high intelegence, on par with an absurdly smart BBEG, the player ought to have the option (and I think there is a Dragon article that deals with this specifically) of rolling an intelegence check to have figured out whatever it was that the BBEG figured out.

That said, it's kinda cumbersome and annoying to have to do that, so unless the players want to deal with that it's better just to deal with the mechanical aspects (rather than the RP aspects) of Int. on both sides of the table.

Also, I think mostly harmful's question was more about 'how can I have a powerful spellcaster BBEG and have it be reasonable that he doesn't squash the party outright'. Lots of folks have given examples of how it can be reasonable, if not optimal. Optimal is not the same as reasonable.

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-14, 01:27 PM
Only if he plans on not using any of his minions for the planning and early stages. Even if he doesn't tell his minions exactly what he is doing, if the BBEG found out what he needed to do to accomplish it the PC's can do the same thing.
Yes, the PC's could find out. But it is highly unlikely.


Humm... let's see, I'm not sure where you are getting a Permanent mindblak from (as it's not listed under things you can make Permanent) but even if you can and are referring to an expensive magical item there, that's 360,000 gp for himself and two liutenants (who have minions of their own that aren't mindblanked). That's nearly half of his net worth as a 20th level character. That's assuming he hasn't spent it on things, like scrolls to learn more spells, other magical items for himself (boccob's blessed book anyone? Copies of his spell book so if something happens he's not a really smart commoner.) and his minions, components for his evil plans, bribes to keep locals from ratting him out (which is better than threats) etc. All those things being the case, it just adds an extra step to get to the Liutenants through their lower level minions.
Third eye conceal is the permanent mind blank I was talking about, hence the "(third eye conceal)". As for WBL, he's a BBEG, do you really think he is constrained by such trivial things? The BBEG's organization has far more than 760,000 GP.


Additionally, if the minions have been mindblanked, every time one of them gets killed (say via poison tooth) it's another 120,000 gp down the tubes. Plus the 1,000 to bring them back, if he does. That's going to really get expensive after a few minions. If he can even afford it after a few minions. BBEG isn't going to get annoyed with that and take matters into his own hands?
Getting items back takes 1 spell, instant summons. There is also that contingent teleportation cast on him that activates on death.


Those are just the slots needed for his being safe. It's at least 3 or 4 slots used, one at eighth level. That's not chump change when going up against other casters who have access to similar level spells.
Yes, but he is avoiding going up against other casters of that level.


Each one of those clones or true rezzes is another drain on his resources. It might take quite a few wacks at him but eh, that's what a party expects going after a high level caster. Also, every time you kill him, anything valuable he had, he lost and his plans are set back even more.
You forget contingencies and instant summons. And how come you think that the BBEG has a set amount of resources that never change? He is killed, what, maybe once every 5 years? Thats a lot of time to rebuild your resources.



:xykon:

Is and idiot and a Sorcerer, NOT a wizard.

tainsouvra
2007-09-14, 01:38 PM
There are ways around this, and a good DM should inform his players of them. If a PC has a absurdly high intelegence, on par with an absurdly smart BBEG, the player ought to have the option (and I think there is a Dragon article that deals with this specifically) of rolling an intelegence check to have figured out whatever it was that the BBEG figured out. The problem with this idea is that the DM can't form a 30-intelligence plan either, so any BBEG the DM is controlling can't be roleplayed as having such a plan unless it's done entirely in the background (so the details can all be glossed over). It's just not humanly possible to have superhuman intelligence, so it's better to simply not introduce it to a human game--it's not like it's necessary anyway, a 19-intelligence BBEG is enough of a challenge as it is!
Also, I think mostly harmful's question was more about 'how can I have a powerful spellcaster BBEG and have it be reasonable that he doesn't squash the party outright'. Lots of folks have given examples of how it can be reasonable, if not optimal. Optimal is not the same as reasonable. To be perfectly frank, any solution that relies on a 16-intelligence player coming up with a plan for his character that outsmarts a 30-intelligence NPC is not reasonable, it's a massive plot hole or blatant DM pandering :smalltongue:

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-14, 01:43 PM
Consider using a BBEG Sorcerer, Psion or Wilder with Leadership and fixed limited known spells and except for the psion on supra genius intelligence.

He or she will have lots of underlings in his organization and can make a nice recurring villain always escaping to return again later.

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-14, 01:46 PM
Consider using a BBEG Sorcerer, Psion or Wilder with Leadership and fixed limited known spells.

He will have lots of underlings in his organization and can make a nice recurring villain always escaping to return again later.

Yes. That works. Sorcerers and clerics make much better BBEG's than wizards do. Psions aren't as good in the BBEG role because of their necessarily high intelligence, but the limited powers list is a big help.

Saph
2007-09-14, 01:53 PM
The problem with this idea is that the DM can't form a 30-intelligence plan either, so any BBEG the DM is controlling can't be roleplayed as having such a plan unless it's done entirely in the background (so the details can all be glossed over). It's just not humanly possible to have superhuman intelligence, so it's better to simply not introduce it to a human game--it's not like it's necessary anyway, a 19-intelligence BBEG is enough of a challenge as it is! To be perfectly frank, any solution that relies on a 16-intelligence player coming up with a plan for his character that outsmarts a 30-intelligence NPC is not reasonable, it's a massive plot hole or blatant DM pandering :smalltongue:

But it's completely reasonable for the 28-Intelligence PC to outsmart the 30-Intelligence NPC. If the PCs aren't played at their full Int scores, why should the NPC be?

Any mid- to high-level game is going to have lots of characters and monsters running around with superhumanly high intelligence scores. As long as you don't have one side getting benefits that the other doesn't (eg the 30-Int NPC gets played with godly intelligence, but the 28-Int PC doesn't), it's not really a problem. You just characterise them both as 'really smart' and forget about it. It's not like it's the most unrealistic thing in D&D. :P

- Saph

Nerd-o-rama
2007-09-14, 01:54 PM
Yes, the PC's could find out. But it is highly unlikely.
Why?

Minimum post lengths spoil the effect of rhetorical questions.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 02:01 PM
Yes, the PC's could find out. But it is highly unlikely.



Why is it unlikley if they are activley investigating the BBEG? He's got minions. They know something. Even if it's only 'we were supposed to kidnap x' or 'steal y'.



Third eye conceal is the permanent mind blank I was talking about, hence the "(third eye conceal)".

I just don't know where that is from. Where is it from?


As for WBL, he's a BBEG, do you really think he is constrained by such trivial things? The BBEG's organization has far more than 760,000 GP.


So, your basic argument here is then: a 20th level caster with infinite resources is untouchable. I'll give you that one. That's not a realistic BBEG either though. My point here is that using that using the rules a BBEG Wizard can be taken down by attrition of resources. If his organization has infinite resources, that's nice, but it's not raw.

