Removing a cantrip to improve multiclassiing diversity. What do you think?

[Man_Over_Game]

I was looking at the multiclassing trends, and a lot of people go Fighter or some other martial class, usually because of the Armor proficiencies.

My philosophy on this is that:


Something is underpowered if, when given a choice, the option is almost never chosen. (Control Flames)
Something is overpowered if, when given a choice, the option is almost always chosen. (Eldritch Blast)
Something is balanced if, when given a choice, is chosen because of circumstantial reasons. (Frostbite)


And in this instance, when Multiclassing is considered, starting as a martial class is considered overpowered if only because it's the only viable option.

To counter this, I was thinking, what if one of the initial cantrips of main casters was considered a "starting proficiency", meaning it's something you don't get post level 1.



Would this incentivize players to stick to a caster at level 1, to diversify multiclass builds?

What's your opinion?

[LudicSavant]

Would this incentivize players to stick to a caster at level 1, to diversify multiclass builds?

It'd help a little, but probably not that much. Think of it this way: Say you get 3 cantrips, and they're Guidance, Sacred Flame, and Thaumaturgy. If you get 2 instead, and you're optimizing, Guidance isn't the one that's gonna go out the window. You lose a little versatility, but not much raw power.

If you don't want players to worry about picking multiclasses in the "correct" order, consider this:

"When Multiclassing, You may retroactively decide which class was "first" (determining your good saves, first level HP, etc). This is to avoid penalizing players for taking classes in the "wrong" order for story reasons, as well as for some of the game design reasons to why Con bonuses to hp are retroactive."

[ad_hoc]

Something is underpowered if, when given a choice, the option is almost never chosen. (Control Flames)
Something is overpowered if, when given a choice, the option is almost always chosen. (Eldritch Blast)
Something is balanced if, when given a choice, is chosen because of circumstantial reasons. (Frostbite)



Sort of.

There is usually a lot of group think involved as well as erroneous thinking. Esp. in a game that is both complex and non-competitive like D&D. In a competitive game that people take seriously the good strategies are discovered as people win with them. Arguments are settled as the people who win must know what they're doing.

Not so with D&D.

Even in those competitive games there are usually surprises as well. A meta will develop where people believe in certain truisms only to be overturned as the next great competitor finds a new strategy.

Not so in D&D.

The caveat in D&D is that options are personal and are chosen based on whether the player finds them fun. If players at your table always choose some things then it might be good to explore why and perhaps make a change. It is table dependent.

[Asmotherion]

Instead of thinking of Eldritch Blast as a Cantrip, think of Eldritch Blast as a form of Unique Ranged Weapon with no need of Ammunition. Mechanically, in the game, that's how it functions, more or less.

It can be "upgraded" via Invocations as a counterpart to a Fighter's Fighting Styles and Weapon Specialisation Feats. It even gets new attacks at similar levels as a Fighter would gain Extra Attacks (instead of more damage to it's base damage, like other cantrips).

Now, think about it under a new perspective: Does everyone Dip 2 levels of Warlock just to Grab Agonising Blast? If so, it might be a theme for your Party, and just roll with it. In any case, the average party does not do that in my knowlage. I've seen much more Wizards, Druids and Paladins overplayed than Warlock(s) Dips.

On the other hand, if Eldritch Blast is the Default Cantrip everyone grabs with Magic Initiate, it's not as "broken" as it seems. It has it's Advantage of rolling twice for damage, but this also means that you may fail one of the rolls, dealing half damage. Force is an all arounder, but so is Necrotic (Chill Touch/Toll the Dead) and Radiant (Sacred Flame), as well as Magical Bludgeoning (Shillelagh/Magic Stone).

Overall, unless you dip 2 levels to upgrade your Eldritch Blast to Agonising Blast (And Grab Hex along the Way), there's nothing Extreme about it, other than the Types it covers.

Remove Eldritch Blast from the Game, and you take away the Warlock's Favorite Toy. Not cool.

