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Protato
2018-08-29, 02:51 PM
I'm curious as how one might build a character to be similar to a Red Mage from Final Fantasy. For those that don't know, a Red Mage is basically a mixture of a warrior, healer/supporter, debuffer/blaster, and a bit of skillmonkey. In 5e, I have an idea for how to build the character I have in mind. I use a Valor Bard with a level in Sorcerer (any kind will work really) for the fire/ice/lightning Cantrips, and Swashbuckler Rogue for the disengaging in 5e to represent this build. While it doesn't need to be an exact mechanical translation, I would like to have something similar in PF. To be specific for those that don't know how 5e works, my build idea is basically a Bard with a focus on rapiers in melee, ranged fire/ice/electric spells for blasting, ideally that can be used at-will or almost at-will, and a variety of buffing/healing/debuffing abilities (which Bards already have plenty of). Furthermore, I'd like advice on Feats and magic items as I know those are more prevalent in PF than 5e. Finally, there's archetypes, and from my understanding they replace class features and I'm wondering what might be a good archetype for my character concept, if there is any. I imagine I can find flaws and traits for my character background on my own though.

QuadraticGish
2018-08-29, 02:56 PM
I have two important questions: How much experience do you have with Pathfinder? What kind of books/material are allowed for what you want to do?

Protato
2018-08-29, 03:04 PM
I have zero PF experience and no DM at the moment but a friend of mine is looking to get into Pathfinder.

OgresAreCute
2018-08-29, 03:16 PM
Have you looked at the Magus? It's a melee guy/spellcaster with some debuffs and other tasty treats.

grarrrg
2018-08-29, 03:18 PM
Bard is a solid place to start in PF as well.
Good skills, decent chassis, wide enough spell selection, and PLENTY of Archetypes to choose from.

QuadraticGish
2018-08-29, 03:22 PM
I have zero PF experience and no DM at the moment but a friend of mine is looking to get into Pathfinder.

Ah. To answer your question, it would be somewhat difficult to do so. The big difference in coming in from 5E to PF is that cantrips don't provide meaningful damage over the long run so more meaningful spells are typically in your leveled slots. Another important differentiation is that spell slots and cantrips do not stack. So for example, a Sorcerer 1/Bard 1 will have a potentially different set of cantrips and spells for each class.
EDIT: Magus does the spell/sword shtick really well though. You can channel damaging spells into your weapon right from first level if that's up your alley.

JeenLeen
2018-08-29, 03:25 PM
Bard is probably your best bet.
I think the hardest thing, mechanically, is to get healing with elemental damage. Healing is generally just divine casters, and elemental damage arcane. Bard can do give healing with an arcane caster. Druid or some clerics might do the trick, if you don't mind refluffing how they get their magic. Maybe a druid with an archetype that trades away shapeshifting for something else?

There's probably some tricky multiclassing or options that could help achieve this, but for you and your DM getting to know the system, I'd recommend bard. (And, to note, I don't know the tricky multiclassing. Been a while since I've looked at Pathfinder in-depth.)

Protato
2018-08-29, 03:31 PM
Ah. To answer your question, it would be somewhat difficult to do so. The big difference in coming in from 5E to PF is that cantrips don't provide meaningful damage over the long run so more meaningful spells are typically in your leveled slots. Another important differentiation is that spell slots and cantrips do not stack. So for example, a Sorcerer 1/Bard 1 will have a potentially different set of cantrips and spells for each class.
EDIT: Magus does the spell/sword shtick really well though. You can channel damaging spells into your weapon right from first level if that's up your alley.

