You are a "Enter Initiator CLass and Template" in the Dresdenverse, what now?

[GrayDeath]

Inspired by the Wizard Thread, which sadly (in my humble opinion) boils down to "be the best Mortal Everything", lets do it slightly different, less all powerful (and with clearer rules from the start).

You are the Initiator 20 (or Initiator x, one prestige CLass x) of your Choice from D&D or PF.

You may add up to 3 Levels of LA in Form of Templates that would be legal in combination without any Cheese (so for example none that need you to visit certain places, or requirte you to be 3 halves or such ^^) and consider them bought off at your entry.

Everything works EXACTLY as in D&D for you. Everything works on any Dresdenverse being you encounter unless they are :
A: Of a Type that would not work on in D&D/PF Rules
B: So far outside your lague they can simply ignore it (The Mothers, other Gods within their Homes, maybe Mab)
or
C: Someone later on comes up with a counter using DF Universe magic/Supernatural anything.

Things the DF Universe uses on you target your saves as it would if using D&D/PF Rules, but otherwise works as the World is used to.

You know that you will enter another Universe with Different Rules beforehand (say you get the Info early in your levelling days), and you get told a very very vague summaration of the Dresdenverse (the true big Players get mentioned, you know of their outsider problems and that its a modern mostly human society, thats it).


Edit: AGAIN let me repeat: NO CHEESE.
That includes Item Familiars if abused (not if used normally), leadership abuse (noit used normally) and other stuff. If in doubt, assume I am reading everything that could be seen as cheese as such.

Also, you are entering the World some time after Summer Knight, but before Proven Guilty.


What do you choose, why, and most importantly, how will you interact with, and affect, the Wolrd of Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden?

[Sto]

Am I still lvl 20 after my templates and is Necropolitan allowed?

[GrayDeath]

As I wrote, consider tha at most +3 bought off at your Level.

And yes. But no cheese in combining it with Templates it should not be combinable with, just reiterating it. ;)

[Elricaltovilla]

Are you including Pathfinder initiators in this? Because there are a lot of crazy fun things they can do.

[khadgar567]

Are you including Pathfinder initiators in this? Because there are a lot of crazy fun things they can do.
can aegis count as initiator? being aegis 20 can be pretty powerful in dresden verse as free template i get white court vampire thanks. as for the modifications to grab not much

[Elricaltovilla]

can aegis count as initiator? being aegis 20 can be pretty powerful in dresden verse as free template i get white court vampire thanks. as for the modifications to grab not much

I'm not the OP, ask them. I generally count it as an initiator though.

[Quertus]

OK, so, not "me", definitely a D&D character? Well, then, I'll be baffled by technology, and get trampled by a car, or hit by a jet.

Oh, and what's an "initiator"?

[Elricaltovilla]

OK, so, not "me", definitely a D&D character? Well, then, I'll be baffled by technology, and get trampled by a car, or hit by a jet.

Oh, and what's an "initiator"?

That would be any of the three base classes from Tome of Battle, plus their prestige classes (for 3.5) or any of the classes/archetypes/prestige classes/class templates from Path of War or Path of War: Expanded (Plus the Medic and Rajah releases) (for Pathfinder).

It would be very difficult for you to get killed by a car as any level 20 character, but particularly one of these classes given their access to counters.

[Bronk]

Well, as a 20th level initiator, I'd be great at fighting, so that's nice. Since I'm less familiar with all the nuances of initiators, and I'm away from books, all I really know is that I'll have the capacity to take and deal lots of regular damage, and then either add more regular or elemental damage, do sneaky things, or do healing things. There's nothing there that would ruffle the White Court's feathers there.

No equipment has been specified, so I'll assume WBL.

No time has been specified, so probably battles against the Red Court would be the most prominent at first.

The most interesting thing to me here is that I can A: choose how I level, B: choose my templates, and C: there's no stipulation that we can't learn the local magic or, more definitely, teach our own style.