WBL is not a trivial thing. It's a key balancing factor in 3.x. Discard it and a low level character can ice one much, much stronger than they are with the plethora of magical junk at their disposal.



Getting items back takes 1 spell, instant summons. There is also that contingent teleportation cast on him that activates on death.


Not if the item is in the posession of another creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm), like, say, the PC's who are looting your minions body and wait... where did our dimensional anchors go?


Yes, but he is avoiding going up against other casters of that level.

The point here is that they, the PC's, are activley hunting him. He has to make a choice of spending the slots to try to dodge them or not, use that slot for a disentigrate, and try to kill them all off.


You forget contingencies and instant summons. And how come you think that the BBEG has a set amount of resources that never change? He is killed, what, maybe once every 5 years? Thats a lot of time to rebuild your resources.


No, I did not forget contingencys and instant summons. See above. Also, it's not all that much time if your resources are constantly being drained by PC's killing your minions and messing up your plans. Also, 5 years is a lot if you are activley being hunted. It'd be more often than that I suspect.

Also, remember that 1,500 statue and one ogre mage eye lash (you can get those at your local BBEG Stop and Shop) for each of those failed contingencys.


The problem with this idea is that the DM can't form a 30-intelligence plan either, so any BBEG the DM is controlling can't be roleplayed as having such a plan unless it's done entirely in the background (so the details can all be glossed over). It's just not humanly possible to have superhuman intelligence, so it's better to simply not introduce it to a human game--it's not like it's necessary anyway, a 19-intelligence BBEG is enough of a challenge as it is!


Oh sure, the DM can't be that smart either. There is always going to be a human intelegence cap on the pc's and npc's. I'm just saying that the level of smart the DM can use to make his BBEG seem that smart can also be emulated using checks by the player.


To be perfectly frank, any solution that relies on a 16-intelligence player coming up with a plan for his character that outsmarts a 30-intelligence NPC is not reasonable, it's a massive plot hole or blatant DM pandering :smalltongue:

I don't really understand why that is. I totally can't smooth talk like a bard with his glibness on but the mechanics allow the game to represent as though I (PC) did with a mediocre lie I (Player) came up with. Don't see why that's unreasonable for idea's too. It's not the player's int that's the question the same way it's not my cha that is question when I'm playing a bard.

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-14, 02:02 PM
Why?
Because of how easy it is to lay false trails, the fact that minions most likely have no idea of why they are doing something, how easy it is to make double blind chains, the use of people in secure positions, etc.

The PC's need to learn information from, say, a hundred different minions to be able to put together the BBEG's plan in enough detail to know how to disrupt it. What happens when the PC's are off by a month?


Minimum post lengths spoil the effect of rhetorical questions.
thats why you fill the space with invisible text

tainsouvra
2007-09-14, 02:04 PM
But it's completely reasonable for the 28-Intelligence PC to outsmart the 30-Intelligence NPC. If the PCs aren't played at their full Int scores, why should the NPC be? The problem with PC's having higher intelligence than they can roleplay is another issue, and fuel for another thread I've been thinking about starting.
Any mid- to high-level game is going to have lots of characters and monsters running around with superhumanly high intelligence scores. As long as you don't have one side getting benefits that the other doesn't (eg the 30-Int NPC gets played with godly intelligence, but the 28-Int PC doesn't), it's not really a problem. You just characterise them both as 'really smart' and forget about it. It's not like it's the most unrealistic thing in D&D. :P I'll have to start a new thread to address this later this weekend. The short version is that, with those kind of intelligence scores, metagaming becomes a good thing and the game becomes significantly more complex--unless, of course, all involved are fine with intelligence scores having nothing to do with intelligence.

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-14, 02:13 PM
Why is it unlikley if they are activley investigating the BBEG? He's got minions. They know something. Even if it's only 'we were supposed to kidnap x' or 'steal y'.
See my last post.


I just don't know where that is from. Where is it from?
XPH, its in the SRD.


So, your basic argument here is then: a 20th level caster with infinite resources is untouchable. I'll give you that one. That's not a realistic BBEG either though. My point here is that using that using the rules a BBEG Wizard can be taken down by attrition of resources. If his organization has infinite resources, that's nice, but it's not raw.

WBL is not a trivial thing. It's a key balancing factor in 3.x. Discard it and a low level character can ice one much, much stronger than they are with the plethora of magical junk at their disposal.
WBL is for the resources of a person in combat. IT covers the BBEG's spellbook and his personal equipment. It has nothing to do with the resources of his organization. Just like a level 20 king can make use of the kingdoms resources, which are far in excess of 760,000 GP without exceeding his WBL.


Not if the item is in the posession of another creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm), like, say, the PC's who are looting your minions body and wait... where did our dimensional anchors go?
So long as someone isn't wearing it the BEBG gets it back. And even if they are it lets him know who killed his lieutenant and now has the eye. The PC's just lost all hope of being covert. The BBEG now goes and highers the best assassin in the multiverse to kill you all and get his item back. 50,000 GP to kill a pary of 4-5 relatively weak guys and to recover an item worth 120,000 GP. It's well worth it.


The point here is that they, the PC's, are activley hunting him. He has to make a choice of spending the slots to try to dodge them or not, use that slot for a disentigrate, and try to kill them all off.
Dodging them is better than killing them. Polymorph Any Object and I make my loyal minion look exactly like me. You spend your time off killing him while I am living in a little hamlet somewhere pretending to be a potter. You kill him and I go find another guy to take his place.


No, I did not forget contingencys and instant summons. See above. Also, it's not all that much time if your resources are constantly being drained by PC's killing your minions and messing up your plans. Also, 5 years is a lot if you are activley being hunted. It'd be more often than that I suspect.
I said an average of once every 5 years. If the BBEG has been working for 30 years before the PC's come along that is 6 deaths before they have gone over that average.


Also, remember that 1,500 statue and one ogre mage eye lash (you can get those at your local BBEG Stop and Shop) for each of those failed contingencys.
Craft Contingent Spell.

tainsouvra
2007-09-14, 02:17 PM
I don't really understand why that is. I totally can't smooth talk like a bard with his glibness on but the mechanics allow the game to represent as though I (PC) did with a mediocre lie I (Player) came up with. Don't see why that's unreasonable for idea's too. It's not the player's int that's the question the same way it's not my cha that is question when I'm playing a bard. This is dramatically different, though. Here's why...

When a player of average charisma is playing a character with stellar charisma, he states what he is trying to accomplish then the dice are rolled to see how well the character did it. Although the player can't display that level of charisma, he can roleplay what his character does and let the dice decide how well it is done.

When a player of average intelligence is playing a character with stellar intelligence, he doesn't know exactly what his character would believe should be accomplished except in extremely basic terms. Since the player is unable to identify what his character would do, he can't roleplay what his character does, and if any dice are rolled they produce a metagame result.