Outside of Acid Splash or Jolt I don't think I've seen any damage Cantrips really, but that's alright, I'm fine with having to use levelled spells, or if I get a DM that allows homebrew I'd be willing to make some basic fire/ice/lightning attacks, or if I could take Acid Splash or Jolt and reflavor the damage or something. Mostly, it's an aesthetic consideration. As for going Magus, I've got a few decent ideas for Magus characters, but for flavor's sake I'd like to go with a Bard for my first build. He's a somewhat flamboyant human named Erik and he wields an ancestral rapier named Lunarian (can be the trait Ancestral Weapon if allowed or just for flavor), along with basic magic and a lot of charisma. He's a nobleman that was exiled from his homeland for being a bastard rather than "pure", and wishes to one day return after making a name for himself as a skilled mercenary. I have artwork of him, drawn by Gibbleking and colored in the program paintschainer. It's put in the spoiler below.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/478413618585534465/484460587779096598/ErikColorizedWhiteBG.png

Eldariel
2018-08-29, 03:48 PM
Bard is basically the D&D predecessor of Red Mage and right there, so it's not bad. It casts arcane spells but gets stuff from both lists and also has decent combat prowess and good skills. That said, Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge can also fight decently thanks to Wizard and Cleric buffs and has the archetypal casting from both lists as separate entities. You could further optimise it a bit by going Wizard 2/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 10 (guide to early entry SLAs here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZFnvgbhjMibHJRft0dl_4gbcMw0-dAMUFYFlsyS7d60/edit?pli=1))/X 7. You could also go Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer instead of Wizard to cast everything off Wis, making the build a bit easier to manage. But your combat prowess would mostly come from spells anyways, and you wouldn't that easily get the typical Red Mage martial weapon proficiencies. On the flipside, your casting would be much better than the typical Red Mage (almost full from both sides).

EDIT: Oh yeah, they errata'd SLA qualification away. Ah well.

mistermysterio
2018-08-29, 03:59 PM
since you don't have a DM yet, maybe look at the Path of War stuff.

Guides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?380631-All-the-Path-of-War-Guides-in-One-Place!)

An initiator, perhaps mystic or warlord, with Elemental Flux, Scarlet Throne, and Silver Crane disciplines would probably work pretty well.

Elemental Flux gives you all the arcane blasting combined with your sword styles

Scarlet Throne gives you a 1-handed style pretty similar to red mage

Silver Crane gives you healing maneuvers.

*shrug*

Eldonauran
2018-08-29, 05:08 PM
Mechanically? I would say that the Shaman class would be a fairly good chassis to start with, modified by whatever archetype you think appropriate. Whether or not you use the normal multiclass options or the variant options, you can always dip to pick up interesting abilities. Your choice of Spirits will heavily impact your spell choices, and you can change one of those everyday to fill the role you need.

Dr_Dinosaur
2018-08-29, 05:15 PM
Honestly the trick is how hard it is to build a competent character in PF that can blast and fight with equal competance. Usually you get one or the other, plus healing sometimes.

If 3pp is allowed, I suggest showing your DM Spheres of Power by Drop Dead Studios and playing a Mageknight or Mystic archetype Magus. If not, Oracle can pull this off well enough with the right Mystery

noob
2018-08-29, 06:18 PM
Straight cleric.
Fights but less well than a fighter.
Casts healing and blasting spells and also buff spells and summoning spells.
Unless you meant red mage as meaning those mages of thay who wear red clothes and do circle magic.

Buufreak
2018-08-29, 07:00 PM
My thought on the matter would require a bit of 3.PF magic. I was thinking bard/magus/ultimate magus, the latter being a 3.5 prestige class that progresses a prepared and spontaneous casting class at the same time. So you would have the basics of melee combat from the bab, weapon proficiencies, and either light or mid armor from your base classes, and the rest is shoring up your spellcasting abilities as well as gaining some decent class features.

Ninjaxenomorph
2018-08-29, 07:31 PM
The 'red mage' idea does not apply very well to Pathfinder; the red mage is a master of none, able to fight, heal, and blast, but never as good as anyone else. In Pathfinder, generally characters will specialize with a certain thing; whether they are good or bad at that, and how useful they are outside of their circumstance, leads to where people generally rank classes in usefulness. A red mage in the system, outside of a totally new class or subsystem, is pretty hard to get without lagging behind and not being able to keep up with the rest of the (specialized) party.

