Advice for a half-orc charisma fighter

[Grimmonsoon]

EDIT: Solved, thank you!

[MilkmanDanimal]

If you want Charisma along with melee capabilities and general utility, why not go Hexblade, or multiclass into Hexblade and a bard of some sort? Swords for more melee utility, Lore for general utility. Don't need huge STR as you'll be wearing medium armor, but you can then put those points elsewhere.

[mephnick]

Fighter 1 / Swords Bard X

You can sword and shield with a battleaxe, dual-wield battleaxes or forgo all that boring crap and use blade flourishes with a maul. That's something people won't expect to see.

[Grimmonsoon]

If you want Charisma along with melee capabilities and general utility, why not go Hexblade, or multiclass into Hexblade and a bard of some sort? Swords for more melee utility, Lore for general utility. Don't need huge STR as you'll be wearing medium armor, but you can then put those points elsewhere.

Not a bad idea, but we already have a warlock, and his relationship with his patron is pretty central to the plot so I don't want to steal his thunder. Mechanically it makes sense, but it has to work for the roleplay as well.
As for the STR thing, since half-orcs get a +2 I'd rather lean into it and make DEX a dump stat, otherwise this concept is going to suffer from MAD a bit. That means I'd be able to get an AC of 15 at the most.



Fighter 1 / Swords Bard X
You can sword and shield with a battleaxe, dual-wield battleaxes or forgo all that boring crap and use blade flourishes with a maul. That's something people won't expect to see.

Is college of swords Xanathars? My DM only wants us to use PHB and SCAG classes unfortunately. Is it overall better than valor bard then?

[Unoriginal]

You could make him a pure Fighter. Just pick up CHA skills.

I assume for the half-orc reveal you will be going for the always-wear-an-helmet trope?


That means I'd be able to get an AC of 15 at the most.

You'll have 18 with your Plate Armor, soon enough.

Hell, you can get heavy armor for an AC above 15 at character creation, if you want to.


Is it overall better than valor bard then?

It's not better for everything, but they don't cover the same things. Valor Bard is more "buff your friends" while Sword Bard is more "buff yourself"

[nickl_2000]

Fighter 1/ Sorcerer X. Focus on Strength as your main stat with charisma being around 14 or so. At level 5 take spell sniper for Booming Blade from 10 feet with a reach weapon. You get shield for when you need it and can twin or quicken spells. Focus on spells that don't need a DC (haste, greater invisibility, shield, absorb element, feather fall, sleep, enlarge/reduce, mirror image, etc). You can always change slots to spell points to twin booming blade more often.

At further levels (if you get there you can take GWM) or boost stats.

[denthor]

Most groups need a pure healer.

Focus on that give it attitude and a very large weapon.

[Grimmonsoon]

You could make him a pure Fighter. Just pick up CHA skills.
I assume for the half-orc reveal you will be going for the always-wear-an-helmet trope?
You'll have 18 with your Plate Armor, soon enough.
Hell, you can get heavy armor for an AC above 15 at character creation, if you want to.
It's not better for everything, but they don't cover the same things. Valor Bard is more "buff your friends" while Sword Bard is more "buff yourself"

Ahaha, you know it. Honestly I think the players will figure out he's a half-orc pretty early on (as soon as I surreptitiously add some dice to his critical damage rolls) but the characters won't know. No other plot points to angst over - no gods, no pacts, no higher powers - just him and his heritage.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but he can't wear plate without being proficient in heavy can he? Which he only gets if he starts as a fighter or takes the heavily armoured trope.

As for pure fighter, my main worry is that I'll get bored in combat. A character that can basically only hit something is pretty dull to me, and I'm definitely never going to hit things better than the paladin, so I'd rather play a class that can do other things. Maybe valor bard to buff the others would be better, and suit the concept a little more. I can't play swords anyway if it's Xanathars, so it's between valor and lore.

[Nidgit]

Are you positive you want high Charisma? Your party looks like it could probably use a Cleric and you'd make a pretty decent one of those too.

Seconding Fighter 1/Valor Bard X otherwise.

[Grimmonsoon]

Are you positive you want high Charisma? Your party looks like it could probably use a Cleric and you'd make a pretty decent one of those too.

Seconding Fighter 1/Valor Bard X otherwise.


Believe me, our paladin loves being the healer and tank of the group. She can still nova damage as well, mind you. We also have a druid who likes healing. On top of that, our warlock is a tactical genius and always puts the battle in our favour, so we almost never actually need to heal. I had considered war cleric, but in the end religious characters aren't my jam.