A player can roleplay higher charisma than he has because he can still describe the situation, he just can't do it himself. A character can't roleplay higher intelligence than he has because he is unable to describe the situation.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 03:01 PM
A player can roleplay higher charisma than he has because he can still describe the situation, he just can't do it himself. A character can't roleplay higher intelligence than he has because he is unable to describe the situation.

I don't really think I agree with that. "Mike the bard tells a suitably amazing lie' (roll dice) and "Philip the Wizard racks his brain to see if he can come up with anything" (roll d20) don't seem all that diffrent to me


See my last post.


Didn't want to double post but that also assumes an infinite amount of resorces (minions and time are resources). I'll talk about that more below.



XPH, its in the SRD.


Huh. Never noticed it before. Neat.



WBL is for the resources of a person in combat. IT covers the BBEG's spellbook and his personal equipment.


WBL is his total personal resources regardless of if he has them in combat. It covers his spellbook, equimpent and any money he, personally, has to spend (or has already spent in his advancement in level. Those tomes of understanding to boost his int are a one time use and don't come cheap).


It has nothing to do with the resources of his organization. Just like a level 20 king can make use of the kingdoms resources, which are far in excess of 760,000 GP without exceeding his WBL.


Actually, for a mundane king, it might not be that much in excess but that's a different arguement.

To the point: Yes, if the BBEG now has a huge organization (not an inherent property of being a high level wizard) that provides additional resources (not all organizations do), the organization as a whole might posess a net worth in the millions of gold peices. But just like the king much of that wealth is not accessable. The keep might be worth 200,000 gp but it's not as though the king can just sell it off at his leisure. The same is true of all the money invested in the equipment, traps, bribes, minions, etc. that the organization as a whole has to spend. I don't have a DMG 2 to hand but there are rules in the back for organization building. The attrition method works just fine there too.


So long as someone isn't wearing it the BEBG gets it back.

Erm no. Some other being merely needs to have laid claim to it. They just have to own it now. They don't need to be wearing it. It can be in their backpack or their vault.



And even if they are it lets him know who killed his lieutenant and now has the eye. The PC's just lost all hope of being covert.

I presume we are assuimg the PC's are not foolish here either, when they detect magic on the thing they will see his arcane mark and at that point bye bye instant summons and knowing where they are. They can just dispell it or if that doesn't take, smash the object.


The BBEG now goes and highers the best assassin in the multiverse to kill you all and get his item back. 50,000 GP to kill a pary of 4-5 relatively weak guys and to recover an item worth 120,000 GP. It's well worth it.

This assumes at least two things beyond the party being silly and not checking the items on the slayed minion for arcane marks as well as other traps. It assumes:

1. the assassian will work with the BBEG at all, not a given. Especially if the BBEG, keeping all his dealings a secret, has no cred in the circles assassians get most of their work from.
2. The BBEG is getting a discount rate. The assassians out there that can, and would be willing to try to, take out a 16 - 18th level party are not all that common and would clearly demand more money for killing the party than they could get for just killing the party on their own and taking their stuff for themselves. Assassians who are near epic have good business sense.



Dodging them is better than killing them. Polymorph Any Object and I make my loyal minion look exactly like me. You spend your time off killing him while I am living in a little hamlet somewhere pretending to be a potter. You kill him and I go find another guy to take his place.


And never further your evil plans again for so long as the PC's live and you having abandoned control of your organization live as a potter... I fail to see how that's better if you are a BBEG with plans. Also, if your loyal minions have a habit of turning up dead every 6 months or so I suspect you may run out of loyal minions pretty fast. There are those nasty 'got your minions/cohorts killed' negative modifers on the leadership feat that stack.



I said an average of once every 5 years. If the BBEG has been working for 30 years before the PC's come along that is 6 deaths before they have gone over that average.


I don't think so. He would have had to be building up the pool of funds in that orgainzation of his, and gaining levels, for those 30 years. That's already built in.



Craft Contingent Spell.

I don't think I have the book that's from. Does the feat 'craft contingent spell' avoid the material components cost of casting contingency? I thought it just allowed you to put contingencys on others and have more than one on yourself.

It's only 1,500 compared to the 120,000 getting lost anyway but still.

tainsouvra
2007-09-14, 03:06 PM
I don't really think I agree with that. "Mike the bard tells a suitably amazing lie' (roll dice) and "Philip the Wizard racks his brain to see if he can come up with anything" (roll d20) don't seem all that diffrent to me They are remarkably different. Look at it this way:
The result of telling a suitably amazing lie is that you are believed. This can be roleplayed by having your character tell a lie and the NPC believing you. Easy to do.
The result of coming up with a suitably amazing plan is that you have an amazing plan. This can be roleplayed by having your character act on a plan that nobody at the table is actually capable of formulating. Fundamentally impossible to do without some major metagaming.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 03:09 PM
They are remarkably different. Look at it this way:
The result of telling a suitably amazing lie is that you are believed. This can be roleplayed by having your character tell a lie and the NPC believing you. Easy to do.
The result of coming up with a suitably amazing plan is that you have an amazing plan. This can be roleplayed by having your character act on a plan that nobody at the table is actually capable of formulating. Fundamentally impossible to do without some major metagaming.

Nah. Just view it like a search check.

Player: I search the room.
DM: You find a ruby:

Player: I wrack my brain for a soloution.
DM: You come up with (insert plan similar to BBEG's here).

tainsouvra
2007-09-14, 03:19 PM
Nah. Just view it like a search check.

Player: I search the room.
DM: You find a ruby:

Player: I wrack my brain for a soloution.
DM: You come up with (insert plan similar to BBEG's here). That's just passing the buck, you haven't done a thing to address high intelligence there. That "solution" relies on there being a defined plan for the BBEG, which has exactly the same roleplaying limitations as the initial situation--nobody at the table is intelligent enough to make the plan in the first place.

Are you familiar with the idea of a "halting problem"? It's the same situation here as far as in-game solutions go. Unless you can form a superintelligent plan, you can't form a superintelligent plan.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 03:25 PM
That's just passing the buck, you haven't done a thing to address high intelligence there. That "solution" relies on there being a defined plan for the BBEG, which has exactly the same roleplaying limitations as the initial situation--nobody at the table is intelligent enough to make the plan in the first place.

Are you familiar with the idea of a "halting problem"? It's the same situation here as far as in-game solutions go. Unless you can form a superintelligent plan, you can't form a superintelligent plan.

Ok, yes, but that's what I already conceded to you regarding intelegence levels of the players and the DM. My point was only that the relative fictional intelegence (not RPed to the full extent because that would be impossible) of the BBEG and the Brilliant PC could be balanced against eachother in such a manner.

PsyBlade
2007-09-14, 03:33 PM
I haven't read through this whole topic, but I do have something to say.