But, I am going to try to assist you best I can. It's easy to get healing/blasting along with martial prowess. However, as others stated, its hard to get healing and elemental damage in the same character... but it IS possible. But it's even harder to get all three of those. However, party support is very easy to fit in any spellcaster build.

I'm going to put forward the Occultist. Martial weapons and medium armor, a mostly arcane spell list, but with psychic casting, as well as an assortment of weird powers, many of which are BETTER than spells. They aren't great at healing, but are awesome at Use Magic Device. Find, buy, or beg for scrolls and wands of healing magic (wands are cheaper, but you should be able to afford a few scrolls of heavy-hitting healing for a pinch. It also helps with your other roles; just be sure to pack a way to quickly draw scrolls, and make sure you are prepared to cast the scroll when you need to.

Eldonauran
2018-08-29, 08:37 PM
Expanding on my suggestion earlier, I'd suggest a Half-elf Shaman (Witch-doctor) with the Battle Spirit, Waves wandering spirit, the Crashing Waves Hex, Benthic Spell (Metamagic feat), Magical Lineage (Pale Flame), and perhaps the Magus variant Multiclass option.

Shaman because of the 3/4 bab, full casting, and decent spell list (includes your fire/lightning/etc spells), in addition to the options to pick up debuff options (Hexes) like misfortune & evil eye.
Witch doctor allows for a pool of Channel Energy and options for dealing with curses, dispel magic, etc.
Half-elf for the favored class goodies, like picking a cleric spell, extending the reach of a Hex, etc.
Battle Spirit for melee options, including buffs for the party, and weapon focuses for you.
Waves Spirit for the ability to knock people down with your elemental spells (and bonus caster levels).
Benthic Spell to turn your elemental spells into the water type (though not changing the damage unless you want bludgeoning) to take advantage of Crashing Waves.
Magus VMC to offer further combat capability and the eventual ability to channel touch spells through your weapon, if needed. Not to mention the potential for parry & riposte, or all touch attack with weapon.

My suggestion on feats is Benthic Spell and Extra Hex, Extra Hex, Extra Hex, etc, etc.

You don't even need to invest in strength if you want to be effective. Ranged touch attacks are your go to focus, though with weapon finesse you can easily take a place in combat. You do have VERY nice buffs spells on your list.

EldritchWeaver
2018-08-30, 02:27 AM
Outside of Acid Splash or Jolt I don't think I've seen any damage Cantrips really, but that's alright, I'm fine with having to use levelled spells, or if I get a DM that allows homebrew I'd be willing to make some basic fire/ice/lightning attacks, or if I could take Acid Splash or Jolt and reflavor the damage or something.

Just pointing out, if your GM is allowing homebrew, then there is also 3PP stuff which might be of interest to you. In particular Spheres of Power (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/) does provide scaling damage by default and characters can access all spheres in theory, so you are quite flexible in what you can choose. It provides various conversions for existing Paizo classes as well. But this is a bigger investment and might be too much for a first game.

Ellrin
2018-08-30, 03:03 AM
I'll be honest, I don't know the class very well, but I think Skald might fit pretty well. Spell Kenning will get you those blast spells that are a bit rarer on the bard list, and rage powers will let you punch above bardweight in melee.

Florian
2018-08-30, 03:35 AM
Red Mage, as in the old FF games? Then I´d second a more generalist Occultist build, with evocation for blasting, conjuration for healing, necromancy for debuffing, abjuration and transmutation to go into melee.

Kurald Galain
2018-08-30, 03:44 AM
As for going Magus, I've got a few decent ideas for Magus characters, but for flavor's sake I'd like to go with a Bard for my first build. He's a somewhat flamboyant human named Erik and he wields an ancestral rapier named Lunarian (can be the trait Ancestral Weapon if allowed or just for flavor), along with basic magic and a lot of charisma.
Just to throw an option out there, why not do both? There is a charisma-based Magus (the Eldritch Scion) as well as a Magus that gets bard spells (the Puppetmaster) and also a Magus with an ancestral rapier (well, any weapon really) that levels up with him and becomes sentient (the Bladebound). Any of them can use fire/ice/lightning attacks by turning their sword into a flaming/frost/shock weapon as a swift action.