[Man_Over_Game]

Instead of thinking of Eldritch Blast as a Cantrip, think of Eldritch Blast as a form of Unique Ranged Weapon with no need of Ammunition. Mechanically, in the game, that's how it functions, more or less.

It can be "upgraded" via Invocations as a counterpart to a Fighter's Fighting Styles and Weapon Specialisation Feats. It even gets new attacks at similar levels as a Fighter would gain Extra Attacks (instead of more damage to it's base damage, like other cantrips).

Now, think about it under a new perspective: Does everyone Dip 2 levels of Warlock just to Grab Agonising Blast? If so, it might be a theme for your Party, and just roll with it. In any case, the average party does not do that in my knowlage. I've seen much more Wizards, Druids and Paladins overplayed than Warlock(s) Dips.

On the other hand, if Eldritch Blast is the Default Cantrip everyone grabs with Magic Initiate, it's not as "broken" as it seems. It has it's Advantage of rolling twice for damage, but this also means that you may fail one of the rolls, dealing half damage. Force is an all arounder, but so is Necrotic (Chill Touch/Toll the Dead) and Radiant (Sacred Flame), as well as Magical Bludgeoning (Shillelagh/Magic Stone).

Overall, unless you dip 2 levels to upgrade your Eldritch Blast to Agonising Blast (And Grab Hex along the Way), there's nothing Extreme about it, other than the Types it covers.

Remove Eldritch Blast from the Game, and you take away the Warlock's Favorite Toy. Not cool.

Sorry if I made that confusing, the wording was a little bit off and it gave the wrong idea. THe way it was written, it sounded like I intended of removing the example cantrips from being available, but I simply meant the number of cantrips you start that caster with is decreased by 1 when multiclassing into it, but not focused to any specific caster.

[Blood of Gaea]

I mean, it will still be an optimal choice, you're players are just not going to be picking flavor options like prestidigitation anymore.

So you're removing mostly fluff abilities from the players, good job I guess?

[Sindeloke]

I mean, it will still be an optimal choice, you're players are just not going to be picking flavor options like prestidigitation anymore.

So you're removing mostly fluff abilities from the players, good job I guess?

Do optimization-inclined players pick those anyway? Or are they just getting two damage types and a strong buff or illusion?

If I were to implement this I'd actually go so far as to define that, in fact - group cantrips into categories (damage, damage/utility, utility/flavor, whatever) and say that only two of your three starting cantrips can be from the same category. And then if you multiclass, you only get two which must both be from different categories. Enforce the mechanical penalty so it can't be traded for flavor.

[Alderic78]

Eldritch Blast should have been a Warlock class ability and not a Cantrip.
Which would also solve the issue of dipping warlock to get it, since it would scale with warlock level.
All fixed :)

[Sigreid]

The flaw is the assumption that collective wisdom is correct. I used to play Star Wars Galaxies and for a while it was taken for granted that melee characters were useless in PVP. Then someone put some effort into their melee focused character and in short order using a melee character in pvp was practically considered cheating.

[Snowbluff]

Eldritch Blast should have been a Warlock class ability and not a Cantrip.
Which would also solve the issue of dipping warlock to get it, since it would scale with warlock level.
All fixed :)


Warlock would become monk levels of unplayable then.

[Vogie]

Warlock would become monk levels of unplayable then.

Hardly.

Blast locks are mostly just locks

Lockadins are just in for the Hex Warrior SADness

Coffeelocks would still be going to town

The only real change is that SorLocks would make sure they pick Warlock for their first level instead of Sorcerer (usually for the save profs), and non-hexblade bladelocks won't be able to both a) start with a single level in fighter for heavy armor prof and b) have the most powerful cantrip in the game... which is fine, because they're bladelocks, and hardly ever use it.

[PeteNutButter]

I see this as a big change to affect a minor problem (if there even is one).

You reference that starting as a martial class is “overpowered” because it is a superior option. Let’s address why that is.