I'm not sure how well this came across in my first post, but I personally want to make the fighter/bard thing work rather than turning to other classes. I basically wanted to be a purple dragon knight but mechanically they're seriously lacklustre, so the idea is to make a multi-class that does about the same job. I'm mostly unsure as to whether to start in fighter and go bard (and then, should I try to get 3 levels in fighter? should I go valor bard to be better in a fight, or lore bard to be better at basically everything else?) or go pure valor bard and try to get heavily armored at level 4 (the +1 STR as well makes it feel like less of a waste).

[Nidgit]

Believe me, our paladin loves being the healer and tank of the group. She can still nova damage as well, mind you. We also have a druid who likes healing. On top of that, our warlock is a tactical genius and always puts the battle in our favour, so we almost never actually need to heal. I had considered war cleric, but in the end religious characters aren't my jam.

I'm not sure how well this came across in my first post, but I personally want to make the fighter/bard thing work rather than turning to other classes. I basically wanted to be a purple dragon knight but mechanically they're seriously lacklustre, so the idea is to make a multi-class that does about the same job. I'm mostly unsure as to whether to start in fighter and go bard (and then, should I try to get 3 levels in fighter? should I go valor bard to be better in a fight, or lore bard to be better at basically everything else?) or go pure valor bard and try to get heavily armored at level 4 (the +1 STR as well makes it feel like less of a waste).
No worries, I get it :) good to know you're set on that front.

I think what level you'd be starting at makes a difference. If you're expecting to come in at Level 7+, going Fighter 1/ Valor Bard X makes perfect sense since you're not delaying much. Assuming you get at least 6 levels of Valor Bard to start, Fighter 2 makes a fair amount of sense for Action Surge. I probably wouldn't go for Fighter 3 unless your DM allows Cavalier from Xanathar's, which would fit well as a protective Fighter. Champion doesn't help your build out that much and EK should only be for if you want extra access to a few spells. Bard can cover everything else.

If you're starting below that and need to play catch-up, going pure Valor Bard seems fine to me.

[Galadhrim]

I'm not sure how well this came across in my first post, but I personally want to make the fighter/bard thing work rather than turning to other classes. I basically wanted to be a purple dragon knight but mechanically they're seriously lacklustre, so the idea is to make a multi-class that does about the same job. I'm mostly unsure as to whether to start in fighter and go bard (and then, should I try to get 3 levels in fighter? should I go valor bard to be better in a fight, or lore bard to be better at basically everything else?) or go pure valor bard and try to get heavily armored at level 4 (the +1 STR as well makes it feel like less of a waste).

If you are set on heavy armor and bard, then I would think the one level fighter is better for you for two reasons. You get con saves which you will need as a bard in melee combat. Most of the best bard spells are concentration. Second, I think one level behind on spells is a cheaper price to pay than giving up an ASI for heavy armor. Valor vs lore comes down to where you want your strengths to be. Lore seems to fit much better with your idea of utility and also with your image of a charismatic half orc as you get 3 additional skills which you can use to round out whatever charisma skills you want. The downside to that is you are only making single attacks, so as a melee combatant you will be somewhat lacking. It seemed like from your post melee damage, while important, was not as important as the rest of your concept.

[Grimmonsoon]

No worries, I get it :) good to know you're set on that front.

I think what level you'd be starting at makes a difference. If you're expecting to come in at Level 7+, going Fighter 1/ Valor Bard X makes perfect sense since you're not delaying much. Assuming you get at least 6 levels of Valor Bard to start, Fighter 2 makes a fair amount of sense for Action Surge. I probably wouldn't go for Fighter 3 unless your DM allows Cavalier from Xanathar's, which would fit well as a protective Fighter. Champion doesn't help your build out that much and EK should only be for if you want extra access to a few spells. Bard can cover everything else.

If you're starting below that and need to play catch-up, going pure Valor Bard seems fine to me.

I'd be coming in at level 4-ish, so 1 level fighter, 3 in bard maybe? Thansk for the advice! Champion was the one thing I was umming and ahhing over as crit in a 19 sounds much tastier when your half-orc does extra crit damage, but it sounds as though it's not worth the delay in bard features.