Magus guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus), HTH!

Fizban
2018-08-30, 05:14 AM
There's something very important to remember about jack of all trades characters: they're actually specialized for games where you fight lots of weak enemies, while a lot of groups tend to favor smaller numbers of fights against more powerful enemies.

Think about it. The Red Mage itself comes from Final Fantasy, which is all about grinding hundreds and thousands of trash mobs throughout the game. Red Mages are useful because they give you a little bit more of everything, but they have a lower top end as well. More slots and a better sword arm makes grinding through trash mobs easier, but when it comes to bosses they don't stand out- mostly just taking the pressure off your primary specialists by filling in lower level spells or item activations you'd rather not waste the specialists' turns on.

Even though 5e has made an effort to actually increase the number of fights between rests, and the early modules at least were pretty brutal about it, I still get the feeling that people are running lots of games where endurance simply isn't important (or when it is, the players often don't seem to realize it was hard because they wasted all their slots early). I could be wrong though, since I don't watch a ton of it.

In the 3.x/PF paradigm? Many people take the 3.5 DMG's "average four encounters per day" as an absolute limit, meaning their actual average is far below four. And on top of that, a lot of people like to just "skip" any encounter that they "know" the PCs are going to win without burning many spells, and lots of people never use traps or other skill check barriers/penalties because they don't like them. So the encounters where the Red Mage's supplementary weapon combat (and a lot of the Fighter's primary of course) are important get skipped, and the Red Mage's supplementary (and Rogue's primary) skill spam is skipped, all in favor of a smaller number of encounters against stronger enemies that full spellcasters can just dump their spells on.

The question isn't so much how to build a Red Mage. There are tons of classes and prestige classes and it's one of the simplest concepts to homebrew. The question is whether or not your game will support a Red Mage.

Florian
2018-08-30, 05:27 AM
In the 3.x/PF paradigm? Many people take the 3.5 DMG's "average four encounters per day" as an absolute limit, meaning their actual average is far below four. And on top of that, a lot of people like to just "skip" any encounter that they "know" the PCs are going to win without burning many spells, and lots of people never use traps or other skill check barriers/penalties because they don't like them. So the encounters where the Red Mage's supplementary weapon combat (and a lot of the Fighter's primary of course) are important get skipped, and the Red Mage's supplementary (and Rogue's primary) skill spam is skipped, all in favor of a smaller number of encounters against stronger enemies that full spellcasters can just dump their spells on.

Play a classical dungeon or mega-dungeon and we talk again about the "3.x paradigm".

But, that's a good example why the Occultist is such a well designed class, because it can handle that compromise. In short, you've got a pool of points that you can _invest_ in your passive abilities, like "overcharging" your weapon/armor to a +15 equivalent, or you use the same pool and _spent_ them, possibly going nova, to activate a number of custom enhanced SUs and SLAs, like a double-strength Haste.

Ellrin
2018-08-30, 06:09 AM
Think about it. The Red Mage itself comes from Final Fantasy, which is all about grinding hundreds and thousands of trash mobs throughout the game. Red Mages are useful because they give you a little bit more of everything, but they have a lower top end as well. More slots and a better sword arm makes grinding through trash mobs easier, but when it comes to bosses they don't stand out- mostly just taking the pressure off your primary specialists by filling in lower level spells or item activations you'd rather not waste the specialists' turns on.