Level 1 PCs are inherently fragile. Martial characters are less fragile than casters. So it stands to reason that any PC would take their martial levels first if they planned to take any martial levels.

If you are starting at higher level then the only concerns are armor proficiencies and saves. Paladin and Fighter are the only ones that get heavy armor at level 1(and only at character level 1).

Paladin is most commonly MCed with sorcerer (who get con saves!) so there is a clear trade off there. I’ve seen medium armor paladorcs and they do quite well.

That brings you to Fighter. Fighter is by far the class best suited to take a first level in. Con saves are even better when mixed with a casting stat, heavy armor, and the only way you’d get more HP is Barbarian.

You can easily fix some of this problem by just allowing you to gain heavy armor when MCing into fighter. But for any character that starts at level one, if they plan on wearing heavy armor they pretty much have to start with a heavy armor class since they most likely will lack the dex to have any survivable AC without it.

So, all said and done your proposed change wouldn’t make people stop taking fighter at first level, it’ll just nerd those that do.

Lastly I’d point out there is an obvious opportunity cost to starting in fighter when compared to a straight caster. The straight caster will always be ahead on spells and slots. It’s just when tossing in the fighter levels that taking them at first level becomes an auto-choice. From that perspective it’s solidly balanced like your frostbite example.

[Nifft]

Warlock would become monk levels of unplayable then.

Monk is awesome and very playable so ... I guess you're technically correct? But in the opposite direction than you'd intended.

[Malifice]

I was looking at the multiclassing trends, and a lot of people go Fighter or some other martial class, usually because of the Armor proficiencies.

My philosophy on this is that:


Something is underpowered if, when given a choice, the option is almost never chosen. (Control Flames)
Something is overpowered if, when given a choice, the option is almost always chosen. (Eldritch Blast)
Something is balanced if, when given a choice, is chosen because of circumstantial reasons. (Frostbite)


And in this instance, when Multiclassing is considered, starting as a martial class is considered overpowered if only because it's the only viable option.

To counter this, I was thinking, what if one of the initial cantrips of main casters was considered a "starting proficiency", meaning it's something you don't get post level 1.



Would this incentivize players to stick to a caster at level 1, to diversify multiclass builds?

What's your opinion?

Some things (Eldritch blast) are intentionally overpowered.

[Snowbluff]

Hardly.

Blast locks are mostly just locks

Lockadins are just in for the Hex Warrior SADness

Coffeelocks would still be going to town

The only real change is that SorLocks would make sure they pick Warlock for their first level instead of Sorcerer (usually for the save profs), and non-hexblade bladelocks won't be able to both a) start with a single level in fighter for heavy armor prof and b) have the most powerful cantrip in the game... which is fine, because they're bladelocks, and hardly ever use it.
This is a fair point, but EB is very valuable in all of these case.
Paladins are quite poor ranged fighters (and I question the merit of Cha-SADness when you need 15 Str anyway for armor).
I find sorcerers kinda suck when not expending spell slots. EB gives them a good filler action as well as strong DPS combos.
I don't find Warlocks themselves enjoyable to play, especially given how variable resting can be from table to table.

Monk is awesome and very playable so ... I guess you're technically correct? But in the opposite direction than you'd intended.

1) You don't play a monk. A monk plays you.
2) It relies on a specific attrition model not represented consistently in written material.
3) Monk Multiclasses poorly.

Finally, not really a point, but it sucks on principle, regardless of the content of the mechanics.

[Pex]

Why should it bother you as a DM how a player chooses to make his character to want to force him to make his character your way instead of his way?

[bid]

Something is overpowered if, when given a choice, the option is almost always chosen. (Eldritch Blast)



Eldritch Blast should have been a Warlock class ability and not a Cantrip.
Which would also solve the issue of dipping warlock to get it, since it would scale with warlock level.
All fixed :)
EB is far from being an issue. A naked 1d10 is no better than 1d8 with a rider.