If you are set on heavy armor and bard, then I would think the one level fighter is better for you for two reasons. You get con saves which you will need as a bard in melee combat. Most of the best bard spells are concentration. Second, I think one level behind on spells is a cheaper price to pay than giving up an ASI for heavy armor. Valor vs lore comes down to where you want your strengths to be. Lore seems to fit much better with your idea of utility and also with your image of a charismatic half orc as you get 3 additional skills which you can use to round out whatever charisma skills you want. The downside to that is you are only making single attacks, so as a melee combatant you will be somewhat lacking. It seemed like from your post melee damage, while important, was not as important as the rest of your concept.

I think I mostly just want the heavy armour so I can ditch DEX altogether. I'm a little worried about this character needing to be good at everything. Honestly CHA is usually the go-to dump stat, but when I start leaving that behind to focuses on DEX/WIS/whatever it feels like I'm letting go of the character concept as well.

Single melee attacks is a pain I'll admit, but even valor bards don't get it until level 6 (so with a multiclass fighter, 7 levels in) so I feel like I might just have to resign myself to not being that good in a fight. But then, for a knightly type who makes a point of purging orcs from the world, maybe I should make him more overtly combat focused. Decisions decisions...

[Nidgit]

Half-Orc Champion 3 basically adds an average of half a point of damage to each hit compared to just straight Half-Orc. Maybe worth revisiting if you get a magic weapon down the line that adds extra damage dice but very probably not worth delaying Bard right now.

Flavor thought: perhaps your character is particularly well-versed in ballads or laments about orcish conflicts and sings them during battle?

[Lunali]

1) He CANNOT be a paladin, though I'm aware that's basically what I'm trying to play. We already have a paladin and I don't want to step on her toes, and besides I don't want a holy feel

Since there are other reasons you don't want to be a paladin, this probably won't change your mind, but I wanted to point out that paladins are not necessarily religious. Religion is far more likely to give rise to the strength of conviction required for the oaths, but is not essential to being a paladin.

[djreynolds]

Strength based rogue/fighter
You need a 13 in dex.
Grab expertise in athletics and stealth
Grab Shield master
Grab expertise later on in persuasion and intimidation.
Plenty of feats, uncanny dodge is very tanky.

Good luck

[Unoriginal]

Ahaha, you know it. Honestly I think the players will figure out he's a half-orc pretty early on (as soon as I surreptitiously add some dice to his critical damage rolls) but the characters won't know. No other plot points to angst over - no gods, no pacts, no higher powers - just him and his heritage.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but he can't wear plate without being proficient in heavy can he? Which he only gets if he starts as a fighter or takes the heavily armoured trope.

As for pure fighter, my main worry is that I'll get bored in combat. A character that can basically only hit something is pretty dull to me, and I'm definitely never going to hit things better than the paladin, so I'd rather play a class that can do other things. Maybe valor bard to buff the others would be better, and suit the concept a little more. I can't play swords anyway if it's Xanathars, so it's between valor and lore.

There is no reason why you can't hit things as well or better than a Paladin.

If you want more diverse actions as a Fighter, try Battlemaster or Eldritch Knight maybe?

[Schopy]

If you want more diverse actions as a Fighter, try Battlemaster or Eldritch Knight maybe?

Depending on how flexible your DM is, you could try asking him, if you could use CHA instead of INT as your Spellcasting attribute. Change the Schools of Magic to Enchantment and... hmm... Illusion(?) maybe.

Any potential later multiclassing to CHA-classes would have to be evaluated separatly.

[Unoriginal]

I suppose Unearthed Arcana are out, too?

[Grimmonsoon]

UA is absolutely out. My DM is wonderful - unfortunately, he's fairly inflexible. It's nothing personal, but if he allowed me to chop and change whatever he'd have to allow the rest of the group to do it as well, and I don't think he's willing to do that. As I said, nothing outside of PHB and SCAG.

To be honest, the amount of suggestions for anything but fighter/bard are making me think that mechanically it's just not sound enough for what I want. The trouble is that I need to get across his hatred of orcs and ability to stand toe-to-toe with them (so he needs to be good in melee) but classes that can only use the attack action (even if they hit like a truck) are inherently dull to play, to me. Eldritch Knight is an option (and I've actually always wanted to play one) but again, it feels like it's moving away from the character concept I had in mind. He needs to be charismatic, not intelligent. Namely, he needs to be reeeally good at convincing people he's just a plain ol' human under that armour. I can do that via roleplay instead of stats, but the stats would help.

Hence, I have the sinking feeling I just need to play him as a paladin. Which I can't do in this campaign. I'm a bit stumped.