************

With no prior knowledge of the Dresden File books, but with a rundown of the major players and their hangups, I'd choose to be a Crusader/Prestige Bard, with both the half celestial templates and the Seelie Court Fey template.

I'd probably take the leadership feat, bolstered by a charisma item and my bard abilities, so that I can get some local help immediately.

I'd also take the Wild Cohort feat, for some kind of monstrous backup. It would be neat to have a cool steed, but I'd probably go with an intelligent Tressym, a first level option from Sandstorm. We could fly around together, which would be fun.

Finally, I'd take Item Familiar, so that I could have a decent weapon. I'd probably take some sort of Swordbow, with all the bells and whistles.

The templates though... If I take Half Celestial first and Seelie Court Fey second, I would be fey. I could introduce myself to the Summer Court and become a part of it. If I take Half Celestial second, I'd count as an outsider, but I feel like I'd be able to talk to the Angels and see what's up. However, since the angels seem super aloof, and I value having a soul instead of being one, I'd go with ending up fey. Either way, both templates together give my crusader synergistic abilities like extra healing, vernal touch for extra turning, plus flight.

If I can't get into the Summer Court, I'd use my leadership abilities to create my own group as a Freeholding Lord under the Unseelie Accords. I could teach my group the ways of the crusader and/or the bard for extra power, and take on some local wizards and foo dogs as cohorts. I could hire us out as bodyguards, pitch in against battles against the undead or the Denarians, help out the Knights of the Cross in general, and so on. Basically an officially 'good' version of Monoc Securities... only my healthcare would be primo.

In fact, I could also offer up my once per day resurrection SLA to the White and Seelie courts for some extra goodwill.

Also, if I'm not actually stuck at level 20 as in the other thread, I'd take an active role in my new group, going out on missions and so on, so that I could start taking cleric levels, so that I could increase my effectiveness against undead, as well as finally getting the Heal and Regeneration spells.

[Quertus]

That would be any of the three base classes from Tome of Battle, plus their prestige classes (for 3.5) or any of the classes/archetypes/prestige classes/class templates from Path of War or Path of War: Expanded (Plus the Medic and Rajah releases) (for Pathfinder).

It would be very difficult for you to get killed by a car as any level 20 character, but particularly one of these classes given their access to counters.

To be fair, I said "trampled", not "killed".

My point being, a D&D character in a modern world is very much out of their element, and that is going to take center stage in shaping their initial experience, far more than the specifics of the Dresden universe.

For initiators, I've only ever played a Crusader. So, once my character got their feet under themselves, so to speak, they'd probably make a name for themselves at a local hospital. If they didn't get institutionalized for running into traffic, or asking directions to the local Wizard's shop / temple of foo, first.

[Elricaltovilla]

There are so many fun potential options in Path of War stuff to bring to the Dresdenverse. I think that I would probably look at something like a Soul Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker/stalker-archetypes/soul-hunter/) Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker/) to use.

The Soul Hunter's unique Soul Claiming mechanic is what I'm particularly interested in. Unlike the Harbinger, the Soul Hunter's Soul Claiming lasts for as long as I need it to in order to track my claimed target. As long as I can damage them I can track any creature in the Dresdenverse no matter where they go. Wit access to Cursed Razor, Veiled Moon, Elemental Flux (Trait swap) and Chimera Soul (free swap) I am a powerful shapeshifting, elemental blasting, teleporting, curse inflicting badass. I'd focus on expanding my repetoire of maneuvers known and readied. Outside of needing a few key feats (Weapon Finesse, Deadly Agility and Victorious Recovery) I can focus pretty much all my effort on getting access to as many useful maneuvers and stances as I can.

I have access to Clairaudience/clairvoyance, scrying and locate creature as spell like abilities to track my targets as well.

For my race, I'm tempted to pick Elan (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/elan/) as they have no maximum age and can feed themselves indefinitely with their free power point. Slap on pathfinder's Half-Celestial (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/half-celestial/) template for free and enjoy a wide range of useful spell like abilities.