Just because the BBEG is smart, it doesn't mean the party can't be damaging his/her plans by accident. Pure dumb luck is super annoying to those who think they've planned for everything. And an angry foe is a dumb foe. And dumb foes do stupid things, that ends up just making the party even luckier. You'd be suprised, you know what? Just watch Get Smart or Inspector Gadget or the Pink Panther films. Those heroes tend to win over smarter opponents, despite a lack of competence or worse. Columbo is a good example of Obfuscating Stupidity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.ObfuscatingStupidity). That can be just as aggravating, especially if you never find before it is too late for you to know that is a common tactic of your enemy.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-09-14, 03:43 PM
My rule of thumb for running BBEGs: Imagine he is a PC in a game GMed by a sadistic angel.

I've found that works remarkably well for figuring out where to put cracks, flaws, mishaps, and SNAFUs in the best laid plans. And don't forget every time your PCs have gathered all your clues, analyzed them, and come up with a completely wrong answer. Or completely underestimated an encounter only to be run off with their tails between their legs. Why can't the BBEG do the same? There is no Intelligence score that gives you a 0% chance of doing something stupid.

Sh*t happens. Being evil doesn't exempt you from that.

Nightgaunt
2007-09-14, 03:51 PM
I read through this whole topic, and I am drawing some interesting conclusions.

The posters here are all intelligent. I guess that because they all put an unhealthy weight upon the importantce of intelligence. I say this because their has been mention of using a sorcerer or a priest who is easier because they aren't so smart.

-Think about this carefully. Are the most powerful people you know also the smartest? What about on a global level on Earth? Are the most powerful people on the planet earth the most brilliant?

No, in general the most powerful people on the planet use Charisma not intelligence to reach their goals. Granted we don't have access to magic, but a sorcerer would beat a wizard hands down. Why? Because a super intelligent wizard with a mediocre charisma won't have any followers. He won't have any friends, he won't have a network of spies. And if he does, they will mess up his plans. It's not intelligence that allows you to figure out who is trustworthy and who is not, that's Wisdom. And it's not intelligence that gets undying loyalty, that's Charisma. Even the various Charm spells require opposed Charisma checks.The reason I always like the "wizard in a far off tower" but is because they are so smart. They can build elaborate traps, and come up with brilliant strategies. But no one will implement them, in short, they have no friends. If the Wizard did build some organization to support this plans, he'd still need to use up a lot of spells on various divinations to make sure his massive group is not lying and cheating on him.

In short I think the answer to the opening thread is one of 2 choices.

1) Play your intelligent wizard as I described. If he has mediocre Charisma and Wisdom scores he is going ot have real problems recruiting and keeping loyal followers. Sense Motive is a cross-class Wisdom based skill. In other words, the Wizard, for all of his genius, is easily fooled by a clever tongue. So while he may have great spells and massive resources, his plans may not work the way he wants them to. People aren't chess pieces, they have a will of their own. The best laid plans of a wizard can be undone by the grosse incompetence of his organization, and his inability to figure out who to trust and who not to trust. Even divination spells aren't bullet proof, and the great True Seeing can't even penetrate a Disguise check.

2) Play your intelligent as many people here claim wizards should be. That is they are super arch-villians who formulate unholy plans that are carried out perfectly by their massive army of loyal followers. But the wizard has a lot of things on his mind. The wizard does not spend all day thinking about the PC's or even all of his plans. If he is inacting a plan to conquer the world, the minutia of many different events are ignored by him. He does not have time to deal with the "trivial" things, and that is where the PCs can get him time and again. The wizard may not even realize he has a Rival until they are at his throats.

"So your the ones who ruined my Spell Component Shipment" the wizard roars.

I have made frequent use of BBEG as wizards, and mostly their weakness is more in line with number 1, then number 2. But both are possible. My Clerics tend to fall in to number 2. They have massive organizations and many thoughts clawing at their minds. They don't have time to just sit around plotting against the PC's.

That is what you need Dr. Claw for!

Nightgaunt
2007-09-14, 03:54 PM
I would like to say that Mike Lemmer managed to say 90% of what I did in 10% of the space....

*sigh*

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 04:10 PM
The posters here are all intelligent. I guess that because they all put an unhealthy weight upon the importantce of intelligence. I say this because their has been mention of using a sorcerer or a priest who is easier because they aren't so smart.

-Think about this carefully. Are the most powerful people you know also the smartest? What about on a global level on Earth? Are the most powerful people on the planet earth the most brilliant?

No, in general the most powerful people on the planet use Charisma not intelligence to reach their goals.

And this is why we low charisma high int geeks are sitting around posting on the OotS boards rather than running things. ;-)

I totally agree with you by the way. I've just been arguing the point because a) I like to argue, b) I honestly don't think a BBEG wizard using his full int is unbeatable, even without the entirely valid objections you raise.

tainsouvra
2007-09-14, 04:16 PM
Nightgaunt, remember that a sufficiently-powerful spellcaster can make his own minions via magic. Never forget that option is readily-available in the D&D universe, and would rightly be the favored option of a spellcaster who couldn't be bothered to use his magic to make himself supernaturally wise and charismatic. :smallsmile:

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 04:21 PM
Nightgaunt, remember that a sufficiently-powerful spellcaster can make his own minions via magic. Never forget that option is readily-available in the D&D universe, and would rightly be the favored option of a spellcaster who couldn't be bothered to use his magic to make himself supernaturally wise and charismatic. :smallsmile:

True, although it's kinda hard to be inconspicuous when all of your evil minions are undead or golems. They tend to attract attention. :smallwink:

Emperor Tippy
2007-09-14, 04:28 PM
I'm respond to all other points later as I have to go in like 2 miniutes.

First off I have a challenge for anyone who wants to take me up on it: I get to make a wizard build using any 3.5 books I want and all you have to do is assassinate my wizard (you can have a party of wizard, cleric, fighter, and rogue, built however you want). You have to find an agreeable DM though.

As for minions, thats what we have Dominate Monster, Geas, and (most importantly) Programmed Amnesia.

With that last one I can make anyone into a perfectly loyal person who will do whatever I want, even commit suicide on command.

tainsouvra
2007-09-14, 04:29 PM
True, although it's kinda hard to be inconspicuous when all of your evil minions are undead or golems. They tend to attract attention. :smallwink: True, but I think that's mixing two types of BBEG's. There's one type who is a reclusive mastermind who can't be bothered to function within society, and there's another type who is a manipulative mastermind who wants to blend in with society. If a wizard belongs to the former, he makes and summons minions that are incapable of betraying him. If a wizard belongs to the latter, he uses his magic to become wise and charismatic enough to pull it off reliably.