Except Final Fantasy uses an MP system, and red mages actually get less MP than white or black mages (in most FF games they appear in, anyway). The main advantage of the red mage is that in FF, you usually have limited "ability" slots, which is what things like "Black Magic," "White Magic," or "Red Magic" fall under. Once you've learned those abilities, you can change class and set one of those abilities in your slots; you can go for breadth and power with black or white magic, or you can go for flexibility with red magic, which actually makes it pretty great for support—if you're not playing a mage (or you're playing a summoner, which uses tons of MP for their spells), you're not going for the high-MP draining super magic, you just want the ability to heal, buff, debuff, and maybe target elemental weaknesses. Because this is Final Fantasy and virtually every monster has an elemental weakness.

Firest Kathon
2018-08-30, 06:16 AM
If you want to get some elemental damage on any character you can take the Eldritch Heritage (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage/) feat with the Elemental sorcerer bloodline (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/elemental-bloodline/). That gives you 1d6+(level-2) energy damage 3+Cha times/day. Works best with Characters that did not dump Cha.

Zaq
2018-08-30, 09:06 AM
I’m all for lively discussion, but what exactly keeps Bard (as has been mentioned several times) from just being the answer? They seem like the textbook Red Mage, honestly. Maybe a tiny bit light in the actual “blasting” department out of the box, but not insurmountably so.

noob
2018-08-30, 09:50 AM
A cleric would fit too.(there is ways to get extra skills points such as high int and some cleric domains add the class skills usually considered as skillmonkey skills)

ezekielraiden
2018-08-30, 09:56 AM
Back in 3.5, I would have recommended weaving in stuff like Abjurant Champion, Virtuoso, Sublime Chord, and (if needed) Eldritch Knight. "Fighting" basically just means good BAB and a martial (or exotic) weapon, which isn't that hard to do. Sublime Chord favors Arcane over Divine magic and thus gets you more Black mage than a proper RDM, but getting more than 6th level spells is kinda important.

Overall, I have to agree with the previous posters. What you want is possible, but only with caveats. Red mage is an archetype D&D usually doesn't support well.

mistermysterio
2018-08-30, 10:09 AM
Still say go with Path of War Mystic.

DSP (accepted at a lot of tables)... 3/4 BaB, starts with elemental flux (which covers your arcane needs)... you can pick up scarlet throne and silver crane via martial traditions.

With this, you have a very competent martial character who utilizes a 1-handed weapon (often a rapier) and matches it up with arcane attack-related maneuvers and/or healing maneuvers.

mystic guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sCIm2NOaSgY5hM1fFaBqlMaCerLeyBq0UPonK9fTiY8/edit)

discipline guides (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k8AO1HL5H-BASvWdx3XsHfyTHHGdb0iBJHmt6cRmj_M/edit)

Florian
2018-08-30, 11:14 AM
I’m all for lively discussion, but what exactly keeps Bard (as has been mentioned several times) from just being the answer? They seem like the textbook Red Mage, honestly. Maybe a tiny bit light in the actual “blasting” department out of the box, but not insurmountably so.

Red Mage is modeled based not the original D&D Bard, which is quite different from the 3.0+ edition Bard. OOTS is actually good for this, for once: When Nate tells something about being a FTR/ROG/WIZ (Enchanter), he's right, that is the original Bard.

Ignimortis
2018-08-30, 12:01 PM
To be honest, Magus seems like your best bet for a simple-yet-so-effective Red Mage. Some archetypes that ditch Medium and Heavy Armor are also useful for that feel, you can basically Spellstrike, and I think there might be a way to get healing spells onto your list.

ezekielraiden
2018-08-30, 03:01 PM
The only (simple) way I know to get easy access to healing spells as a Magus is to take the 3pp "Magavan" archetype. You just straight-up get the Bard spell list instead of the Magus one, but otherwise do your spell thing exactly the same way. That's a pretty significant step up from a normal Bard, because Magi use spellbooks and can thus know a lot more spells than a Bard can. It does lose Spellstrike, which is unfortunate given what you're looking for, but still pretty useful. Alternatively, the Bard's Arcane Duelist (core) archetype gives many of the benefits of Magus, though of course not all of them.