Once I'm in the world and get my bearings, I can take on a role as a fixer or assassin like Kincaid (but way better). I can try to get in good with the fey courts or the wizards but I don't feel the need to tie myself down to any one allegiance. I should be able to set myself up with a fairly comfortable life while slowly teaching worthy pupils the art of initiating maneuvers and possibly passing along the secret of immortality via becoming an Elan to those I think are worthy. I'm sure at some point I'll have to hunt down a failed apprentice or two that betrayed me, resulting in my untimely death that will lead to my last pupil taking up my crusade in order to avenge me. Seems pretty decent overall.

[Nifft]

You are the Initiator 20 (or Initiator x, one prestige CLass x) of your Choice from D&D or PF.

You may add up to 3 Levels of LA in Form of Templates that would be legal in combination without any Cheese (so for example none that need you to visit certain places, or requirte you to be 3 halves or such ^^) and consider them bought off at your entry.
(...)
What do you choose, why, and most importantly, how will you interact with, and affect, the Wolrd of Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden?

Petal (LA +2), with the Dark template (LA +1), Warblade 20.

I am Toot.

[GrayDeath]

can aegis count as initiator? being aegis 20 can be pretty powerful in dresden verse as free template i get white court vampire thanks. as for the modifications to grab not much

I have ... very little Idea what you aim to say.
So let me rephrase my plea from an earlier thread. PLEASE use normal Grammar. It makes you much easier to understand.

if I am guessing correctly, you are saiyng you are applying a "free" White court vampire template?=

Where, if I might ask, do you access that in a D&D world? As the OP clearly states you acquire them early (see "paying them off" , as you cannot pay off something you acquire after leaving the D&D world, yes? ^^

As for Aegis: The Archetypes that get maneuvers, yes. The others, no.


Petal (LA +2), with the Dark template (LA +1), Warblade 20.

I am Toot.

Love it. :)



In general, pelase read exactly: No Cheese. At all. That includes using WBL to become a semicaster or combining classes with the Initiator that MAKE you a caster (Say Ur Priest) or other things that change the premise.

I shoudl have remembered to make that unmistakably clear from the get go.

OP has been edited to clarify.

[Elricaltovilla]

I have ... very little Idea what you aim to say.
So let me rephrase my plea from an earlier thread. PLEASE use normal Grammar. It makes you much easier to udnerstand.

if I am guessing correctly, youa re saiyng you are applying a "free" WEhite court vampire template?=

Wherre, if I mjight ask, do you access that in a D&D world= As the OP clearly states youa cquire them early (see "paying them off" , as you cannot pay off something you acquire after leaving the D&D world, yes? ^^



Love it. :)



In general, pelase read exactly: No Cheese. At all. That includes using WBL to become a semicaster or combining classes with the Initiator that MAKE you a caster (Say Ur Priest) or other things that change the premise.

I shoudl have remembered to make that unmistakably clear from the get go.

OP has been edited to clarify.

If you're going to complain to khadgar567 about his grammar (as I understand it, English is not his first language) maybe take the time to proofread your own stuff?

[GrayDeath]

Point.

Sigh, I should stop posting while really, really tired. ^^

Also, English is not my first language either, and I am not demanding anybody to have flawless English (far from it, really), but using some basic grammar to make what you post easier to understand that above post is simple politeness, no?

Corrected. :)

[Particle_Man]

For initiators, I've only ever played a Crusader. So, once my character got their feet under themselves, so to speak, they'd probably make a name for themselves at a local hospital. If they didn't get institutionalized for running into traffic, or asking directions to the local Wizard's shop / temple of foo, first.

Don't you have to hit enemies that are a credible threat to you or your friends in order to activate most of your healing powers? That hospital would need to have a Fight Club in its basement.

That said, if one is feeling altruistic, a swordsage 20 could use the Flame's Blessing stance to be immune to fire damage. So I assume that this, plus some Shadow Jaunt in case you get trapped, would make you one kick ass firefighter.