Tobrian
2007-09-14, 04:29 PM
Tactics for smart but incompetant spell-slingers

Why does the NPC have to be incompetent for the PCs to win? Use golems and constructs against necromancers. Use oozes and constructs against enchanters, beguilers and druids. Hell, use constructs against everything, unless it's an Eberron wage-mage with special anti-construct spells. Summon creatures with spell resistance against evokers. Transmuters usually buff their minions or themselves, so use Greater Dispel. Enchanters? One protection from evil spell blocks all attempts to command or dominate, an example how whole character concepts and PrCs like the Mindbender can be neutralized by one simple 1st level spell. :smallannoyed:

The point is, the first thing every PCs should do is get information about his opponent. Unfortunately, many D&D players seem to think that kicking in the door is a useful strategy, cuz that's what your basic dungeon crawl boils down to.


I've run into a problem with wizard BBEGs in the past, just got done running one myself. This applies to almost any full caster, in DnD and most other high magic worlds. Running an enemy with Int through the roof and reality reshaping power that doesn't win against a party of adventurers several levels lower than themselves.

Why do you think all casters have to be intelligent masters of planning? Look at Xykon, who is of average intelligence, impatient and has the wisdom of a box of mouldy carrots. He simply wins by crushing the enemy with superior firepower, like a 4-year-old with a temper tantrum. (See Start of Darkness for an example of when this strategy didn't work.)


The problem with this idea is that the DM can't form a 30-intelligence plan either, so any BBEG the DM is controlling can't be roleplayed as having such a plan unless it's done entirely in the background (so the details can all be glossed over). It's just not humanly possible to have superhuman intelligence, so it's better to simply not introduce it to a human game--it's not like it's necessary anyway, a 19-intelligence BBEG is enough of a challenge as it is! To be perfectly frank, any solution that relies on a 16-intelligence player coming up with a plan for his character that outsmarts a 30-intelligence NPC is not reasonable, it's a massive plot hole or blatant DM pandering :smalltongue:

Perhaps it would help if people stopped thinking that the INT score has anything to do with actual real-world intelligence or smartness (instead of knowledge, logical thinking or other things commonly tested for by I.Q.-tests). If that was the case, really, explain to me how someone manages to raise his intelligence from high to superhuman? The INT score is a game stat that governs a modifier on knowledge skills and spell DCs. That's all there is to it. Yes, wizards are usually smart, they can grasp complicated stuff and have a great memory because they train it all the time. That doesnt mean they're always clever. To forsee the actions of your enemies, you need Sense Motive, in short you need social awareness.

The human brain (yes, I'm a biologist, sorry for the rant) is able to adjust its neuronal network to whatever tasks and challenges it faces often. Learning things by rote improves memory retention. Games can significantly improve certain specialized functions, like hand-eye coordination, three-dimensional thinking or (like first-person shooters were just proven to do) perception of objects in peripheral vision and simultaneous recognition of multiple moving objects. Unfortunately, negative emotional experiences can shape the brain, too, leading to traumata, anxienty disorders, sociopathic behaviour and other things. The brain reshapes itself for survival.


That's right! The BBEG is not supposed to be a supercharacter! He is supposed to have flaws of some kind, just like everyone else. Int 40 Wis 30 doesn't mean that he can't be impatient or for God's sake overly cruel. If he can do it and get away with it (He thinks his contingency is good enough for anything. It's the PCs job to figure out what it isn't good for and exploit that.) then he should.

Also, remember that just because a character has powerful magic and a high int doesn't mean he is wise. Hubris can befall the most powerful of villians. It's a little cliche I'll admit but having the badguy dismiss the party out of hand as no real threat is cliche for a reason.

Well said.


That's great, but most people neither know how to make an untouchable character nor particularly care. Unless you happen to be playing with a group of people who make unkillable combat monster characters, and expect the BBEG to be one too, there's no reason to make him one. The BBEG serves the plot, not vice versa. His job is not to be an exercise in character optimisation, his job is to get beaten by the PCs in as entertaining a fashion as possible. If your BBEG annihilates the PCs in the final battle with no risk to himself, that means you've designed him badly.

Exactly. I have nothing to add to that. :smallsmile:

Well ok, maybe I do. I get the feeling some people are so hypnotized by the propaganda that wizards are unbeatable that they're staring at it like a deer in front of the headlights of a truck, unable to see past this delusion.

And why does everyone seem to believe that wizard antagonists have to be 20th level with INT 30? Especially if the PCs aren't anywhere near that level? You know, most 1st level characters I know don't start out with (insert primary stat) 18. Usually, when I ask why people think that wizards are unbeatable powermachines they first thing that comes up like a mantra is "timestop". "Unbeatable spell combos", they yell. They babble about swift spells. (Eh. The groups I play in mostly play Core, they don't even use Swift spells.)

I've played a lot of wizards over the years, and I'm still waiting for my unbeatable wizard character with that "automatic cheese" and world-shaking foe-crushing spells. Wizards under 3.5 rules are actually worse off than under 3.0 rules, if you ask me. Sure they have more different spells than a sorcerer and more elemental spells than a cleric (but fewer spells per day). But it's not like my poor wizard has unlimited spell slots or a thousand wands to cast them all in the same round. And usually I find when reading the spell descriptions that I cannot combine this spell with that spell like I wanted anyway. And half the spells I want I don't have in my spellbook, and half of the spells I have and would need right now I don't have memorized because I don't have the spell slots available.

At high levels, I usually find that non-spellcasters have enough resources on their own (magic items, buff spells, PrCs, bizarre feats or symbionts). All spells your little overpowered caster antagonist throws around usually either allow for a saving throw, or spell resistance, or can be countered by protection spells, or simply survived by dint of having lots of hitpoints. Frankly if I was an optimized mage-killer warrior, I'd be more scared of Force Cage than Power Word Death.

Now, druids with spells from the Spell Compendium, and those cheesy special classes like Beguiler and Warmage and Duskblade, THOSE are scary.

Anyone who ambushes an epic level antagonist of ANY class in his/her own lair is deeply stupid. If the GM forces the PCs to confront an enemy they cannot beat in a place where he/she has home turf advantage and they get slaughtered, it's the GM's fault.


My RL PC's already know how to make an untouchable wizard. We take turns playing as the BBEG against the party fairly often. There was that one campaign where the sole objective was to assassinate a level 20 wizard king without being a full caster. The party went from level 3 to level 20 and took 38 ingame years of pretty much continuous work to do it, and in the process all but 1 of them died.

Congrats. And then the PCs went home and discovered that they had never accomplished anything else in their lives, and now they were 60 years old or older and still virgins.

[EDITED TO ADD]

They are remarkably different. Look at it this way:
The result of telling a suitably amazing lie is that you are believed. This can be roleplayed by having your character tell a lie and the NPC believing you. Easy to do.
The result of coming up with a suitably amazing plan is that you have an amazing plan. This can be roleplayed by having your character act on a plan that nobody at the table is actually capable of formulating. Fundamentally impossible to do without some major metagaming.