Kurald Galain
2018-08-30, 04:13 PM
The only (simple) way I know to get easy access to healing spells as a Magus is to take

Puppetmaster first-party archetype, I already mentioned that. Plus the Magus intrinsically already has Infernal Healing on his list, which isn't great in combat but is a pretty good out-of-combat healing spell.

Ninjaxenomorph
2018-08-30, 05:38 PM
Hexcrafters can also take the Healing hex. But Puppetmaster might be a good alternative. You get the skills, support spells, and martial prowess; but you might not like the focus on charm and illusion.

Raxxius
2018-08-31, 05:20 AM
weirdly I was thinking about this (as I just started FF1 again)

I think Arcane Duelist is the closet simple cover of the class compared to the early games Red Mage, while the Magus is a great fun class, casting and hitting things at the same time isn't really what the Red Mage is about. It's a fill in class that does the things other classes can do but don't want to at the moment so that they can unload their big hits.

Arcane Duelist fills this quite well, he can buff, heal, damage. What he can't really do well is blast, but it's worth noting that blasting is a bit rubbish in general.

Taking bard spells is all well and good but some really good bard spells require performance which the magus doesn't get (for example Allegro, which is basically a 2nd level haste).

Red Mages in the early FF games used rapiers/one handed swords, which fits the Bards weapon groups nicely (rapier and longsword) they also used armour and shields, which again fits the Bard better than the Magus, who essentially can't use a shield. Arcane duelists can cast via their sword from level 5 via arcane bond and therefore can use sword and board quite effectively. Damage is a bit low, but arcane strike combined with inspire courage gives you +2 to hit from the get go before stat modifiers, which is comparatively a +4 swing in hit bonus vs the spell combating Magus.

I think the Arcane Duelist is never going to out damage the Magus, but Allego, Virtuoso performance to combine inspire courage and bladethirst, or dance of a hundred cuts and bladethirst, discordant voice feat allows you to pump out respectable damage while buffing those around you.

Blasting will be weak however.

Protato
2018-08-31, 10:34 AM
I just realized, straight Bard, maybe with some multiclassing or feats, could get me melee. But there's blasting. If my build lacks it, might there be a reliable magic item that lets me do decent elemental damage? Also, what's the best way to get finesse, feats or multiclassing into Swashbuckler?

Raxxius
2018-08-31, 12:34 PM
I just realized, straight Bard, maybe with some multiclassing or feats, could get me melee. But there's blasting. If my build lacks it, might there be a reliable magic item that lets me do decent elemental damage? Also, what's the best way to get finesse, feats or multiclassing into Swashbuckler?

I would still recommend Arcane Duelist for a melee bard. Arcane bond will allow you to cast while holding your sword, so you don't need a free hand. Arcane strike is a swift action and it more or less gives you

Wands can mimic a spell up to 4th level and will give you blasting options, wand chambers were 100gp and would slot into weapons and shields, I'm not 100% sure it's Pathfinder though, it might be 3.5, there is a spell called weaponwand which allows you to merge your weapon with a wand for the same effect, it's level 1, get a scroll. If wand chambers are allowed you could I suppose in theory have a weapon wand chamber, buckler wand chamber and hold a wand in your hand for adaptability.

Also I feel Dex is a trap for the melee Bard, aside from the mental aesthetics, the feat cost for finesse and agile weapons doesn't trade off so well as you can get armor (medium at level 10 for the duelist) and a shield and keep dex lower. Just because a rapier can be finessed doesn't mean it has to be.

I'd suggest a lvl 2 ring of wizardry as bladed dash is super useful for battlefield mobility, and your daily spell number is somewhat low.

Protato
2018-08-31, 12:40 PM
Dexterity is good for armor though, and Bards just get Light Armor and non-Tower Shields, so I'm wondering how good my AC is. As for Arcane Duelist, I'll consider it but I like Suggestion. I might take the Arcane Strike Feat either way because Bards apparently don't have many Swift Actions, which I'm guessing is akin to Bonus Actions in 5e.