[noob]

Vecna blooded and shadow creature.
You can not be seen and you can not be divinated.
Or alternatively taking a template that gives slas is a good idea even if is quite close to becoming a caster(such as taking the template giving you access to the Resurrection spell).

[PhantasyPen]

Okay, let's see. Well for starter's I think I'd go with a Half-Song Dragon Human (Wanted half-celestial but that's LA+4 :smallfrown:) As for class, I think it'd be fun to go Warblade 15/Master of Nine 5 just to try things out for once. Hmm, aside from taking the Dragon Breath feat at level 6, I'd probably build myself around the idea of being some kind of powerful military leader (complete with Leadership obv.) I'd like to take some Diplomancy buffing feats if I have anything left over after building for the Mo9 prereqs. Cohort would probably be some kind of support class, probably either a Dragon Shaman or Dragonfire Adept just to keep with the theme.

Hmm, being set between Summer Knights and Proven Guilty gives a span of three years to work with, right at the beginning of the war with the Red Court. I'd probably contract myself and my followers out to the White Council as a mercenary team honestly, using that as a way to build power and influence among the mystical factions.

[Knaight]

OK, so, not "me", definitely a D&D character? Well, then, I'll be baffled by technology, and get trampled by a car, or hit by a jet.

Jets don't just land in unsecured areas people wander around all the time, and I'm pretty sure a D&D character would be familiar with the concept of large moving objects and why you shouldn't get hit by them, even if cars might instinctively remind them more of a boulder trap than a wagon.

[Bronk]

Okay, let's see. Well for starter's I think I'd go with a Half-Song Dragon Human (Wanted half-celestial but that's LA+4 :smallfrown:)

The template was updated in the Book of Exalted Deeds to be level dependent... at level 20, it's only +2 LA.

The petal from before is also a +2 LA, but it's cohort LA instead of regular LA. It's cool that the OP allowed it though, because petals are fun!

[GrayDeath]

There are much worse things than Toot on steroids (I retain the right to shoot Petal down, like everything, if its covered in Cheddar though ^^). And many less fun ones, so ...yeah.

[khadgar567]

There are much worse things than Toot on steroids (I retain the right to shoot Petal down, like everything, if its covered in Cheddar though ^^). And many less fun ones, so ...yeah.
well only problem in my build is white court vampire and i technicly dont need it but did inevideblys LA adjustments are legal for this thing.

[Nifft]

The petal from before is also a +2 LA, but it's cohort LA instead of regular LA. It's cool that the OP allowed it though, because petals are fun!

... and Toot is 200% cohort material.

[liquidformat]

I'd choose to be a Crusader/Prestige Bard, with both the half celestial templates and the Seelie Court Fey template

um your LA is way above the +3 that can be waved.

Also point of note, I really don't see much of a difference between the Dresden holy sword bearers and d&d/pf Initiators so the only real reasons you would standout is because of understanding and using the d&d rules to your advantage and the fact that level 20 is decently high. Though Mab and other entities that are clearly epic level would still lay the smack down on you...

Anyways I think I would go with a shadow creature shifter saint warblade 10/primeval 10. Not set on the form yet maybe a Cave Triceratops/Cave Ankylosaurus or dire puma if I don't want to focus on defense. I would also go VOP if that isn't overly cheesy. This may not be the most powerful build out there but it would be cool, interesting, and be able to survive pretty much anything you throw at it while dealing out some nasty damage. Particularly in the Dresden world filled with evil mages the red court, evil fey, and what have you being a 'celestial' were-monster makes you quite the scary foe.

If we were allowed to take a level dip into barbarian it would jump up quite a bit in power.

[Bronk]

um your LA is way above the +3 that can be waved.

+2 for the updated Half Celestial template from BoED, +1 for Seelie Court Fey.

[liquidformat]

+2 for the updated Half Celestial template from BoED, +1 for Seelie Court Fey.