Why? The player is not the character. A character can come up with a plan the player can't. Sure, it's a bit awkward because it relies on the GM giving the player hints and information that his character should have, but it's not so different from asking the GM, "Can I roll for knowledge (arcana) if my character can make sense of those ancient mystic runes?" Unless you run your PCs as player-avatars, like in MMORPGs.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-14, 04:31 PM
I'm respond to all other points later as I have to go in like 2 miniutes.

First off I have a challenge for anyone who wants to take me up on it: I get to make a wizard build using any 3.5 books I want and all you have to do is assassinate my wizard (you can have a party of wizard, cleric, fighter, and rogue, built however you want). You have to find an agreeable DM though.

As for minions, thats what we have Dominate Monster, Geas, and (most importantly) Programmed Amnesia.

With that last one I can make anyone into a perfectly loyal person who will do whatever I want, even commit suicide on command.


I'll take Vaarsuvius's approch to this one: sneak in, litter the place with half a bajillion explosive runes, watch the fireworks.

psychoticbarber
2007-09-14, 04:32 PM
Personally, I don't limit the intelligence of my BBEGs. I do, however, make them extremely busy. If the PCs are to defeat the BBEG at lower levels, it's going to be because he was to busy dealing with entire Churches and Governments and just didn't have enough oomph to deal with the party when they came a'knockin', shouting, "You killed my Dad/Brother/Puppy!"

Another good way to go, I find (though I'll admit this is less related to the topic than the previous statement), is to make the BBEG completely harmless in combat. It's the Lex Luthor (ignoring the occasional tech gadget he gets) syndrome. He's only scary because of what he can get other people to do.

If you really want to frighten your party, combine the two. Enchanter/Master Specialist/Archmage is a really, really scary Wizard. Play it like The Master (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_(Doctor_Who)). "I am the Master, and you will obey me." Brr, chilling stuff :smallwink:.

If the PCs work on a very blunt level (kick in the door), confront them with a backdoor operator. If your PCs work on a very subtle level, confront them with bigass scary Cleric or something with some kick-in-the-door flair.

I think I'm done rambling now, hope some of this was useful!

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 04:41 PM
True, but I think that's mixing two types of BBEG's. There's one type who is a reclusive mastermind who can't be bothered to function within society, and there's another type who is a manipulative mastermind who wants to blend in with society. If a wizard belongs to the former, he makes and summons minions that are incapable of betraying him. If a wizard belongs to the latter, he uses his magic to become wise and charismatic enough to pull it off reliably.

Point about mixing types. For the latter though, that's a lot of Wishes, Tomes or spells made permanent. Lots of gold, xp, or both go bye bye.

The_Werebear
2007-09-14, 04:43 PM
I'm respond to all other points later as I have to go in like 2 miniutes.

First off I have a challenge for anyone who wants to take me up on it: I get to make a wizard build using any 3.5 books I want and all you have to do is assassinate my wizard (you can have a party of wizard, cleric, fighter, and rogue, built however you want). You have to find an agreeable DM though.

As for minions, thats what we have Dominate Monster, Geas, and (most importantly) Programmed Amnesia.

With that last one I can make anyone into a perfectly loyal person who will do whatever I want, even commit suicide on command.

If we can find a DM, I'm up for the party wizard

Mike_Lemmer
2007-09-14, 04:45 PM
As for minions, thats what we have Dominate Monster, Geas, and (most importantly) Programmed Amnesia.

With that last one I can make anyone into a perfectly loyal person who will do whatever I want, even commit suicide on command.

Ah, Programmed Amnesia, another entry in the "I can't believe they made a spell that does this" category. There should be a BBEG-creation rule:

I will not give my BBEGs any spells or spell combos I would deck the players for using in the exact same way.

Saph
2007-09-14, 04:47 PM
First off I have a challenge for anyone who wants to take me up on it: I get to make a wizard build using any 3.5 books I want and all you have to do is assassinate my wizard (you can have a party of wizard, cleric, fighter, and rogue, built however you want). You have to find an agreeable DM though.

How exactly would this exercise in geek chest-beating prove anything about how to run an entertaining game? All this would come down to is a competition between who can abuse the loopholes in the 3.5 rules more, you or the other guy.

"I use Candles of Invocation to gate in every Titan in the multiverse!"
"I use a repeating Time stop to take infinite actions!"
"I become Pun-Pun!"
"I become Pun-Pun and go back in time and kill you before you can become Pun-Pun!"
"I become Pun-Pun and go back in time and kill your parents before you can become Pun-Pun!"
"I destroy your entire species!"
"I destroy the multiverse!"

. . . etc.

- Saph

AKA_Bait
2007-09-14, 04:49 PM
How exactly would this exercise in geek chest-beating prove anything about how to run an entertaining game? All this would come down to is a competition between who can abuse the loopholes in the 3.5 rules more, you or the other guy.

"I use Candles of Invocation to gate in every Titan in the multiverse!"
"I use a repeating Time stop to take infinite actions!"
"I become Pun-Pun!"
"I become Pun-Pun and go back in time and kill you before you can become Pun-Pun!"
"I become Pun-Pun and go back in time and kill your parents before you can become Pun-Pun!"
"I destroy your entire species!"
"I destroy the multiverse!"

. . . etc.

- Saph

The lady has a point.


Ah, Programmed Amnesia, another entry in the "I can't believe they made a spell that does this" category. There should be a BBEG-creation rule:

I will not give my BBEGs any spells or spell combos I would deck the players for using in the exact same way.

QFT. I use that rule myself.

Tobrian
2007-09-14, 04:52 PM
First off I have a challenge for anyone who wants to take me up on it: I get to make a wizard build using any 3.5 books I want and all you have to do is assassinate my wizard (you can have a party of wizard, cleric, fighter, and rogue, built however you want). You have to find an agreeable DM though.

ANY book? Ok. I don't need no stinkin' party. I play Pun-Pun the mighty kobold. I win. Next!


As for minions, thats what we have Dominate Monster, Geas, and (most importantly) Programmed Amnesia.

With that last one I can make anyone into a perfectly loyal person who will do whatever I want, even commit suicide on command.

Geas cannot force someone to commit suicide.
Dominate? I use an amulet with Protection from Evil. You were saying?