EDIT: actually, I remember DM saying UA ranger was allowed because the vanilla class is so weak. I play a vanilla/monster slayer ranger a different game and find it a little dull sometimes, but the UA version looks a little more fun so... maybe hunter conclave would be an option? Again though, I'd rather he was charismatic than wise.

[mrumsey]

Maybe Rogue or Fighter/Rogue? The Skills could easily make up for a lake of raw-charisma when it comes to disguise (and expertise is fantastic).
Expertise could also be used with Athletics to beat them at their own game (Wrestling, I guess....).

You could flavor sneak-attack as group-attack (fighting with comrades > fighting on your own might alone).

Not everyone with the rogue class needs to be a rogue.

[Unoriginal]

UA is absolutely out. My DM is wonderful - unfortunately, he's fairly inflexible. It's nothing personal, but if he allowed me to chop and change whatever he'd have to allow the rest of the group to do it as well, and I don't think he's willing to do that. As I said, nothing outside of PHB and SCAG.

To be honest, the amount of suggestions for anything but fighter/bard are making me think that mechanically it's just not sound enough for what I want. The trouble is that I need to get across his hatred of orcs and ability to stand toe-to-toe with them (so he needs to be good in melee) but classes that can only use the attack action (even if they hit like a truck) are inherently dull to play, to me.

Well, for one, if your concept is to be a melee character, but you find melee characters dull, maybe the concept isn't something you like in the first place.

Second: a Fighter 1/Valor Bard X for the rest wouldn't "only use the attack action". It'd be able to do a lot of things, in combat as well as out.



Eldritch Knight is an option (and I've actually always wanted to play one) but again, it feels like it's moving away from the character concept I had in mind. He needs to be charismatic, not intelligent. Namely, he needs to be reeeally good at convincing people he's just a plain ol' human under that armour. I can do that via roleplay instead of stats, but the stats would help.

Nothing stopping you from making an EK with a lot of Charisma.




Hence, I have the sinking feeling I just need to play him as a paladin. Which I can't do in this campaign. I'm a bit stumped.

Alright, here's my proposal.

Like mrumsey said, play a Rogue. It'll let you have as many CHA proficiencies as you want (or near), as well as several other tricks. It still works with STR rather than DEX. And as soon as you can, you take the Magic Initiate feat and then you either take Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade (or both) as cantrip, and maybe Shield or Mage Armor as your 1rst lvl spell, using CHA as your casting stat.

The Assassin Rogue subclass even has a feature that'd allow you to make your identity basically unrecognizable.

[Grimmonsoon]

Well, for one, if your concept is to be a melee character, but you find melee characters dull, maybe the concept isn't something you like in the first place.

A fair comment. I get antsy with builds that can only really attack in combat and have no other options, but since squishy classes are always my go-to, I'm trying to break the mould a bit. Fighter 1/Valor Bard could work as I think they get some interesting spells, and also how great would the knightly version of vicious mockery be. EK is also an option, but something about it doesn't resonate properly with the character, to me.



Alright, here's my proposal.

Like mrumsey said, play a Rogue. It'll let you have as many CHA proficiencies as you want (or near), as well as several other tricks. It still works with STR rather than DEX. And as soon as you can, you take the Magic Initiate feat and then you either take Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade (or both) as cantrip, and maybe Shield or Mage Armor as your 1rst lvl spell, using CHA as your casting stat.

The Assassin Rogue subclass even has a feature that'd allow you to make your identity basically unrecognizable.

Hmm... now that I hadn't actually considered. I think rogue I think DEX, but you're right that STR rogues can work just fine, and the decent CON score from half-orcs would offset their squishy hit dice. And assassins do the mega damage, while being useful outside of combat. Maybe this is the way to go, instead of trying to be a spellcaster as well?

[JeffreyGator]

If you less concerned about multi-attack, lore bard brings maximum utility.

To increase your attacks as a lore bard with SCAG options, you might want to somehow grab a melee cantrip from EK, a level of sorc, bard secrets or magic initiate.


Most of these options also lets you get shield.

[Citan]

UA is absolutely out. My DM is wonderful - unfortunately, he's fairly inflexible. It's nothing personal, but if he allowed me to chop and change whatever he'd have to allow the rest of the group to do it as well, and I don't think he's willing to do that. As I said, nothing outside of PHB and SCAG.