Is that PF, I haven't heard of that in 3.5?...

[Nifft]

+2 for the updated Half Celestial template from BoED, +1 for Seelie Court Fey.


Is that PF, I haven't heard of that in 3.5?...

@Bronk - if you mean this:


https://image.ibb.co/crejXp/Screen_Shot_2018_08_30_at_12_49_35_PM.png (https://ibb.co/nkntQ9)


... then you ought to be aware that it's (a) NOT an update, but rather a variant rule; and (b) it's only LA +2 for 1-2 HD, while the topic of the thread is being a 20 HD martial initiator.

[Bronk]

@Bronk - if you mean this:


https://image.ibb.co/crejXp/Screen_Shot_2018_08_30_at_12_49_35_PM.png (https://ibb.co/nkntQ9)


... then you ought to be aware that it's (a) NOT an update, but rather a variant rule; and (b) it's only LA +2 for 1-2 HD, while the topic of the thread is being a 20 HD martial initiator.

Thanks for the clarification about that being a variant rule, it will need to be used with DM approval. However, for our initiators, 20 is the total HD, while the base creature HD, unless you're playing a race with RHD, is 1, which is called out in your snip.

[Nifft]

Thanks for the clarification about that being a variant rule, it will need to be used with DM approval. However, for our initiators, 20 is the total HD, while the base creature HD, unless you're playing a race with RHD, is 1, which is called out in your snip.

The author of that variant section seems to not understand that class levels are HD.

Just to be totally clear on that topic: class levels are HD.


From here it seems like you're trying to use poor editing as if it were a rule update. If so, that's rather disingenuous.

[Bronk]

The author of that variant section seems to not understand that class levels are HD.

Just to be totally clear on that topic: class levels are HD.


From here it seems like you're trying to use poor editing as if it were a rule update. If so, that's rather disingenuous.

Class levels are HD. But they aren't the HD of the base creature, keyword base. That's the creature before it takes class levels, etc. This isn't bad editing, it's spelled out clearly, and follows the rules just fine.

It is refreshing to see this argued backwards like this though! Usually the argument people make is that the class HD wouldn't count to activate SLAs, so that's pretty cool.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm starting to think that the Template thing is stealing focus from the Initiator thing. Unfortunately in 3.5 there are really only 3 classes to pick from and the build rules provided preclude the use of two of the more powerful and interesting PRCs (Jade Phoenix Mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator).

You have more options in Pathfinder because Path of War just plain old has more material to pull from, but even then the build restrictions make it difficult to use PrCs like Awakened Blade (Really only works for PsyWar or Soulknife if the High Psionics Variant is used), Battle Templar (Warpriest or Inquisitor only because you can't take non-initiator levels) or Bladecaster (Alchemist or Investigator only (maybe) and they don't really benefit from bladecaster levels).

You're kind of left with two real build options, either you stick to the mostly mundane disciplines and classes and are an impressive but not really stand out guy to have in a scrape or you pick up as many supernatural disciplines as you reasonably can and then you become someone who rivals the highest levels of magic a White Council wizard can achieve with freeform shapeshifting, medium range teleportation, highly versatile blasting, quasi-magical healing, and powerful but short term curses. Of course even with all of that, the guy with a sniper rifle is better at killing most supernatural threats than you are (unless you use Hunting Zephyr, because then you never, ever miss).

[noob]

I'm starting to think that the Template thing is stealing focus from the Initiator thing. Unfortunately in 3.5 there are really only 3 classes to pick from and the build rules provided preclude the use of two of the more powerful and interesting PRCs (Jade Phoenix Mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator).

You have more options in Pathfinder because Path of War just plain old has more material to pull from, but even then the build restrictions make it difficult to use PrCs like Awakened Blade (Really only works for PsyWar or Soulknife if the High Psionics Variant is used), Battle Templar (Warpriest or Inquisitor only because you can't take non-initiator levels) or Bladecaster (Alchemist or Investigator only (maybe) and they don't really benefit from bladecaster levels).