You sound like the kind of guy who sits in his room pesting online GMs to allow you to play a mindflayer psion/sorcerer with no LA. I mean, even a game like D&D should be about more than running stat-optimized monsters against each other in the equivalent of an arena death match. Sure, you can always claim, "My character has unlimited this, or unlimited that, my character is unbeatable if I'm allowed to run the combo of n-1000 spells all at once". Pff. What's the point? :smallannoyed:

tainsouvra
2007-09-14, 04:54 PM
Perhaps it would help if people stopped thinking that the INT score has anything to do with actual real-world intelligence or smartness (instead of knowledge, logical thinking or other things commonly tested for by I.Q.-tests). If that was the case, really, explain to me how someone manages to raise his intelligence from high to superhuman? Magic. That's the only reason, and the only reason we need. It's the same way someone becomes superhumanly strong, fast, resilient, etc. Magic, not anything that happens in our reality.
The INT score is a game stat that governs a modifier on knowledge skills and spell DCs. That's all there is to it. Yes, wizards are usually smart, they can grasp complicated stuff and have a great memory because they train it all the time. That doesnt mean they're always clever. To forsee the actions of your enemies, you need Sense Motive, in short you need social awareness. Or access to Divination magic...which Wizards do :smalltongue:
And why does everyone seem to believe that wizard antagonists have to be 20th level with INT 30? The premise of this thread.
Running an enemy with Int through the roof and reality reshaping power that doesn't win against a party of adventurers several levels lower than themselves
...naturally not all Wizards fit that bill. I generally don't face off my players against anything over intelligence 19, but such encounters wouldn't fit the premise of this thread, so I only mentioned that in passing.
I've played a lot of wizards over the years, and I'm still waiting for my unbeatable wizard character with that "automatic cheese" and world-shaking foe-crushing spells.
[...]
All spells your little overpowered caster antagonist throws around usually either allow for a saving throw, or spell resistance, or can be countered by protection spells, or simply survived by dint of having lots of hitpoints. Frankly if I was an optimized mage-killer warrior, I'd be more scared of Force Cage than Power Word Death. I grouped these two quotes together for a reason, and in short it's that if you think a wizard would prefer instant-death spells to instant-trap spells, you're not talking about the right kind of wizard to be analyzing their claims. You may wish to read one of the guides on making a game-breaking wizard before you dismiss their claims, I don't think you know the builds they're talking about.

Edit to match an edit:
Why? The player is not the character. A character can come up with a plan the player can't. Sure, it's a bit awkward because it relies on the GM giving the player hints and information that his character should have, but it's not so different from asking the GM, "Can I roll for knowledge (arcana) if my character can make sense of those ancient mystic runes?" Actually, it's fundamentally different in a way that has already been addressed in this thread. For the DM to give the player hints about a superhumanly-intelligent plot, the DM would have to have made a superhumanly-intelligent plot, which he is fundamentally incapable of doing. That's the halting problem again.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-09-14, 05:14 PM
Or access to Divination magic...which Wizards do.

Most BBEG Wizards seem content with Know GM's Metagame Knowledge. I've only seen divination against my party played out once (a check to determine someone was scrying on us just before demons teleported in), and I don't trust anything the GM says the BBEG learned "away from the table". Sorry, but I know how tempting it is to just say, "He's my BBEG, he knows whatever I want him to!" without going through the motions (and giving the PCs a chance to foil them).


For the DM to give the player hints about a superhumanly-intelligent plot, the DM would have to have made a superhumanly-intelligent plot, which he is fundamentally incapable of doing. That's the halting problem again.

Well, not exactly... there is one way around it.

Take relativity. It took a genius like Einstein to figure it out, but now most college physics students understand it. A superhuman intelligence could figure out a connection no one else has, then put a practical plot into action to take advantage of it. If the PCs manage to gather his notes, they can quickly figure out what the BBEG's up to (in spite of being several IQ points lower & with much less time), then the average-intelligence schemers can plot how to throw the entire thing off.

Kaelik
2007-09-14, 05:55 PM
"I become Pun-Pun!"

Just when I was about to volunteer you had to go and ruin the surprise.

Dervag
2007-09-14, 08:09 PM
If the PC's actually want him dead they get a god or more powerful wizard to do it. They don't directly fight and defeat teh BBEG, they frame him for the destruction of a gods church. Or call in a favor from that BBGW who they helped out a few years back.That's only fun for certain kinds of players, and not for others; it's not a satisfactory general solution.


[Xykon] Is and idiot and a Sorcerer, NOT a wizard.Exactly.

First of all, the difference between a mighty evil wizard and a mighty evil sorceror is not very important from the party's point of view. Second of all, Xykon is indeed an idiot, or, more accurately, a fool. But he is a fool for an understandable reason.

Being a lich, he can reasonably expect to live forever or until some incredibly unlikely worldwide disaster offs him. He's got phenomenal cosmic power. But what good does that power do him if he can't use it in ways that he finds interesting?

So instead of being an omniscient mastermind who will try something fifty times and teleport away every time if he faces a setback, he's a hands-on kind of guy. He likes mixing it up with his enemies and using his vastly superior spells to wreck them. And he's so powerful that he can get away with it ("follow the bouncing ball!")

Yes, he is occasionally at some degree of risk of being killed, but that doesn't mean he's an unconvincing character. Insofar as he is it is because he is deliberately engineered for comic effect, rather than because he has character defects.

A supremely intelligent person may very well enjoy confrontation and be satisfied with having, say, one layer of backup plan (such as a clone in cold storage). Certainly, a 20th-level wizard (and who ever said that all menacing, powerful wizards have to be 20th-level?) can construct an overwhelming magical defense in depth that no PCs can hope to break faster than he can rebuild it. But it is not true that every intelligent person would do this, given the vast expense, both in resources and in one's own time and energy, required to do it.


Because of how easy it is to lay false trails, the fact that minions most likely have no idea of why they are doing something, how easy it is to make double blind chains, the use of people in secure positions, etc.

The PC's need to learn information from, say, a hundred different minions to be able to put together the BBEG's plan in enough detail to know how to disrupt it. What happens when the PC's are off by a month?Why does this remind me of that 'Prague Project' idea you came up with for constructing an unstoppable army of golems?

The problem with this and the problem with that are similar. The sheer scale of organization and discipline required to create an organization in which no one knows anything important is mind-blowing. It falls under the category of "unlimited resources." And giving any character, even a first-level character, unlimited resources is going to break the game and make it impossible for any conceivable good guys to do anything about it.


Are you familiar with the idea of a "halting problem"? It's the same situation here as far as in-game solutions go. Unless you can form a superintelligent plan, you can't form a superintelligent plan.You can, however, form a plan that will act as if it is superintelligent. Any plan that will work can be made superintelligent in a fictional context by the simple expedient of letting it work. If it's a PC plan, then all the DM has to do is let it succeed, just as he can let a PC lie succeed if he wants to simulate the fact that the lying character is far more charismatic than the lying player.


No, in general the most powerful people on the planet use Charisma not intelligence to reach their goals. Granted we don't have access to magic, but a sorcerer would beat a wizard hands down. Why? Because a super intelligent wizard with a mediocre charisma won't have any followers. He won't have any friends, he won't have a network of spies.Or rather, he will have as many friends (roughly) as a normal person would. Normal people have friends, but are generally (as you say) not able to coordinate or manage large groups without running into trouble.