AB is the thing that should scale with warlock level.

[Alderic78]

EB is far from being an issue. A naked 1d10 is no better than 1d8 with a rider.

AB is the thing that should scale with warlock level.

With EB scaling with warlock level, AB would too :)

[Alderic78]

Warlock would become monk levels of unplayable then.

I really don't understand what you mean.

[Anymage]

You can easily fix some of this problem by just allowing you to gain heavy armor when MCing into fighter.

I was just about to say this.

Taking Fighter as your first level does three things. It gives you two whole hit points more than you'd take if you took Fighter as one of your later levels, locks you into fighter save and skill proficiencies instead of those for the caster class, and allows you to wear heavy armor. If being an armored caster isn't OP, and I haven't seen it being that way, then you have a silly problem instead of a balance problem.

And if the result of interactions isn't overpowered but does wind up being silly, I'm inclined to look for ways to allow the same mechanical effect without the silliness. In this case, just allow the heavy armor proficiency to be gained upon multiclassing, and the issue should resolve itself.

[jas61292]

This is just anecdotal, but in my experience, the best deterrent to the fighter multiclass actually is starting at level 1. It's one thing to say "of course my first level was fighter." It's a completely different thing to actually have to play a level one fighter who was clearly designed to be a wizard.

And while level 1 is best for this, in general, the lower the starting level, the less I see it, as being behind on spells hurts far more early on, and having the armor proficiency before you can afford good armor is not nearly as attractive.

[Tanarii]

If being an armored caster isn't OP, and I haven't seen it being that way, then you have a silly problem instead of a balance problem.its hugely OP if you start at level 1, for an otherwise unarmored caster. There's a reason Fighter dips are so common in AL. You advance to level 2 blindingly fast and start your caster career, and often you've reduced your incoming damage by 1/3 to 1/2. Not to mention you can dump Dex, freeing up points for other ability scores.

It's when you get into T2 and XP slows you down to a new level every 3 sessions that being a level behind in casting starts to hurt.

[Snowbluff]

its hugely OP if you start at level 1, for an otherwise unarmored caster. There's a reason Fighter dips are so common in AL. You advance to level 2 blindingly fast and start your caster career, and often you've reduced your incoming damage by 1/3 to 1/2. Not to mention you can dump Dex, freeing up points for other ability scores.

It's when you get into T2 and XP slows you down to a new level every 3 sessions that being a level behind in casting starts to hurt.

I agree that armored casting is really good. Medium armor hits a really good sweet spot if you're into Hexblade dips.
Also, it lets you skip Mage Armor as a spell known/prepared, which is a super nice benefit to sorcerers.

[MaxWilson]

I was looking at the multiclassing trends, and a lot of people go Fighter or some other martial class, usually because of the Armor proficiencies.

My philosophy on this is that:


Something is underpowered if, when given a choice, the option is almost never chosen. (Control Flames)
Something is overpowered if, when given a choice, the option is almost always chosen. (Eldritch Blast)
Something is balanced if, when given a choice, is chosen because of circumstantial reasons. (Frostbite)


And in this instance, when Multiclassing is considered, starting as a martial class is considered overpowered if only because it's the only viable option.

To counter this, I was thinking, what if one of the initial cantrips of main casters was considered a "starting proficiency", meaning it's something you don't get post level 1.

Would this incentivize players to stick to a caster at level 1, to diversify multiclass builds?

What's your opinion?

I think it would not really help. Even if your players are hungry for cantrips, they might just wind up making a lot of Cleric 1/Wizard hybrids instead of Fighter/Wizard. Today they are similarly attractive (Fighter/Wizard is less MAD and has Con save proficiency instead of Wisdom; Cleric 1 can be taken at any time and does not disrupt spell slot progression) with maybe a slight edge to Cleric, but this change would gimp Fighter/Wizard while making Cleric/Wizard's cantrips scarcer and perhaps more valuable.