You're kind of left with two real build options, either you stick to the mostly mundane disciplines and classes and are an impressive but not really stand out guy to have in a scrape or you pick up as many supernatural disciplines as you reasonably can and then you become someone who rivals the highest levels of magic a White Council wizard can achieve with freeform shapeshifting, medium range teleportation, highly versatile blasting, quasi-magical healing, and powerful but short term curses. Of course even with all of that, the guy with a sniper rifle is better at killing most supernatural threats than you are (unless you use Hunting Zephyr, because then you never, ever miss).
who says you are not allowed to diplomance people to get those snipers on your side?

[GrayDeath]

well only problem in my build is white court vampire and i technicly dont need it but did inevideblys LA adjustments are legal for this thing.

Again I am guessing at what exactly you are saying, but well...

No, the regular, WotC/Paizo LA`s are the ones used.
And no, nothing InDresdenverse is allowed as template.

As for the Half Celestial variant Rule: Dont use it. Use the regular one.


I'm starting to think that the Template thing is stealing focus from the Initiator thing. Unfortunately in 3.5 there are really only 3 classes to pick from and the build rules provided preclude the use of two of the more powerful and interesting PRCs (Jade Phoenix Mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator).

You have more options in Pathfinder because Path of War just plain old has more material to pull from, but even then the build restrictions make it difficult to use PrCs like Awakened Blade (Really only works for PsyWar or Soulknife if the High Psionics Variant is used), Battle Templar (Warpriest or Inquisitor only because you can't take non-initiator levels) or Bladecaster (Alchemist or Investigator only (maybe) and they don't really benefit from bladecaster levels).

You're kind of left with two real build options, either you stick to the mostly mundane disciplines and classes and are an impressive but not really stand out guy to have in a scrape or you pick up as many supernatural disciplines as you reasonably can and then you become someone who rivals the highest levels of magic a White Council wizard can achieve with freeform shapeshifting, medium range teleportation, highly versatile blasting, quasi-magical healing, and powerful but short term curses. Of course even with all of that, the guy with a sniper rifle is better at killing most supernatural threats than you are (unless you use Hunting Zephyr, because then you never, ever miss).

You also have options in between, but even if you did not, mixing schools and approaches to the World SHOULD allow for enough variation.


who says you are not allowed to diplomance people to get those snipers on your side?

Or that. Until the Council thinks youa re using Mind Magic ^^

[Elricaltovilla]

who says you are not allowed to diplomance people to get those snipers on your side?

That has nothing to do with the point I was making. It's not about whether or not you can get the snipers to help you, it's about which one would be more effective at killing a wizard. Harry Dresden and several other characters all state that a good sniper is the most effective wizard killer around because their bullets shoot too fast for any wizard to react and utilize countermeasures.

[liquidformat]

how about something like goliath mineral warrior warblade/hulking hurler and you just throw giant rocks or building at the wizards?

[Bronk]

As for the Half Celestial variant Rule: Dont use it. Use the regular one.


Bummer. Then my plan would change a bit: Instead of base human crusader, I'd go with a Dark (+1 LA) Half fey (+2 LA) Star Elf Swordsage. That would give me a large range of class abilities, a number of useful SLAs (some of which I'd need to keep the White Council in the dark about), increased stealthiness, winged flight, stat boosts, cold resistance, immunity to enchantments, and the ghost touch ability at night.

I'd take the Item Familiar feat to get a decent weapon, the Dragon Cohort feat to snag a song dragon as a mage/secretary/backup singer, leadership to pick up a golden protector lammasu healer/steed and finally Wild Cohort to pick up a Tressym to be my cool intelligent flying cat scout/sidekick.

I'd try to make introductions with the main characters or the Seelie Court, and I'd still try to use Leadership to make my own group, but if that didn't work out, I might join up with Monoc Securities.

I'd also do all this under an assumed name to avoid any True Name based shenanigans.