To be honest, the amount of suggestions for anything but fighter/bard are making me think that mechanically it's just not sound enough for what I want. The trouble is that I need to get across his hatred of orcs and ability to stand toe-to-toe with them (so he needs to be good in melee) but classes that can only use the attack action (even if they hit like a truck) are inherently dull to play, to me. Eldritch Knight is an option (and I've actually always wanted to play one) but again, it feels like it's moving away from the character concept I had in mind. He needs to be charismatic, not intelligent. Namely, he needs to be reeeally good at convincing people he's just a plain ol' human under that armour. I can do that via roleplay instead of stats, but the stats would help.

Hence, I have the sinking feeling I just need to play him as a paladin. Which I can't do in this campaign. I'm a bit stumped.


EDIT: actually, I remember DM saying UA ranger was allowed because the vanilla class is so weak. I play a vanilla/monster slayer ranger a different game and find it a little dull sometimes, but the UA version looks a little more fun so... maybe hunter conclave would be an option? Again though, I'd rather he was charismatic than wise.
Hi! ;)

I wonder why you would get this feeling.
Read thread in diagonal, but seemed to me there were several solid suggestions. :)

You could still go Battlemaster and pick different manoeuvers to complement by the way. Besides that...

Honestly mix however you want between Fighter (Battlemaster or Eldricht Knight) and Bard (Valor / Swords / Lore).
Since you want to play as a "charismatic martial", I'd say Extra Attack is in order.
Because of that, I'd also tend to suggest something like a Battlemaster Fighter 3 / Swords Bard 6.
But you could also go plain Eldricht Knight, pick 3 levels of Bard for some utility, Jack of All Trades, Expertise and archetype feature, and cope with long-rest Bardic Inspiration.

Or even just be a plain Fighter (whatever archetype) that happens to be skilled in many things (Skilled), provide various good things to facilitate adventuring (Ritual Caster: Wizard) and otherwise help everyone keep strong against adversity (Inspiring Leader).

[Galadhrim]

Hmm... now that I hadn't actually considered. I think rogue I think DEX, but you're right that STR rogues can work just fine, and the decent CON score from half-orcs would offset their squishy hit dice. And assassins do the mega damage, while being useful outside of combat. Maybe this is the way to go, instead of trying to be a spellcaster as well?

Assassins sometimes do mega damage, but if you are playing a str rogue in heavy armor, your opportunities for assassinate will likely be few and far between. Why not look at arcane trickster instead? It will have some spell casting to give you some options, which you seem to enjoy. You will have plenty of skills to boost your charisma skills, and you can certainly stand toe to toe in combat in heavy armor with rogue's survivability. They are one of the tankiest classes out there. Your only down side is you still have to get heavy armor, which will likely require that fighter dip, which is great because it gives you a fighting style as well. Take a look at the iron scoundrel guide which give excellent tips on this multilclass.

Alternatively you could take a single level in war cleric, which would help out your melee some and even give you a pseudo extra attack a few times a day if you missed your sneak attack damage. I know you don't want to play a religious character, but a war cleric could simply be dedicated to wiping out orcs as his religious charge and pretty much ignore the god otherwise.

[Grimmonsoon]

Assassins sometimes do mega damage, but if you are playing a str rogue in heavy armor, your opportunities for assassinate will likely be few and far between. Why not look at arcane trickster instead? It will have some spell casting to give you some options, which you seem to enjoy. You will have plenty of skills to boost your charisma skills, and you can certainly stand toe to toe in combat in heavy armor with rogue's survivability. They are one of the tankiest classes out there. Your only down side is you still have to get heavy armor, which will likely require that fighter dip, which is great because it gives you a fighting style as well. Take a look at the iron scoundrel guide which give excellent tips on this multilclass.

Alternatively you could take a single level in war cleric, which would help out your melee some and even give you a pseudo extra attack a few times a day if you missed your sneak attack damage. I know you don't want to play a religious character, but a war cleric could simply be dedicated to wiping out orcs as his religious charge and pretty much ignore the god otherwise.


I've looked into it a bit and yeah, assassin doesn't look like the best option - too hampered by making DEX a dump stat sadly. Mastermind looks alright though - help as a bonus action and some deception mechanics to help with the fluff. It's not very showy, but I feel rogue's best features come from the base class rather than the subclasses.

That said, arcane tricksters are awesome! I should know, that's what I'm actually currently playing in this campaign :cool: But for that reason I'd rather this guy (who is a replacement if current character dies) wasn't an AT. I looked at that iron scoundrel guide though; while I'm not sure it's quite what I'm after, a shield master who frequently knocks people prone is an intriguing concept.

I'll admit, that dip into war cleric is tempting. Fighter 1 (or 2 for action surge) / war cleric 1 / rogue x maybe?