Well, not exactly... there is one way around it.

Take relativity. It took a genius like Einstein to figure it out, but now most college physics students understand it. A superhuman intelligence could figure out a connection no one else has, then put a practical plot into action to take advantage of it. If the PCs manage to gather his notes, they can quickly figure out what the BBEG's up to (in spite of being several IQ points lower & with much less time), then the average-intelligence schemers can plot how to throw the entire thing off.I'd say that they should have to have intelligence on the same order of the villain in order to come up with a reliable way to defeat his plan.

A bunch of Int 6 people probably won't be able to find a flaw in the plans of an Int 18 person, except for a brute-force approach that is likely to work whether or not you know their plan:

"Yeah, if we get together a bunch of soldiers and attack his tower while he's off spending three weeks meditating on the Astral Plane, he'll be helpless!"

If a bunch of Int 10 people have an idea for foiling an Int 18 person's plan, there's a good chance that they forgot something important, allowing the Int 18 person to counterfoil their foil. They may think they can stop the villain, but that doesn't mean they're right.

"Ha! Villain! I can defeat your superweapon simply by short-circuiting the main power array! All I have to do is splice together these two wires..."

"OK, Captain Hero, you've got me!" [pushes power to the superweapon to maximum as Captain Hero splices the wires together]

ZAP!

If a bunch of Int 14 people try the same thing, they're a good deal more likely to come up with an effective plan. A team of Int 14 people will be able to spot the 'obvious' pitfalls in their own plan that a single Int 18 villain is likely to notice on the fly while trying to counterfoil them.

Note that 'obvious' is defined relative to the villain's intelligence. To an Int 18 villain, it's likely to be obvious that he can zap Captain Hero by turning on full power while he's holding a pair of bare wires that short-circuit the superweapon.

To an Int 26 villain, it's almost unimaginable that anyone would be such a fool as to build a superweapon without a circuit breaker (such a villain could likely rederive much of Peter's Evil Overlord List from first principles). And he will be able to counterfoil the foiling attempt of Int 18 heroes in much the same way that the Int 18 villain can counterfoil Int 10 heroes.

So I'd agree with many people that it's a bad idea to have a villain vastly more intelligent than any party member. However, as long as there is at least one party member with intelligence on the same order of the villain's (say, within 4-5 points), things should be OK.

Or if there is no such superintelligent person on the heroes' team, they need to excel in some other relevant ability. For example, maybe one of the heroes is so inhumanly quick and skillful that he could perform the "inconceivable" task of defeating the villain's giant henchman. Or maybe the hero is so charismatic that the villain's significant other melts at the sight of them and spills critical details of the plan.

Collin152
2007-09-14, 08:27 PM
I've found going school specialization that chooses to exclude another really powerful school is a good way. I'm particularly fond of BBEG's with nasty enchantment or evocation options. Nothing says 'I will crush your spirit' like a big ol' fireball or dominating the party fighter. Nasty, but at the same time you can avoid some of the 'win button' combonations too.

Also, remember that just because a character has powerful magic and a high int doesn't mean he is wise. Hubris can befall the most powerful of villians. It's a little cliche I'll admit but having the badguy dismiss the party out of hand as no real threat is cliche for a reason.

Finally, as a tweak on the last notion, any really powerful BBEG probably also has other enemies (other parties, other BBEG's) and if the party is signifigantly lower level he may not want to 'waste' his most powerful spells and tricks on them unless they prove to be really dangerous. If Tom the Necromancer spends it all on the party then when Fred the Vile Transmuter comes for his spellbook he's not going to have any good way to defend himself. An alternate version of this is to have the party come on the scene just after Fred and Tom have duked it out and the winner is low on spells.

What about their enchanting arch-nemesis?
There are some who call me... Tim.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-09-14, 08:35 PM
I'd say that they should have to have intelligence on the same order of the villain in order to come up with a reliable way to defeat his plan.

If the plan is related to the villain's field of expertise, true. Perhaps I should elaborate a bit:

A genius BBEW discovers he could bring demon armies into the world by constructing a portal using some new method he developed. He knows everything he needs to about how it operates. Now he just needs the resources to construct.

What is he gonna do, conjure them all out of thin air? No, he needs help, which means he needs to hire (or manipulate) people into getting them for him. Too bad his expertise is in extraplanar portals, not puppeteering.

In such a case, the PCs could find his notes, figure out the connections between the incidents, and then use that to plot a way to manipulate his minions so the entire thing comes crashing down around him. Reasonably, the wizard wouldn't know enough about manipulation to have a backup plan for every monkey wrench the PCs throw at his minions.

What I'm saying is, "Just because you're a genius doesn't mean you're a genius at everything."

illyrus
2007-09-14, 09:00 PM
Skipped ahead to the end with just skimming a few posts to give my suggestion to the OP. Please forgive me if it was brought up in a previous post.

Give the BBEG wizard a weakness that he will vacate what defenses he has and will not retreat from battle if the weakness is brought into play.

An example might be his rebellious daughter who hates magic and he is unwilling to place magic on for fear that he will lose her love. Threatening her will bring him out of his carefully laid defenses. Another example would be a powerful magic item he's willing to risk everything on including his life but he can't carry with him.

Ideally whatever weakness he has will make him somewhat irrational in his attempts to prevent the PCs from taking/destroying it.

Dervag
2007-09-14, 11:45 PM
What is he gonna do, conjure them all out of thin air? No, he needs help, which means he needs to hire (or manipulate) people into getting them for him. Too bad his expertise is in extraplanar portals, not puppeteering.

In such a case, the PCs could find his notes, figure out the connections between the incidents, and then use that to plot a way to manipulate his minions so the entire thing comes crashing down around him. Reasonably, the wizard wouldn't know enough about manipulation to have a backup plan for every monkey wrench the PCs throw at his minions.

What I'm saying is, "Just because you're a genius doesn't mean you're a genius at everything."You're right, although that arguably falls under the category of matching charisma against intelligence. I hadn't thought in terms of specialties, but that's another way of matching your strength in one area against the wizard's strength in another area.


Give the BBEG wizard a weakness that he will vacate what defenses he has and will not retreat from battle if the weakness is brought into play.The trouble with that one is that unless it's handled very skillfully, it can turn into a form of deus ex machina. The villain is irrationally throwing away all his defensive preparations and handicapping himself to fight a weaker enemy. It can be plausible. It can work really well in some cases, but you have to be good at it.

Whereas setting things up so that the PCs can match one of their strengths (infiltration, or manipulating henchmen, or defeating the giant entrusted with guarding something important) against the wizard's strengths (superior planning and more powerful magic) can almost always happen.