Raxxius
2018-08-31, 01:32 PM
Dexterity is good for armor though, and Bards just get Light Armor and non-Tower Shields, so I'm wondering how good my AC is. As for Arcane Duelist, I'll consider it but I like Suggestion. I might take the Arcane Strike Feat either way because Bards apparently don't have many Swift Actions, which I'm guessing is akin to Bonus Actions in 5e.

I just don't recommend going melee with a straight bard. The Magus in general go for the scimitar so that they can get dervish dance. It's harder for the bard as you only get simple weapons, so no scimitar as default. Getting dex to damage for the rapier is difficult unless you pay for it (agile) or just give up using a shield (fencing grace). And it's difficult to match the AC of a magical shield with Dex. Also just have a look at what you could do with the extra feats, for example you could take combat expertise and improved feint for move action feints (allowing you to still attack as your standard action).

Mechanically, without arcane bond you will have troubles casting spells with sword and shield in your hands. Archer bards don't have this issue.

You get one standard action, one move action and one swift action per turn. Bards in general do have action economy issues, but if you're trying to hit things I can't think of too many swift actions you'd want to take over arcane strike.

What's your point buy?

Lvl 1 armour will nearly always be a chain vest and buckler.

Fizban
2018-09-01, 04:13 AM
Play a classical dungeon or mega-dungeon and we talk again about the "3.x paradigm".
I've run some WLD and I'd like to run more, but how many people actually play megadungeons? They're brought up as special cases, not the standard, and even then the player directed nature still lets them try to rest whenever they want (which with any amount of fairness in the random encounters, will not somehow result in them fighting even more). Jack of all trades/master of every one I can cram in are probably popular enough in megadungeon threads though, right after unlimited resource builds.


Except Final Fantasy uses an MP system, and red mages actually get less MP than white or black mages (in most FF games they appear in, anyway). The main advantage of the red mage is that in FF, you usually have limited "ability" slots, which is what things like "Black Magic," "White Magic," or "Red Magic" fall under. Once you've learned those abilities, you can change class and set one of those abilities in your slots; you can go for breadth and power with black or white magic, or you can go for flexibility with red magic, which actually makes it pretty great for support—
The first FF games used spell slots, though now that I think about it they did just have fewer rather than a double bill. Your conclusion of support role still agrees. If your whole shtick is light combat and support you're still playing second fiddle to the rest of the party, and if everything is so tough you can't contribute via light combat and lower level spells, you're gonna have a bad time. In FF you can hose a party member for a whole dungeon and the player will still have the rest of the party, but in DnD each player only gets one character.

So before going all in on "Red Mage," figure out what Red Mage means and whether the campaign is going to support it. The same as any other character, but lots of people like to skip that step.

Bruno Carvalho
2018-09-01, 01:13 PM
Why don't you play a ... RED MAGE?

http://www.finalfantasyd20.com/classes/core-classes/red-mage/

Arkain
2018-09-01, 04:10 PM
I think that many of the PF tier 3 classes (magus, bard, inquisitor, investigator etc.) can work as a red mage of sorts with a slightly different focus each. If you're feeling cheesy you can consider playing a samsaran with Mystic Past Life and cherrypick whatever you think is missing from another list and you're probably good to go. Missing some blasting on bard? Take a look at magus or wizard and pick a handful of blasting spells.
Rather than pondering the mechanics though, I'd wager the more interesting question to answer is really the one posed by Fizban.

Ellrin
2018-09-01, 11:33 PM
Investigator makes a great jack-of-all-trades, but has basically zero blasting potential, and I feel like the alchemy mechanic doesn't really match the spellcasting flair we'd look for in a red mage. The questioner (bard spellcasting) or psychic detective (6th level psychic spellcasting) do avoid the latter issue, at least, but there's still not a lot of blasts on either list, and gimps the investigator's combat ability a little (alchemy has some great buffs, and is very good for quick buffing).